Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon

[fendilim]

Aaron Gordon and Isaac are interchangeable. Both defend either SF's or PF's depending on match ups throughout the night.

On the offensive end, because Aaron Gordon plays on-ball a lot more than Isaac, you could say that on that end Gordon plays SF.

Which is actually quite damning.

in what sense?

Gordon is a low-percentage shot creator, which to me is pretty damning. He hasn't improved into a respectable shot creator since his 1st year. He was effective cutting to the basket or coming off screens rather than creating for himself.

[ezzzp]

Which is actually quite damning.

in what sense?

Gordon is a low-percentage shot creator, which to me is pretty damning. He hasn't improved into a respectable shot creator since his 1st year. He was effective cutting to the basket or coming off screens rather than creating for himself.

Oh, I don't disagree with that, he's got a long way to go on that front...my comment was about what determines his position, not whether he's good in that role.

[zaymon]

I love what ATL is doing, but I also love what we have been doing. It's gonna be a fun young rivalry for years to come.

The way I see it is that when they are in their prime:

Fultz = Young
? - Reddish
Gordon = Hunter
Isaac > Collins
Bamba > Fernando

Okeke > Huerter

No homer lol

If Fultz is healthy he is much better fit for us than Young who btw was schooled by DJ. Trae has no chance to be a two way player. Hunter has a long way to go, he will be lucky to reach Aaron level. Right now i would say ?>Reddish

was that the Apr 5 game - Young 22 pts, 6 assts, 7 reb , DJ 13 pts 7 assts, 3 reb
or Mar 17 game - Young 20 pts, 5 assts, 6 reb, DJ 11 pts, 9 assts, 2 reb
or Feb 10 game - Young 13 pts, 7 assts, 5 rebs, DJ 14 pts, 10 assts, 3 reb
or Jan 21 game - Young 21 pts, 6 assts, 3 rebs, DJ 15 pts 4 assts.

where was the schooling at exactly?

And we are calling AG a SF now again? thought he went back to PF 2 years ago after the failed SF experiment.

Watch on YouTube

It was more wink-wink "schooled" but we sweeped the games vs Hawks Young stats were empty

[Ducklett]

I think you can see a team's strategy, in this case the Magic, and understand what they are doing, but don't think its good enough to win a championship. How many teams in the last 19 years have won a championship without a superstar talent? 1? I think its fair to critic management's plan of continuing, year after year, to go forward without finding the face of the franchise.

You don't know the future, so you do not know that their strategy can or can't work; and you certainly don't know if they will be able to acquire a franchise player in the future.

This FO already built or played key role in building an NBA champion and a contender (Milwaukee and Toronto) using this exact same strategy. So if anything their history should point you to the opposite assumption.

WelHam have only been in place two seasons, so I don't know where you are getting at that its year after year. This FO is not a continuation of the 5 year Rob Hennigan tank disaster...their philosophy is the opposite of that ridiculous strategy that destroyed this franchise.

Well, since none of us know the future, we can't have opinions on anything. You heard it here first. Ezzzp just shut the RealGM boards down. We can only talk about math because it is the only thing with perfect correct answers. Shut it all down.

For the record, both the teams you cited (Raps/Bucs) have FRANCHISE SUPERSTARS.

[pepe1991]

So there are two PFs in whole league with at least 15 ppg and 60% TS last year.
One is Giannis, and other is Collins..... And there is Isaac, among 60 PFs, ranked as 49th.

But pls tell me more about Isaac having " defined skill" that makes him better than Collins.
Collins rookie year , in terms of efficiency was greater than any Magic rookie ,tracking back all the way to a Shaq rookie year.

Today, Isaac is some crossover of RHJ/Siakam on defense with Mo Harkless/ Kurucs offense.
Picky mediocre spot up shooters who simply don't have basketball skills to handle more offense. On defense he is good, but being good defener and nothing else, on wing is kind a underwhelming.

You might want to pick Isaac over Collins, but that's your personal opinion. Nobody will call you anything for it, but in same time you are also entitled to claim that you would take MCW over Curry.

As for posting videos of 1 player blocking other, or 1 player breaking ankles of another to prove xy is better or xy player is bad player is laughable and something that 8 years old kids do



There is vide of M. Plumlee blocking Lebron, don't @ it's clear that makes M. Plumlee in conversation for GOAT

[fendilim]

If Fultz is healthy he is much better fit for us than Young who btw was schooled by DJ. Trae has no chance to be a two way player. Hunter has a long way to go, he will be lucky to reach Aaron level. Right now i would say ?>Reddish

was that the Apr 5 game - Young 22 pts, 6 assts, 7 reb , DJ 13 pts 7 assts, 3 reb
or Mar 17 game - Young 20 pts, 5 assts, 6 reb, DJ 11 pts, 9 assts, 2 reb
or Feb 10 game - Young 13 pts, 7 assts, 5 rebs, DJ 14 pts, 10 assts, 3 reb
or Jan 21 game - Young 21 pts, 6 assts, 3 rebs, DJ 15 pts 4 assts.

where was the schooling at exactly?

And we are calling AG a SF now again? thought he went back to PF 2 years ago after the failed SF experiment.

Watch on YouTube

It was more wink-wink "schooled" but we sweeped the games vs Hawks Young stats were empty

So it was more of the Magic schooling the Hawks?

[The Effect]

So there are two PFs in whole league with at least 15 ppg and 60% TS last year.
One is Giannis, and other is Collins..... And there is Isaac, among 60 PFs, ranked as 49th.

But pls tell me more about Isaac having " defined skill" that makes him better than Collins.
Collins rookie year , in terms of efficiency was greater than any Magic rookie ,tracking back all the way to a Shaq rookie year.

Today, Isaac is some crossover of RHJ/Siakam on defense with Mo Harkless/ Kurucs offense.
Picky mediocre spot up shooters who simply don't have basketball skills to handle more offense. On defense he is good, but being good defener and nothing else, on wing is kind a underwhelming.

You might want to pick Isaac over Collins, but that's your personal opinion. Nobody will call you anything for it, but in same time you are also entitled to claim that you would take MCW over Curry.

As for posting videos of 1 player blocking other, or 1 player breaking ankles of another to prove xy is better or xy player is bad player is laughable and something that 8 years old kids do



There is vide of M. Plumlee blocking Lebron, don't @ it's clear that makes M. Plumlee in conversation for GOAT

Thank you, at least some here get it
I'll never understand the Isaac hype. The way people talk about him, you'd think he was an all-nba level Superstar on offense and defense, some Durant+kawhi mix, when in reality he's a good (not great) defender and below average offensive player who can't create for himself or really do much on offense besides the occasional spot up or well timed cut, that's literally 95% of his offense

People on this board put such an emphasis on individual defense that they completely ignore anyone's offensive ability if they aren't an elite defender, but this isn't what the NBA is about anymore. Team defense and offensive skills are far more important than being a good one on one defender, yet most on this board are still in the 1980s mindset of building the next bad-boys Pistons defense.

[basketballRob]

So there are two PFs in whole league with at least 15 ppg and 60% TS last year.
One is Giannis, and other is Collins..... And there is Isaac, among 60 PFs, ranked as 49th.

But pls tell me more about Isaac having " defined skill" that makes him better than Collins.
Collins rookie year , in terms of efficiency was greater than any Magic rookie ,tracking back all the way to a Shaq rookie year.

Today, Isaac is some crossover of RHJ/Siakam on defense with Mo Harkless/ Kurucs offense.
Picky mediocre spot up shooters who simply don't have basketball skills to handle more offense. On defense he is good, but being good defener and nothing else, on wing is kind a underwhelming.

You might want to pick Isaac over Collins, but that's your personal opinion. Nobody will call you anything for it, but in same time you are also entitled to claim that you would take MCW over Curry.

As for posting videos of 1 player blocking other, or 1 player breaking ankles of another to prove xy is better or xy player is bad player is laughable and something that 8 years old kids do



There is vide of M. Plumlee blocking Lebron, don't @ it's clear that makes M. Plumlee in conversation for GOAT

Well obviously Isaac wouldn't get 15 pts per game with zero plays ran for him.

I still doubt most GM's would take Collins over Isaac.

Jabari Parker was close 587 ts with 15ppg.

[jayrehme]

So there are two PFs in whole league with at least 15 ppg and 60% TS last year.
One is Giannis, and other is Collins..... And there is Isaac, among 60 PFs, ranked as 49th.

But pls tell me more about Isaac having " defined skill" that makes him better than Collins.
Collins rookie year , in terms of efficiency was greater than any Magic rookie ,tracking back all the way to a Shaq rookie year.

Today, Isaac is some crossover of RHJ/Siakam on defense with Mo Harkless/ Kurucs offense.
Picky mediocre spot up shooters who simply don't have basketball skills to handle more offense. On defense he is good, but being good defener and nothing else, on wing is kind a underwhelming.

You might want to pick Isaac over Collins, but that's your personal opinion. Nobody will call you anything for it, but in same time you are also entitled to claim that you would take MCW over Curry.

As for posting videos of 1 player blocking other, or 1 player breaking ankles of another to prove xy is better or xy player is bad player is laughable and something that 8 years old kids do



There is vide of M. Plumlee blocking Lebron, don't @ it's clear that makes M. Plumlee in conversation for GOAT

Thank you, at least some here get it
I'll never understand the Isaac hype. The way people talk about him, you'd think he was an all-nba level Superstar on offense and defense, some Durant+kawhi mix, when in reality he's a good (not great) defender and below average offensive player who can't create for himself or really do much on offense besides the occasional spot up or well timed cut, that's literally 95% of his offense

People on this board put such an emphasis on individual defense that they completely ignore anyone's offensive ability if they aren't an elite defender, but this isn't what the NBA is about anymore. Team defense and offensive skills are far more important than being a good one on one defender, yet most on this board are still in the 1980s mindset of building the next bad-boys Pistons defense.

Isaac was a gamechanger on defense last year, not just one on one.. but yes, sucked on offense, where he needs to become more confident . Toronto was a team full of good defenders... they seemed to have done alright for themselves.

[ezzzp]

I think you can see a team's strategy, in this case the Magic, and understand what they are doing, but don't think its good enough to win a championship. How many teams in the last 19 years have won a championship without a superstar talent? 1? I think its fair to critic management's plan of continuing, year after year, to go forward without finding the face of the franchise.

You don't know the future, so you do not know that their strategy can or can't work; and you certainly don't know if they will be able to acquire a franchise player in the future.

This FO already built or played key role in building an NBA champion and a contender (Milwaukee and Toronto) using this exact same strategy. So if anything their history should point you to the opposite assumption.

WelHam have only been in place two seasons, so I don't know where you are getting at that its year after year. This FO is not a continuation of the 5 year Rob Hennigan tank disaster...their philosophy is the opposite of that ridiculous strategy that destroyed this franchise.

Well, since none of us know the future, we can't have opinions on anything. You heard it here first. Ezzzp just shut the RealGM boards down. We can only talk about math because it is the only thing with perfect correct answers. Shut it all down.

For the record, both the teams you cited (Raps/Bucs) have FRANCHISE SUPERSTARS.

You dismissed my opinion that the FO is building the team like they did in Toronto and Milwaukee. You inserted yourself into the exchange - not the other way around. Yet here you are whining that nobody can have opinions? LMAO

For the record, both the teams I cited (Raps/Bucs) DID NOT have FRANCHISE SUPERSTARS at one point in their ascendance.

Giannis in his 3d season was a 16pt low efficiency forward who couldn't shoot outside of the restricted area. It wasn't until his 4th season that he took a big step. Toronto didn't acquire Kawhi until last summer.

WelHam + Masai used the same method that the Magic are currently using. They built on a foundation of length, high bbIQ, and team oriented character...all while in a winning context or trying to establish it asap...aka NO tanking.

[ezzzp]

was that the Apr 5 game - Young 22 pts, 6 assts, 7 reb , DJ 13 pts 7 assts, 3 reb
or Mar 17 game - Young 20 pts, 5 assts, 6 reb, DJ 11 pts, 9 assts, 2 reb
or Feb 10 game - Young 13 pts, 7 assts, 5 rebs, DJ 14 pts, 10 assts, 3 reb
or Jan 21 game - Young 21 pts, 6 assts, 3 rebs, DJ 15 pts 4 assts.

where was the schooling at exactly?

And we are calling AG a SF now again? thought he went back to PF 2 years ago after the failed SF experiment.

Watch on YouTube

It was more wink-wink "schooled" but we sweeped the games vs Hawks Young stats were empty

So it was more of the Magic schooling the Hawks?

both really...team defense and efficiency matter, Young wasn't efficient in at least a couple of those games and he and his team are horrific at defense.

[pepe1991]

So there are two PFs in whole league with at least 15 ppg and 60% TS last year.
One is Giannis, and other is Collins..... And there is Isaac, among 60 PFs, ranked as 49th.

But pls tell me more about Isaac having " defined skill" that makes him better than Collins.
Collins rookie year , in terms of efficiency was greater than any Magic rookie ,tracking back all the way to a Shaq rookie year.

Today, Isaac is some crossover of RHJ/Siakam on defense with Mo Harkless/ Kurucs offense.
Picky mediocre spot up shooters who simply don't have basketball skills to handle more offense. On defense he is good, but being good defener and nothing else, on wing is kind a underwhelming.

You might want to pick Isaac over Collins, but that's your personal opinion. Nobody will call you anything for it, but in same time you are also entitled to claim that you would take MCW over Curry.

As for posting videos of 1 player blocking other, or 1 player breaking ankles of another to prove xy is better or xy player is bad player is laughable and something that 8 years old kids do



There is vide of M. Plumlee blocking Lebron, don't @ it's clear that makes M. Plumlee in conversation for GOAT

Well obviously Isaac wouldn't get 15 pts per game with zero plays ran for him.

I still doubt most GM's would take Collins over Isaac.

Jabari Parker was close 587 ts with 15ppg.

Jonathan Isaac during playoffs posted 6,6 ppg on 27,5% FG , not a single three point attemp he took was contested. Non. Gameplan for Raptors was " put 6'1 Lowry on him to rest him or put SIakam on him so Siakam can be help defender without duty to glue to his man".

During season he , much like any other nba player is capable of scoring 13-19 points in single night, but overall he is simply incapable of handling more offense due complete lack of ability to play with ball ,set screens, play as big , post up or play off ball as cutter or pretty much do anything else but make open 3 and dunk putback once in a while.

There is pattern with Isaac that dates back to college, SL, preseason and 2 regular seasons. He has zero ability or mentality to be scorer. Even at college he was third banana.
Your point about running plays for him would make sense if he is not such a horrendus at anything but open spot up 3s and putbacks. On top of that he draws little fouls and has less than 1,0 apg a game.

Simply mediocre offensive player.
I said it once and it rubbed some posters in wrong way, but i still stand by it, if Isaac is 6'4 he would not be nba player.

[PrimeThyme]

So there are two PFs in whole league with at least 15 ppg and 60% TS last year.
One is Giannis, and other is Collins..... And there is Isaac, among 60 PFs, ranked as 49th.

But pls tell me more about Isaac having " defined skill" that makes him better than Collins.
Collins rookie year , in terms of efficiency was greater than any Magic rookie ,tracking back all the way to a Shaq rookie year.

Today, Isaac is some crossover of RHJ/Siakam on defense with Mo Harkless/ Kurucs offense.
Picky mediocre spot up shooters who simply don't have basketball skills to handle more offense. On defense he is good, but being good defener and nothing else, on wing is kind a underwhelming.

You might want to pick Isaac over Collins, but that's your personal opinion. Nobody will call you anything for it, but in same time you are also entitled to claim that you would take MCW over Curry.

As for posting videos of 1 player blocking other, or 1 player breaking ankles of another to prove xy is better or xy player is bad player is laughable and something that 8 years old kids do



There is vide of M. Plumlee blocking Lebron, don't @ it's clear that makes M. Plumlee in conversation for GOAT

I think it would be pretty shortsighted to center your Collins is leagues better than Isaac argument solely around stats. There is no doubt in my mind that Collins numbers are inflated due to him playing on the fastest paced team in the league and Atlanta leading the NBA in possessions last year. We were bottom 5 in both categories. I can't even imagine what a player like AG's numbers would look like playing in a system like that with a PG like Young.

His efficiency numbers are impressive, but not really surprising since the majority of his shots come around the rim. I don't think its really surprising at all that Giannis and Collins would be leading that category since most PF's are asked to stretch the floor and work outside the paint these days while both Giannis/Collins still have primarily an inside game.

I still look at last year as a rookie year for Isaac. He took his lumps at the beginning of the season integrating back into the team after the injury, but I was very impressed with what I saw from him the last half. His stats pretty much shot up in every meaningful category last year including his percentages (outside of 3pt fg% due to taking twice as many 3's but his 81 ft% still gives me confidence that will improve).

Next year is setting up for Isaac to take a jump imo. Obviously, factors like staying healthy and fielding a respectable roster play into it but if they can bring a stop-gap starting guard in or Fultz can come back healthy, I think he will change a lot of opinions next year. We will see though, I fully admit that I could be wrong.

Btw, you aren't actually implying that the gap between Isaac/Collins is as big as the gap between Curry/MCW are you? I question your basketball IQ if you are.

[pepe1991]

So there are two PFs in whole league with at least 15 ppg and 60% TS last year.
One is Giannis, and other is Collins..... And there is Isaac, among 60 PFs, ranked as 49th.

But pls tell me more about Isaac having " defined skill" that makes him better than Collins.
Collins rookie year , in terms of efficiency was greater than any Magic rookie ,tracking back all the way to a Shaq rookie year.

Today, Isaac is some crossover of RHJ/Siakam on defense with Mo Harkless/ Kurucs offense.
Picky mediocre spot up shooters who simply don't have basketball skills to handle more offense. On defense he is good, but being good defener and nothing else, on wing is kind a underwhelming.

You might want to pick Isaac over Collins, but that's your personal opinion. Nobody will call you anything for it, but in same time you are also entitled to claim that you would take MCW over Curry.

As for posting videos of 1 player blocking other, or 1 player breaking ankles of another to prove xy is better or xy player is bad player is laughable and something that 8 years old kids do



There is vide of M. Plumlee blocking Lebron, don't @ it's clear that makes M. Plumlee in conversation for GOAT

I think it would be pretty shortsighted to center your Collins is leagues better than Isaac argument solely around stats. There is no doubt in my mind that Collins numbers are inflated due to him playing on the fastest paced team in the league and Atlanta leading the NBA in possessions last year. We were bottom 5 in both categories. I can't even imagine what a player like AG's numbers would look like playing in a system like that with a PG like Young.

His efficiency numbers are impressive, but not really surprising since the majority of his shots come around the rim. I don't think its really surprising at all that Giannis and Collins would be leading that category since most PF's are asked to stretch the floor and work outside the paint these days while both Giannis/Collins still have primarily an inside game.

I still look at last year as a rookie year for Isaac. He took his lumps at the beginning of the season integrating back into the team after the injury, but I was very impressed with what I saw from him the last half. His stats pretty much shot up in every meaningful category last year including his percentages (outside of 3pt fg% due to taking twice as many 3's but his 81 ft% still gives me confidence that will improve).

Next year is setting up for Isaac to take a jump imo. Obviously, factors like staying healthy and fielding a respectable roster play into it but if they can bring a stop-gap starting guard in or Fultz can come back healthy, I think he will change a lot of opinions next year. We will see though, I fully admit that I could be wrong.

Btw, you aren't actually implying that the gap between Isaac/Collins is as big as the gap between Curry/MCW are you? I question your basketball IQ if you are.

Orlando Magic pace in 2017-18 : 98,63
Atlanta Hawks Pace in 2017-18: 98,85
Orlando Magic Pace in 2018-19: 98,69
So pace myth debunked.

Yet , during his rookie year : 24,5 mpg , 10,5 ppg, 7,3 rpg, 1,3 apg, 57,6% FG, 34% for 3 ( granted only 47 attemps), 2,5 FTA, 59% eFG, 62% TS--- on 7,4 FGA

Isaac during second year: 26,5 mpg, 9,6 ppg, 5,5 rpg, 1,1 apg, 42,9% FG, 32% for 3, 1,8 FTA, 49,9% eFG, 53,7% TS--- on 8,1 FGA




Isaac did literally every single thing worst but blocks and steals and even that, in per 36 min is different by less than 0,3 per game game.

So what are we talking about other than complete lack of objectivity to admit John Collins during his rookie year was already better player than Jonathan Isaac in his second year ?

You can look at next 5 years as rookie years, that's subjective opinion.

Some of people still wait Gordon to make a leap, so i'm got used to this typical summer overhype. Next year is breakout year, i swear...

Look, i don't have burning desire to defend Hawks as team or Collins. I find Young overhyped, but i think Collins is one of better young PFs out there and he flys under a radar because he is with Hawks. The fact stands, guy is already 20-10 guy, yet to turn 22. You can deflact that fact by "blaming" pace, but it's normally pace takes away efficiency due too many rushed shots, yet John Collis is 29th most effective NBA basketball player in league of 550 players. Among 28 better than him, 15 are centers who don't shoot 3s. Just goes to show you how effective guy was.

I already posted above, you are entitled to think that MCW is better than Curry, that doesn't make it right ,but opinions are like a.... you know the rest of qoute.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

I’ve figured it all out on the AG bad Isaac issues.

AG is a Henny draft player
Isaac is a WeHam drafted player

It’s another WeHam gets the benefit of drafting Giannis issue vs Henny player/ideology.

[MaxFischer]

Jonathan Isaac during playoffs posted 6,6 ppg on 27,5% FG , not a single three point attemp he took was contested. Non. Gameplan for Raptors was " put 6'1 Lowry on him to rest him or put SIakam on him so Siakam can be help defender without duty to glue to his man".

During season he , much like any other nba player is capable of scoring 13-19 points in single night, but overall he is simply incapable of handling more offense due complete lack of ability to play with ball ,set screens, play as big , post up or play off ball as cutter or pretty much do anything else but make open 3 and dunk putback once in a while.

There is pattern with Isaac that dates back to college, SL, preseason and 2 regular seasons. He has zero ability or mentality to be scorer. Even at college he was third banana.
Your point about running plays for him would make sense if he is not such a horrendus at anything but open spot up 3s and putbacks. On top of that he draws little fouls and has less than 1,0 apg a game.

Simply mediocre offensive player.
I said it once and it rubbed some posters in wrong way, but i still stand by it, if Isaac is 6'4 he would not be nba player.

The problem is that Isaac was not drafted to be an offensive player getting you 20 ppg. People see him as drafted at #6 and assume he should be getting the team lots of points. That is not his game. As you stated above, his offensive game has always been limited, so to get bent out of shape when he struggles offensively just seems silly. He is a complementary piece to the puzzle. I think he will improve offensively and defensively, but he is not a #1 or #2 option on any team. The Magic don't have that player yet. Now if you want to question WeHam for drafting that type of player that high, that is an argument worth having. But Isaac was long, has high character, and has "potential." All things that this FO seems to covet.

[VFX]

So there are two PFs in whole league with at least 15 ppg and 60% TS last year.
One is Giannis, and other is Collins..... And there is Isaac, among 60 PFs, ranked as 49th.

But pls tell me more about Isaac having " defined skill" that makes him better than Collins.
Collins rookie year , in terms of efficiency was greater than any Magic rookie ,tracking back all the way to a Shaq rookie year.

Today, Isaac is some crossover of RHJ/Siakam on defense with Mo Harkless/ Kurucs offense.
Picky mediocre spot up shooters who simply don't have basketball skills to handle more offense. On defense he is good, but being good defener and nothing else, on wing is kind a underwhelming.

You might want to pick Isaac over Collins, but that's your personal opinion. Nobody will call you anything for it, but in same time you are also entitled to claim that you would take MCW over Curry.

As for posting videos of 1 player blocking other, or 1 player breaking ankles of another to prove xy is better or xy player is bad player is laughable and something that 8 years old kids do



There is vide of M. Plumlee blocking Lebron, don't @ it's clear that makes M. Plumlee in conversation for GOAT

I think it would be pretty shortsighted to center your Collins is leagues better than Isaac argument solely around stats. There is no doubt in my mind that Collins numbers are inflated due to him playing on the fastest paced team in the league and Atlanta leading the NBA in possessions last year. We were bottom 5 in both categories. I can't even imagine what a player like AG's numbers would look like playing in a system like that with a PG like Young.

His efficiency numbers are impressive, but not really surprising since the majority of his shots come around the rim. I don't think its really surprising at all that Giannis and Collins would be leading that category since most PF's are asked to stretch the floor and work outside the paint these days while both Giannis/Collins still have primarily an inside game.

I still look at last year as a rookie year for Isaac. He took his lumps at the beginning of the season integrating back into the team after the injury, but I was very impressed with what I saw from him the last half. His stats pretty much shot up in every meaningful category last year including his percentages (outside of 3pt fg% due to taking twice as many 3's but his 81 ft% still gives me confidence that will improve).

Next year is setting up for Isaac to take a jump imo. Obviously, factors like staying healthy and fielding a respectable roster play into it but if they can bring a stop-gap starting guard in or Fultz can come back healthy, I think he will change a lot of opinions next year. We will see though, I fully admit that I could be wrong.

Btw, you aren't actually implying that the gap between Isaac/Collins is as big as the gap between Curry/MCW are you? I question your basketball IQ if you are.

Orlando Magic pace in 2017-18 : 98,63
Atlanta Hawks Pace in 2017-18: 98,85
Orlando Magic Pace in 2018-19: 98,69
So pace myth debunked.

Yet , during his rookie year : 24,5 mpg , 10,5 ppg, 7,3 rpg, 1,3 apg, 57,6% FG, 34% for 3 ( granted only 47 attemps), 2,5 FTA, 59% eFG, 62% TS--- on 7,4 FGA

Isaac during second year: 26,5 mpg, 9,6 ppg, 5,5 rpg, 1,1 apg, 42,9% FG, 32% for 3, 1,8 FTA, 49,9% eFG, 53,7% TS--- on 8,1 FGA




Isaac did literally every single thing worst but blocks and steals and even that, in per 36 min is different by less than 0,3 per game game.

So what are we talking about other than complete lack of objectivity to admit John Collins during his rookie year was already better player than Jonathan Isaac in his second year ?

You can look at next 5 years as rookie years, that's subjective opinion.

Some of people still wait Gordon to make a leap, so i'm got used to this typical summer overhype. Next year is breakout year, i swear...

Look, i don't have burning desire to defend Hawks as team or Collins. I find Young overhyped, but i think Collins is one of better young PFs out there and he flys under a radar because he is with Hawks. The fact stands, guy is already 20-10 guy, yet to turn 22. You can deflact that fact by "blaming" pace, but it's normally pace takes away efficiency due too many rushed shots, yet John Collis is 29th most effective NBA basketball player in league of 550 players. Among 28 better than him, 15 are centers who don't shoot 3s. Just goes to show you how effective guy was.

I already posted above, you are entitled to think that MCW is better than Curry, that doesn't make it right ,but opinions are like a.... you know the rest of qoute.

Here’s the thing you both know is absolutely certain: Isaac and AG would benefit from a legitimate back court with a dynamic point that can actually create offense.

I fluctuate game to game watching both of these guys play and how I feel about them as players. One game great, the next concerning.

They are both good players that could end up being great given the opportunity and roster dynamic. But let’s be honest, Isaac is probably better suited to a half court game taking advantage of mismatches and AG is likely better in a faster paced system in an open court IMO. The most effective rotation last season was subbing Ross in for one of them because they likely can’t/won’t be effective playing next to each other in the foreseeable future. This might change with developing offense, but probably not if utilized in the same system and roster.

Is Isaac polished offensively yet? No. Collins is better offensively and not as proficient as Isaac defensively on all fronts. I still see Isaac as having more potential and versatility in the long run.

A lot of the decisions surrounding the roster are going to predict the future outcome of AG and Isaac. That’s why the questions of retaining Vuc and finding the back court are huge decisions for this organization. It comes down to style of play and highlighting their skill sets to maximize their effectiveness on the court.

[The Effect]

Jonathan Isaac during playoffs posted 6,6 ppg on 27,5% FG , not a single three point attemp he took was contested. Non. Gameplan for Raptors was " put 6'1 Lowry on him to rest him or put SIakam on him so Siakam can be help defender without duty to glue to his man".

During season he , much like any other nba player is capable of scoring 13-19 points in single night, but overall he is simply incapable of handling more offense due complete lack of ability to play with ball ,set screens, play as big , post up or play off ball as cutter or pretty much do anything else but make open 3 and dunk putback once in a while.

There is pattern with Isaac that dates back to college, SL, preseason and 2 regular seasons. He has zero ability or mentality to be scorer. Even at college he was third banana.
Your point about running plays for him would make sense if he is not such a horrendus at anything but open spot up 3s and putbacks. On top of that he draws little fouls and has less than 1,0 apg a game.

Simply mediocre offensive player.
I said it once and it rubbed some posters in wrong way, but i still stand by it, if Isaac is 6'4 he would not be nba player.

The problem is that Isaac was not drafted to be an offensive player getting you 20 ppg. People see him as drafted at #6 and assume he should be getting the team lots of points. That is not his game. As you stated above, his offensive game has always been limited, so to get bent out of shape when he struggles offensively just seems silly. He is a complementary piece to the puzzle. I think he will improve offensively and defensively, but he is not a #1 or #2 option on any team. The Magic don't have that player yet. Now if you want to question WeHam for drafting that type of player that high, that is an argument worth having. But Isaac was long, has high character, and has "potential." All things that this FO seems to covet.

Then he was overdrafted
You dont a one dimensional defensive player 6 overall, those are guys you draft in the 20s\2nd round. thats like saying Nerleans Noel is a great player but miscast by fans because they expect him to be a scorer, or that Frank Ntillikila is being judged unfairly by fans.

If all we cared about was a long defensive player, we should of traded down to 20 and drafted Jarrett Allen or something. Top 10 picks should be focal point guys, not average role players

When you draft a guy that high, you expect him to be more than a one dimensional liability. And judging JI onn what he did inn high school, college and 2 years in the pros, i doubt he ever becomes more than that. I made the comment during the playoffs that Siakam is a best case scenario for isaac and that seemed to be an insult to some magic fans who said he will be better, but really, id be shocked if he ever becomes the offensive player siakam is, he just doesnt have the attitude or skillset for it

[MaxFischer]

Then he was overdrafted
You dont a one dimensional defensive player 6 overall, those are guys you draft in the 20s\2nd round. thats like saying Nerleans Noel is a great player but miscast by fans because they expect him to be a scorer, or that Frank Ntillikila is being judged unfairly by fans.

If all we cared about was a long defensive player, we should of traded down to 20 and drafted Jarrett Allen or something. Top 10 picks should be focal point guys, not average role players

When you draft a guy that high, you expect him to be more than a one dimensional liability. And judging JI onn what he did inn high school, college and 2 years in the pros, i doubt he ever becomes more than that. I made the comment during the playoffs that Siakam is a best case scenario for isaac and that seemed to be an insult to some magic fans who said he will be better, but really, id be shocked if he ever becomes the offensive player siakam is, he just doesnt have the attitude or skillset for it

That might be the case. I think you will see all around improvement personally, but I don't ever see him as #1 / #2 option on offense. I hope I am wrong. Obviously WeHam sees more in him as well. I don't think they drafted him at #6 because he was only defense. But the offensive game is going to take longer to develop if it ever does.

And if you look at that 2017 draft, top 10, Markkanen seems to be having most success offensively. Tatum and Fox show promise.

[ezzzp]

So there are two PFs in whole league with at least 15 ppg and 60% TS last year.
One is Giannis, and other is Collins..... And there is Isaac, among 60 PFs, ranked as 49th.

But pls tell me more about Isaac having " defined skill" that makes him better than Collins.
Collins rookie year , in terms of efficiency was greater than any Magic rookie ,tracking back all the way to a Shaq rookie year.

Today, Isaac is some crossover of RHJ/Siakam on defense with Mo Harkless/ Kurucs offense.
Picky mediocre spot up shooters who simply don't have basketball skills to handle more offense. On defense he is good, but being good defener and nothing else, on wing is kind a underwhelming.

You might want to pick Isaac over Collins, but that's your personal opinion. Nobody will call you anything for it, but in same time you are also entitled to claim that you would take MCW over Curry.

Key difference between Giannis vs Collins is that 51% of the Greek's points are unassisted, meanwhile only 24% of JC's are. Giannis also has 30.3 AST% meanwhile Collins 11.1 AST%.

One player creates his own shot and creates for others on ball. The other player is reliant on others to create shots for him and doesn't create very well for others.

Not a big deal unless your PF is high USG (23.7) like Collins is. As I believe you have mentioned, having PF being one of your high volume offensive players is not ideal unless that player is point forward type. Which he isn't.

Personally I think the ideal PF is an elite 3-D guy with high bbIQ that keeps ball moving and when needed finishes effectively at rim or 3pt.