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Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon

Moderators: Howard Mass, UCF, Knightro, Def Swami, ChosenSavior, UCFJayBird

Should we resign Vuc/Ross

Yes
43
34%
Yes, but just Vuc
9
7%
Yes, but just Ross
51
40%
No
23
18%
 
Total votes: 126

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1861 » by jayrehme » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:15 am

SOUL wrote:
jayrehme wrote:
NavalAviator94 wrote:
That’s the most logical way to look at Atlanta.


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The next Phoenix Suns (a 19-63 team).. remember how good mikal bridges and josh jackson were supposed to be?


Mikal has a decent rookie year. Probably talking about Bender.

Trae and Collins are already better than they ever will be IMO. We'll see if it translates into team success.


I was more comparing them to the players they drafted

Trae - Booker
Collins - Ayton
Hunter - Bridges
Reddish - Jackson

Very similar teams... no successful team has ever built their entire roster through the draft
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1862 » by NavalAviator94 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:20 am

jayrehme wrote:
NavalAviator94 wrote:
SOUL wrote:Atlanta has certainly stockpiled some interesting young talent (kinda like we did before we traded them away). It'll be fun to see how they gel together. Doesn't guarantee anything in the future, but I would be excited as a fan.


That’s the most logical way to look at Atlanta.


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The next Phoenix Suns (a 19-63 team).. remember how good mikal bridges and josh jackson were supposed to be?


That’s certainly possible.


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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1863 » by VFX » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:29 am

jayrehme wrote:
SOUL wrote:
jayrehme wrote:
The next Phoenix Suns (a 19-63 team).. remember how good mikal bridges and josh jackson were supposed to be?


Mikal has a decent rookie year. Probably talking about Bender.

Trae and Collins are already better than they ever will be IMO. We'll see if it translates into team success.


I was more comparing them to the players they drafted

Trae - Booker
Collins - Ayton
Hunter - Bridges
Reddish - Jackson

Very similar teams... no successful team has ever built their entire roster through the draft


Ever?

2015 Warriors

Curry- drafted
Thompson- drafted
Green- drafted
Barnes- drafted

2014 Spurs

Parker - drafted
Ginobli- drafted
Kawhi - drafted
Duncan- drafted

I didn’t even have to go back 5 years to disprove that a starting lineup primarily of drafted players won a championship. Not only that, but these are the core of nba dynasties and not just “successful teams”.

Also, an entire roster? Who is making that claim?

Just because Orlando hasn’t done it doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Also, Orlando has only ever been historically relevant as title contenders because they’ve drafted their star players. Shaq, Penny, Dwight, etc.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1864 » by jayrehme » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:52 am

MagicMatic wrote:
jayrehme wrote:
SOUL wrote:
Mikal has a decent rookie year. Probably talking about Bender.

Trae and Collins are already better than they ever will be IMO. We'll see if it translates into team success.


I was more comparing them to the players they drafted

Trae - Booker
Collins - Ayton
Hunter - Bridges
Reddish - Jackson

Very similar teams... no successful team has ever built their entire roster through the draft


Ever?

2015 Warriors

Curry- drafted
Thompson- drafted
Green- drafted
Barnes- drafted

2014 Spurs

Parker - drafted
Ginobli- drafted
Green- drafted
Kawhi - drafted
Duncan- drafted

I didn’t even have to go back 5 years to disprove that a starting lineup primarily of drafted players won a championship. Not only that, but these are the core of nba dynasties and not just “successful teams”.

Also, an entire roster? Who is making that claim?

Just because Orlando hasn’t done it doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Also, Orlando has only ever been historically relevant title contenders because they’ve drafted their star players. Shaq, Penny, Dwight, etc.


You ONLY posted the players they drafted, and most of them weren't even high draft picks... their roster consisted of a lot more quality and veteran players as well. I still don't understand the Atlanta love. Yes, Orlando drafted STAR players. Atlanta has yet to draft a star player.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1865 » by MoMM » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:54 am

MagicMatic wrote:
jayrehme wrote:
SOUL wrote:
Mikal has a decent rookie year. Probably talking about Bender.

Trae and Collins are already better than they ever will be IMO. We'll see if it translates into team success.


I was more comparing them to the players they drafted

Trae - Booker
Collins - Ayton
Hunter - Bridges
Reddish - Jackson

Very similar teams... no successful team has ever built their entire roster through the draft


Ever?

2015 Warriors

Curry- drafted
Thompson- drafted
Green- drafted
Barnes- drafted

2014 Spurs

Parker - drafted
Ginobli- drafted
Kawhi - drafted
Duncan- drafted

I didn’t even have to go back 5 years to disprove that a starting lineup primarily of drafted players won a championship. Not only that, but these are the core of nba dynasties and not just “successful teams”.

Also, an entire roster? Who is making that claim?

Just because Orlando hasn’t done it doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Also, Orlando has only ever been historically relevant as title contenders because they’ve drafted their star players. Shaq, Penny, Dwight, etc.

We can go back to Orlando: Shaq, Penny, Nick and 3D... Only Ho wasn't originally drafted by our best team ever. The only difference was that all of them were lottery picks (3 were Top 4), however those Spurs and Warriors teams were more based on sleepers.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1866 » by VFX » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:01 am

jayrehme wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
jayrehme wrote:
I was more comparing them to the players they drafted

Trae - Booker
Collins - Ayton
Hunter - Bridges
Reddish - Jackson

Very similar teams... no successful team has ever built their entire roster through the draft


Ever?

2015 Warriors

Curry- drafted
Thompson- drafted
Green- drafted
Barnes- drafted

2014 Spurs

Parker - drafted
Ginobli- drafted
Green- drafted
Kawhi - drafted
Duncan- drafted

I didn’t even have to go back 5 years to disprove that a starting lineup primarily of drafted players won a championship. Not only that, but these are the core of nba dynasties and not just “successful teams”.

Also, an entire roster? Who is making that claim?

Just because Orlando hasn’t done it doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Also, Orlando has only ever been historically relevant title contenders because they’ve drafted their star players. Shaq, Penny, Dwight, etc.


You ONLY posted the players they drafted, and most of them weren't even high draft picks... their roster consisted of a lot more quality and veteran players as well. I still don't understand the Atlanta love. Yes, Orlando drafted STAR players. Atlanta has yet to draft a star player.


I don’t get your argument then. You claim “no successful team has built their roster through the draft” and I give you two multi-championship dynasties with starting lineups built through the draft.... Are you suggesting that your assertion only makes sense without teams making other acquisitions through other avenues? Because if so, that’s kind of a silly statement to make.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1867 » by VFX » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:05 am

MoMM wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
jayrehme wrote:
I was more comparing them to the players they drafted

Trae - Booker
Collins - Ayton
Hunter - Bridges
Reddish - Jackson

Very similar teams... no successful team has ever built their entire roster through the draft


Ever?

2015 Warriors

Curry- drafted
Thompson- drafted
Green- drafted
Barnes- drafted

2014 Spurs

Parker - drafted
Ginobli- drafted
Kawhi - drafted
Duncan- drafted

I didn’t even have to go back 5 years to disprove that a starting lineup primarily of drafted players won a championship. Not only that, but these are the core of nba dynasties and not just “successful teams”.

Also, an entire roster? Who is making that claim?

Just because Orlando hasn’t done it doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Also, Orlando has only ever been historically relevant as title contenders because they’ve drafted their star players. Shaq, Penny, Dwight, etc.

We can go back to Orlando: Shaq, Penny, Nick and 3D... Only Ho wasn't originally drafted by our best team ever. The only difference was that all of them were lottery picks (3 were Top 4), however those Spurs and Warriors teams were more based on sleepers.


Warriors? All lottery picks sans Green. Spurs? Yeah, but all running through a top 10 nba player in history (#1 pick) in Duncan.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1868 » by MoMM » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:06 am

MagicMatic wrote:
MoMM wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Ever?

2015 Warriors

Curry- drafted
Thompson- drafted
Green- drafted
Barnes- drafted

2014 Spurs

Parker - drafted
Ginobli- drafted
Kawhi - drafted
Duncan- drafted

I didn’t even have to go back 5 years to disprove that a starting lineup primarily of drafted players won a championship. Not only that, but these are the core of nba dynasties and not just “successful teams”.

Also, an entire roster? Who is making that claim?

Just because Orlando hasn’t done it doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Also, Orlando has only ever been historically relevant as title contenders because they’ve drafted their star players. Shaq, Penny, Dwight, etc.

We can go back to Orlando: Shaq, Penny, Nick and 3D... Only Ho wasn't originally drafted by our best team ever. The only difference was that all of them were lottery picks (3 were Top 4), however those Spurs and Warriors teams were more based on sleepers.


Warriors? All lottery picks sans Green. Spurs? Yeah, but all running through a top 10 nba player in history (#1 pick) in Duncan.

Sorry, I meant not top picks for the Warriors (highest was Curry at #7, IIRC).
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1869 » by VFX » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:10 am

MoMM wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
MoMM wrote:We can go back to Orlando: Shaq, Penny, Nick and 3D... Only Ho wasn't originally drafted by our best team ever. The only difference was that all of them were lottery picks (3 were Top 4), however those Spurs and Warriors teams were more based on sleepers.


Warriors? All lottery picks sans Green. Spurs? Yeah, but all running through a top 10 nba player in history (#1 pick) in Duncan.

Sorry, I meant not top picks for the Warriors (highest was Curry at #7, IIRC).


The argument isn’t that you need top 5 picks, it’s that you can’t build a successful core roster through the draft. Those rosters disprove that statement.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1870 » by jayrehme » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:12 am

You are nitpicking a single comment, and spinning the conversation towards that. The Hawks have zero star players and a roster full of low ceiling players that some people are getting excited about because they are young. Sure they could become a decent team eventually, but they could also suck.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1871 » by tiderulz » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:57 am

jayrehme wrote:
SOUL wrote:
jayrehme wrote:
The next Phoenix Suns (a 19-63 team).. remember how good mikal bridges and josh jackson were supposed to be?


Mikal has a decent rookie year. Probably talking about Bender.

Trae and Collins are already better than they ever will be IMO. We'll see if it translates into team success.


I was more comparing them to the players they drafted

Trae - Booker
Collins - Ayton
Hunter - Bridges
Reddish - Jackson

Very similar teams... no successful team has ever built their entire roster through the draft

didnt the Spurs build their team thru the draft? i dont think any team has all 12-15 players that were all drafted with no trades, thats just impossible.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1872 » by jayrehme » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:07 am

tiderulz wrote:
jayrehme wrote:
SOUL wrote:
Mikal has a decent rookie year. Probably talking about Bender.

Trae and Collins are already better than they ever will be IMO. We'll see if it translates into team success.


I was more comparing them to the players they drafted

Trae - Booker
Collins - Ayton
Hunter - Bridges
Reddish - Jackson

Very similar teams... no successful team has ever built their entire roster through the draft

didnt the Spurs build their team thru the draft? i dont think any team has all 12-15 players that were all drafted with no trades, thats just impossible.


Tim Duncan was drafted in 1997, Tony Parker in 2001, and Kawhi Leonard in 2011, that's a 14 year span, so actually a very bad example to prove the case of continuing to keep a roster full of young players ... That Magic team was the best example, but it did consist of 2 stars and one of the most dominant players to play the game.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1873 » by Def Swami » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:45 am

Biggest difference between the Hawks and Magic young cores comes down to Trae Young. The Magic have drafted in the lottery for 6 of the last 7 years and never came away with a player that they can build around. The Hawks tanked one season and got Trae Young. Having someone with all-star potential just gives them a higher ceiling.

The most challenging acquisition for any team is the acquisition of a top end talent that has top 20 player in the league potential. Every team is after those guys and if you don't have one, you're basically playing the sidelines of the NBA. We've been scouring for a player of that caliber for years and years. And Young has a ways to go before getting to that level, but it's realistic to see him getting there one day. Same thing just can't be said for anyone on our team based on what we've seen. That's why the Magic went out and spent a lottery ticket on Markelle Fultz. Fultz is the only one on the roster who showed glimpses of being that kind of player, albeit, it was college. But the rest of the young core (Isaac, Gordon, and Bamba) have always been role players though and through.

This is still the biggest obstacle for the Magic's rebuild. They don't have anyone on their roster that has the superstar potential to takeover a game. The Hawks have Trae Young. John Collins is good and excelled in an increased role. The Hawks can add pieces that complement those guys because they know they're good. The Magic don't have that luxury with their young core.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1874 » by tiderulz » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:53 am

jayrehme wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
jayrehme wrote:
I was more comparing them to the players they drafted

Trae - Booker
Collins - Ayton
Hunter - Bridges
Reddish - Jackson

Very similar teams... no successful team has ever built their entire roster through the draft

didnt the Spurs build their team thru the draft? i dont think any team has all 12-15 players that were all drafted with no trades, thats just impossible.


Tim Duncan was drafted in 1997, Tony Parker in 2001, and Kawhi Leonard in 2011, that's a 14 year span, so actually a very bad example to prove the case of continuing to keep a roster full of young players ... That Magic team was the best example, but it did consist of 2 stars and one of the most dominant players to play the game.

Tony Parker, Manu Gibobli, Patty Mills. David Robinson. All their key players to their championships and just success in general were drafted.

you said no "successful team. I think it is a great case as an example.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1875 » by SOUL » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:07 am

Def Swami wrote:Biggest difference between the Hawks and Magic young cores comes down to Trae Young. The Magic have drafted in the lottery for 6 of the last 7 years and never came away with a player that they can build around. The Hawks tanked one season and got Trae Young. Having someone with all-star potential just gives them a higher ceiling.

The most challenging acquisition for any team is the acquisition of a top end talent that has top 20 player in the league potential. Every team is after those guys and if you don't have one, you're basically playing the sidelines of the NBA. We've been scouring for a player of that caliber for years and years. And Young has a ways to go before getting to that level, but it's realistic to see him getting there one day. Same thing just can't be said for anyone on our team based on what we've seen. That's why the Magic went out and spent a lottery ticket on Markelle Fultz. Fultz is the only one on the roster who showed glimpses of being that kind of player, albeit, it was college. But the rest of the young core (Isaac, Gordon, and Bamba) have always been role players though and through.

This is still the biggest obstacle for the Magic's rebuild. They don't have anyone on their roster that has the superstar potential to takeover a game. The Hawks have Trae Young. John Collins is good and excelled in an increased role. The Hawks can add pieces that complement those guys because they know they're good. The Magic don't have that luxury with their young core.


Yeah, I'm not sure why there's some crazy debate about this. The Hawks are two years into their rebuild. It's like judging our team 2 years into our rebuild in which Oladipo was the only one to see any floor time. The Hawks are doing a great job at rebuilding quickly with assets that people value around the league. That much is undeniable. We'll see whether they will need to add more defensive pieces or if Hunter can be that guy for them, but it's a great start.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1876 » by Catledge » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:31 am

SOUL wrote:Yeah, I'm not sure why there's some crazy debate about this. The Hawks are two years into their rebuild. It's like judging our team 2 years into our rebuild in which Oladipo was the only one to see any floor time. The Hawks are doing a great job at rebuilding quickly with assets that people value around the league. That much is undeniable. We'll see whether they will need to add more defensive pieces or if Hunter can be that guy for them, but it's a great start.


Many people are essentially advocating for the clean-house-and-tank approach (except they refuse to call it tanking), and some of those people are holding up the Hawks as en example of how good we could have it. That's why this crazy debate is happening.

As I see it, Trae, Collins, and Hunter do not add up to conclusive evidence that the Hawks have figured something out that the rest of us haven't, and I do not see some obvious reason why we should want to trade rosters with them.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1877 » by SOUL » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:01 am

Catledge wrote:
SOUL wrote:Yeah, I'm not sure why there's some crazy debate about this. The Hawks are two years into their rebuild. It's like judging our team 2 years into our rebuild in which Oladipo was the only one to see any floor time. The Hawks are doing a great job at rebuilding quickly with assets that people value around the league. That much is undeniable. We'll see whether they will need to add more defensive pieces or if Hunter can be that guy for them, but it's a great start.


Many people are essentially advocating for the clean-house-and-tank approach (except they refuse to call it tanking), and some of those people are holding up the Hawks as en example of how good we could have it. That's why this crazy debate is happening.

As I see it, Trae, Collins, and Hunter do not add up to conclusive evidence that the Hawks have figured something out that the rest of us haven't, and I do not see some obvious reason why we should want to trade rosters with them.


Oh yeah, I wouldn't trade our young guys for them (maybe somebody for Trae), but otherwise, they still have a lot to prove as well.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1878 » by pepe1991 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:05 am

ezzzp wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:So there are two PFs in whole league with at least 15 ppg and 60% TS last year.
One is Giannis, and other is Collins..... And there is Isaac, among 60 PFs, ranked as 49th.

But pls tell me more about Isaac having " defined skill" that makes him better than Collins.
Collins rookie year , in terms of efficiency was greater than any Magic rookie ,tracking back all the way to a Shaq rookie year.

Today, Isaac is some crossover of RHJ/Siakam on defense with Mo Harkless/ Kurucs offense.
Picky mediocre spot up shooters who simply don't have basketball skills to handle more offense. On defense he is good, but being good defener and nothing else, on wing is kind a underwhelming.

You might want to pick Isaac over Collins, but that's your personal opinion. Nobody will call you anything for it, but in same time you are also entitled to claim that you would take MCW over Curry.


Key difference between Giannis vs Collins is that 51% of the Greek's points are unassisted, meanwhile only 24% of JC's are. Giannis also has 30.3 AST% meanwhile Collins 11.1 AST%.

One player creates his own shot and creates for others on ball. The other player is reliant on others to create shots for him and doesn't create very well for others.

Not a big deal unless your PF is high USG (23.7) like Collins is. As I believe you have mentioned, having PF being one of your high volume offensive players is not ideal unless that player is point forward type. Which he isn't.

Personally I think the ideal PF is an elite 3-D guy with high bbIQ that keeps ball moving and when needed finishes effectively at rim or 3pt.



23,7% isn't that big of a usage if player plays 30,00 mpg, that' similar usage to Evan, Ross and Gordon, who he smoked in efficiency.

I did say i don't prefer star at PF, but it's not like guy is some selfish prick that ruins your offense. Guy has pretty good shot selection, improved from rookie year a lot, shoots 73% inside 3 feet, total rebounds percentage already higher than Gordon ( or Isaac) ever had. He is pretty good basketball player.

Also you compare him as total package to Giannis, league's MVP , one of best basketball players in the world, where other compare him to Isaac who is pretty much overdrafted as he lacks skills to play two way basketball.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1879 » by GelbeWand09 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:33 am

The Effect wrote:
ezzzp wrote:Atlanta was ranked 28th in the NBA in defense.

Kevin Huerter has 6' 7.5 wingspan and weighs 195 lbs...for comparison, Fournier has a 6'8.25 wingspan and came into the NBA at 205lbs.

How exactly is Kevin Huerter equipped to cover up for Trae Young...a guy who last year was literally the worst defender in the NBA based on Defensive RPM, no. 514 out 514 NBA players LOL.

There is a reason they were horrific on defense.

Cam Reddish has average height/length for a SF 6' 6.5" with 7' 0.5" wingspan and 207 lbs. There is nothing particularly special about his wingspan at forward spot...that's basically most forwards now. Put it this way, Melvyn Frazier has a 7' 1.75" wingspan and Iwundu 7' 1" wingspan...and both play the wing.

How exactly are Young/Heurter/Reddish "complementary" when half the game is played on the defensive end?

SO....7.05ft wingspan and 205lbs for a SF is average?
Welp, might as well cut that sorry ass j. Isaac ad he only has a 7ft wingspan and weights 205 and his wingspan seems to be the saving grace for so many on this board when it comes to WeHams draft philosophy

BTW, our new backup PF that people are so in love with....7ft wingspan.... guess hes gonna be a **** defender too



Nice that you post JI's wingspan, measured before his first College season, when its ovious he's grown big time since :lol:
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1880 » by zaymon » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:41 am


What a miserable conference. If i were Vucevic i would stay away from that organization. He us a millionare why make yourself unhappy ? How much is that worth?
My money is on Banchero going number 1 !

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