2016 Official Speculation Thread: Episode V - The Preseason Strikes Back

[EAS Law]

We should really have a thread for posters that are "fanemies" at this point. It's disgusting.

A ground up rebuild takes a while and you need a lot to go your way in that time.

As recently as maybe a month ago, philly had NOTHING going for them, then Embiid plays a preseason game and everyone loses their minds again.

It can happen just that quickly for us too and I'm going to be equally disgusted at all of you bandwagon "fans" when we start winning games and you all want back in--maybe then you won't be bashing every player on our squad or trying your best to reach for something negative when we see our guys hitting jumpers and playing well.

The poster above you is so bad at posting here and such a negative person that I wonder why he even posts. Most likely to troll and annoy people.

Ya that guy sucks

Well dude, we all get that expectations need to be tempered and that we still might not make the playoffs. Things can always go badly for a team just as easily as they can go well.

You're not the only person that's down on the team, LOTS of our own guys are, and everyone is entitled to their view, but can you really find something truly negative about guys hitting jumpers in a fluff 15 second video?

I'd like to remind everyone here that Vogel was able to take a Pacers team with George Hill and David West to 38 wins and damn near making the playoffs without Paul George or anyone else even near his level of play. I'd like to argue that our team currently is better than that.

Anyway, if the argument isn't about tempering expectations or pointing out that we have specific flaws, I don't really see the rationale in some of the more doom and gloom posts from a lot of fellas here. I think we all get that things could go south, that possibility is always there, but blanket pessimism isn't exactly being objective or realistic.

[Orlwillbeback]

I just think the whole strategy the last four years has been flawed. We essentially tanked and overinvested into getting high draft picks and the guys we got were just decent players, no stars. I think Hennigan had a good idea for the team but he's also gotten a raw end of so many trades that I've lost faith in him.

[EAS Law]

I just think the whole strategy the last four years has been flawed. We essentially tanked and overinvested into getting high draft picks and the guys we got were just decent players, no stars. I think Hennigan had a good idea for the team but he's also gotten a raw end of so many trades that I've lost faith in him.

I can understand that. Let me ask though, which trades did we really get hosed on?

Without question, we did the best of any team involved in the Dwight trade whether or not you like Vuc. Is that fair enough?

Tobias turned into Biyombo

Jeff Green is a one year deal that will allow us to pursue someone else next year at $17m/season

Hennigan turned Afflalo into Fournier. That's at very least a favorable deal, no?

Serge hasn't played a single second of basketball with our team so we will see, but Oladipo wasn't going to be anything more or less with us. He's not a number one guy regardless of how he plays with OKC.

So where did we stumble so badly? Also, how else do you believe we should or could have approached our rebuild?

[Orlwillbeback]

I just think the whole strategy the last four years has been flawed. We essentially tanked and overinvested into getting high draft picks and the guys we got were just decent players, no stars. I think Hennigan had a good idea for the team but he's also gotten a raw end of so many trades that I've lost faith in him.

I can understand that. Let me ask though, which trades did we really get hosed on?

Without question, we did the best of any team involved in the Dwight trade whether or not you like Vuc. Is that fair enough?

Tobias turned into Biyombo

Jeff Green is a one year deal that will allow us to pursue someone else next year at $17m/season

Hennigan turned Afflalo into Fournier. That's at very least a favorable deal, no?

Serge hasn't played a single second of basketball with our team so we will see, but Oladipo wasn't going to be anything more or less with us. He's not a number one guy regardless of how he plays with OKC.

So where did we stumble so badly? Also, how else do you believe we should or could have approached our rebuild?

I think we overpaid in the trade for Payton and for Ibaka.

You could make the argument for the Tobias trade as well but it still isn't that bad IMO because essentially what we did was just divest ourselves from the asset and payment obligations(cap space).

The problem is, we did it the one summer when literally everyone had cap space so there were more competitors for the top players this summer.

The Jodie Meeks deal is fine, we had to spend the money anyway.

Ibaka is a fine player, sure, but he is hardly what I would call a game changing presence. Good shot blocker, has defense accolades but he was younger then and there is debate whether his drop in defensive production is due to Steven Adam's emergence or whether he really was slowing down.

Good spot up shooter on offense and can pump fake and step in and shoot but that's really his only offensive skill. No post game and very little creativity off the dribble.

We gave way too many assets for Payton when in reality we probably should have just drafted Lavine who went right after him in that draft and has been more productive thus far in the league.

Hennigan has this problem of falling in love with certain amorphous ideas of which players fit his vision and deludes himself into thinking a marginal player is better than he really is. Other gms know this and try to take advantage of him.

[Bensational]

Also, how else do you believe we should or could have approached our rebuild?

I'm not down on the team at all, but I do like to dabble in a bit of mulligan GM'ing.

I had players I was a fan of back in prior drafts, but had we picked them we'd be no better off than we are right now, I reckon.

I wanted McCollum over Oladipo. I think that's a bit of a wash, with CJ being more of a reliable scorer, but Oladipo being a much better defender.

I wanted Exum with our #4 pick, but also wanted AG with a trade up from the #12. Sounds like AG would've been gone by that point anyway (Utah were gonna take him #5 apparently), which means we'd be looking at the next option, who was Hood. This is a move I'm glad we didn't make, though, as I love AG.

I wouldn't have had a clue what kind of value we could've landed for Afflalo other than Fournier, but I like EF, so let's keep him.

I've wanted a defensive C for a long time, but again, I've got no idea who we could've traded Vuc for in that regard, or at what point. I wouldn't have picked Biyombo to have had the uprising he he's had. Mason Plumlee is a guy I've wanted for a bit, so let's just pretend that deal happened.

I didn't really have a player in last year's draft that I was dying for. Probably would've gone for WCS since the rest of the squad was lacking in defense.

Plumlee
WCS/Nicholson
Tobias/Hood
Exum/Fournier
McCollum

That's arguably the worst defensive squad in the league. Yuck. So glad we didn't go this route. I would've given them until last season to see who was our strongest scorer, then started moving secondary players for better fitting role players, kind of like what Hennigan has been doing. Would've kept Harris and tried to swing a trade with Atlanta for Millsap this summer, and still tried to sign Biyombo.

Biyombo/Plumlee
Millsap/WCS
Hood
Fournier/Exum
McCollum

I wouldn't be unhappy with that roster, although we'd still have a shortage of a bonafide star. I much prefer having the potential of AG to gush over.

[EAS Law]

Also, how else do you believe we should or could have approached our rebuild?

I'm not down on the team at all, but I do like to dabble in a bit of mulligan GM'ing.

I had players I was a fan of back in prior drafts, but had we picked them we'd be no better off than we are right now, I reckon.

I wanted McCollum over Oladipo. I think that's a bit of a wash, with CJ being more of a reliable scorer, but Oladipo being a much better defender.

I wanted Exum with our #4 pick, but also wanted AG with a trade up from the #12. Sounds like AG would've been gone by that point anyway (Utah were gonna take him #5 apparently), which means we'd be looking at the next option, who was Hood. This is a move I'm glad we didn't make, though, as I love AG.

I wouldn't have had a clue what kind of value we could've landed for Afflalo other than Fournier, but I like EF, so let's keep him.

I've wanted a defensive C for a long time, but again, I've got no idea who we could've traded Vuc for in that regard, or at what point. I wouldn't have picked Biyombo to have had the uprising he he's had. Mason Plumlee is a guy I've wanted for a bit, so let's just pretend that deal happened.

I didn't really have a player in last year's draft that I was dying for. Probably would've gone for WCS since the rest of the squad was lacking in defense.

Plumlee
WCS/Nicholson
Tobias/Hood
Exum/Fournier
McCollum

That's arguably the worst defensive squad in the league. Yuck. So glad we didn't go this route. I would've given them until last season to see who was our strongest scorer, then started moving secondary players for better fitting role players, kind of like what Hennigan has been doing. Would've kept Harris and tried to swing a trade with Atlanta for Millsap this summer, and still tried to sign Biyombo.

Biyombo/Plumlee
Millsap/WCS
Hood
Fournier/Exum
McCollum

I wouldn't be unhappy with that roster, although we'd still have a shortage of a bonafide star. I much prefer having the potential of AG to gush over.

I think that any scenario where we have Millsap is a good situation. I agree that the above team is likely to be more or less as good as our current team, and I'm glad that we took AG over Exum. I was actually very high on Exum too, so I'm glad I didn't make that call.

[EAS Law]

I just think the whole strategy the last four years has been flawed. We essentially tanked and overinvested into getting high draft picks and the guys we got were just decent players, no stars. I think Hennigan had a good idea for the team but he's also gotten a raw end of so many trades that I've lost faith in him.

I can understand that. Let me ask though, which trades did we really get hosed on?

Without question, we did the best of any team involved in the Dwight trade whether or not you like Vuc. Is that fair enough?

Tobias turned into Biyombo

Jeff Green is a one year deal that will allow us to pursue someone else next year at $17m/season

Hennigan turned Afflalo into Fournier. That's at very least a favorable deal, no?

Serge hasn't played a single second of basketball with our team so we will see, but Oladipo wasn't going to be anything more or less with us. He's not a number one guy regardless of how he plays with OKC.

So where did we stumble so badly? Also, how else do you believe we should or could have approached our rebuild?

I think we overpaid in the trade for Payton and for Ibaka.

You could make the argument for the Tobias trade as well but it still isn't that bad IMO because essentially what we did was just divest ourselves from the asset and payment obligations(cap space).

The problem is, we did it the one summer when literally everyone had cap space so there were more competitors for the top players this summer.

The Jodie Meeks deal is fine, we had to spend the money anyway.

Ibaka is a fine player, sure, but he is hardly what I would call a game changing presence. Good shot blocker, has defense accolades but he was younger then and there is debate whether his drop in defensive production is due to Steven Adam's emergence or whether he really was slowing down.

Good spot up shooter on offense and can pump fake and step in and shoot but that's really his only offensive skill. No post game and very little creativity off the dribble.

We gave way too many assets for Payton when in reality we probably should have just drafted Lavine who went right after him in that draft and has been more productive thus far in the league.

Hennigan has this problem of falling in love with certain amorphous ideas of which players fit his vision and deludes himself into thinking a marginal player is better than he really is. Other gms know this and try to take advantage of him.

I'm not as high on Payton as some here are, and I worry a lot about his potential, so I think your scenario of drafting Levine actually sounds good. I don't know that he has the tools to be a starting PG though. It would have been fun to watch him AND AG on the floor together plus we would have had that philly pick that was alright, so I'll give you that. At the very least, it's a different possibility that may have made a difference on the team.

As far as a rebuild strategy, what do you think would have worked better?

[Orlwillbeback]

Well for starters, my main point with bringing up the trades is that we traded a number of different assets in both scenarios and just got one player in return. Usually in the NBA those types of trades are salary dumps or big acquisitions to acquire a marquee star player. What Hennigan has done in these trades is overrated the guy he got in return to the point of trading multiple players and assets to get him when in reality just one of the assets he traded was close in value to the only asset he received in return.

The guy splurged on Payton thinking he was going to be a star. He still may turn out to be good but time is running out. Meanwhile, the guys who were also available in that draft at that spot or very comparable as players. Lavine, TJ Warren, Gary Harris.

I understand at the time we had just shipped off Jameer so we needed a point but that doesn't mean we needed to sacrifice assets and talent for a guy who really was t much of an upgrade.

[Orlwillbeback]

I am not sure there's a big plan I would have followed, You just need to try to maximize your value at every step of the way.

I would have kept Oladipo and Ilyasova and tried real hard to acquire Teague, hopefully signing him long term. I would then start Mario and Gordon at the four and then find a true defensive big, hopefully one more proven than BB.

[Orlwillbeback]

It's no secret that you need star players to win in this league. However, a lot of what goes into actually getting one is out of your control. I think Ainge has the right idea because now that he signed Horford long term, he has a really strong trade chip to acquire Blake Griffin if he wants out.

[SOUL]

Payton has produced similar or better stats than all of this players you just listed in their very short NBA careers.

It's beyond me how Payton's time is running out but for all of these other guys careers are just starting...

LaVine will be a really good scorer in this league, like an athletic Jamal Crawford, but is not a PG and has horrendous defense. If you think the debates last year with Fournier and Oladipo were bad, imagine mixing LaVine into that.

Henny has made some very good trades and a couple of head scratchers, but there's no way in hell that the Payton one is the worst, especially without Saric playing in an official game yet and the fact that the pick was conditional.

[SOUL]

Hopefully one more proven than BB.

?

He's probably one of the best young proven defensive bigs in the league. Not sure there are any more out there available in free agency or without giving up a sizable amount of talent for them like Gobert.

You keep talking about the failed system of Hennigan but you want to roll with Oladipo and Vucevic as co-anchors still (I know you don't like the team built around his offense, I don't either) -- but in your scenario he's still here as well, right? Not sure how that offers anything new for this season, where yes, Vucevic is still a big part of the offense, but he's sharing the load with other bigs so we don't get sucked into the Fournier/Vucevic centric offense all of the time.

I think for certain parts of his tenure here he did want to do things at different times but whether it be pressure from the front office or the coach, he pulled the trigger on some moves that could've been done later.

[MagicFan101]

ESPN never fails to disappoint.

Watch out, these are the most underrated teams in the NBA:
Houston Rockets
Sacramento Kings
Denver Nuggets
Utah Jazz
Brooklyn Nets

I left out the explanations as this is from an Insider article but some of these are head scratchers. I'm not sure if I expected Orlando do make this list but the Nets? The fricking Nets? The Rockets lost a lot but still have Harden so while I disagree I guess it makes sense. The Kings have Cousins and are always a threat to finally put it together. The Nuggets have some nice young pieces. But I don't really get the Jazz and I REALLY don't understand the Nets.

[Orlwillbeback]

Hopefully one more proven than BB.

?

He's probably one of the best young proven defensive bigs in the league.

.

Exactly. He's too young. I would have rather had somebody older and more experienced.

He has never started full time before in his career and never played starters minutes for an entire season.

I would have loved to get Bogut or someone like that.

[SOUL]

Phil truly **** Henny over though. There's no secret how much he wanted Porzingis.

I think Henny envisioned the team like this:

Payton
Oladipo
Fournier
Gordon
Porzingis

But hey, we have to make do with what we have. Despite dumbass groupthink basketball writers that have been clamoring for years that we need defensive bigs or unicorns instead of Vucevic, and then cry out how they're so confused about us picking those up without dumping Vucevic (which could be an eventual thing, but there's literally no reason to do it right now) -- yes, there is no evidence whether or not this will be a success, but it has a damn good chance to be one with Vogel and these pieces.

[SOUL]

Exactly. He's too young. I would have rather had somebody older and more experienced.

He has never started full time before in his career and never played starters minutes for an entire season.

I would have loved to get Bogut or someone like that.

We have him as he'll be entering his prime though. For his contract, he will be called upon to play big minutes but the amount that he eats up into the cap doesn't mean we have to play him starters minutes this second, we can ease him into that if his effect on the game is truly gamechanging like it was at times for the Raptors.

Bogut would be a decent option, but he's not one to really play starter minutes either, and he's extremely injury prone. Not to mention, going from Golden State to Orlando... there's a different dynamic there for him, while Biyombo was just with a similarly young-ish team that was hungry to get to the playoffs and do damage.

[Orlwillbeback]

Phil truly **** Henny over though. There's no secret how much he wanted Porzingis.

I think Henny envisioned the team like this:

Payton
Oladipo
Fournier
Gordon
Porzingis

But hey, we have to make do with what we have. Despite dumbass groupthink basketball writers that have been clamoring for years that we need defensive bigs or unicorns instead of Vucevic, and then cry out how they're so confused about us picking those up without dumping Vucevic (which could be an eventual thing, but there's literally no reason to do it right now) -- yes, there is no evidence whether or not this will be a success, but it has a damn good chance to be one with Vogel and these pieces.

Im not sure we should trade vucevic I just don't think he should start.

Other teams around the league have an offensive specialist big they bring off the bench like Nicholson or Al Jeff. But real good starting centers are typically defense and rebounding specialists. The problem is that's not really an option for the Magic because our Point guard is a terrible shooter so to make spacing work we are forced to find unicorns at the 4 and 5 spots, and Hennigan foolishly has done so, sacrificing assets and talent just to get the right fit, even though our talent overall is bad.

[Orlwillbeback]

Phil truly **** Henny over though. There's no secret how much he wanted Porzingis.

????

Porz was the 2015 draft and we weren't picking high enough to get him anyway. Nothing you just made any sense.

I you are saying Hinkie schooled Hennigan for Payton then I agree but Hinkie is still an idiot.

[SOUL]

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I think we have pretty good talent on this team. Not top level. If things swung differently a bit for us maybe it could be better, but about as much as we could've hoped for thus far and we still haven't scratched the surface on Gordon or Mario, and to a lower extent Payton, as much as people want to write him off at 22.

[SOUL]

Porz was the 2015 draft and we weren't picking high enough to get him anyway. Nothing you just made any sense.

Huh?

That's my point. I'm not referring to the 2014 Draft. It was obvious he wanted either Embiid or Gordon there, and then he wanted Payton, clearly.

In the 2015 Draft he 100% wanted Porzingis, and ... what?

He was slated to us for about 90% of the draft process until that Grantland video came out with Porzingis practicing and making people go nuts with his potential. That's when we saw Phil there scouting him and heard about the Knicks actually considering him there.

There was a lot of Mudiay/Winslow talk there before that for the Knicks with Porzingis a virtual lock for the Magic.