Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0

[drsd]

Sounds like Carter is already healthy. So some good news.

[pepe1991]

OT and bit off topic, things that nba counts as assists nowdays is laughable. Guy passes the ball to a guy, that guy goes to dribble, makes 5 dribbles, breaks man 1 on 1 and still guy who did literally nothing but gave up ball has assist? Why?

[jezzerinho]

OT and bit off topic, things that nba counts as assists nowdays is laughable. Guy passes the ball to a guy, that guy goes to dribble, makes 5 dribbles, breaks man 1 on 1 and still guy who did literally nothing but gave up ball has assist? Why?

The assist is a very poor statistic.

Any stat measuring a player that relies upon a posterior action by a second player is flawed. Many assists are as you say super basic passes that the other player, using far more skill, converts. Yet it still counts. Even worse is that a defence-breaking pass that lands in the hands of a big and just requires him to put it away isn't an assist if the big misses the simple layup.

With AI, I'm sure it must be possible to measure the passing efficiency of a player in a more accurate way.

[Tarheel]

OT and bit off topic, things that nba counts as assists nowdays is laughable. Guy passes the ball to a guy, that guy goes to dribble, makes 5 dribbles, breaks man 1 on 1 and still guy who did literally nothing but gave up ball has assist? Why?

The assist is a very poor statistic.

Any stat measuring a player that relies upon a posterior action by a second player is flawed. Many assists are as you say super basic passes that the other player, using far more skill, converts. Yet it still counts. Even worse is that a defence-breaking pass that lands in the hands of a big and just requires him to put it away isn't an assist if the big misses the simple layup.

With AI, I'm sure it must be possible to measure the passing efficiency of a player in a more accurate way.

Yeah, it can't be too dissimilar a structure from xG in football and that's been around for a few years now.

[pepe1991]

OT and bit off topic, things that nba counts as assists nowdays is laughable. Guy passes the ball to a guy, that guy goes to dribble, makes 5 dribbles, breaks man 1 on 1 and still guy who did literally nothing but gave up ball has assist? Why?

The assist is a very poor statistic.

Any stat measuring a player that relies upon a posterior action by a second player is flawed. Many assists are as you say super basic passes that the other player, using far more skill, converts. Yet it still counts. Even worse is that a defence-breaking pass that lands in the hands of a big and just requires him to put it away isn't an assist if the big misses the simple layup.

With AI, I'm sure it must be possible to measure the passing efficiency of a player in a more accurate way.

Yeah, it can't be too dissimilar a structure from xG in football and that's been around for a few years now.

“An assist is a pass that directly leads to a basket. This can be a pass to the low post that leads to a direct score, a long pass for a layup, a fast break pass to a teammate for a layup, and/or a pass that results in an open perimeter shot for a teammate. In basketball, an assist is awarded only if, in the judgment of the statistician, the last player’s pass contributed directly to a made basket. An assist can be awarded for a basket scored after the ball has been dribbled if the player’s pass led to the field goal being made.”

It seems the consensus for what is an assist is a pass that leads to a score of two dribbles or less. The problem is, that this criterion goes against the very first part of the NBA’s definition that states a pass that leads directly to a basket is an assist. It is understandable that the two-dribble concept is an assist because it provides some uniformity for statisticians around the league but it is flawed concept.

I'll post video of Westbrook, 4 possessions ,3 assist, two assits on Melo .
In first Melo does between 6 and 8 steps after reciving ball and makes shot - Westbrook gets assists
In second, basically same thing, but this time with at least 4 steps- but still Westbrook gets assists.

If you are nba playmaker you can collect 5 assists a game by accident if this is criteria for assists.

[MoMM]

The assist is a very poor statistic.

Any stat measuring a player that relies upon a posterior action by a second player is flawed. Many assists are as you say super basic passes that the other player, using far more skill, converts. Yet it still counts. Even worse is that a defence-breaking pass that lands in the hands of a big and just requires him to put it away isn't an assist if the big misses the simple layup.

With AI, I'm sure it must be possible to measure the passing efficiency of a player in a more accurate way.

Yeah, it can't be too dissimilar a structure from xG in football and that's been around for a few years now.

“An assist is a pass that directly leads to a basket. This can be a pass to the low post that leads to a direct score, a long pass for a layup, a fast break pass to a teammate for a layup, and/or a pass that results in an open perimeter shot for a teammate. In basketball, an assist is awarded only if, in the judgment of the statistician, the last player’s pass contributed directly to a made basket. An assist can be awarded for a basket scored after the ball has been dribbled if the player’s pass led to the field goal being made.”

It seems the consensus for what is an assist is a pass that leads to a score of two dribbles or less. The problem is, that this criterion goes against the very first part of the NBA’s definition that states a pass that leads directly to a basket is an assist. It is understandable that the two-dribble concept is an assist because it provides some uniformity for statisticians around the league but it is flawed concept.

I'll post video of Westbrook, 4 possessions ,3 assist, two assits on Melo .
In first Melo does between 6 and 8 steps after reciving ball and makes shot - Westbrook gets assists
In second, basically same thing, but this time with at least 4 steps- but still Westbrook gets assists.

If you are nba playmaker you can collect 5 assists a game by accident if this is criteria for assists.

How did it work when Stockton played? I don't think it was this easy to get assists.

[drsd]

OT and bit off topic, things that nba counts as assists nowdays is laughable. Guy passes the ball to a guy, that guy goes to dribble, makes 5 dribbles, breaks man 1 on 1 and still guy who did literally nothing but gave up ball has assist? Why?

Thirty years ago I remember a Wilt Chamberlain quote on how he would average 10 apg with the 1980s assist "style". I am sure he was correct. But what would he do now: 15 apg?

Wilt Chamberlain could easily be a point-Center in today's NBA. Jokić might be the only player to have this style of game since.

p.s. Jokić could lead the league in assists if it wasn't for the stat-scoring malarkey that is prevalent and ongoing.

..

[pepe1991]

Yeah, it can't be too dissimilar a structure from xG in football and that's been around for a few years now.

“An assist is a pass that directly leads to a basket. This can be a pass to the low post that leads to a direct score, a long pass for a layup, a fast break pass to a teammate for a layup, and/or a pass that results in an open perimeter shot for a teammate. In basketball, an assist is awarded only if, in the judgment of the statistician, the last player’s pass contributed directly to a made basket. An assist can be awarded for a basket scored after the ball has been dribbled if the player’s pass led to the field goal being made.”

It seems the consensus for what is an assist is a pass that leads to a score of two dribbles or less. The problem is, that this criterion goes against the very first part of the NBA’s definition that states a pass that leads directly to a basket is an assist. It is understandable that the two-dribble concept is an assist because it provides some uniformity for statisticians around the league but it is flawed concept.

I'll post video of Westbrook, 4 possessions ,3 assist, two assits on Melo .
In first Melo does between 6 and 8 steps after reciving ball and makes shot - Westbrook gets assists
In second, basically same thing, but this time with at least 4 steps- but still Westbrook gets assists.

If you are nba playmaker you can collect 5 assists a game by accident if this is criteria for assists.

How did it work when Stockton played? I don't think it was this easy to get assists.

Watch on YouTube

When he had 28 assists game it seems like all of them were legit .

[drsd]

When he had 28 assists game it seems like all of them were legit .

Neither Magic Johnson nor John Stockton averaged 20 ppg over their careers, yet these are the two best PGs ever.

How the game has changed!


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[pepe1991]

When he had 28 assists game it seems like all of them were legit .

Neither Magic Johnson nor John Stockton averaged 20 ppg over their careers, yet these are the two best PGs ever.

How the game has changed!


..

Chris Paul is career 18 ppg player as well, averaged over 20 - twice in whole career.
Steve Nash would thrive in this era of spacing.

[Skybox]

They said that Dean Smith was the only man who could hold down Michael Jordan's offensive talent...I'd say Cole Anthony is the same for Franz.

Free Franz.

[KillMonger]

They said that Dean Smith was the only man who could hold down Michael Jordan's offensive talent...I'd say Cole Anthony is the same for Franz.

Free Franz.

it did seem like they made a more concerted effort to get franz involved and keep him involved....could've easily had 30+

[drsd]

it did seem like they made a more concerted effort to get franz involved and keep him involved....could've easily had 30+

Apparently coach wants him in some on-ball plays and his usage rate is expected to be above 27% every game from here on. So I see a run of 20+ ppgs to close out the season.

This is the kind of "player development" I want to see. Not 25 minutes from Brazdeikis.

..

[Skybox]

it did seem like they made a more concerted effort to get franz involved and keep him involved....could've easily had 30+

Apparently coach wants him in some on-ball plays and his usage rate is expected to be above 27% every game from here on. So I see a run of 20+ ppgs to close out the season.

This is the kind of "player development" I want to see. Not 25 minutes from Brazdeikis.

..

Based on what he's shown in those instances...we would have been looking at serious ROY consideration if he wasn't stuck watching Cole fumble away possessions for much of the season. I think he'd look a lot like Cade (stylistically) in the world's eyes - if given the opportunity.

[DiplomaticMagic]

We should try and make a trade for Mitchell if Jazz decides to blow it up

[drsd]

We should try and make a trade for Mitchell if Jazz decides to blow it up

Well Orlando does have assets. A trade would need to lower the Jazz tax line, acquire an expiring bring in young assets AND draft picks.

Utah: Donovan Mitchell and traded to reduce payroll - Rudy Gay

Orlando:
Mr. expiring: Terrence Ross
Young guns: Jalen Suggs, Cole Anthony, and Chuma Okeke.
Orlando needs to draft for Utah and then trade the 2023 (this is the only way to trade this year and next year's FRPs), and 2025 FRPs as well.

(( restated: this is Mitchell and Gay for Suggs, Ross, Anthony, Okeke, Orlando's 2022 FRP, Orlando's 2023 FRP, and Orlando's 2025 FRP )).


Utah gets Orlando's rebuild assets, whilst remaining a playoff team in this reset.

Orlando is left with:

Fultz
Mitchell/Hampton
F-Wagner/Gay
Isaac/M-Wagner
Carter/Bamba

Presumably Orlando would use its high SRP on a rotational big. This means Orlando needs a MLE-type PG to backup Fultz, a MLE-combo wing to slide Hampton to third string SG and provide insurance SF minutes for when Gay is unavailable, and a G-leaguer PG and a G-leaguer combo big to flush out the roster.

THe 2022/23 Orlando Magic
Fultz/MLE-vet/G-leaguer
Mitchell/MLE-vet/Hampton
F-Wagner/Gay
Isaac/M-Wagner/G-leaguer
Carter/Bamba/SRP


I really, really like this team. Is the trade enough for Utah? Would Mitchell ever be made available given how loyal he has been?

It is a fantasy trade. But on paper, I like it for both teams.

..

[Skybox]

We really need a housecleaning offseason...addition by subtraction, if necessary. I didn't realistically expect to have a decent team this year, but development of players was the real goal and it didn't happen (enough). I know it's a tank job, but some of these guys feel like they're on a development treadmill. I've always been one of the few optimists here, but even my "half full" glass is cracking...

Guys that could have/should have made a leap post-selloff...
RJ Hampton...can't even earn starting minutes on a tank team...is he even an NBA player? what value are we expecting truly?
Cole Anthony...his numbers suck but they are better than watching what he does to this team EVERY possession he can.
Chuma...everybody loves Chum. Me too...he just hasn't been very good. I thought he'd grab a solid rotation slot-but he hasn't.
TRoss...he should have jumped in, got minutes, put up crazy #s in losses to boost his trade value...but he just withered into neg value.
Bamba...he got the minutes, did improve, IMO...but he doesn't look like a starter in this league. Happy to keep him cheap or let him go.

Fultz...incomplete grade...we're so happy to see him on the court that we give him way more credit for being pretty good.
Isaac...incomplete grade...who even remembers what he was or can guess what he will ever be. Certainly worth keeping & praying
WCJ...improved...good player...only looks great on this dumpster fire of a team, still unclear, IMO, if he's very good. Not a Center, IMO.
Suggs...good pick, rookie troubles...still, IMO, has star upside despite many questions and development assumptions, I feel good
Franz...A+ pick, absolute best pick in the draft when considering slot he was chosen, give him the ball...what can Cade do that he can't?

I hate feeling this way about Cole but he's become unwatchable to me...just infuriating to see him go solo, burn clock, chuck bad shots, and when he does pass it doesn't usually put his teammates in better position to score...more likely a bailout when he's trapped. As far as the others, you can make a decent case that there's hope for improvement...but really? for how long?

[jezzerinho]

We really need a housecleaning offseason...addition by subtraction, if necessary. I didn't realistically expect to have a decent team this year, but development of players was the real goal and it didn't happen (enough). I know it's a tank job, but some of these guys feel like they're on a development treadmill. I've always been one of the few optimists here, but even my "half full" glass is cracking...

Guys that could have/should have made a leap post-selloff...
RJ Hampton...can't even earn starting minutes on a tank team...is he even an NBA player? what value are we expecting truly?
Cole Anthony...his numbers suck but they are better than watching what he does to this team EVERY possession he can.
Chuma...everybody loves Chum. Me too...he just hasn't been very good. I thought he'd grab a solid rotation slot-but he hasn't.
TRoss...he should have jumped in, got minutes, put up crazy #s in losses to boost his trade value...but he just withered into neg value.
Bamba...he got the minutes, did improve, IMO...but he doesn't look like a starter in this league. Happy to keep him cheap or let him go.

Fultz...incomplete grade...we're so happy to see him on the court that we give him way more credit for being pretty good.
Isaac...incomplete grade...who even remembers what he was or can guess what he will ever be. Certainly worth keeping & praying
WCJ...improved...good player...only looks great on this dumpster fire of a team, still unclear, IMO, if he's very good. Not a Center, IMO.
Suggs...good pick, rookie troubles...still, IMO, has star upside despite many questions and development assumptions, I feel good
Franz...A+ pick, absolute best pick in the draft when considering slot he was chosen, give him the ball...what can Cade do that he can't?

I hate feeling this way about Cole but he's become unwatchable to me...just infuriating to see him go solo, burn clock, chuck bad shots, and when he does pass it doesn't usually put his teammates in better position to score...more likely a bailout when he's trapped. As far as the others, you can make a decent case that there's hope for improvement...but really? for how long?

Great post. I think Anthony could be a much better player but i just don't know if he wants to be.

[Xatticus]

We should try and make a trade for Mitchell if Jazz decides to blow it up

They aren't trading Mitchell whether they decide to blow it up or not. They aren't going to bottom out. They might try to trade Gobert to retool.

[Bensational]

We should try and make a trade for Mitchell if Jazz decides to blow it up

They aren't trading Mitchell whether they decide to blow it up or not. They aren't going to bottom out. They might try to trade Gobert to retool.

Would you trade for Gobert? If so, what would be be prepared to give up for him?

I’d do Isaac + Bamba + Cap relief for them. I doubt they’d consider that, but depends on how many teams have an appetite for Gobert’s contract.