Deconstructing Elfrid's defense

[Catledge]

Even Payton's defenders are arguing that yes, he is a terrible defender, but we still shouldn't criticize him because... DJ isn't as good as Magic Daily thinks?

Nobody on the planet gets the kind of passes that Payton gets from some people on this board. It's Martins' fault! It's Skiles' fault! It's because he's a bad fit! Dipo is holding him back!

The truth is that it's Payton's own fault because he is just not a very good basketball player by NBA standards. Yes, he has improved and continues to improve, but that is true of the vast majority of young players (Dipo, Harris, and Gordon for instance). In Payton's case, his starting point was so low that even after four years of steady improvement, he remains a backup-quality player.

But I'm sure the Payton defenders will have all kinds of excellent explanations for why 1) Payton is awesome, and 2) those of us who disagree are both idiots and terrible Magic fans.

[OrlandO]

I wonder what teams are willing to offer Elf in free agency.... and what we're willing to match. Doesn't seem like too many teams need a starting PG and are the ones that do willing to pay a lot for a PG like him? If he's only going to get backup money then might as well keep him here to be our backup. Is DJ's contract still really bad or is he movable now that he's putting up good stats and has less years left?

[OrlandoNed]

Even Payton's defenders are arguing that yes, he is a terrible defender, but we still shouldn't criticize him because... DJ isn't as good as Magic Daily thinks?

Nobody on the planet gets the kind of passes that Payton gets from some people on this board. It's Martins' fault! It's Skiles' fault! It's because he's a bad fit! Dipo is holding him back!

The truth is that it's Payton's own fault because he is just not a very good basketball player by NBA standards. Yes, he has improved and continues to improve, but that is true of the vast majority of young players (Dipo, Harris, and Gordon for instance). In Payton's case, his starting point was so low that even after four years of steady improvement, he remains a backup-quality player.

But I'm sure the Payton defenders will have all kinds of excellent explanations for why 1) Payton is awesome, and 2) those of us who disagree are both idiots and terrible Magic fans.

I just don't understand what Payton has done to merit such a rabid following. The fascination with him is just bizarre to me.

[Audi]

But I'm sure the Payton defenders will have all kinds of excellent explanations for why 1) Payton is awesome, and 2) those of us who disagree are both idiots and terrible Magic fans.

Where in the world did this narrative come? You don't ACTUALLY believe Payton defenders believe and are attempting to do this, do you?

[CajunBall]

Even Payton's defenders are arguing that yes, he is a terrible defender, but we still shouldn't criticize him because... DJ isn't as good as Magic Daily thinks?

Nobody on the planet gets the kind of passes that Payton gets from some people on this board. It's Martins' fault! It's Skiles' fault! It's because he's a bad fit! Dipo is holding him back!

The truth is that it's Payton's own fault because he is just not a very good basketball player by NBA standards. Yes, he has improved and continues to improve, but that is true of the vast majority of young players (Dipo, Harris, and Gordon for instance). In Payton's case, his starting point was so low that even after four years of steady improvement, he remains a backup-quality player.

But I'm sure the Payton defenders will have all kinds of excellent explanations for why 1) Payton is awesome, and 2) those of us who disagree are both idiots and terrible Magic fans.

I just don't understand what Payton has done to merit such a rabid following. The fascination with him is just bizarre to me.

I don't understand what he's done to warrant such unprecedented hate. I, for one, have never made the argument that he is above criticism or doesn't have some flaws in his game. That has never been the issue with any of the few people who "defend Payton". Our issue has always been that he gets piled on in such a way that it seems like he's the only player responsible for the team's lack of success. Then we get statements like this: "Nobody on the planet gets the kind of passes that Payton gets from some people on this board." This is complete nonsense if I've ever heard it. I guess all these passes are referring to people reminding fellow posters that basketball is a team sport, therefore it is unfair to place 99 percent of blame on a single player. If that's what qualifies as a "pass" that "no one on the planet gets" then I'll give him or anyone else passes all day. That includes Gordon for his abyssmal decline in shooting from the beginnging of the season to now and recklessness, Vucevic for his abyssmal defense including pick & roll defense (yes it requires more than one person to defend) and his unwillingness to set any real screens, Fournier for his inconsistency as a number one option and lack of defense, Biyombo for his lack of ability to consistently catch the ball and inability to actually put it in the basket when he does catch it, Simmons for his questionable shot selection, Speights for missing wide open shots etc. I'll even go so far as to say I'll even "defend" players who miss wide open shots that Payton creates for them every game. But I guess I'll leave it there for now and watch you guys goes go on and on with your exaggerated criticisms.

[OrlandoNed]

Even Payton's defenders are arguing that yes, he is a terrible defender, but we still shouldn't criticize him because... DJ isn't as good as Magic Daily thinks?

Nobody on the planet gets the kind of passes that Payton gets from some people on this board. It's Martins' fault! It's Skiles' fault! It's because he's a bad fit! Dipo is holding him back!

The truth is that it's Payton's own fault because he is just not a very good basketball player by NBA standards. Yes, he has improved and continues to improve, but that is true of the vast majority of young players (Dipo, Harris, and Gordon for instance). In Payton's case, his starting point was so low that even after four years of steady improvement, he remains a backup-quality player.

But I'm sure the Payton defenders will have all kinds of excellent explanations for why 1) Payton is awesome, and 2) those of us who disagree are both idiots and terrible Magic fans.

I just don't understand what Payton has done to merit such a rabid following. The fascination with him is just bizarre to me.

I don't understand what he's done to warrant such unprecedented hate. I, for one, have never made the argument that he is above criticism or doesn't have some flaws in his game. That has never been the issue with any of the few people who "defend Payton". Our issue has always been that he gets piled on in such a way that it seems like he's the only player responsible for the team's lack of success. Then we get statements like this: "Nobody on the planet gets the kind of passes that Payton gets from some people on this board." This is complete nonsense if I've ever heard it. I guess all these passes are referring to people reminding fellow posters that basketball is a team sport, therefore it is unfair to place 99 percent of blame on a single player. If that's what qualifies as a "pass" that "no one on the planet gets" then I'll give him or anyone else passes all day. That includes Gordon for his abyssmal decline in shooting from the beginnging of the season to now and recklessness, Vucevic for his abyssmal defense including pick & roll defense (yes it requires more than one person to defend) and his unwillingness to set any real screens, Fournier for his inconsistency as a number one option and lack of defense, Biyombo for his lack of ability to consistently catch the ball and inability to actually put it in the basket when he does catch it, Simmons for his questionable shot selection, Speights for missing wide open shots etc. I'll even go so far as to say I'll even "defend" players who miss wide open shots that Payton creates for them every game. But I guess I'll leave it there for now and watch you guys goes go on and on with your exaggerated criticisms.

Oof, that was a hard read. Punctuation please.

Given your name and the team flairs under your name, I'm going to assume you are a little bit biased towards Payton and a little too sensitive about his criticism.

Payton has certainly not been singled out as the only reason our team has been terrible. Orlando is one of the worst teams in the NBA, obviously Payton is not the only reason for that but his flaws are some of the most apparent out of all of his teammates' flaws. Payton may get more criticism than others but that doesn't mean he's being treated unfairly. Everybody on the team has gotten their fair share of criticism. Your whataboutism defense of Payton by pointing out the flaws of the other players doesn't change the fact that he's a terrible player. The only saving grace of his is his passing, but that doesn't excuse the constant poor effort, bad defense and horrible shooting.

I don't hate Payton, I just know that he is not good enough to be a starting point guard and that the franchise has wasted enough time on him.

[Xatticus]

Even Payton's defenders are arguing that yes, he is a terrible defender, but we still shouldn't criticize him because... DJ isn't as good as Magic Daily thinks?

Nobody on the planet gets the kind of passes that Payton gets from some people on this board. It's Martins' fault! It's Skiles' fault! It's because he's a bad fit! Dipo is holding him back!

The truth is that it's Payton's own fault because he is just not a very good basketball player by NBA standards. Yes, he has improved and continues to improve, but that is true of the vast majority of young players (Dipo, Harris, and Gordon for instance). In Payton's case, his starting point was so low that even after four years of steady improvement, he remains a backup-quality player.

But I'm sure the Payton defenders will have all kinds of excellent explanations for why 1) Payton is awesome, and 2) those of us who disagree are both idiots and terrible Magic fans.

I just don't understand what Payton has done to merit such a rabid following. The fascination with him is just bizarre to me.

I'll come to the defense of anyone I believe is being unfairly persecuted.

From the moment I joined this board, there has been a healthy contingent that has relentlessly asserted that Payton can't lead this team, isn't a modern NBA point guard, and must be dumped. This despite the fact that he has been our most productive point guard for almost the entirety of his tenure here, hasn't yet turned 24, is still on his rookie contract, and has yet to reach restricted free agency.

Payton is earning less than half the salary of Augustin. Only one player in the NBA had a worse plus/minus than Augustin last season (-444) and Augustin managed this in fewer than 20 minutes a game:
https://www.foxsports.com/nba/stats?season=2016&category=MISC&group=1&sort=12&time=0&pos=0&team=0&qual=1&sortOrder=1&opp=0

I'm not advocating for the creation of weekly threads that attack Augustin, but I do want to point out how absurd it is that so much attention is focused on Payton's shortcomings and how frequently the same posters feel the compulsion to repeat themselves on the matter. It's really tiresome and it has nothing to do with productivity or value.

[Audi]

So I really didn't want to start a new thread on this, but I was looking at some Dennis Schroeder stats and thought how similar he and Elf look (on paper). Elf is a poorer FT shooter who gets to the line less often, while having a better eFG% and being a much better rebounder. I bet if Elf shot the same volume, the two would have very similar looking stats, with the exception of REBs and FT%. Just an interesting thing I stumbled on and figured this was the most active "Elf thread" to share it in.

[NBlue]

Even Payton's defenders are arguing that yes, he is a terrible defender, but we still shouldn't criticize him because... DJ isn't as good as Magic Daily thinks?

Nobody on the planet gets the kind of passes that Payton gets from some people on this board. It's Martins' fault! It's Skiles' fault! It's because he's a bad fit! Dipo is holding him back!

The truth is that it's Payton's own fault because he is just not a very good basketball player by NBA standards. Yes, he has improved and continues to improve, but that is true of the vast majority of young players (Dipo, Harris, and Gordon for instance). In Payton's case, his starting point was so low that even after four years of steady improvement, he remains a backup-quality player.

But I'm sure the Payton defenders will have all kinds of excellent explanations for why 1) Payton is awesome, and 2) those of us who disagree are both idiots and terrible Magic fans.

I just don't understand what Payton has done to merit such a rabid following. The fascination with him is just bizarre to me.

I don't understand what he's done to warrant such unprecedented hate. I, for one, have never made the argument that he is above criticism or doesn't have some flaws in his game. That has never been the issue with any of the few people who "defend Payton". Our issue has always been that he gets piled on in such a way that it seems like he's the only player responsible for the team's lack of success. Then we get statements like this: "Nobody on the planet gets the kind of passes that Payton gets from some people on this board." This is complete nonsense if I've ever heard it. I guess all these passes are referring to people reminding fellow posters that basketball is a team sport, therefore it is unfair to place 99 percent of blame on a single player. If that's what qualifies as a "pass" that "no one on the planet gets" then I'll give him or anyone else passes all day. That includes Gordon for his abyssmal decline in shooting from the beginnging of the season to now and recklessness, Vucevic for his abyssmal defense including pick & roll defense (yes it requires more than one person to defend) and his unwillingness to set any real screens, Fournier for his inconsistency as a number one option and lack of defense, Biyombo for his lack of ability to consistently catch the ball and inability to actually put it in the basket when he does catch it, Simmons for his questionable shot selection, Speights for missing wide open shots etc. I'll even go so far as to say I'll even "defend" players who miss wide open shots that Payton creates for them every game. But I guess I'll leave it there for now and watch you guys goes go on and on with your exaggerated criticisms.

Exactly. Agree 100%. There is plenty of blame to go around and EP deserves his fair share. At the same time, if I'm looking for where to place the lion's share of the criticism I'm looking right at ownership and management. We are a Mickey Mouse organization who has failed to develop our young talent or put them in a position to succeed. When EP gets traded maybe he turns the corner like Dipo or maybe he never develops like Harkless -- hard to say. One thing is for certain -- it was difficult for him succeed here in the midst of our organizational incompetence.

[pepe1991]

Going through comment even Payton defenders acknowledge he is terrible defender but make case he is better than DJ and Mack? How is that arguing in his favour when DJ is another guy that Hennigan brought to be his backup, not his replacment.

Hennigan gambled a lot when he decided that Elfrid is starter, and that decision got him fired because he did A LOT of traded with mindset that his PG position is solved. Matter of fact i'm willing to debate that one of key reasons why he didn't try to keep Oladipo was because Evan fitted Payton better as more of a catch&shoot guy.


I completly disagree with Xatticus and his view of point guard defense and overall impact on defense. Your PG can hold whole defense together but also can torn whole defense apart. Case and point : Chris Paul, Mike Conley vs Isaiah Thomas.

Houston moved from #18 in defensive rating last year to top 8# this year by adding just him. His ability to chase players through screens and make strong pressure on ballhandler transformed whole defense.
Conley, or lack of Conley transformed 7# ranked defense, by defensive rating in 2016-17 to 18# defense in 2017-18.

PG defense can easly be viewed as essential for good defense because your PG and big man defend most played set play in whole league - pick&roll. And Payton, by all accounts is one of worst ,if not the worst starting PG at it when it comes to defense in that particular play.


Polar opposite example of Conley and Paul is Isaiah Thomas. Guy who made Jose Calderon look like great defender. He took whole team to another level of disaster when he returned due his inability to do anything on defense.

4 years into his nba career that guy was never challenged to fight for starting job, Hennigan just kept throwing backups to change a pace ,not to replace him ( Jennings, DJ, CJ Watson ).
4 year into his nba career and guy was benched by pretty much every single coach who ever tried to win games. But because how team was built it was always him vs guy who should never start or never did start .
4 years into his nba career and your starting PG is shooting below 65% free throws and makes lesss threes halfway through a season than Curry makes in 6 games. Literally.
4 years into his nba career and he somehow gets worst on defense year after year.

Sorry but it's time to get new PG and move on.

[NSB_Magic]

It’s not his offensive game, his effort, or even his shooting ability.

He just simply cannot stay in front of his man on D.

He is uniquely athletic.. but unfortunately lateral quickness is not part of the package.

I still think he can be damn good NBA player, and I’d love to see him as our 6th man tearing up second units... but right now I’m giving up on him as our featured point guard.

This was hard for me as I have always loved the way the guy plays ball.

[MagicStarwipe]

His defense is disappointing... as is Gordon's, Fournier's, Vucevic's, Simmons' and even Biyombo. Evidently everything we touch turns to crap on that end. The funny thing is that once again the advanced stats have him as a top 2 player on the team and an above average player in the league while everyone wants to talk about him like he is trash.

[Audi]

Going through comment even Payton defenders acknowledge he is terrible defender but make case he is better than DJ and Mack? How is that arguing in his favour when DJ is another guy that Hennigan brought to be his backup, not his replacment.

It's not so much "making the case" as it is responding to people claiming otherwise, such as: (on replacing Payton with DJ or Mack): "Suddenly the Magic’s most significant defensive weakness becomes a major strength." and DJ has "played like the Magic’s best point guard for some time now."

4 years into his nba career that guy was never challenged to fight for starting job, Hennigan just kept throwing backups to change a pace ,not to replace him ( Jennings, DJ, CJ Watson ).
4 year into his nba career and guy was benched by pretty much every single coach who ever tried to win games. But because how team was built it was always him vs guy who should never start or never did start .
4 years into his nba career and your starting PG is shooting below 65% free throws and makes lesss threes halfway through a season than Curry makes in 6 games. Literally.
4 years into his nba career and he somehow gets worst on defense year after year.

Sorry but it's time to get new PG and move on.

And as it is and always has been for Elf defenders - this is fine... but who?

[pepe1991]

Going through comment even Payton defenders acknowledge he is terrible defender but make case he is better than DJ and Mack? How is that arguing in his favour when DJ is another guy that Hennigan brought to be his backup, not his replacment.

It's not so much "making the case" as it is responding to people claiming otherwise, such as: (on replacing Payton with DJ or Mack): "Suddenly the Magic’s most significant defensive weakness becomes a major strength." and DJ has "played like the Magic’s best point guard for some time now."

4 years into his nba career that guy was never challenged to fight for starting job, Hennigan just kept throwing backups to change a pace ,not to replace him ( Jennings, DJ, CJ Watson ).
4 year into his nba career and guy was benched by pretty much every single coach who ever tried to win games. But because how team was built it was always him vs guy who should never start or never did start .
4 years into his nba career and your starting PG is shooting below 65% free throws and makes lesss threes halfway through a season than Curry makes in 6 games. Literally.
4 years into his nba career and he somehow gets worst on defense year after year.

Sorry but it's time to get new PG and move on.

And as it is and always has been for Elf defenders - this is fine... but who?

Who? whoever they draft or sign in FA.
Vogel's offense never really needed traditional PG in first place , he had most success with Hill who was basically spot up shooter who happends to defend PGs

[Catledge]

But I'm sure the Payton defenders will have all kinds of excellent explanations for why 1) Payton is awesome, and 2) those of us who disagree are both idiots and terrible Magic fans.

Where in the world did this narrative come? You don't ACTUALLY believe Payton defenders believe and are attempting to do this, do you?

I'll grant that I'm really talking about five or so posters and that this doesn't represent the vast majority of Payton fans. I also imagine that I notice it more than you do because I've been the repeated target of those attacks, but yes, this is actually what I'm saying.

I was among the very few to question Payton's ability his rookie year when everybody else here was drinking the Kool-aid, and the common responses were that 1) I'm a hater, 2) stats mean nothing, and 3) I lack the intellectual ability to apply a competent eye test to a pass-first pg. None of those people seem to have lost confidence in their analytical skills despite having been woefully wrong at the top of their lungs.

[Xatticus]

I completly disagree with Xatticus and his view of point guard defense and overall impact on defense. Your PG can hold whole defense together but also can torn whole defense apart. Case and point : Chris Paul, Mike Conley vs Isaiah Thomas.

Houston moved from #18 in defensive rating last year to top 8# this year by adding just him. His ability to chase players through screens and make strong pressure on ballhandler transformed whole defense.
Conley, or lack of Conley transformed 7# ranked defense, by defensive rating in 2016-17 to 18# defense in 2017-18.

PG defense can easly be viewed as essential for good defense because your PG and big man defend most played set play in whole league - pick&roll. And Payton, by all accounts is one of worst ,if not the worst starting PG at it when it comes to defense in that particular play.


Polar opposite example of Conley and Paul is Isaiah Thomas. Guy who made Jose Calderon look like great defender. He took whole team to another level of disaster when he returned due his inability to do anything on defense.

I'm not arguing that PG defense is irrelevant, but rather that it is the least important position on the team with regards to defense. It's the only position on the floor where a player can't earn a living in the NBA without providing at least some offensive value. You can count on one hand the number of PGs in the NBA that can do a credible job as help defenders in the paint. For similar reasons, they are subpar at closing out because they lack the length to challenge. This makes them relevant only at the point-of-attack or in jumping passing lanes.

Houston has climbed in team defense for a variety of reasons. Paul (9-time all-NBA defense selection) is a part of it, but keep in mind that he is replacing a fellow member of the all-NBA first-team defense in Patrick Beverley. They are also benefiting from the emergence of Capela and they signed PJ Tucker for $8M per year to fix their defense.

In any given year, the best defensive point guards are interspersed all over the team defense rankings because they just aren't that impactful regardless of their quality. The best defense in the NBA this year has Kyrie Irving as their PG. Yes. Boston has improved substantially this year, but just a couple years ago they finished fourth in the NBA in team defense with Isaiah Thomas as their PG.

I'm not arguing that Payton's defense is irrelevant. He has been a problem on defense this year. I wouldn't go as far as to state that he is a terrible defender, but he is really awful at handling screens. We know Payton can be better because he has been better. The article in question asserted that he is responsible for our awful defense, which is just an absurd claim.

[pepe1991]

I completly disagree with Xatticus and his view of point guard defense and overall impact on defense. Your PG can hold whole defense together but also can torn whole defense apart. Case and point : Chris Paul, Mike Conley vs Isaiah Thomas.

Houston moved from #18 in defensive rating last year to top 8# this year by adding just him. His ability to chase players through screens and make strong pressure on ballhandler transformed whole defense.
Conley, or lack of Conley transformed 7# ranked defense, by defensive rating in 2016-17 to 18# defense in 2017-18.

PG defense can easly be viewed as essential for good defense because your PG and big man defend most played set play in whole league - pick&roll. And Payton, by all accounts is one of worst ,if not the worst starting PG at it when it comes to defense in that particular play.


Polar opposite example of Conley and Paul is Isaiah Thomas. Guy who made Jose Calderon look like great defender. He took whole team to another level of disaster when he returned due his inability to do anything on defense.

I'm not arguing that PG defense is irrelevant, but rather that it is the least important position on the team with regards to defense. It's the only position on the floor where a player can't earn a living in the NBA without providing at least some offensive value. You can count on one hand the number of PGs in the NBA that can do a credible job as help defenders in the paint. For similar reasons, they are subpar at closing out because they lack the length to challenge. This makes them relevant only at the point-of-attack or in jumping passing lanes.

Houston has climbed in team defense for a variety of reasons. Paul (9-time all-NBA defense selection) is a part of it, but keep in mind that he is replacing a fellow member of the all-NBA first-team defense in Patrick Beverley. They are also benefiting from the emergence of Capela and they signed PJ Tucker for $8M per year to fix their defense.

In any given year, the best defensive point guards are interspersed all over the team defense rankings because they just aren't that impactful regardless of their quality. The best defense in the NBA this year has Kyrie Irving as their PG. Yes. Boston has improved substantially this year, but just a couple years ago they finished fourth in the NBA in team defense with Isaiah Thomas as their PG.

I'm not arguing that Payton's defense is irrelevant. He has been a problem on defense this year. I wouldn't go as far as to state that he is a terrible defender, but he is really awful at handling screens. We know Payton can be better because he has been better. The article in question asserted that he is responsible for our awful defense, which is just an absurd claim.

Celtics had elite defense despite IT not because of him. Putting around guys like Bradley and Smart ,who defended PGs anyway helped them.
I really don't think that Kyrie was as bad defender before Celtics that people claim. For example at age of 22 , during playoffs he had defensive rating of 104 along with +0,7 DBPM. During championship run his defensive rating was 107 on +0,1 DBPM. He is not lockdown defender by any mean but he holds his own.

[quote]It's the only position on the floor where a player can't earn a living in the NBA without providing at least some offensive value. [/quote
I agree with this but i have another angle to look at it. I belive that offensive players ,due favorable calls and rules and overall talent ,at PG position are simply too superior to defenders . Westbrook probably couldn't guard himself if he ever faced himself, Curry couldn't guard himself ,if he ever met himself. If you are PG defender only thing you can do is force some turnover or force xy player to drive on your strong side of defense or force some tough shots, but most of elite PGs will still make shots even if you do all that.

I would probably never argue that much against Payton if his fans are not this irrational and just shift blame left and right. How many NBA PGs got 4 years of free reign to be marginally better than his backups ? Rubio comes to my mind , Collison as well, but list of that type of PGs is short. I also can't shake up feeling that Hennigan did lot of bad moves with mindset that Payton is long term PG solution.

[Audi]

I would probably never argue that much against Payton if his fans are not this irrational and just shift blame left and right. How many NBA PGs got 4 years of free reign to be marginally better than his backups ? Rubio comes to my mind , Collison as well, but list of that type of PGs is short. I also can't shake up feeling that Hennigan did lot of bad moves with mindset that Payton is long term PG solution.

I'm just hesitant to accept that Elfrid is only marginally better than his backups without a large enough sample size of those backups facing the starting PG's of the league that you just mentioned, rather than just other bench PGs.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

I would probably never argue that much against Payton if his fans are not this irrational and just shift blame left and right. How many NBA PGs got 4 years of free reign to be marginally better than his backups ? Rubio comes to my mind , Collison as well, but list of that type of PGs is short. I also can't shake up feeling that Hennigan did lot of bad moves with mindset that Payton is long term PG solution.

I'm just hesitant to accept that Elfrid is only marginally better than his backups without a large enough sample size of those backups facing the starting PG's of the league that you just mentioned, rather than just other bench PGs.

If anything it looks like Magic are using a 2 Guard lineup more frequently..

MACK


DJ


EP

[Catledge]

I also can't shake up feeling that Hennigan did lot of bad moves with mindset that Payton is long term PG solution.

Exactly. Belief in Payton is basically why we don't have a star guard named Oladipo right now and why we have passed up on chances to upgrade the pg position.