Fultz: Ranked #29 out of 30 Point Guard

[VFX]

Just curious why this is shocking...Westbrook is national headlines and practically a meme, but he's clearly still superior to Fultz today. Not even worth discussing years ago. They have similar games, both are outdated in era where offenses routinely score 120 (3 at a time) and defenses pack the paint and dare non-shooters (or even just less dangerous shooters) to punish them.

He is really not and I say it as a huge Westbrook fan. Defensively Westbrook is a disaster this season. Watch any of his game and focus on what he does on defense, he is getting abused constantly. And offensively he is a better passer and playmaker, but Fultz is a more efficient scorer who knows his limitations and has a much superior midrange jumper, so overall it's a wash or at most a small advantage to Russ which doesn't come close to negate the defensive gap.

The big difference between the two is that Westbrook averages between 8-10 assists per game. Fultz has half of that on a good night.

You don’t need a volume scorer to be an efficient and effective point guard in the league. Jordan Poole can earn a contract as a bench volume scorer. I’d rather have Holiday or prime Lowry.

The idea is that your starting point guard just can’t have major flaws in their game and also be mediocre at setting up other positions on offense. It’s not really a huge ask as one of the best 30 guys at the position in the league.

The knock on Fultz is the same reason why he’s on the bottom of these lists. He makes no sense next to the two main guys and his skill is duplicative. You can’t hide his weaknesses when it happens to be the teams main problem.

[Skybox]

Just curious why this is shocking...Westbrook is national headlines and practically a meme, but he's clearly still superior to Fultz today. Not even worth discussing years ago. They have similar games, both are outdated in era where offenses routinely score 120 (3 at a time) and defenses pack the paint and dare non-shooters (or even just less dangerous shooters) to punish them.

He is really not and I say it as a huge Westbrook fan. Defensively Westbrook is a disaster this season. Watch any of his game and focus on what he does on defense, he is getting abused constantly. And offensively he is a better passer and playmaker, but Fultz is a more efficient scorer who knows his limitations and has a much superior midrange jumper, so overall it's a wash or at most a small advantage to Russ which doesn't come close to negate the defensive gap.

I disagree overall but I value some of your points...Russ ferociously drives the game when he's out there and he doesn't even consider that he has any limitations. That's what makes him so special but also what makes him unable/unwilling to concede and tone down his game to age gracefully. Fultz' limitations are well-known and, unfortunately, given his 3pt shooting form, I'm afraid they're fatal. I'd normally give a guy his age a lot more hope for improvement, but the way his shooting form changes from deep is a scary sign, IMO, that he is today what he will be tomorrow. You're right about Fultz' defense, he's been really good this season.

I don't want Russ or Tre Jones as our PG, it's just a comparison based on my ideal for today's PG...Ja Morant shoots about 32% from 3, but he's a threat to go for 45 pts if you dare to ignore him. I'm looking at Scoot the same way...the willingness to shoot it is the biggest hurdle I see for Fultz. The fact that he knows his limitations doesn't comfort me...his limitations are the problem. Ja's not a good 3pt shooter, but he gets to the line 8+ times a game, dishes 8+ apg, and scores 27 ppg...he's the new Russ. Fultz is, unfortunately neither a poor man's Steph or a poor man's Ja/prime Russ...he's stuck in the middle of nowhere.

*Unrelated, but Bol is another guy who, charmingly, has no concept of his limitations...he has no right making the wild drives he (used to) makes routinely and it's fun. He doesn't accept the fact that he's a bad dribbler, so he just dribbles - and sometimes it works He's got some of that West Beast confidence in him (without Russ' HOF skillset).

[Skin]

This thread is ban worthy. Not falling for this trolling effort but nice try.

[Skybox]

This thread is ban worthy. Not falling for this trolling effort but nice try.

You're upset that Sporting News is trolling you or just anyone that disagrees with you?

[Skybox]

https://www.facebook.com/TheOrlandoMagicNation/photos/a.378072278932742/8847457295327489/?__cft__[0]=AZXte8VLEC-n7wwRgZ4Lm1L3JOhjejLJHlp7x3pwm_BBxb-7zfKUzBqBuDLvIOkxdCgUdTFr89hTpr5VRjujBqgM-qLDGDBiBCT03QgQfKpThV0JPV2kvbZ97_oX_Q3eMf3E_F_wmSVsL3JAddP8VgAAf8CKDZ_VC4OtVf2m6ae--vePFTDj0wSMIzz-DvbCPUsf-h9_ZjHvoqf4wAlsphi4&__tn__=EH-R

just came across this...maybe a trade?

[Skin]

This thread is ban worthy. Not falling for this trolling effort but nice try.

You're upset that Sporting News is trolling you or just anyone that disagrees with you?

Braddah man posted an article from Oct 2022. Yeah, troll effort.

[Knightro]

Fultz is pretty clearly in the bottom third among starting point guards. Somewhere between 20th and 30th.

Regardless of whether that's 21st or 29th, it's not good enough.

[JoshuaPotter]

This thread is ban worthy. Not falling for this trolling effort but nice try.

Agree, the initial post didn't pass the sniff test. Present feeling towards Fultz we might have a known disagreement on. Even we see a troll a mile away.

Fultz is pretty clearly in the bottom third among starting point guards. Somewhere between 20th and 30th.

Regardless of whether that's 21st or 29th, it's not good enough.

+1 The guard position needs an overhaul. For the record, I Like Fultz, Cole, Suggs as the individuals they are. It doesn't change that even with G Harris (he is quiet, don't know much about him.) Our backcourt is easily 21-30th in the league. Needs improvement is simply an understatement.

[KillMonger]

I really like Fultz but if you look around the league there are really no mediocre starting pgs unless they're starting due to a situation(injury, etc). Fultz issue on offense will always bring him down until he gets past whatever is causing it. For me the problem is deeper when you consider he's itching for a new contract.... For me I'm not sure markelle as he is now is the point guard I want to throw a big bag at with such flaws in his game. The point guard position is too important to be mediocre.... You can get away with a Gary Harris starting at the SG position but a mediocre point? It limits your ceiling imo

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[MasterGMer]

I really like Fultz but if you look around the league there are really no mediocre starting pgs unless they're starting due to a situation(injury, etc). Fultz issue on offense will always bring him down until he gets past whatever is causing it. For me the problem is deeper when you consider he's itching for a new contract.... For me I'm not sure markelle as he is now is the point guard I want to throw a big bag at with such flaws in his game. The point guard position is too important to be mediocre.... You can get away with a Gary Harris starting at the SG position but a mediocre point? It limits your ceiling imo

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Fultz is not mediocre, he is just an average starting PG. Even though these two things are similar, but they are not the same.

DJ Augustine could be mediocre. Rafer Alston could be mediocre. Why? Because of their age and upside.

I know Fultz is having a good season. But he is still average. We need to zoom out and look at the league. LeMelo Ball could be ranked barely Top 10 at PG. But he is a franchise player.

I agree, we need better star power at our guard spot. But Fultz is not mediocre


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[byeganyo]

Just curious why this is shocking...Westbrook is national headlines and practically a meme, but he's clearly still superior to Fultz today.

Today, ok, but who cares, we should think about tomorrow. I'll have Fultz around 19-20th place among PGs and ahead of Westbrook, if we have to take a PG for the next season. And ahead of Tre Jones, of course, who is worse shooter than Fultz. Still not good enough, but i think there is a middle ground between "Fultz is a cornerstone of this team" and "he should be cut", both camps should find it somehow.
he is a player with holes in his resume, but its obvious he is playing better than ever. Maybe he can find another gear, maybe he cant, i think no one really knows the answer now. Even without 3pt shot he has been above average scorer in 2023, which is surprising for me.

[MasterGMer]

Just curious why this is shocking...Westbrook is national headlines and practically a meme, but he's clearly still superior to Fultz today.

Today, ok, but who cares, we should think about tomorrow. I'll have Fultz around 19-20th place among PGs and ahead of Westbrook, if we have to take a PG for the next season. And ahead of Tre Jones, of course, who is worse shooter than Fultz. Still not good enough, but i think there is a middle ground between "Fultz is a cornerstone of this team" and "he should be cut", both camps should find it somehow.
he is a player with holes in his resume, but its obvious he is playing better than ever. Maybe he can find another gear, maybe he cant, i think no one really knows the answer now. Even without 3pt shot he has been above average scorer in 2023, which is surprising for me.

Fultz shot 52% last 10 games. He could be our most efficient scorer.


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[Skybox]

Just curious why this is shocking...Westbrook is national headlines and practically a meme, but he's clearly still superior to Fultz today.

Today, ok, but who cares, we should think about tomorrow. I'll have Fultz around 19-20th place among PGs and ahead of Westbrook, if we have to take a PG for the next season. And ahead of Tre Jones, of course, who is worse shooter than Fultz. Still not good enough, but i think there is a middle ground between "Fultz is a cornerstone of this team" and "he should be cut", both camps should find it somehow.
he is a player with holes in his resume, but its obvious he is playing better than ever. Maybe he can find another gear, maybe he cant, i think no one really knows the answer now. Even without 3pt shot he has been above average scorer in 2023, which is surprising for me.

My view of him is probably not as extreme as it sounds to some...the point of waiving him is not that he's worthless, it's that he's nowhere near his $17m salary and his contract provides an out. It's much more math than emotion...has he been an above average scorer among starting PG's? (I haven't checked, but I wouldn't guess he matches up well, on a statistical basis, with his peers).

We keep calling him an unselfish, pass-first PG but his assist #'s aren't good. I think it's kind of a cop out because he doesn't really score that much and he doesn't get to the line much, which are important for lead guards in today's NBA. His presence is definitely felt on the floor, but when the game's over - I never feel like he played that big a part, statistically...Kind of the opposite of those guys who hit you for 28 and you don't realize it until you glance up at the jumbotron in the 3rd quarter and go "is that right?".

[zaymon]

Fultz is not really a point guard. He is a shooting guard who cant shoot or undersized wing. Similar to Suggs minus defense. That archetype has no place on a good team. He doesnt understand how to play pick and roll, he loses the handle in most crucial moments. His go to move is iso midrange shot..... He is hiding behind Franz, Paolo and Wendell pretending he can run offense. We lost all games he scored 19+ points becouse teams drool when he handles the ball and tries to score or playmake.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Just feels like a square peg getting shoved into a round hole..

[byeganyo]

We keep calling him an unselfish, pass-first PG but his assist #'s aren't good. I think it's kind of a cop out because he doesn't really score that much and he doesn't get to the line much, which are important for lead guards in today's NBA. His presence is definitely felt on the floor, but when the game's over - I never feel like he played that big a part, statistically...Kind of the opposite of those guys who hit you for 28 and you don't realize it until you glance up at the jumbotron in the 3rd quarter and go "is that right?".

I dont think he is a pass first pg, he is exactly what was expected after the college - a score first pg... minus the 3pt shoot. and thats such a shame, but well if he wasnt broken he wouldnt end up here. another thing - in this one season in college he got to the line pretty frequently, that doesnt happen here too and looking through the numbers his ftr is still bellow the league average, although there is a slight improvement.



this is him since january, which puts his TS on a .595 and that will place him 11th among the playes listed as PG according to basketball reference, so in the past 2 months he is respectable scorer even with his limitations.
So probably he deserved to be kept for the next season too and then near the deadline big decisions will have to be made.

[KillMonger]

I really like Fultz but if you look around the league there are really no mediocre starting pgs unless they're starting due to a situation(injury, etc). Fultz issue on offense will always bring him down until he gets past whatever is causing it. For me the problem is deeper when you consider he's itching for a new contract.... For me I'm not sure markelle as he is now is the point guard I want to throw a big bag at with such flaws in his game. The point guard position is too important to be mediocre.... You can get away with a Gary Harris starting at the SG position but a mediocre point? It limits your ceiling imo

Sent from my Pixel 7 using RealGM mobile app

Fultz is not mediocre, he is just an average starting PG. Even though these two things are similar, but they are not the same.

DJ Augustine could be mediocre. Rafer Alston could be mediocre. Why? Because of their age and upside.

I know Fultz is having a good season. But he is still average. We need to zoom out and look at the league. LeMelo Ball could be ranked barely Top 10 at PG. But he is a franchise player.

I agree, we need better star power at our guard spot. But Fultz is not mediocre


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Just curious with Fultz, if he shows up next season with the same flaws would you be comfortable throwing the big bag at him?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using RealGM mobile app

[VFX]

Just curious why this is shocking...Westbrook is national headlines and practically a meme, but he's clearly still superior to Fultz today.

Today, ok, but who cares, we should think about tomorrow. I'll have Fultz around 19-20th place among PGs and ahead of Westbrook, if we have to take a PG for the next season. And ahead of Tre Jones, of course, who is worse shooter than Fultz. Still not good enough, but i think there is a middle ground between "Fultz is a cornerstone of this team" and "he should be cut", both camps should find it somehow.
he is a player with holes in his resume, but its obvious he is playing better than ever. Maybe he can find another gear, maybe he cant, i think no one really knows the answer now. Even without 3pt shot he has been above average scorer in 2023, which is surprising for me.

My view of him is probably not as extreme as it sounds to some...the point of waiving him is not that he's worthless, it's that he's nowhere near his $17m salary and his contract provides an out. It's much more math than emotion...has he been an above average scorer among starting PG's? (I haven't checked, but I wouldn't guess he matches up well, on a statistical basis, with his peers).

We keep calling him an unselfish, pass-first PG but his assist #'s aren't good. I think it's kind of a cop out because he doesn't really score that much and he doesn't get to the line much, which are important for lead guards in today's NBA. His presence is definitely felt on the floor, but when the game's over - I never feel like he played that big a part, statistically...Kind of the opposite of those guys who hit you for 28 and you don't realize it until you glance up at the jumbotron in the 3rd quarter and go "is that right?".

This is what drives me crazy about this topic.

Everyone calls Fultz a playmaker due to that fact that he doesn’t shoot or get to the line. I guess you could call him a playmaker for himself only…

None of this would be a topic of discussion at all if he got to the line 3x a game and had 6-8 assists per game. It’s just insurmountably more difficult when you don’t stretch the floor.

[Ducklett]

Fultz is pretty clearly in the bottom third among starting point guards. Somewhere between 20th and 30th.

Regardless of whether that's 21st or 29th, it's not good enough.

And the guy the board wants to throw max money at is ranked poorly too. Awesome!

[HotelVitale]

I am interested in how the Forum feels here...

I've seen 2-3 articles where Fultz was ranked #29 of 30 point guards in the league.

From a national standpoint, is he really that bad?

Thanks

Example: Top NBA point guards for 2022-23: Ranking all 30 starters

Going through the list, yes I would have Fultz above the 29 he is listed at. For example, Fultz is better than Lonzo Ball, who is physically incapable of playing basketball.


But interestingly, sorting on RAPTOR (which has players that only sometimes are PGs in its sort), Fultz is the 58th "best" PG.
THat's the pepe narrative that Fultz is not a starting quality guard for the NBA.


Finally, by qualified PER, Fultz is the 18th best PG.


So: what is it? It is interesting how different RAPTOR and PER are in ranking lists. Very poor overlap between them.

..

PER is basically just a volume stat, how much pure numbers are you producing? And it favors certain stats too. It’s a very old and primitive stat and no one who messes with advanced stats even glances at it now (people definitely use some other faulty stats but will say ‘I know it has X limitations’ but PER is less respected and literally doesn’t get cited at all anymore).