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Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good.

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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#21 » by ORLMagicGirl15 » Mon Feb 17, 2025 2:17 am

three3d wrote:
msmoore66 wrote:So what you are saying is addition by subtraction, trade him for a pack of crisps?

In all seriousness, massive overreaction. Nothing we didn't already know about their games, but also it's not news that they are both still young, and both have had an injury impacted season.

As mentioned in this thread, anyone can make a youtube video and choose what data they speak to.



Lol can tell you only read comments instead of listening to the linked content

That is how your comments are reading.
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#22 » by The-Stallion70 » Mon Feb 17, 2025 2:37 am

msmoore66 wrote:So what you are saying is addition by subtraction, trade him for a pack of crisps?

In all seriousness, massive overreaction. Nothing we didn't already know about their games, but also it's not news that they are both still young, and both have had an injury impacted season.

As mentioned in this thread, anyone can make a youtube video and choose what data they speak to.

If you watched the video you'd see that theyre not being selective about what data they're looking at though, these are aggregate measures.
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#23 » by KillMonger » Mon Feb 17, 2025 5:09 am

three3d wrote:
msmoore66 wrote:So what you are saying is addition by subtraction, trade him for a pack of crisps?

In all seriousness, massive overreaction. Nothing we didn't already know about their games, but also it's not news that they are both still young, and both have had an injury impacted season.

As mentioned in this thread, anyone can make a youtube video and choose what data they speak to.



Lol can tell you only read comments instead of listening to the linked content
Sorry but I got to agree with msmoore66, like what is the intention here? You're basically in a room full of hardcores people here should know where our bread is buttered and where it isn't...it's giving agenda pushing, especially considering the context.....like "eye-opening" to who exactly, it shouldn't be us, we're the hardcores

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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#24 » by GelbeWand09 » Mon Feb 17, 2025 7:15 am

Yea nothing new we doesnt knew for at least 2 years just that post injury Paolo is so bad that you can't sugar coat it with old school per game stats anymore. Franz was much more impactful in every Season so far.
As long as his efficiency doesn't improve he will always be at best a slightly above average impact player with superstar like games in every 4th-8th game. I mean this was always the risk drafting him. He wasn't a good finisher at the rim in Duke already or a good shooter. Now we have to hope he becomes a 60%TS guy with improvement and the help of better spacing and a real PG.
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#25 » by tiderulz » Mon Feb 17, 2025 12:43 pm

three3d wrote:
ORLMagicGirl15 wrote:
three3d wrote:

Paolo is bad at some really crucial things, don’t know if a pg can help that or not

So this whole post is to sit here and say “Paolo is bad, Franz is better”? I’m good, I am not going to tear down a player to build another one up.


Lol look I’m just sharing a video that does a good breakdown of Paolo and puts some perspective of what his numbers represent. Little strange that you’d think talking about his stats and percentages are “tearing down a player” without actually watching the clip.

put a young player in a role that isnt his best, when he has even asked for help and a real PG, of course his efficiency numbers are not going to look great. Paolo is talented, but forced into a role he doesnt want, add into it that he was injured this year and coming back off it. the injury seems a major factor for this year.

also, using Net Rating very subjective stat. All the bench players were higher than him. No one thinks any of those player better than Paolo
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#26 » by basketballRob » Mon Feb 17, 2025 1:03 pm

I'd rather see the offense run through Franz. He goes long stretches without touching the ball with Paolo in.

Paolo needs to start taking better shots. Eventually, the team will turn on him. I remember the Celtics have a team only meeting a few years ago right before a game in Orlando. Smart was calling Tatum and Brown out for taking bad shots.

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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#27 » by JoshuaPotter » Mon Feb 17, 2025 1:45 pm

Refuse to watch video. Thread already jacked. Just create another Paolo elephant thread. You get perhaps one of the best 1-2 F combos in the league and before the ink has dried on the max extension you point out weaknesses to suggest this isn't the best direction to head as if it isn't our only realistic destination.

We are a bunch of ride or die people here. While there are players i'd potentially swap 1 for 1 and yes maybe even throw in a couple picks. Their names might be Wemby, Luka, Joker, even Marshal or Tatum. I still think that if we committed to Franz + Paolo and built around them that in 10 years we will have multiple windows where we can win a championship or yes even contend and be taken seriously. If not actually win.
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#28 » by blabla » Mon Feb 17, 2025 1:54 pm

From an article that came out today:

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There is a somewhat straightforward reason that Wagner is underrated: He’s an elite two-way player, and defense remains largely out of sight, out of mind, when we’re evaluating the top players. But his plus-minus numbers make clear that he’s truly one of the most efficient players in the league. In fact, xRAPM has him tied for fourth-best player in the league.

So why is he flying so far under the radar? Aside from defense being undervalued generally, Wagner might also get less recognition because he doesn't stand out in any one skill, like blocks or steals. He's no Victor Wembanyama or Alex Caruso, and he probably won't get any DPOY consideration. He’s just really effective.

Offensively, he's good at several things, especially one skill that's extremely easy to overlook: Taking care of the ball and not turning it over. That gives him an assist-to-turnover ratio of better than 2-to-1, which is saying something for a 6’10” forward in a Magic offense where assists are difficult to come by.

Perhaps it’s hard to accept that Wagner is one of the elite players on the planet. But in addition to the plus-minus stats, we have seen him doing it on a big stage: Just flash back to the 2023 FIBA World Cup, where Wagner and Dennis Schröder led Germany to the title, beating Team USA in the process.

Rest of the article here: https://www.roycewebb.com/p/what-stats-and-the-eye-test-reveal (paywalled)
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#29 » by three3d » Mon Feb 17, 2025 2:13 pm

KillMonger wrote:
three3d wrote:
msmoore66 wrote:So what you are saying is addition by subtraction, trade him for a pack of crisps?

In all seriousness, massive overreaction. Nothing we didn't already know about their games, but also it's not news that they are both still young, and both have had an injury impacted season.

As mentioned in this thread, anyone can make a youtube video and choose what data they speak to.



Lol can tell you only read comments instead of listening to the linked content
Sorry but I got to agree with msmoore66, like what is the intention here? You're basically in a room full of hardcores people here should know where our bread is buttered and where it isn't...it's giving agenda pushing, especially considering the context.....like "eye-opening" to who exactly, it shouldn't be us, we're the hardcores

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It’s one thing to see it and know it, it’s a completely different thing when you put some actual data and context into the research as the video did. Again I’ve seen the same things you guys have and as a fan it’s hard to be unbiased.

Paolo’s 3 levels of scoring PERCENTAGE and PERCENTILE

RIM- 56.9 % puts him in the 25th percentile
MID- 39.4% 37th percentile
3PT- 30.3%. 15th percentile

The percentile’s are eye open when you can actually SEE where he’s ranking amongst other players
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#30 » by three3d » Mon Feb 17, 2025 2:22 pm

JoshuaPotter wrote:Refuse to watch video. Thread already jacked. Just create another Paolo elephant thread. You get perhaps one of the best 1-2 F combos in the league and before the ink has dried on the max extension you point out weaknesses to suggest this isn't the best direction to head as if it isn't our only realistic destination.

We are a bunch of ride or die people here. While there are players i'd potentially swap 1 for 1 and yes maybe even throw in a couple picks. Their names might be Wemby, Luka, Joker, even Marshal or Tatum. I still think that if we committed to Franz + Paolo and built around them that in 10 years we will have multiple windows where we can win a championship or yes even contend and be taken seriously. If not actually win.




Do you EVEN realize the whole point of the elephant thread was about getting Paolo and Franz to both be effective together at the same time lol? It was about it being Paolo AND Franz not Paolo OR Franz. And the video you REFUSE to watch actually has good information in it. I want it to be Paolo AND Franz but the numbers and % and proving why it has been Paolo OR Franz more then the other way around.
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#31 » by AdamTheGreek » Mon Feb 17, 2025 3:02 pm

This thread should be locked due to malicious intent.
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#32 » by CocoaFan » Mon Feb 17, 2025 3:43 pm

These types of threads and articles like Elaine Blum's "Franz Wagner has a chance to replace Paolo Banchero as Orlando's super star" on Orlando Magic Daily do nothing but provide negativity and divide the fan base and potentially the team. There's no rule that you can't have multiple super stars and as fans we should support both. Paolo is going through a rough time trying to come back from injury and people need to take that into account. He's a young player that's been asked to provide a big part of our offense and his efficiency will improve with time. Give the guy a break and stop piling on.
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#33 » by Skybox » Mon Feb 17, 2025 4:56 pm

CocoaFan wrote:These types of threads and articles like Elaine Blum's "Franz Wagner has a chance to replace Paolo Banchero as Orlando's super star" on Orlando Magic Daily do nothing but provide negativity and divide the fan base and potentially the team. There's no rule that you can't have multiple super stars and as fans we should support both. Paolo is going through a rough time trying to come back from injury and people need to take that into account. He's a young player that's been asked to provide a big part of our offense and his efficiency will improve with time. Give the guy a break and stop piling on.


She's generally awful...her and PRR are about this awful modern problem of "Content Creation" which is all about a quota regardless of anything valid to suggest or talk about. Some of the stuff I glimpse at is so completely off-base I have to wonder if this is just a job, not a personal interest for her.

He's gotten way more interesting lately, IMO...maybe because he's a frustrated fan at heart.
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#34 » by three3d » Mon Feb 17, 2025 6:05 pm

CocoaFan wrote:These types of threads and articles like Elaine Blum's "Franz Wagner has a chance to replace Paolo Banchero as Orlando's super star" on Orlando Magic Daily do nothing but provide negativity and divide the fan base and potentially the team. There's no rule that you can't have multiple super stars and as fans we should support both. Paolo is going through a rough time trying to come back from injury and people need to take that into account. He's a young player that's been asked to provide a big part of our offense and his efficiency will improve with time. Give the guy a break and stop piling on.



Dividing the fan base by talking about a players stats and percentiles lol seriously? Because I address statistical facts doesn’t mean I dislike Paolo, hell it doesn’t even mean I think Paolo sucks to be honest because I know he doesn’t suck. But those numbers paint a clear picture and it’s a picture that can be changed. You say Paolo is going through a rough time trying to come back from an injury, the numbers say differently.

Year 1 Paolo
Rim- 61.3% 40th percentile
Mid range - 36.6%. 19th percentile
3PT- 29.8 %. 13th percentile

Year 2 Paolo
Rim- 60.8%. 42nd percentile
Mid range- 39.4% 33rd percentile
3PT- 33.8% 33rd percentile


We’ve all seen him missing the bunny shots around the rim, year 2 he was in the bottom 42% of the league in finishing around the rim. That’s pretty crazy when you see those numbers. And it’s also why I’ve said before Paolo can be suck a great player by just fixing a few things. Just looking at his stats alone they look good but when you actually put perspective on them, you can see how much better he could be.
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#35 » by 89Magicfan » Mon Feb 17, 2025 6:23 pm

AdamTheGreek wrote:This thread should be locked due to malicious intent.



Yup.

There’s a world where Paolo can become more efficient. That there’s room to improve. There’s a world where Paolo and Franz can dominate together. Instead this thread is about one or the other. Smh.
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#36 » by Ducklett » Mon Feb 17, 2025 6:58 pm

When they write this clickbait crap the reactions in this thread are what they are looking for because engagement = money.

Yall all fell for it and I wouldn't be shocked if OP also had something to do with the video they posted.

Paolo sucks post injury, it is what it is. Maybe he gets better, maybe he doesn't. Maybe we trade him over the summer for Booker. Who the hell knows. What I can tell you is raging out at other Magic fans over percentages and stats when you could just go rewatch the Cavs series last year and see what players did what is insane to me.
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#37 » by jezzerinho » Mon Feb 17, 2025 7:03 pm

Listen, Paolo finished last season and started this season looking like a stud. So much so that when he went down it seemed like the roof was falling.

Then Point Franz happened (Punkt Franz?). His relationship with Goga in the PnR transformed briefly Orlando's offensive game. The perimeter players looked better, the bench with Mo was still v solid, TDS looked increasingly at home.

Then Franz goes down and Suggs came in and was - even more briefly - a hero.

Paolo Banchero is just about old enough to order a beer and now he has to process that - while he was absent - other people have forged ahead AND the playstyle that suited him was supplanted to a large extent with a better one.

As a pro sportspeople, sure maybe he needed to be more poised and mature about his new reality and look to embrace the possibility of a different role. But as a v young guy with zero big world experience it was probably a pretty big mindfück. I would be fairly sure that's a big component of PB's supposed "regression". He's in a new world order. Maybe the lockerroom dynamic has shifted subtly.

Whatever the reality, it's waaaaaaay too early to form any opinions on whether Paolo can be a more efficient offensive force.

This season has been a shîtshow, through injury and gross ineptitude by the GM. The first you just have to push through. The second is a boat anchor hanging around the necks of this franchise.
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#38 » by VFX » Mon Feb 17, 2025 7:06 pm

As it was stated at the beginning of the season.

The eye test shows us what the numbers seem to back up.

The offense simply isn’t efficient without a distributor to get either guy in better positions to score. They are OK but not elite at running the offense at the point of attack. They are better scoring options.
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#39 » by pepe1991 » Mon Feb 17, 2025 7:14 pm

fendilim wrote:Paolo will always be bad analytically, but he is the player you need as a go-to guy. Because he can score anywhere on the floor.


I can't name single star player in nba history who had bad analytic data and was best player on championship team?
You know why? Because analytical data just shows what players do on the floor based on their performances.
If player has "bad analytics" it just means he isn't that good of a player, not because data says it but because his playing/Playstyle/performances aren't adding much to wins.


People just overcomplicate what sport's analytics really are. They are stopwatch in race. They don't impact race, just give you perspective. You can look at it like a semi finals Olympic race. You have two groups, in one group guy goes 7th of 8 and relative to his opposition he is "slow".
But in other semi final race winner is - fastest among competition but his passing time is below 7th in other race.

Now it's important to ask yourself what does that mean ( context of data) . More data you have, closer to truth you get.

For example, retrospective of EPM in years when EPM didn't exist.
Two out of 5 leaders in EPM in 2007 were Ginobili and Duncan. Guess who won title with 4 losses through playoffs ?
Neither Duncan or Manu had some eye popping numbers, mostly because neither were shot chasing (14 & 11 FGA ). But final result proves EPM , as data - works.
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Re: Eye opening analytical breakdown of Paolo and Franz, wow this doesn’t look good. 

Post#40 » by three3d » Mon Feb 17, 2025 7:24 pm

Ducklett wrote:When they write this clickbait crap the reactions in this thread are what they are looking for because engagement = money.

Yall all fell for it and I wouldn't be shocked if OP also had something to do with the video they posted.

Paolo sucks post injury, it is what it is. Maybe he gets better, maybe he doesn't. Maybe we trade him over the summer for Booker. Who the hell knows. What I can tell you is raging out at other Magic fans over percentages and stats when you could just go rewatch the Cavs series last year and see what players did what is insane to me.



Lol that’s a REACH to suggest I have something to do with the posted video. Wow!! Look the stats are official NBA stats, take 5 minutes of your time to look them up yourself. Raging out at other Magic fans, huh?

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