Why Kurt Thomas Deal Fell Thru/Battie Update (Denton)

[NEM]

good job otis...im glad we didnt give up ANY picks, let alone 3

[magicmamma]

This is bull. This is the same old Otis stuff that whenever a move isn't made they were asking for the moon that is why. You really think Seattle wanted 3 first round picks for KT. I don't even think that is possible.

Sorry this is why I'm not a Denton fan. Instead of just saying hey I didn't want to trade any draft picks it has to be well Seattle was asking for the moon. Seattle traded him for 1 first round pick. How you have an article saying we would have done the deal for 1 first round pick when that was what the deal was done for.

I'm inclined to agree with richboy here. After every failed trade, Denton says that while others were reporting that "they" were asking for A, B and C, in reality they wanted A,B,C,D, AND E.

WARNING : Conspiracy theory!

This sounds like an attempt to mislead without technically lying. They might have "wanted" even "asked for" something without having that as the final "take it or leave it" offer. Denton (and nobody else) reports this, making him an insider -- the only one Otis talks to. It seems to me that Denton reports what Otis wants the public to think. Can Denton get information from him? After the Ariza trade, someone asked Denton on his forum if Ariza had asked for a trade. He responded that he would ask Otis "tonight." He never had anything more to say on the subject.

[craig01]

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Actually its somewhat irrelevant. We don't need to guess why Otis didn't make a move. He told us POINT BLANK. He didn't want to trade JJ who never plays, he didn't want to be without a third string PG but loves the team without a PF and he had to be fiscallly responsible after spending 118 million on one player.

Until Otis defenders can wave a magic wand and make all of his own statements disappear no one has to prove anything else.

I'm not an Otis defender nor a basher either, but your post is to the point.

His statement is curious to say the least.

My guess is that we'll have to wait for the master plan to unfold....LOL

Still, was there really any faith that Smith could have pulled off something big without giving away the store?

After his decisions made over the summer, did Smith get tagged with "sucker" on stamped on his forehead? Thus the supposed unreasonable offers that were made to him?

I don't know..........

[Just Plain Mark]

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As a matter of professional courtesy GMs don't go around telling people what other teams offered. Rarely happens so that argument has no weight

I disagree strongly that GM's don't tell "might have been" trade details. See the Zach Randolph-Bucks trade, see the Jason Kidd-Mavs trade, see the Curry/Marion rumors. Even if you believe that there is some professional courtesy, in this case, if Otis is lying, then all Sam Presti has to do is say so. If Sam doesn't call Otis out, then what he said about Seattle's asking price is probably true.

Actually its somewhat irrelevant. We don't need to guess why Otis didn't make a move. He told us POINT BLANK. He didn't want to trade JJ who never plays, he didn't want to be without a third string PG but loves the team without a PF and he had to be fiscallly responsible after spending 118 million on one player.

Until Otis defenders can wave a magic wand and make all of his own statements disappear no one has to prove anything else.

I'll agree with you on the JJ and 3rd string PG statements; those both hurt Otis' credibility. However, the fact that Seattle set a completely unreasonable price, and then got less trade value by dealing with a former employer makes me think that Otis is right on this trade only.

[UCFJayBird]

this whole forum is ridiculous how trade talks. Otis didn't make a trade, let's crucify him! Oh wait? They're saying they asked for too much? NO WAY! Otis must be lying! There's no way he actually made a good decision!

[TNMagicFan]

I'm not calling for his head or crucifying him . If he says they ask for too much I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt . I'm just very disappointed because I expected those expirings to help us upgrade our team . It's not the end of the world though ,we still have a good team

[UCFJayBird]

I agree with that. I would've liked to have seen a move made IF it would've been for the right price. But I think a lot of Magic fans are being unreasonable. They wanted to see a trade cause everyone else was trading, and didn't care if the cost was too much. And if Otis and the press says the price WAS too much, people call them liars because they don't want to believe it.

I'm not saying to believe everything they say or everything you read. But I just find it ridiculous that so many people are so angry over the fact that a move wasn't made that they're going to disagree and not believe anything they hear that would suggest the right move wasn't there.

I mean the article even goes over how they negotiated and how Otis was willing to give up 1 first rounder, but Seattle wanted 2 and Otis balked at it, which is the right thing to do.

Even with Thomas we would've have been contenders IMO. We still would've finished about the same, and we would've lost a 1st for no reason.

[TNMagicFan]

I wasn't interested in KT anyway . He would have helped us this year , but we aren't going to win a title this year . Any deal for me would have had to be for a guy that would help us this year and into the future .

[golfreak]

Seatte is freakin stupid.
Magic's 1st round would have been 5-10 spots higher than SA.
Anyhow, I wouoldn't have traded a 1st for KT anyway.
Not worth it just for the rest of the season.
I would have traded a 1st for Wilcox though.

[richboy]

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You think that they would lie about specific requests in print? Sam Presti can now easily claim something different and make Otis look like a fool.

I tend to agree with what theif said, they probably were trying to see how desparate the Magic really are AND they gave San Antonio HUGE discount. How is SA's 2009 pick worth more than Orlando's? That's just dumb.

So, unless someone proves the Sonics asked for only one pick then I'll admit that Otis made the right move on Kurt Thomas.

He already been caught. This summer he did the exact same thing. The Sonics had a full roster. Couldn't handle a trade where they took on a bunch of players. Why didn't we do a sign and trade with the Sonics for Rashard to open up more cap space. By Otis because Seattle asked for like 5 players and draft picks. Obviously Presti must have thought he was the GM of the Mariners with all the players he would have had on the roster then. The talk in Seattle was don't listen to Otis. That he didn't communicate with the Sonics very much at all.

This is a pattern for Otis. Last year after the deadline passed suddenly he comes out and says NJ was asking for all these players. Perhaps people will believe whatever they read. Lets be real. Do you think that a GM that has no draft picks that are even in the rotation. Has pretty much 3 years of nothing in the draft. Was going to send a first round pick for a 3 month rent a player. A player that might not have made the Magic all that much better. Now lets see what makes more sense. Seattle wanted a first round pick and Otis bailed for the reasons above or Seattle asked for a blockbluster deal for a mediocre big man on a 3 month lease.

[lovehoops01]

How many 1st round picks does Seattle have ? It's gotta be alot

I believe I heard that they have 13 over the next six years. Some of them are likely to be late, though -- like I think they got two from Boston and two from Phoenix.

[aleZ]

this whole forum is ridiculous how trade talks. Otis didn't make a trade, let's crucify him!

Guess what, you positive thinkers are always ready to whip out your Otis glasses and start PR-ing the Magic on this board. It's just different opinions, but it's though finding FACTS (not articles written to defend him) showing he's done a great job.

The (excellent) coach we have now is Otis' choice number 2, while Shard is averaging lower stats (and overall play) than Hedo, with one of the stupid-est contracts in the league. This is just reality, my friend.

[lovehoops01]

I guess a lot of it depends on how you look at it. It depends upon what points you plan to put the most emphasis on.

From my point, I can only tell you this. If the Magic finish with 12 more wins in their last 27 games of the regular season, the last time they will have had a better record was 1995-96, the last year Shaq and Penny were here together.

The arena is full or close to full most nights after having a lot of seasons when it wasn't. I am there pretty much every game and can watch every thing that happens on the floor (the things you can and can't see on TV), listen to and/or watch every player and coach interview and read every local newspaper story (as well as national online).

Most nights, the players and coaches seem to be on the same page, the players work hard and they act and talk like they feel like a team. Most of the people that I talk with at the games are nowhere near as angry as many of the posters on this board (except some about the fact that J.J. doesn't play) -- especially many of the angriest posters who don't even live in Orlando and rarely or never go to games (not saying that makes you any less of fans but I'm talking about the people who actually invest money into supporting the team and going to the games). Not saying that there aren't some things they wouldn't like to be done differently, like many would have liked to have seen the team upgrade one spot at the deadline and most hope for better drafts. But for the most part, people are pretty happy -- not saying that the team-can't-get-better happy but pleased that they are showing progress and that this is one of the better products they have seen on the floor in about 10 seasons. They're not calling for anyone's head.

Otis has been in charge of this team now for what...this is his second full season? Most GMs get at least five years to implement a plan unless they are an unmitigated disaster. Otis got Dwight signed long term -- something Gabriel did not get done with Shaq. Otis got rid of a bad contract. After last season, when the team couldn't shoot its way out of a paper bag, he brought in a shooter in free agency, and now it seems almost everyone on the team can shoot pretty well (not saying that it is because of Rashard but it might take a little of the pressure off some of the less-talented scorers). Regardless of how it came about, the team has a quality NBA coach. With the arena deal, the team's future in Orlando is secure, something that was not the case two years ago. It's kinda hard to believe that is all dumb luck.

And I just don't see why it's such a bad thing that fans enjoy these things and why they are considered irrational homers if they do. I am not satisfied that they are a finished product -- and I don't think you'd hear management say they are either. But right now, I'm fine with the direction things are going, and I see no reason to be ripping them like they are the Minnesota Timberwolves.

[maginno]

And I just don't see why it's such a bad thing that fans enjoy these things and why they are considered irrational homers if they do.

Strawman. No one ever made any such statement or even close it implying that. You are making that up out of thin air. You are not an irrational homer if you enjoy a team. You are an irrational homer if your enjoyment of the team clouds rationality. Thats pretty much what being an irrational homer is about.

For example. You don't sit down hear Otis say that he likes the team without a PF, imply that Cookie monster is the answer (and he did), doesn't want to trade his fourth string SG who doesn't play nearly ever for a starting PF, Has to be fiscally responsible as part of his job but signed one guy to 118 million and then stubbornly try to deflect , make up scenarios, and argue with everyone that draws logical conclusions from what Otis has said himself.

Its even worse for those who look at trades that did go down, see the price that those teams agreed on and then claim that the trading team were dumb for taking less than what we were willing to offer. Ummm. Why would they? the more logical conclusion is to ditch the conspiracies theories and fanciful Homer imaginations and see that they weren't offered a better deal by a Gm who thinks the team is fine, has awakened to his fiscal responsibilities, has its cookie monster PF and wants the bench warmed by his 4th string SG?

Stop asking everyone to ignore the obvious. It will never work. Great that you get to go to all the games but you really aren't the spokesman for everyone who does. Those fans that you say are so happy are known to boo quite profusely when we pick up our losing ways at home and several posters here that don't like Otis' track record thus far do attend games.

[Det the Threat]

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I believe I heard that they have 13 over the next six years. Some of them are likely to be late, though -- like I think they got two from Boston and two from Phoenix.

Not true.

Sonics Draft choices are:

2008:
1st round: Sonics, Suns(unprotected)
2nd round: Sonics, Nuggets, Blazers, Hornets/Rockets(worser one)

2009:
1st round: Sonics, Spurs(unprotected)
2nd round: Sonics, Nets

2010:
1st round: Sonics, Suns(unprotected)
2nd round: Sonics

So we've got 13 picks(6 1st rounders and 7 2nd rounders) over the next 3 years.

BTW: I doubt that Presti was asking for 3 1st round picks for Thomas. It probably was your 1st and Redick, while maybe also taking on Wilkins, Watson or Ridnour, but surely not 3 1st rounders.

[spinedoc]

]

So we've got 13 picks(6 1st rounders and 7 2nd rounders) over the next 3 years.

Wow, thats amazing. You will be big time players in the draft for the next three years.

[craig01]

That's a lot of draft picks.

Really, it's almost too many.

[aleZ]

the angriest posters who don't even live in Orlando and rarely or never go to games

So, in order to point out the negatives I should relocate to Orlando and/or become a season ticket holder? You sure you're not Otis himself or someone working for the organization? You watch every single game after all...

Btw, from watching the games on TV I can spot quite a few empty seats during games, but (given what you're saying) it must be my Television acting funny or me being used to the packed soccer arenas of europe.

Either way Lhoops, I'm glad you haven't changed a bit all these years: everyone who's not in love with the front office is not a fan and/or someone who doesn't know jack about basketball. Oh well

[Just Plain Mark]

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He already been caught. This summer he did the exact same thing. The Sonics had a full roster. Couldn't handle a trade where they took on a bunch of players. Why didn't we do a sign and trade with the Sonics for Rashard to open up more cap space. By Otis because Seattle asked for like 5 players and draft picks. Obviously Presti must have thought he was the GM of the Mariners with all the players he would have had on the roster then. The talk in Seattle was don't listen to Otis. That he didn't communicate with the Sonics very much at all.

This is a pattern for Otis. Last year after the deadline passed suddenly he comes out and says NJ was asking for all these players. Perhaps people will believe whatever they read. Lets be real. Do you think that a GM that has no draft picks that are even in the rotation. Has pretty much 3 years of nothing in the draft. Was going to send a first round pick for a 3 month rent a player. A player that might not have made the Magic all that much better. Now lets see what makes more sense. Seattle wanted a first round pick and Otis bailed for the reasons above or Seattle asked for a blockbluster deal for a mediocre big man on a 3 month lease.

There's a difference between Otis being stupid and being a liar. The Rashard deal is evidence of that. Mangino is saying Otis is lying, I'm saying he's not (because I'd doubt he'd lie in print about specifics when others can easily contradict him).

[maginno]

Mangino is saying Otis is telling you the truth when he says that he didn't want to trade JJ a PURE bench player (lol) for a solid PF . He is telling you that Otis is telling you the truth that he thinks cookie monster answers the PF question but people want him to get another. He is telling you that Otis is telling the truth when he says he likes this team just the way it is. Now lets review

Seattle originally sought three first-round picks from the Magic in addition to the expiring deals of Carlos Arroyo ($4 million) and Pat Garrity ($3.8 million). When the Magic obviously passed on that deal, Seattle dropped its demand to two first-round picks and the two expiring deals.

Did you all read that? Can we all drop the nonsense about wanting three picks. this is how it is ALWAYS done in negotiations. You start out with the highest price and go down. So they went down to two. lets continue

Smith would have been willing to give up one first-round pick and $8 million worth of expiring deals, but not first-round picks in 2008 and 2010. He deemed that to be too steep a price to rent the 35-year-old Thomas for 26 regular-season games and the playoffs.

Hmmm. "Would have been willing" but doesn't actually say the offer was made and certainly doesn't state that they would have been willing to take JJ in return, So much for lying. it doesn't even say what the offer was or even that it was made and turned down. Denton writes it in all the language of a hypothetical.. In the entire article it never says what exactly we offered. When you get these home town reports you should notice that you are getting only the information that makes things look good from one side.

For the record thomas wouldn't have been my target either but given all of the things that Otis has said he wasn't going to do we had no shot at the others either.

So is Otis lying. No just like most executives that can't get the job done - just selective with the facts as I suppose I would be too.