The Tobias Harris Situation

[woosah]

lol. I don't think you watch Tobes play by your answer. Thanks though.

i dont watch him play much DUH...im in nyc. lol. thats why i came to the magic site to ask. lol

*sigh* You made a lot of judgments in asking that suggest that you do know. They have sports packages everywhere so that's no excuse, but if you're gonna say he wants to come there you should have reasons why. How about research at least a little before making statements? DUH is right, you don't know jack. He's gonna leave for sentimental reasons and not consider his game? ugh Knick fans.

[Blue_and_Whte]

i think "skin" made a great point on why harris has been benched - control the market by controlling his mins/stats. thats way teams wont be impressed and they wont offer him much. that tells me orlando HOPES to keep harris but not at a high price. well youre messing with the wrong team. lol. the knicks will overspend on AWFUL backup players let alone good ones with potential. i fully expect the knicks to (foolishly) offer him the max (hes good but he aint that good). the knicks will strike out on gasol, alridge, dragic and others. theyll panic by offering at least 20mill to harris. i dont think orlando will match that

I don't think Vaughn is holding Harris back so that he can't capitalize on a pay raise. That would be extremely unethical. He's coming off the bench because Vaughn is looking for a combination of players that will right the ship.

[Skin]

i think "skin" made a great point on why harris has been benched - control the market by controlling his mins/stats. thats way teams wont be impressed and they wont offer him much. that tells me orlando HOPES to keep harris but not at a high price. well youre messing with the wrong team. lol. the knicks will overspend on AWFUL backup players let alone good ones with potential. i fully expect the knicks to (foolishly) offer him the max (hes good but he aint that good). the knicks will strike out on gasol, alridge, dragic and others. theyll panic by offering at least 20mill to harris. i dont think orlando will match that

I'm glad you got the point I was making. Great to hear from a Knicks fan regarding Harris. I can understand the sentimental acquisition that Harris would be for the Knicks, but don't you think that factor is more of a "feel good" story than an actual reason why the Knicks would go for him?

I would think the bottom line is you want to build a winner. With Melo as your centerpiece, I can't understand how Harris would fit next to him... since they play the same position. Would it really be worth paying the max to a guy who plays the same position as Melo and has the same defensive weaknesses there and the same propensity to shoot the ball?

The other question is... Are you expecting Phil Jackson to frivolously spend money the same way the old Knicks did? Overpaying guys who didn't deserve it? Or are you thinking Phil will change the reputation and spending philosophy for the Knicks?

Having said that... even if Harris received the max, I'd put the odds at 80% that the Magic would match. I don't see the Magic losing him for nothing. They'll probably match to retain his asset and then trade him if things don't work out OR they pull off a sign and trade at the time that would bring back a fair return. I'd increase the odds to 90% if that max offer was coming from the Knicks because you simply don't have assets that would be good enough to want to do a S&T.

There is still a chance Harris could be traded before the season's trade deadline. If the Knicks are interested enough to give him the max, would they be willing to do this deal for Harris?

- Right to swap 1st rounders in 2015. If the swap is not made, then the option will exist until 2017. If by 2017, the swap is not made, then the Knicks will owe 2 2nd rounders to the Magic.
- Jose Calderon
- Cleanthony Early

theres no sentimental issue from the knicks end. i just know that he grew up a knicks fan in long island. he might sign there for sentimental reasons.

i hope phil doesnt overspend but dolan will pressure him to. this will be phils first TRUE test

i came here to get a pulse of what was happening with harris. i see a talented player who isnt even starting. so i assumed that the magic had no future interest in him. thats why i came here to find out

trading with the knicks is useless - we have no value unless you like expiring contracts or timmy "no d" hardaway

If Tobe really wants to make it to the Knicks he can. All he has to do is sign on with the Magic for 1 season and then go into the summer of 2016 as an UFA. Greg Monroe gambled with it this year.

[Skin]

i think "skin" made a great point on why harris has been benched - control the market by controlling his mins/stats. thats way teams wont be impressed and they wont offer him much. that tells me orlando HOPES to keep harris but not at a high price. well youre messing with the wrong team. lol. the knicks will overspend on AWFUL backup players let alone good ones with potential. i fully expect the knicks to (foolishly) offer him the max (hes good but he aint that good). the knicks will strike out on gasol, alridge, dragic and others. theyll panic by offering at least 20mill to harris. i dont think orlando will match that

I don't think Vaughn is holding Harris back so that he can't capitalize on a pay raise. That would be extremely unethical. He's coming off the bench because Vaughn is looking for a combination of players that will right the ship.

Yeah, it's more like a conspiracy theory talking point. Nobody would EVER admit to something like that. The truth is closer to what you said. We're looking for the right combination and Tobe got benched for his lack of defense. He's simply not a 2 way player at SF. But I'd say his defense improves against small ball PFs.

[Blue_and_Whte]

i think "skin" made a great point on why harris has been benched - control the market by controlling his mins/stats. thats way teams wont be impressed and they wont offer him much. that tells me orlando HOPES to keep harris but not at a high price. well youre messing with the wrong team. lol. the knicks will overspend on AWFUL backup players let alone good ones with potential. i fully expect the knicks to (foolishly) offer him the max (hes good but he aint that good). the knicks will strike out on gasol, alridge, dragic and others. theyll panic by offering at least 20mill to harris. i dont think orlando will match that

I don't think Vaughn is holding Harris back so that he can't capitalize on a pay raise. That would be extremely unethical. He's coming off the bench because Vaughn is looking for a combination of players that will right the ship.

Yeah, it's more like a conspiracy theory talking point. Nobody would EVER admit to something like that. The truth is closer to what you said. We're looking for the right combination and Tobe got benched for his lack of defense. He's simply not a 2 way player at SF. But I'd say his defense improves against small ball PFs.

To clarify... Not that it couldn't happen has never happened...I just don't see Hennigan or Vaughn doing that.

[tiderulz]

i think "skin" made a great point on why harris has been benched - control the market by controlling his mins/stats. thats way teams wont be impressed and they wont offer him much. that tells me orlando HOPES to keep harris but not at a high price. well youre messing with the wrong team. lol. the knicks will overspend on AWFUL backup players let alone good ones with potential. i fully expect the knicks to (foolishly) offer him the max (hes good but he aint that good). the knicks will strike out on gasol, alridge, dragic and others. theyll panic by offering at least 20mill to harris. i dont think orlando will match that

I don't think Vaughn is holding Harris back so that he can't capitalize on a pay raise. That would be extremely unethical. He's coming off the bench because Vaughn is looking for a combination of players that will right the ship.

unethical? like holding out players so that you lose more and get a better draft pick?

[Skin]

i think "skin" made a great point on why harris has been benched - control the market by controlling his mins/stats. thats way teams wont be impressed and they wont offer him much. that tells me orlando HOPES to keep harris but not at a high price. well youre messing with the wrong team. lol. the knicks will overspend on AWFUL backup players let alone good ones with potential. i fully expect the knicks to (foolishly) offer him the max (hes good but he aint that good). the knicks will strike out on gasol, alridge, dragic and others. theyll panic by offering at least 20mill to harris. i dont think orlando will match that

I don't think Vaughn is holding Harris back so that he can't capitalize on a pay raise. That would be extremely unethical. He's coming off the bench because Vaughn is looking for a combination of players that will right the ship.

unethical? like holding out players so that you lose more and get a better draft pick?

Haha. Made me laugh. I forgot this is the NBA. Where losing games on purpose doesn't happen either. lol

[Blue_and_Whte]

I don't think Vaughn is holding Harris back so that he can't capitalize on a pay raise. That would be extremely unethical. He's coming off the bench because Vaughn is looking for a combination of players that will right the ship.

unethical? like holding out players so that you lose more and get a better draft pick?

Haha. Made me laugh. I forgot this is the NBA. Where losing games on purpose doesn't happen either. lol

Well like I said, not saying it doesn't, or hasn't happened. I don't think teams holding players out in order lose is the same as sitting a player to essentially lower his value and chance to earn a big contract are the same thing, especially a young player on the verge of his first big pay raise. That's messing with someone's livelihood and his agent would be all over that.
Teams will openly say they're tanking and its ok because its allowed within the current "rules". Will a team openly say that they sat a player in order to prevent him from earning a big payday? I doubt that's what's happening.

[Skin]

unethical? like holding out players so that you lose more and get a better draft pick?

Haha. Made me laugh. I forgot this is the NBA. Where losing games on purpose doesn't happen either. lol

Well like I said, not saying it doesn't, or hasn't happened. I don't think teams holding players out in order lose is the same as sitting a player to essentially lower his value and chance to earn a big contract are the same thing, especially a young player on the verge of his first big pay raise. That's messing with someone's livelihood and his agent would be all over that.
Teams will openly say they're tanking and its ok because its allowed within the current "rules". Will a team openly say that they sat a player in order to prevent him from earning a big payday? I doubt that's what's happening.

No, I get what you mean and I agree. There's just never a shortage of conspiracy theories in the NBA is all and I get that shady things are always happening... or aren't they??? haha

[NBlue]

unethical? like holding out players so that you lose more and get a better draft pick?

Haha. Made me laugh. I forgot this is the NBA. Where losing games on purpose doesn't happen either. lol

Well like I said, not saying it doesn't, or hasn't happened. I don't think teams holding players out in order lose is the same as sitting a player to essentially lower his value and chance to earn a big contract are the same thing, especially a young player on the verge of his first big pay raise. That's messing with someone's livelihood and his agent would be all over that.
Teams will openly say they're tanking and its ok because its allowed within the current "rules". Will a team openly say that they sat a player in order to prevent him from earning a big payday? I doubt that's what's happening.

Its hard to imagine that is what is going on here -- I think its more likely some dumb JV strategy rather than a plan to screw the Tobias's value. That said, from the perspective of Tobias's camp I can certainly see how the could feel that is exactly what is happening -- you guys are starting Marble over ME?? wtf? Why are you intentionally trying to screw me?

Sometimes it does not really matter whether is perception or reality if it has the same impact on the market and on the player in question. Playing Tobes off the bench, regardless of the reason, would not appear to be a sound strategy if the goal is to resign him in the offseason...

[callmened]

lol. I don't think you watch Tobes play by your answer. Thanks though.

i dont watch him play much DUH...im in nyc. lol. thats why i came to the magic site to ask. lol

*sigh* You made a lot of judgments in asking that suggest that you do know. They have sports packages everywhere so that's no excuse, but if you're gonna say he wants to come there you should have reasons why. How about research at least a little before making statements? DUH is right, you don't know jack. He's gonna leave for sentimental reasons and not consider his game? ugh Knick fans.

dude. i wasnt trying to insult you so i apologize if it came off like that.

2nd, i have NBA league pass but who wants to watch orlando? like my knicks..theyre not a good team.

3rd, i never said he defintely wants to come back to ny. all i said was he grew up a knicks fan in long island and is cool with melo. i put 2 and 2 together

4th, im not saying it would be wise for him to come to nyc. i was simply asking if he was available. if it was up to me, id sign harris and look to get rid of (marsh)melo and is aging knees.

overall, i came in peace as a knicks fan to find out what the hell was going on with tob. harris. from afar, i see a young talented player who looks unhappy coming off the bench. i saw that he had ties to ny and grew up and knicks fan, so i was wondering if he was available as a free agent. i dont think thats a crazy question - again my apologies if any of this came off as insulting.

[OrlandO]

Harris' grandfather passed away tonight... He was the tuskeegee airman they featured with harris on NBA Inside Stuff a couple weeks ago. I did some digging and apparently he had a stroke last week around the time the magic played the Knicks (I don't recall hearing about this at all). Harris hasn't had a good game since and I think this explains that more than the benching, although I'm sure it didn't help.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/tobias31/status/560999936872181761[/tweet]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR1kgX9rPGc[/youtube]

[woosah]

Harris' grandfather passed away tonight... He was the tuskeegee airman they featured with harris on NBA Inside Stuff a couple weeks ago. I did some digging and apparently he had a stroke last week around the time the magic played the Knicks (I don't recall hearing about this at all). Harris hasn't had a good game since and I think this explains that more than the benching, although I'm sure it didn't help.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/tobias31/status/560999936872181761[/tweet]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR1kgX9rPGc[/youtube]

He was Frye's grandfather too. Both may miss the next couple of games for bereavement.

[thelead]

Harris' grandfather passed away tonight... He was the tuskeegee airman they featured with harris on NBA Inside Stuff a couple weeks ago. I did some digging and apparently he had a stroke last week around the time the magic played the Knicks (I don't recall hearing about this at all). Harris hasn't had a good game since and I think this explains that more than the benching, although I'm sure it didn't help.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/tobias31/status/560999936872181761[/tweet]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR1kgX9rPGc[/youtube]

That sucks. Explains a lot. He has seemed "off" since coming back.

I hope he takes time to get his mind right. Regardless of what the haters think, he is a key player for us and we need him to be 100%.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Haha. Made me laugh. I forgot this is the NBA. Where losing games on purpose doesn't happen either. lol

Well like I said, not saying it doesn't, or hasn't happened. I don't think teams holding players out in order lose is the same as sitting a player to essentially lower his value and chance to earn a big contract are the same thing, especially a young player on the verge of his first big pay raise. That's messing with someone's livelihood and his agent would be all over that.
Teams will openly say they're tanking and its ok because its allowed within the current "rules". Will a team openly say that they sat a player in order to prevent him from earning a big payday? I doubt that's what's happening.

No, I get what you mean and I agree. There's just never a shortage of conspiracy theories in the NBA is all and I get that shady things are always happening... or aren't they??? haha

Absolutely

[akhenaten]

You can blame Vaughn for a lot of things, but in my opinion trying Tobias off the bench isn't one of them. There's a fundamental problem with the makeup of this team -- all 3 frontcourt starters are bad defenders. Nik is not a good defender, Channing is HORRIBLE, and Tobias is sub-par. It's part of the team's problem. To remedy it, he tried benching Frye first, and the team looked worse with KOQ starting. He's not benching Vuc. So that leaves Tobias, and now he's trying him off the bench. I think this is actually an example of JV giving a reasonable effort, even if it doesn't work, rather than making a stupid coaching decision.

[Just Plain Mark]

You can blame Vaughn for a lot of things, but in my opinion trying Tobias off the bench isn't one of them. There's a fundamental problem with the makeup of this team -- all 3 frontcourt starters are bad defenders. Nik is not a good defender, Channing is HORRIBLE, and Tobias is sub-par. It's part of the team's problem. To remedy it, he tried benching Frye first, and the team looked worse with KOQ starting. He's not benching Vuc. So that leaves Tobias, and now he's trying him off the bench. I think this is actually an example of JV giving a reasonable effort, even if it doesn't work, rather than making a stupid coaching decision.

I can appreciate this perspective but I think the Tobias situation is one more area that Vaughn deserves criticism. While there can definitely be defensive concerns about Vuc, Frye and Harris all starting, none of the other combinations have provided anything remotely successful on defense so why is Tobias, Gordon and Vuc not used? At the least, Harris provides superior rebounding to Frye and superior spacing to O'Quinn. Also, based on age Harris has the potential to improve on defense, whereas I don't see that potential with Frye.

[Neon1]

This team has been remarkably worse the entire time Tobias has been displaced out of the starting lineup, no-matter whether by injury OR by coaches decision. That's a fact. He is not in anyway a guy that singlehandedly determines wins and losses, but he is definitely one of the few players (Vooch and on a smaller sample size Fournier and even smaller Dedmon) on the team where the team plays worse/less competitive with direct correlation to their individual playing time.

The only time season where we looked consistently competitive was when Vooch, Tobias and Fournier were all logging huge MPG totals. Payton was in the 28-31 range and Dedmon was a fixture in the reserve lineup.

The team seems to get killed and go on huge losing streaks (even last year) when O'Quinn seems to get extended rotation minutes or start for stretches. Which is weird because he seems to put up decent totals individually.

[BadMofoPimp]

I am sure Harris would have been a better starting PF than Frye while it worked better Last year.

[tooler]

You can blame Vaughn for a lot of things, but in my opinion trying Tobias off the bench isn't one of them. There's a fundamental problem with the makeup of this team -- all 3 frontcourt starters are bad defenders. Nik is not a good defender, Channing is HORRIBLE, and Tobias is sub-par. It's part of the team's problem. To remedy it, he tried benching Frye first, and the team looked worse with KOQ starting. He's not benching Vuc. So that leaves Tobias, and now he's trying him off the bench. I think this is actually an example of JV giving a reasonable effort, even if it doesn't work, rather than making a stupid coaching decision.

And yet he said Tobias would close games. So the only way to deal with it is put a system in place that compensates for defensive weaknesses.