Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG

[NavalAviator94]

But if coach is told to win games, and Vučević is his best player overall, why you expect him to not be focus on offense?
Especially on team that would probably start MCW if they have him.

You actually think Vucevic wins games? Where is the evidence of this?

We will SOOOO many more games by playing high energy gritty basketball with the young guns. Vucevic is a **** loser.

No, they would not.
Especially now when he is by far best passer on the floor after Payton left.
Shots distribution with him off court is terrible, especially with Ross and Simmons who only look for own shots and Grant having ballhandling skills of Biyombo.

If we only had a secondary ball handler that could defend. I say give Briscoe some run and see what he can do. He made some rookie mistakes as expected but he could surprise us once things slow down for him.

[pepe1991]

You actually think Vucevic wins games? Where is the evidence of this?

We will SOOOO many more games by playing high energy gritty basketball with the young guns. Vucevic is a **** loser.

No, they would not.
Especially now when he is by far best passer on the floor after Payton left.
Shots distribution with him off court is terrible, especially with Ross and Simmons who only look for own shots and Grant having ballhandling skills of Biyombo.

If we only had a secondary ball handler that could defend. I say give Briscoe some run and see what he can do. He made some rookie mistakes as expected but he could surprise us once things slow down for him.

My initial idea was to put Ross instad of DJ in starting lineup to have better perimeter defefnse and also PG who can run second unit.

I kind a feel sorry for Clifford, if basketball team is a cake he is given spoon , 1 milk and salt to make cake

[OrlandO]

But if coach is told to win games, and Vučević is his best player overall, why you expect him to not be focus on offense?
Especially on team that would probably start MCW if they have him.

You actually think Vucevic wins games? Where is the evidence of this?

We will SOOOO many more games by playing high energy gritty basketball with the young guns. Vucevic is a **** loser.

Vuc isn't a winning player as the number one option but he's still our most reliable scoring option, we have stretches where no one can create but vuc is a consistent interior scorer when we run through him. That's why this team uses him so much to try and win games. Him and Evan are the only real scorers this team has, AG is still raw and his handle isn't there he looks nice if someone else is feeding him but we have no one who can play make for others on this roster.

Once we move Vuc he will look much nicer in a smaller role on a good team with guards who can defend and a system that uses him correctly. Probably off the bench for a contender where he'll be efficient in a smaller role but every now and then have a big game that has his teams fans asking why orlando traded him for a 2nd round pick and some cheeseburgers

There is no reasoning with fans who think one player is to blame for all the losing during this rebuild. Total lack of awareness of the makeup of the team each year.

[PrimeThyme]

No, they would not.
Especially now when he is by far best passer on the floor after Payton left.
Shots distribution with him off court is terrible, especially with Ross and Simmons who only look for own shots and Grant having ballhandling skills of Biyombo.

If we only had a secondary ball handler that could defend. I say give Briscoe some run and see what he can do. He made some rookie mistakes as expected but he could surprise us once things slow down for him.

My initial idea was to put Ross instad of DJ in starting lineup to have better perimeter defefnse and also PG who can run second unit.

I kind a feel sorry for Clifford, if basketball team is a cake he is given spoon , 1 milk and salt to make cake

The roster construction definitely doesn't do Cliff any favors as we knew it wouldn't, but I will say that he doesn't do himself any favors as well by continuing to go to lineups like the Bamba/Vuc one. There was a reason I had so much pushback to the idea of that lineup back in training camp when he said that he might go to it. In two games the D. Augustin, N. Vucevic, T. Ross, E. Fournier, M. Bamba lineup has a 20 offensive rating and a 118 defensive rating. In one game the N. Vucevic, T. Ross, J. Grant, W. Iwundu, M. Bamba lineup has a 50 offensive rating and a 200 defensive rating. It actually can't get any worse than that and has produced as bad results as I thought it would. This is 2018 and twin tower lineups like that rarely if ever work.

The sooner he recognizes that the better of we will be.

[PennytoShaq]

The reason Clifford is playing Vuc and Bamba (I believe)is because of Vuc’s passing. He sees we have nothing at PG and we need to have ball movement at all times.

The reality is that not many lineups on this roster are going to give us great advanced stats, so it’s not worth worrying about. I posted it already, but the only tweak I’d prefer is starting all the vets we want to trade and playing all the young guys plus Ross as the second unit. I still doubt it would yield amazing advanced numbers, but it would be good for the young guys plus the fans.

[Knightro]

The roster construction definitely doesn't do Cliff any favors as we knew it wouldn't, but I will say that he doesn't do himself any favors as well by continuing to go to lineups like the Bamba/Vuc one. There was a reason I had so much pushback to the idea of that lineup back in training camp when he said that he might go to it. In two games the D. Augustin, N. Vucevic, T. Ross, E. Fournier, M. Bamba lineup has a 20 offensive rating and a 118 defensive rating. In one game the N. Vucevic, T. Ross, J. Grant, W. Iwundu, M. Bamba lineup has a 50 offensive rating and a 200 defensive rating. It actually can't get any worse than that and has produced as bad results as I thought it would. This is 2018 and twin tower lineups like that rarely if ever work.

The sooner he recognizes that the better of we will be.

Absolutely nailed it.

Bamba/Vucevic was a cute idea in theory, but has been an absolute disaster three games into the season.

Their two-man pairing has a ghastly -106.7 net rating in 12 minutes together.

Frankly, Clifford needs to not use that lineup ever again. Unfortunately, I don’t think he’s going to do that anytime soon. He’s pretty set in his ways. He clearly thinks that pairing gives the Magic the best chance to win the defensive glass (although it hasn’t yet to date) and I’m not expecting any major rotation changes for at least 10-15 games.

[pepe1991]

If we only had a secondary ball handler that could defend. I say give Briscoe some run and see what he can do. He made some rookie mistakes as expected but he could surprise us once things slow down for him.

My initial idea was to put Ross instad of DJ in starting lineup to have better perimeter defefnse and also PG who can run second unit.

I kind a feel sorry for Clifford, if basketball team is a cake he is given spoon , 1 milk and salt to make cake

The roster construction definitely doesn't do Cliff any favors as we knew it wouldn't, but I will say that he doesn't do himself any favors as well by continuing to go to lineups like the Bamba/Vuc one. There was a reason I had so much pushback to the idea of that lineup back in training camp when he said that he might go to it. In two games the D. Augustin, N. Vucevic, T. Ross, E. Fournier, M. Bamba lineup has a 20 offensive rating and a 118 defensive rating. In one game the N. Vucevic, T. Ross, J. Grant, W. Iwundu, M. Bamba lineup has a 50 offensive rating and a 200 defensive rating. It actually can't get any worse than that and has produced as bad results as I thought it would. This is 2018 and twin tower lineups like that rarely if ever work.

The sooner he recognizes that the better of we will be.

Yea lot of us were b***ing about Vuc/Bamba lineup but also lot of us pointed out that Clifford's rotations are ugly as hell , just as his thing for playing guys out of their positions .

Tbh watching Jokić, watching Magic struggle with their ballhandlers, watching Vučević play last game made clear to me that this is perfect season to try something wild like running everything through him .

He just needs to hit that 3s around 32% to drag C away from paint and whole game for everybody else becomes that much easier as paint is open.

[fendilim]

The way i see it, playing Vuc at 5 and Bamba at 4 works both ways. One, bamba still isnt physicality built on certain matchups. And keeps him on the court too.

Im fine with it. I know it keeps Vuc on the court, but it also helps give Bamba playing time. I’d rather see Bamba and/or Vuc on the court than Jarell martin, iwundu, frazier. Lol

[PennytoShaq]

The rationale for the Vuc Bamba lineup is there. It may suck to watch, but here is why:

Like it or not, Vuc is one of our best players. He is top 3 on this team easily right now.

Your best players need 30 mins a game.

Bamba is young but we want to him to play minutes too.

Subbing Bamba for Vuc hurts Bamba because it means he plays less minutes.

Playing Vuc and Bamba together is the only way to get both players the minutes they deserve.

[PrimeThyme]

The reason Clifford is playing Vuc and Bamba (I believe)is because of Vuc’s passing. He sees we have nothing at PG and we need to have ball movement at all times.

The reality is that not many lineups on this roster are going to give us great advanced stats, so it’s not worth worrying about. I posted it already, but the only tweak I’d prefer is starting all the vets we want to trade and playing all the young guys plus Ross as the second unit. I still doubt it would yield amazing advanced numbers, but it would be good for the young guys plus the fans.

The starting lineup has put up quite respectable advanced stats actually, and the bench unit with AG, Ross, Simmons ,Bamba, and Grant has been phenomenal (110 ortg, 64 drtg!!) in the 27 minutes they have played together so far. When the subs are ready to come in Id much rather just differ to that lineup and I think it would yield much better results.

[thelead]

My initial idea was to put Ross instad of DJ in starting lineup to have better perimeter defefnse and also PG who can run second unit.

I kind a feel sorry for Clifford, if basketball team is a cake he is given spoon , 1 milk and salt to make cake

The roster construction definitely doesn't do Cliff any favors as we knew it wouldn't, but I will say that he doesn't do himself any favors as well by continuing to go to lineups like the Bamba/Vuc one. There was a reason I had so much pushback to the idea of that lineup back in training camp when he said that he might go to it. In two games the D. Augustin, N. Vucevic, T. Ross, E. Fournier, M. Bamba lineup has a 20 offensive rating and a 118 defensive rating. In one game the N. Vucevic, T. Ross, J. Grant, W. Iwundu, M. Bamba lineup has a 50 offensive rating and a 200 defensive rating. It actually can't get any worse than that and has produced as bad results as I thought it would. This is 2018 and twin tower lineups like that rarely if ever work.

The sooner he recognizes that the better of we will be.

Yea lot of us were b***ing about Vuc/Bamba lineup but also lot of us pointed out that Clifford's rotations are ugly as hell , just as his thing for playing guys out of their positions .

Tbh watching Jokić, watching Magic struggle with their ballhandlers, watching Vučević play last game made clear to me that this is perfect season to try something wild like running everything through him .

He just needs to hit that 3s around 32% to drag C away from paint and whole game for everybody else becomes that much easier as paint is open.

Vuc’s problem on offense is that he’s fallen in love with the long 2. If he could focus on post ups and 3’s I would be okay with him getting more of the plays run through him (plus it would remove the dumb plays from our pg’s).

[Knightro]

The way i see it, playing Vuc at 5 and Bamba at 4 works both ways. One, bamba still isnt physicality built on certain matchups. And keeps him on the court too.

Im fine with it. I know it keeps Vuc on the court, but it also helps give Bamba playing time. I’d rather see Bamba and/or Vuc on the court than Jarell martin, iwundu, frazier. Lol

The stats overwhelmingly say it's a bad idea to pair these two together and your only recourse is "well at least it gets Bamba on the court!"

That's just poor rationale.

If the Magic want Bamba to play more than 15-20 MPG as a backup C, then they need to trade away Vucevic.

Pigeonholing Bamba into backup PF minutes and hemorrhaging points during those minutes isn't helping anybody.

[OrlandO]

The roster construction definitely doesn't do Cliff any favors as we knew it wouldn't, but I will say that he doesn't do himself any favors as well by continuing to go to lineups like the Bamba/Vuc one. There was a reason I had so much pushback to the idea of that lineup back in training camp when he said that he might go to it. In two games the D. Augustin, N. Vucevic, T. Ross, E. Fournier, M. Bamba lineup has a 20 offensive rating and a 118 defensive rating. In one game the N. Vucevic, T. Ross, J. Grant, W. Iwundu, M. Bamba lineup has a 50 offensive rating and a 200 defensive rating. It actually can't get any worse than that and has produced as bad results as I thought it would. This is 2018 and twin tower lineups like that rarely if ever work.

The sooner he recognizes that the better of we will be.

Absolutely nailed it.

Bamba/Vucevic was a cute idea in theory, but has been an absolute disaster three games into the season.

Their two-man pairing has a ghastly -106.7 net rating in 12 minutes together.

Frankly, Clifford needs to not use that lineup ever again. Unfortunately, I don’t think he’s going to do that anytime soon. He’s pretty set in his ways. He clearly thinks that pairing gives the Magic the best chance to win the defensive glass (although it hasn’t yet to date) and I’m not expecting any major rotation changes for at least 10-15 games.

I think it's too early to completely avoid it. It might end up not working out, but gotta give more than 3 games for things to settle, adjust and also to experiment. Those same lineups with Isaac in instead of Vuc were terrible as well. DJ, Ross, Fournier, Isaac, Bamba have 142 DRTG. Grant, Ross, Iwundu, Isaac, Bamba have 0 ORTG. Isaac/Bamba are -66.7 net rtg in only 7 minutes.... does that mean Cliff should avoid playing them together, too?

Is it really surprising when DJ/Fournier looked like they didn't even belong in the NBA those first two games? And then Bamba/Vuc get to play with future g-leaguers grant and iwundu in the last game? Vuc and bamba haven't been consistent yet either. Gotta get a larger sample size imo. Still haven't even played AG with them. Making it work is pretty important... that's how bamba can get more minutes in the first half of the season.

[Knightro]

The rationale for the Vuc Bamba lineup is there. It may suck to watch, but here is why:

Like it or not, Vuc is one of our best players. He is top 3 on this team easily right now.

Your best players need 30 mins a game.

Bamba is young but we want to him to play minutes too.

Subbing Bamba for Vuc hurts Bamba because it means he plays less minutes.

Playing Vuc and Bamba together is the only way to get both players the minutes they deserve.

Then Bamba needs to play fewer minutes or Vucevic needs to be traded if that's the case.

Playing Mo out of position and having the team collectively get DESTROYED while he's getting extra minutes out of position isn't a good idea for him or the organization frankly.

[PennytoShaq]

The rationale for the Vuc Bamba lineup is there. It may suck to watch, but here is why:

Like it or not, Vuc is one of our best players. He is top 3 on this team easily right now.

Your best players need 30 mins a game.

Bamba is young but we want to him to play minutes too.

Subbing Bamba for Vuc hurts Bamba because it means he plays less minutes.

Playing Vuc and Bamba together is the only way to get both players the minutes they deserve.

Then Bamba needs to play fewer minutes or Vucevic needs to be traded if that's the case.

Playing Mo out of position and having the team collectively get DESTROYED while he's getting extra minutes out of position isn't a good idea for him or the organization frankly.

Yes but in the present situation Vuc has not been traded. I am living in the present here. Long term, we all want Vuc traded - that’s a given.

[Knightro]

If Vucevic is so good that he has to play 30 MPG, then that leaves Bamba 18 MPG as his backup. Period. Don't like your top lotto pick only playing 18 MPG? Then trade Vuc.

Forcing another 6-7 minutes of Bamba each night out of position isn't beneficial to his development and it sure as heck isn't beneficial to the Magic on the court.

[PennytoShaq]

The reason Clifford is playing Vuc and Bamba (I believe)is because of Vuc’s passing. He sees we have nothing at PG and we need to have ball movement at all times.

The reality is that not many lineups on this roster are going to give us great advanced stats, so it’s not worth worrying about. I posted it already, but the only tweak I’d prefer is starting all the vets we want to trade and playing all the young guys plus Ross as the second unit. I still doubt it would yield amazing advanced numbers, but it would be good for the young guys plus the fans.

The starting lineup has put up quite respectable advanced stats actually, and the bench unit with AG, Ross, Simmons ,Bamba, and Grant has been phenomenal (110 ortg, 64 drtg!!) in the 27 minutes they have played together so far. When the subs are ready to come in Id much rather just differ to that lineup and I think it would yield much better results.

This is why Advanced stats are not the be all end all for me. The starting lineup was godawful in game 1 and game 2. I think we can all agree there.

The other lineup is really good, but I think the reason Vuc still plays is because Grant is not a great PG for the offense and we need that passing. What Grant can do is defend the pick and roll really well, and you are able to see that in the numbers. If Grant could run an offense and shoot, we would have our PG and be in great shape. But since he can not, Clifford keeps Vuc in there for a while and lets him set up the offense from the post.

[Def Swami]

No, they would not.
Especially now when he is by far best passer on the floor after Payton left.
Shots distribution with him off court is terrible, especially with Ross and Simmons who only look for own shots and Grant having ballhandling skills of Biyombo.

If we only had a secondary ball handler that could defend. I say give Briscoe some run and see what he can do. He made some rookie mistakes as expected but he could surprise us once things slow down for him.

My initial idea was to put Ross instad of DJ in starting lineup to have better perimeter defefnse and also PG who can run second unit.

I kind a feel sorry for Clifford, if basketball team is a cake he is given spoon , 1 milk and salt to make cake

Same for Vogel, Skiles, Borrego, Vaughn.

I like the idea of subbing in Ross for Augustin. Augustin doesn't really provide much that Ross can't with better defense. It's unfortunate, but that's how tragic the point guard and playmaking situation is.

[fendilim]

The way i see it, playing Vuc at 5 and Bamba at 4 works both ways. One, bamba still isnt physicality built on certain matchups. And keeps him on the court too.

Im fine with it. I know it keeps Vuc on the court, but it also helps give Bamba playing time. I’d rather see Bamba and/or Vuc on the court than Jarell martin, iwundu, frazier. Lol

The stats overwhelmingly say it's a bad idea to pair these two together and your only recourse is "well at least it gets Bamba on the court!"

That's just poor rationale.

If the Magic want Bamba to play more than 15-20 MPG as a backup C, then they need to trade away Vucevic.

Pigeonholing Bamba into backup PF minutes and hemorrhaging points during those minutes isn't helping anybody.

while i do agree that playing him for the sake of playing him isnt a good thing, most of the minutes he has gotten has been against good matchups. Bamba is agile to defend a four, however he isnt agile to defend a small ball 4. Thus, we havent really seen much of this happening.

Offensively, bamba struggles to get in the paint. Yes he made some putback dunks and so on, but those were mostly on transition. on a set offense, He has struggled to bang bodies. You can re-watch the heat game, he even tried posting up winslow in one possession but he wasnt able to back him down so he decided to pass the ball instead.

Yes, its not a good idea to play him at the four, but i dont think its a good idea to match him uo against the likes of embiid. We even avoided matching him up against whiteside. Instead tried to get him against olynyk instead who is more finesse.

[PrimeThyme]

The reason Clifford is playing Vuc and Bamba (I believe)is because of Vuc’s passing. He sees we have nothing at PG and we need to have ball movement at all times.

The reality is that not many lineups on this roster are going to give us great advanced stats, so it’s not worth worrying about. I posted it already, but the only tweak I’d prefer is starting all the vets we want to trade and playing all the young guys plus Ross as the second unit. I still doubt it would yield amazing advanced numbers, but it would be good for the young guys plus the fans.

The starting lineup has put up quite respectable advanced stats actually, and the bench unit with AG, Ross, Simmons ,Bamba, and Grant has been phenomenal (110 ortg, 64 drtg!!) in the 27 minutes they have played together so far. When the subs are ready to come in Id much rather just differ to that lineup and I think it would yield much better results.

This is why Advanced stats are not the be all end all for me. The starting lineup was godawful in game 1 and game 2. I think we can all agree there.

The other lineup is really good, but I think the reason Vuc still plays is because Grant is not a great PG for the offense and we need that passing. What Grant can do is defend the pick and roll really well, and you are able to see that in the numbers. If Grant could run an offense and shoot, we would have our PG and be in great shape. But since he can not, Clifford keeps Vuc in there for a while and lets him set up the offense from the post.

They aren't for me either, but thats why combining the eye test with the stats for me makes the Vuc/Bamba lineup even worse. I don't want Bamba to have to play out of position just for the sake of getting more minutes. He just looks downright lost out there when he is at the 4. Since Vuc is the 5 and the one on the block the majority of the time in that lineup it pretty much leaves Bamba camped out on the perimeter as that is the only way any kind of spacing can be had and without a functional handle or the ability to take a quicker 4 off the dribble the only thing he can do is shoot a 3.

Its like in 2016-2017 when for the sake of getting AG more minutes and development time we had him play the 3. It neither benefitted him or the team out on the court by doing so. I just think going to that bench lineup with AG would be the better option for both Bambas development and the team's success.