Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory

[dsg2021]

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Notes
-Lowe says there's only 4-5 teams where it wouldn't be crazy for them to trade for Westbrook and the Magic are one of them.
-Clark wants Westbrook. Doesn't necessarily think Westbrook would want to come, but he's all for it.
-Dan Devine suggested Gordon-Ennis-Fultz for Westbrook on Twitter and Magic fans gave him hell over it.
-Clark says the Magic are begging for an all-star.
-Clark thinks Weltman and Hammond are much better than Hennigan, but both regimes have fallen victim to the idea that shooting and scoring can be developed over time.
-Lowe says the Magic have no timeline and are on the "escalator to nowhere".
-Lowe says the challenge for the Magic acquiring Westbrook is being able to field a competitive team around Russ given how much money they would need to send out.
-Lowe says it wouldn't make sense to send out Fournier and Gordon and a third contract because the Magic wouldn't have enough pieces left to play with Westbrook.
-Clark and Lowe both agree the Magic need a significant shakeup.
-Lowe asks if Westbrook makes the Magic any better than the 8 seed. Clark says maybe not next year, but with a healthy Isaac they would be a higher seed.

Listen Here: https://dcs.megaphone.fm/ESP4792600374.mp3?key=853ceb6bdca9916d5c68dd5f704f1bf2

Good lord. If Russ doesn't make us better immediately why in the world would we trade for him.

I can't see us making a trade for westbrook, it would be too short sighted

We would have to do it in the most creative sense possible, pulling up the calculator and Larry Coon's NBA Salary Cap FAQ for a couple hours, doing the whole shibang. With Isaac out a year, I'd be de-motivated, and so the only way this makes any sense to me is to do what Lowe says, not lose as many players as possible. As crazy as it sounds, I think the best deal would actually be replacing some of HOU's lost picks with a 3rd or 4th team helping out in cap space. But we would do like top-18 protections on our two or three 1st's lost. Probably cost us a three to four 1st's if we're needing a 3rd team.

I suppose the other way is to dump all of our vets minus maybe All-Star Vooch to lose much less picks. But in what world does Russ happily do that?

[dsg2021]

Let's get weird...

-Trade Evan Fournier, Markelle Fultz, Al-Farouq Aminu for Russell Westbrook
-Draft Aaron Nesmith at 15 (I don't like him, but you need shooters with Westbrook)
-Draft Tre Jones at 45
-Resign MCW for the veteran minimum
-Sign Justin Holiday for some of the MLE (again shooters)

G: Westbrook, MCW, Jones
G: Holiday, Nesmith
F: Ross, Ennis, Iwundu
F: Gordon, Okeke, Clark
C: Vucevic, Bamba, Birch

IR: Isaac

The Magic could spam 1/5 pick and rolls with Westbrook and Vucevic with two shooters on the floor at all times (Nesmith, Holiday, Ross, Okeke, even Clark) and then one cutter (MCW, Gordon, Ennis, Iwundu).

Contender? No. More interesting than last year? Definitely.

Pretty damn decent plan, steps 1 through 5, if the salary cap math checks out.

[yoyojw17]

Let's get weird...

-Trade Evan Fournier, Markelle Fultz, Al-Farouq Aminu for Russell Westbrook
-Draft Aaron Nesmith at 15 (I don't like him, but you need shooters with Westbrook)
-Draft Tre Jones at 45
-Resign MCW for the veteran minimum
-Sign Justin Holiday for some of the MLE (again shooters)

G: Westbrook, MCW, Jones
G: Holiday, Nesmith
F: Ross, Ennis, Iwundu
F: Gordon, Okeke, Clark
C: Vucevic, Bamba, Birch

IR: Isaac

The Magic could spam 1/5 pick and rolls with Westbrook and Vucevic with two shooters on the floor at all times (Nesmith, Holiday, Ross, Okeke, even Clark) and then one cutter (MCW, Gordon, Ennis, Iwundu).

Contender? No. More interesting than last year? Definitely.

I may be in the minority... but after bringing along fultz for a year... i'd rather see him flourish than take a gamble with him. I like westbrook... but i feel as though there is a possibility of him coming in and just disrupting things a lil too much. Players like fultz and bamba for me... will only be dealt for surefire improvements.

[dsg2021]

The thing about a Westbrook trade, is if you can keep the right pieces like Knightro did, 1) sharpshooters like Ross, Nesmith, 2) a secondary All Star in Vooch who'd be more dangerous with Westbrook threatening, 3) an awesome wing like AG (and JI later as well), and 4) good surrounding pieces like Justin Holiday, Ennis, Okeke, Bamba, Birch, MCW who hustle their butt off.. then you're setting up for a Butler in MIA situation, where the primary star slides right in perfectly and makes a way bigger IMPACT than people would ever think.

Where are you in this debate? Are you in the camp that sees the triple-doubling god player as top 5, 6, 7 in the league, who definitely shines his best as the undisputed primary handler, or do you think he is only top 20, 25, 30 and a little overrated.

Btw, I don't think ORL FO would be interested in Westbrook. But Idk, it's fun to talk about.
Give me CP3 instead if it costs way less!

[The Real Dalic]

Let's get weird...

-Trade Evan Fournier, Markelle Fultz, Al-Farouq Aminu for Russell Westbrook
-Draft Aaron Nesmith at 15 (I don't like him, but you need shooters with Westbrook)
-Draft Tre Jones at 45
-Resign MCW for the veteran minimum
-Sign Justin Holiday for some of the MLE (again shooters)

G: Westbrook, MCW, Jones
G: Holiday, Nesmith
F: Ross, Ennis, Iwundu
F: Gordon, Okeke, Clark
C: Vucevic, Bamba, Birch

IR: Isaac

The Magic could spam 1/5 pick and rolls with Westbrook and Vucevic with two shooters on the floor at all times (Nesmith, Holiday, Ross, Okeke, even Clark) and then one cutter (MCW, Gordon, Ennis, Iwundu).

Contender? No. More interesting than last year? Definitely.

I really like this. It would finally allow us to move on from Fournier, as well as finally give us a true alpha and move Vuc to a secondary role. We also wouldn't lose any defense, and gain some shooting. Then, when JI comes back, trade AG for a 2 or 3 that can shoot and defend, someone like Otto Porter Jr. and we could start looking dangerous.

But, at the end of the day, we still have Weltham in the FO. . . So we wouldn't be taking a risk like this at all. We're most likely going to head into the season with the inspired starting lineup of Fultz-Fournier-Ennis-Gordon-Vucevic.

[Nyce_1]

Let's get weird...

-Trade Evan Fournier, Markelle Fultz, Al-Farouq Aminu for Russell Westbrook
-Draft Aaron Nesmith at 15 (I don't like him, but you need shooters with Westbrook)
-Draft Tre Jones at 45
-Resign MCW for the veteran minimum
-Sign Justin Holiday for some of the MLE (again shooters)

G: Westbrook, MCW, Jones
G: Holiday, Nesmith
F: Ross, Ennis, Iwundu
F: Gordon, Okeke, Clark
C: Vucevic, Bamba, Birch

IR: Isaac

The Magic could spam 1/5 pick and rolls with Westbrook and Vucevic with two shooters on the floor at all times (Nesmith, Holiday, Ross, Okeke, even Clark) and then one cutter (MCW, Gordon, Ennis, Iwundu).

Contender? No. More interesting than last year? Definitely.

you know, i've been vehemently against trading for Russ, but seeing it on paper....not bad. if we could do it without losing Fultz, I'd jump on board; but then having Russ stunts his growth at a time when he's due for a raise...I understand the reasoning to sending him.

I'd also start Ennis over Ross for "defensive" purposes.

In addition to Holiday, could make a run for Garret Temple, Wes Matthews, or maybe even....Carmelo Anthony?

[Skybox]

Let's get weird...

-Trade Evan Fournier, Markelle Fultz, Al-Farouq Aminu for Russell Westbrook
-Draft Aaron Nesmith at 15 (I don't like him, but you need shooters with Westbrook)
-Draft Tre Jones at 45
-Resign MCW for the veteran minimum
-Sign Justin Holiday for some of the MLE (again shooters)

G: Westbrook, MCW, Jones
G: Holiday, Nesmith
F: Ross, Ennis, Iwundu
F: Gordon, Okeke, Clark
C: Vucevic, Bamba, Birch

IR: Isaac

The Magic could spam 1/5 pick and rolls with Westbrook and Vucevic with two shooters on the floor at all times (Nesmith, Holiday, Ross, Okeke, even Clark) and then one cutter (MCW, Gordon, Ennis, Iwundu).

Contender? No. More interesting than last year? Definitely.

Pretty damn decent plan, steps 1 through 5, if the salary cap math checks out.

Yep. I'm certainly on the fence about Nesmith, but if we had Westbrook or another solid creator, I'd love to have a bigger, longer JJ at the 2. IF the Westbeast buys into the ORL "project" and cementing his own legacy like Butler is doing in MIA, I'm all in. Russ and Vuc could be a perfect yin/yang in terms of position, skill set, demeanor, etc.

People talk about his deal and his age...don't forget who he is and where he ranks in legit MVP discussion. Athletes don't necessarily die at 30, Russ might be the fiercest competitor in the league and still capable of insane numbers (out of Harden's shadow). I love Fultz and am hopefully project as "Westbrook-like" but I'll pay for the real thing for 3 years of intrigue. I also wouldn't rule out trading AG for a shooter at the same time- I have a feeling Okeke will fill in admirably if given the minutes. Might even see Evan next to Westbrook where there will be NO debate about who's the lead dog and Evan can stroke 3's and feed off of Russ' gravity. (assuming AG to HOU instead of EF)

[zaymon]

Let's get weird...

-Trade Evan Fournier, Markelle Fultz, Al-Farouq Aminu for Russell Westbrook
-Draft Aaron Nesmith at 15 (I don't like him, but you need shooters with Westbrook)
-Draft Tre Jones at 45
-Resign MCW for the veteran minimum
-Sign Justin Holiday for some of the MLE (again shooters)

G: Westbrook, MCW, Jones
G: Holiday, Nesmith
F: Ross, Ennis, Iwundu
F: Gordon, Okeke, Clark
C: Vucevic, Bamba, Birch

IR: Isaac

The Magic could spam 1/5 pick and rolls with Westbrook and Vucevic with two shooters on the floor at all times (Nesmith, Holiday, Ross, Okeke, even Clark) and then one cutter (MCW, Gordon, Ennis, Iwundu).

Contender? No. More interesting than last year? Definitely.

For me more interesting is watching Fultz grow i guess. I dont see much reason to do it. Seems like a panic move with limited upside. Only positive would be watching Westbrook killing AG for his fadeaways.

[tiderulz]

count me in the no camp for Russ. He ran off Durant, now running from Harden. after 30 games here i can see him not liking losing and being a distraction. add in his physical play at 32 with 3 years around $43mil/yr. no thanks unless we are getting something else to go along with Russ

[Bensational]

I feel like a lot of the same criticisms were made about Jimmy Buttler last offseason. "He's too old, he doesn't fit our timeline", "too expensive", "he's going to decline", "he's already run away from two good teams", etc.

Some players are built to just last a bit longer than others and I think Russ can stay in his current form throughout his contract. Some players are great for raising the floor of your competitive level.

[Skybox]

I feel like a lot of the same criticisms were made about Jimmy Buttler last offseason. "He's too old, he doesn't fit our timeline", "too expensive", "he's going to decline", "he's already run away from two good teams", etc.

Some players are built to just last a bit longer than others and I think Russ can stay in his current form throughout his contract. Some players are great for raising the floor of your competitive level.

EXACTLY. "He's selfish. He cares more about being #1 than winning"...oh. never mind.

These "superteam" backcourts compromise one or both ball-dominant talents...Dame/CJ, Harden/CP3, Harden/Russ, Wall/Beal. They can do very well but it's just not most efficient use of all assets...vs. the perfect synergy of LBJ/AD for the Lakers...just makes more sense. Like Stockton/Malone, Penny/Shaq or Magic/Kareem...how about Vuc/Russ...with some snipers and some defenders including future DPOY Jonathan Isaac?

Two superstar lead guards is 1 + 1 =1.5
Two superstars at different complementary roles is 1 +1 = 3

[Ducklett]

I feel like a lot of the same criticisms were made about Jimmy Buttler last offseason. "He's too old, he doesn't fit our timeline", "too expensive", "he's going to decline", "he's already run away from two good teams", etc.

Some players are built to just last a bit longer than others and I think Russ can stay in his current form throughout his contract. Some players are great for raising the floor of your competitive level.

What two good teams did Jimmy Butler run away from? o.O

[jonbob17]

We already have no cap space. Image tying up $42M on one player, who can't shoot, on the team with the worst spacing in the league, actually I guess NY is pretty bad.
Vucevic and AG (or Fultz) would almost certainly go back to match salary.

It would be a spectacle.

[Bensational]

I feel like a lot of the same criticisms were made about Jimmy Buttler last offseason. "He's too old, he doesn't fit our timeline", "too expensive", "he's going to decline", "he's already run away from two good teams", etc.

Some players are built to just last a bit longer than others and I think Russ can stay in his current form throughout his contract. Some players are great for raising the floor of your competitive level.

What two good teams did Jimmy Butler run away from? o.O

I think you could make a case for the potential of the Timberwolves when he was there. Philly was definitely a good team, they're just young and needed a new coach.

[Skybox]

I feel like a lot of the same criticisms were made about Jimmy Buttler last offseason. "He's too old, he doesn't fit our timeline", "too expensive", "he's going to decline", "he's already run away from two good teams", etc.

Some players are built to just last a bit longer than others and I think Russ can stay in his current form throughout his contract. Some players are great for raising the floor of your competitive level.

What two good teams did Jimmy Butler run away from? o.O

I think you could make a case for the potential of the Timberwolves when he was there. Philly was definitely a good team, they're just young and needed a new coach.

In hindsight, you'd have to say Jimmy Butler has a built-in "loser" detector...stats be damned, he knows who's a winner and who's not.

[Skin]

I'll entertain the thought...

1) Westbrook, Covington, McLemore for Fultz, Gordon, Ross, Aminu

I like this because it doesn't include our 15th pick and we get other pieces that fit Russ better so we can hit the ground running. Can't include Fournier because the draft occurs before FA and he hasn't opted in yet.

2) At 15, I'm drafting Kira Lewis. With Westbrook at the 2, we'll have the fastest backcourt in the league and 2 players who can bring playmaking to the floor at the same time. Plus moving Fournier to 6th man will break up buddy ball which would never work with Russ.

2020-21 - Top 8 rotation - Still a team transitioning in WeHam's vision
PG Kira Lewis
SG Russell Westbrook / Fournier
SF Robert Covington / McLemore
PF Chuma Okeke
C Nikola Vucevic / Bamba

2021-2022 - Top 8 rotation - Full fledged WeHam vision - No more Henny guys
PG Kira Lewis
SG Russell Westbrook / McLemore
SF Robert Covington
PF Jonathan Isaac / Okeke
C Mo Bamba / Birch

Would be interested to see what player we could bring back in a Vuc trade (Terry Rozier+?) and who we could possibly add in the draft.

[Ducklett]

I feel like a lot of the same criticisms were made about Jimmy Buttler last offseason. "He's too old, he doesn't fit our timeline", "too expensive", "he's going to decline", "he's already run away from two good teams", etc.

Some players are built to just last a bit longer than others and I think Russ can stay in his current form throughout his contract. Some players are great for raising the floor of your competitive level.

What two good teams did Jimmy Butler run away from? o.O

I think you could make a case for the potential of the Timberwolves when he was there. Philly was definitely a good team, they're just young and needed a new coach.

As soon as he left these teams, they blew apart from top to bottom. I think he just knows what players are playing for themselves and which players are hungry to win.

[Bensational]

What two good teams did Jimmy Butler run away from? o.O

I think you could make a case for the potential of the Timberwolves when he was there. Philly was definitely a good team, they're just young and needed a new coach.

As soon as he left these teams, they blew apart from top to bottom. I think he just knows what players are playing for themselves and which players are hungry to win.

Yeah but that can change with age. Embiid and Simmons are young. This is the part of their careers where they will struggle and have to learn to overcome adversity the way Jordan did. Butler might not have had the patience to wait for them to get there.

KAT and the Wolves I get. Philly I think he could've stuck with and got more out of, but Miami is a better situation for him.

Westbrook left OKC after they traded PG in a clear rebuild move. Houston looks a mess and he can probably see the writing on the wall and what's out of a chaotic situation - possibly like Butler in Philly?

[jonbob17]

I think you could make a case for the potential of the Timberwolves when he was there. Philly was definitely a good team, they're just young and needed a new coach.

As soon as he left these teams, they blew apart from top to bottom. I think he just knows what players are playing for themselves and which players are hungry to win.

Yeah but that can change with age. Embiid and Simmons are young. This is the part of their careers where they will struggle and have to learn to overcome adversity the way Jordan did. Butler might not have had the patience to wait for them to get there.

KAT and the Wolves I get. Philly I think he could've stuck with and got more out of, but Miami is a better situation for him.

Westbrook left OKC after they traded PG in a clear rebuild move. Houston looks a mess and he can probably see the writing on the wall and what's out of a chaotic situation - possibly like Butler in Philly?

Maybe Butler just didn't want to be on teams that spend a lot of their cap on guys who couldn't shoot. It was reported in Minnesota that Wiggins contract lead to him wanting out. Simmons/Embiid in philly. For as good as Butler is he makes his money on getting to the hoop. He shot 24% from 3 this year. He needs the spacing, and it's about as good as it gets down in Miami this year.

[PrimeThyme]

If we are going to go hard at a PG on the market I'd much prefer Paul at this stage over Westbrooke. Both players are on the decline, but Paul was still an extremely impactful player last season (4.4. BPM, 3.5 VORP, 8.5 W/s) and has a skill set more suited for this roster while Westbrooke's advanced stats took a significant dip and he struggles as a shooter (even more so last year).

You'd also only have to commit to two more years with Paul while Westbrooke has 3.

You could develop Fultz next to him like OKC did with Shai last year and let him play that secondary shotmaking/playmaking role. && if he can find a way to stay healthy and hover around the numbers he put up last year for the remainder of his contract, you'd have the potential for a good team when Isaac comes back.

To be clear though, I'd rather not trade for either. Paul is a high-risk bet with his injury history and age. Westbrooke is a high collusion slasher who relies heavily on athleticism. Similar to how John Wall was before the injuries piled up.

A major injury that significantly hinders their impact and play on the court for the remainder of their contracts is in play for both guys. It's just too risky to trade for either considering we would still probably be a first-round exit with either guy.