The Guards

[Residual-Heat]

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Lakers Twitterverse prefers Suggs

Wow Lakers fans arent as dumb as i thought the were

[VFX]

I'm not advocating for starting Cole, i'm strongly against trading him in favor of keeping 3 other guards who have identical skillset and who's skillest makes it impossible to pair them together on court for longer periods of times, and flat out are unplayable as duos in any sorts of playoff games.

Then who starts?

"Who has identical skill sets"?

Fultz, Suggs, and Black are all extremely different players. They just have varying degrees of shooting ability.

One doesn't shoot whatsoever, doesn't get to the line, a larger contract, and has average defense.
One has gotten better at shooting, not great handling, has elite defense, and is in year 2 of a rookie contract.
One hasn't played a game in the nba, is a 6'7 multi- positional defender, and has been working on their shot.

None of those players are the same.

Now, I agree Fultz and either combination of Suggs or Black doesn't work on the floor. Black and Suggs can because the defense can make up for it and Suggs will shoot and get to the line.

[Residual-Heat]

I'm not advocating for starting Cole, i'm strongly against trading him in favor of keeping 3 other guards who have identical skillset and who's skillest makes it impossible to pair them together on court for longer periods of times, and flat out are unplayable as duos in any sorts of playoff games.

Then who starts?

"Who has identical skill sets"?

Fultz, Suggs, and Black are all extremely different players. They just have varying degrees of shooting ability.

One doesn't shoot whatsoever, doesn't get to the line, a larger contract, and has average defense.
One has gotten better at shooting, not great handling, has elite defense, and is in year 2 of a rookie contract.
One hasn't played a game in the nba, is a 6'7 multi- positional defender, and has been working on their shot.

None of those players are the same.

Now, I agree Fultz and either combination of Suggs or Black doesn't work on the floor. Black and Suggs can because the defense can make up for it and Suggs will shoot and get to the line.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

I'm not advocating for starting Cole, i'm strongly against trading him in favor of keeping 3 other guards who have identical skillset and who's skillest makes it impossible to pair them together on court for longer periods of times, and flat out are unplayable as duos in any sorts of playoff games.

Then who starts?

"Who has identical skill sets"?

Fultz, Suggs, and Black are all extremely different players. They just have varying degrees of shooting ability.

One doesn't shoot whatsoever, doesn't get to the line, a larger contract, and has average defense.
One has gotten better at shooting, not great handling, has elite defense, and is in year 2 of a rookie contract.
One hasn't played a game in the nba, is a 6'7 multi- positional defender, and has been working on their shot.

None of those players are the same.

Now, I agree Fultz and either combination of Suggs or Black doesn't work on the floor. Black and Suggs can because the defense can make up for it and Suggs will shoot and get to the line.

Wanted Tyus badly in FA and would love if we were able to snag him via Trade. Dude has shown he can run it just needs the minutes.

[Knightro]

He couldn't shoot in March as well.

It's basically how mediocre shooters shoot. Just random Kyle Kuzma/Marcus Smart shooting splits (both 33% for 3) show identical pattern. ONe month 40% for 3 , next month 28% , than return to basic performances, just to have patterns of repetition of hot/cold.

Yeah I mean we've had this discussion before. Basically no NBA player shoots exactly 38% from 3PT for 6 consecutive months. There's peaks and valleys to shooting because of hot streaks and cold slumps.

All Suggs has to do is maintain his good months - like he had in February and the half month of April - and just uptick his really bad months from like 25% to the low 30s%.

If he can do that, he'll finish the season in the upper 30s% which is all we're looking for really.

Look at Cole Anthony. He shot 36% from 3PT this year. A solidly average shooting year. But he had two months that were well below average and two months that were well above average. That's just how shooting goes.

[Residual-Heat]

Then who starts?

"Who has identical skill sets"?

Fultz, Suggs, and Black are all extremely different players. They just have varying degrees of shooting ability.

One doesn't shoot whatsoever, doesn't get to the line, a larger contract, and has average defense.
One has gotten better at shooting, not great handling, has elite defense, and is in year 2 of a rookie contract.
One hasn't played a game in the nba, is a 6'7 multi- positional defender, and has been working on their shot.

None of those players are the same.

Now, I agree Fultz and either combination of Suggs or Black doesn't work on the floor. Black and Suggs can because the defense can make up for it and Suggs will shoot and get to the line.

Wanted Tyus badly in FA and would love if we were able to snag him via Trade. Dude has shown he can run it just needs the minutes.

me too, but at the same time I didnt want him to ruin the tank. I didnt think we'd be as good as we were last season.

[pepe1991]

He couldn't shoot in March as well.

It's basically how mediocre shooters shoot. Just random Kyle Kuzma/Marcus Smart shooting splits (both 33% for 3) show identical pattern. ONe month 40% for 3 , next month 28% , than return to basic performances, just to have patterns of repetition of hot/cold.

Yeah I mean we've had this discussion before. Basically no NBA player shoots exactly 38% from 3PT for 6 consecutive months. There's peaks and valleys to shooting because of hot streaks and cold slumps.

All Suggs has to do is maintain his good months - like he had in February and the half month of April - and just uptick his really bad months from like 25% to the low 30s%.

If he can do that, he'll finish the season in the upper 30s% which is all we're looking for really.

Look at Cole Anthony. He shot 36% from 3PT this year. A solidly average shooting year. But he had two months that were well below average and two months that were well above average. That's just how shooting goes.

But he shot 32,7% overall. But nobody wants to say it without adding what he shot whatever desired streach fits opinion/agenda.
He is now, in nba career 27% three point shooter.

College :33,7%
Rookie 21%
Sophmore : 32,7%

It's borderline impossible to shoot as bad as he shot as rookie. 42/196 is jawdropping bad.

[eyriq]

My thinking on who to keep between Fultz, Cole, Suggs, and Black is a follows:

Black has rising star potential. Easy and obvious keeper
Suggs is off course but has shown signs of life and could get back to rising star trajectory. Even then he's a solid Versatile Guard Defender archetype. Easy keeper (for now)
Fultz is trending UP and was our best backcourt player in 2023. He's a TERRIFIC interior scorer for a point guard, this seems to be his super power. He's a positive IQ player and knows when to distribute and when to take over. He's unselfish and good for the culture.
Cole is the man out. He's terrible on defense and we can get bench scoring from somewhere else. He's got the lowest ceiling of these 4 guards.

[pepe1991]

I'm not advocating for starting Cole, i'm strongly against trading him in favor of keeping 3 other guards who have identical skillset and who's skillest makes it impossible to pair them together on court for longer periods of times, and flat out are unplayable as duos in any sorts of playoff games.

Then who starts?

"Who has identical skill sets"?

Fultz, Suggs, and Black are all extremely different players. They just have varying degrees of shooting ability.

One doesn't shoot whatsoever, doesn't get to the line, a larger contract, and has average defense.
One has gotten better at shooting, not great handling, has elite defense, and is in year 2 of a rookie contract.
One hasn't played a game in the nba, is a 6'7 multi- positional defender, and has been working on their shot.

None of those players are the same.

Now, I agree Fultz and either combination of Suggs or Black doesn't work on the floor. Black and Suggs can because the defense can make up for it and Suggs will shoot and get to the line.

There are two worlds, what would I do, and what they will do.

To keep their path simple they will do:
nothing.

Probably dump Harris or remove him to bench ,start somebody between Cole or Suggs at SG and keep Fultz at PG so they can squeeze everybody in rotation.
If they trade anybody, it will probably be Cole, based on draft stock and fact they didn't burn lottery pick nor resigned money onto him.



What would i do?
Trade Fultz for whatever today.

Than i would approach Suggs to tell him he will be played at PG on opening night and he has 40 - or so games to prove he actually can be player/position he was drafted to be.
IF he still can't dribble, can't hit right passes, still has "drunk Westbrook" playstyle, goodby.

I'm not in business od developing bench SGs and turning failed draftee PGs into rehab to be SGs ( MCW all over again). There are just about 20 starting level shooting gaurds to go after.

And trading him midway in 3rd year would mean he still has some base value based on draft. I'm not doing Bamba / Payton thing again where i'm keeping lottery pick until his value is two second round picks from 4024.

Suggs & Black, imo also can't play together. Especially in playoffs when guards at times only can get curl off screen and mid range shot , and they both have tendency to put heads down and go at rim, even when driving line doesn't exist ( Suggs career in one posssession in nutshell in nba)

[Knightro]

My thinking on who to keep between Fultz, Cole, Suggs, and Black is a follows:

Black has rising star potential. Easy and obvious keeper
Suggs is off course but has shown signs of life and could get back to rising star trajectory. Even then he's a solid Versatile Guard Defender archetype. Easy keeper (for now)
Fultz is trending UP and was our best backcourt player in 2023. He's a TERRIFIC interior scorer for a point guard, this seems to be his super power. He's a positive IQ player and knows when to distribute and when to take over. He's unselfish and good for the culture.
Cole is the man out. He's terrible on defense and we can get bench scoring from somewhere else. He's got the lowest ceiling of these 4 guards.

By the 2024-2025 season, I'd probably most like to see this...

Black backed up by Cole
Suggs backed up by Howard (or visa versa)

Fultz gone. Harris gone.

It would require a lot of development from a lot of guys, but this would be what I'd be hoping for.

[VFX]

It's borderline impossible to shoot as bad as he shot as rookie. 42/196 is jawdropping bad.

It’s a good thing we have an entirely new season of data to show that the previous season doesn’t matter.

[eyriq]

My thinking on who to keep between Fultz, Cole, Suggs, and Black is a follows:

Black has rising star potential. Easy and obvious keeper
Suggs is off course but has shown signs of life and could get back to rising star trajectory. Even then he's a solid Versatile Guard Defender archetype. Easy keeper (for now)
Fultz is trending UP and was our best backcourt player in 2023. He's a TERRIFIC interior scorer for a point guard, this seems to be his super power. He's a positive IQ player and knows when to distribute and when to take over. He's unselfish and good for the culture.
Cole is the man out. He's terrible on defense and we can get bench scoring from somewhere else. He's got the lowest ceiling of these 4 guards.

By the 2024-2025 season, I'd probably most like to see this...

Black backed up by Cole
Suggs backed up by Howard (or visa versa)

Fultz gone. Harris gone.

It would require a lot of development from a lot of guys, but this would be what I'd be hoping for.

My money is on Black starting out of the gate.

[Knightro]

My money is on Black starting out of the gate.

As in this season? There's almost no way that's happening

[eyriq]

My money is on Black starting out of the gate.

As in this season? There's almost no way that's happening

This season. I think he's a top 20 PG as rookie.

[eyriq]

Effectively, I'm picturing a world where he wins ROY and in that world he wins the starting role out of the gate. Is this that world?

[jezzerinho]

An additional wrinkle with Suggs is money. He will be eligible for his big second contract the same year as Franz, and a year before Paolo. You can only stockpile lottery picks for so long before you reach a balloon payment situation. There are many reasons to start consolidating the roster and mixing in veterans, and this is one.

The shooting looked to be coming along late season and the defence was always above average.

But the money question is a valid one. The other is the ball movement question. Suggs was horrible for a PG and very bad for a SG.

If you look at offensive metrics for all the successful offenses in the NBA and the playoffs, they all have high Assist % and low TO%. All of them.

They are indicative of high level ball movement ability. Thats something Orlando just doesnt have. Were basement dwellers in both categories and (3pt shooting apart) the biggest impediment to us being good.

Partly thats due to the inexperience of the roster, but we also have some duds as far as finding the open guy is concerned.

Suggs, Gary Harris and Bol are all very poor.

Guys like Black and Howard could bring needed skills upgrade in passing and ball security, but that begs the question what we do with the guys who are stopping the ball.

Suggs feeds into that thought process, sooner rather than later. Even if the shooting and defence make him playable, we need him to develop more court vision and make better passing decisions. If he doesnt, he'll be too expensive for what he brings (with our other financial demands in 2 years).

Maybe Franz and especially Paolo could be better inside-out players and thereby reduce reliance on movement around the perimeter. Maybe then, Suggs can be carried.

[Skybox]

I would trade Fultz immediately and not for another PG. I'd love Kyle Anderson, but I'd settle for Kelly Olynyk. I'd add DEN pick to get Kispert and Gafford. We need solid vet frontcourt bench. Idk who else could be available.

I'm assuming Black is the eventual PG of the future but likely isn't ready to go. Start Cole and Suggs. Give Cole the opportunity to earn a big extension and/or up his trade value. If it's a Vuc/Bamba situation, where suddenly Cole is a legit top 15 scoring PG - good problem to sort out when the time comes. Black can, apparently, be deployed many ways, but cannot possibly co-exist with a PG that can't shoot.

If Cole's extension negotiations and perceived role don't look promising - trade him. If Black's the guy anyway, we can find a Peyton Pritchard or Monte Morris or Shake Milton or other DJ Augustine-type to back him up. Suggs should get some minutes at PG too.

If Garland is available- everything but Paolo, Franz, and Suggs or Black (whoever we see complementing undersized Garland) and picks should be on the table...I don't expect there to be any merit to that rumor.'

Garland is a fantastic player. So is Mitchell...but maybe just maybe not the best fit. Garland might actually be the better one to pair with our frontcourt guys.

[basketballRob]

Delete

[Residual-Heat]

I'm not advocating for starting Cole, i'm strongly against trading him in favor of keeping 3 other guards who have identical skillset and who's skillest makes it impossible to pair them together on court for longer periods of times, and flat out are unplayable as duos in any sorts of playoff games.

Then who starts?

"Who has identical skill sets"?

Fultz, Suggs, and Black are all extremely different players. They just have varying degrees of shooting ability.

One doesn't shoot whatsoever, doesn't get to the line, a larger contract, and has average defense.
One has gotten better at shooting, not great handling, has elite defense, and is in year 2 of a rookie contract.
One hasn't played a game in the nba, is a 6'7 multi- positional defender, and has been working on their shot.

None of those players are the same.

Now, I agree Fultz and either combination of Suggs or Black doesn't work on the floor. Black and Suggs can because the defense can make up for it and Suggs will shoot and get to the line.

There are two worlds, what would I do, and what they will do.

To keep their path simple they will do:
nothing.

Probably dump Harris or remove him to bench ,start somebody between Cole or Suggs at SG and keep Fultz at PG so they can squeeze everybody in rotation.
If they trade anybody, it will probably be Cole, based on draft stock and fact they didn't burn lottery pick nor resigned money onto him.



What would i do?
Trade Fultz for whatever today.

Than i would approach Suggs to tell him he will be played at PG on opening night and he has 40 - or so games to prove he actually can be player/position he was drafted to be.
IF he still can't dribble, can't hit right passes, still has "drunk Westbrook" playstyle, goodby.

I'm not in business od developing bench SGs and turning failed draftee PGs into rehab to be SGs ( MCW all over again). There are just about 20 starting level shooting gaurds to go after.

And trading him midway in 3rd year would mean he still has some base value based on draft. I'm not doing Bamba / Payton thing again where i'm keeping lottery pick until his value is two second round picks from 4024.

Suggs & Black, imo also can't play together. Especially in playoffs when guards at times only can get curl off screen and mid range shot , and they both have tendency to put heads down and go at rim, even when driving line doesn't exist ( Suggs career in one posssession in nutshell in nba)

I think you're focusing too much on "he was drafted to be a point guard" so either becomes that or he is a failure. Many thought Oladipo's best position would be PG, Zach Lavine was drafted to be a PG and played that position in his rookie year.. you dont have to be so rigid. Lets see what he can do, even if he doesnt develop into a PG, he can still be a very good player. Even if he doesnt develop into anything more than a better Bruce Brown Jr thats still a valuable player to have off the bench. Not sure why the rush to trade him. Oladipo didnt break out until he was 25 years old. How dumb would the Magic look if the same exact thing happened with Suggs? If we did as you suggest and he underperforms as a starting PG, then what? What are we getting for him in a trade? A crappy 1st round pick? Who cares.

Regarding his overall 3pt shooting percentage, ive mentioned several times his 3pt % and compared them to others in his draft class. Barnes, Giddey, Cade, Green.. none of these guys shot the ball at a high percentage this season. Suggs was relatively decent. Can we practice patience and give him a chance to improve? I just dont understand the rush to trade him..

[Fortune Teller]

I'm not advocating for starting Cole, i'm strongly against trading him in favor of keeping 3 other guards who have identical skillset and who's skillest makes it impossible to pair them together on court for longer periods of times, and flat out are unplayable as duos in any sorts of playoff games.

Then who starts?

"Who has identical skill sets"?

Fultz, Suggs, and Black are all extremely different players. They just have varying degrees of shooting ability.

One doesn't shoot whatsoever, doesn't get to the line, a larger contract, and has average defense.
One has gotten better at shooting, not great handling, has elite defense, and is in year 2 of a rookie contract.
One hasn't played a game in the nba, is a 6'7 multi- positional defender, and has been working on their shot.

None of those players are the same.

Now, I agree Fultz and either combination of Suggs or Black doesn't work on the floor. Black and Suggs can because the defense can make up for it and Suggs will shoot and get to the line.

There are two worlds, what would I do, and what they will do.

To keep their path simple they will do:
nothing.

Probably dump Harris or remove him to bench ,start somebody between Cole or Suggs at SG and keep Fultz at PG so they can squeeze everybody in rotation.
If they trade anybody, it will probably be Cole, based on draft stock and fact they didn't burn lottery pick nor resigned money onto him.



What would i do?
Trade Fultz for whatever today.

Than i would approach Suggs to tell him he will be played at PG on opening night and he has 40 - or so games to prove he actually can be player/position he was drafted to be.
IF he still can't dribble, can't hit right passes, still has "drunk Westbrook" playstyle, goodby.

I'm not in business od developing bench SGs and turning failed draftee PGs into rehab to be SGs ( MCW all over again). There are just about 20 starting level shooting gaurds to go after.

And trading him midway in 3rd year would mean he still has some base value based on draft. I'm not doing Bamba / Payton thing again where i'm keeping lottery pick until his value is two second round picks from 4024.

Suggs & Black, imo also can't play together. Especially in playoffs when guards at times only can get curl off screen and mid range shot , and they both have tendency to put heads down and go at rim, even when driving line doesn't exist ( Suggs career in one posssession in nutshell in nba)

Same. For once I would like to see this front office trade high when the value may be inflated, rather than wait too long and throw away another asset for nothing. There is risk to it, sure, but Weltman and Hammond have been in this business for decades and they've seen two full years of Suggs in the NBA and one year in college. They must have an educated opinion as to what his career trajectory likely will be. That he still couldn't crack the starting lineup in Year 2 with one of the worst backcourts in the NBA doesn't bode well.