People were interested in these podcasts
2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
Moderators: Def Swami, Howard Mass, ChosenSavior, UCF, Knightro, UCFJayBird
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
- eyriq
- Retired Mod
- Posts: 33,275
- And1: 9,365
- Joined: Mar 25, 2008
- Location: #TheLab
- Contact:
-
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
Young Cores and Winning: NBA Teams with Top 3 Minute-Getters Weighted Average Age 22 or Younger
This is a historical list of NBA teams where the top three players in minutes played have a weighted average age 22 or younger. While youth typically correlates with growing pains, several of these teams bucked the trend and posted winning records—or even deep playoff runs.
Team Year Win % Avg. Age Wins
OKC 2011 0.671 21.73 55
OKC 2010 0.610 21.67 50
ORL 2024 0.573 21.61 47
CLE 2022 0.537 21.01 44
MIL 2015 0.500 21.92 41
OKC 2023 0.488 21.69 40
BOS 1998 0.439 21.57 36
ORL 2023 0.415 21.43 34
DEN 2016 0.402 21.77 33
MIL 2016 0.402 21.76 33
DET 2015 0.390 21.92 32
BOS 1999 0.380 21.66 31
ATL 2019 0.354 21.19 29
MIN 2016 0.354 21.49 29
LAL 2017 0.317 21.70 26
CLE 2021 0.306 21.29 25
OKC 2021 0.306 19.95 25
WAS 2012 0.303 21.89 25
ATL 2020 0.299 21.34 24
MIN 2020 0.297 21.31 24
OKC 2022 0.293 21.09 24
DET 2022 0.280 20.82 23
OKC 2009 0.280 20.68 23
HOU 2023 0.268 20.29 22
ORL 2022 0.268 20.91 22
SAS 2023 0.268 21.89 22
PHO 2018 0.256 21.39 21
PHO 2019 0.232 21.36 19
WAS 2025 0.215 21.22 18
CHI 2000 0.207 21.68 17
LAL 2016 0.207 21.08 17
UTA 2025 0.203 21.30 17
MIN 2015 0.195 20.86 16
CHI 2001 0.183 21.97 15
DET 2024 0.171 21.05 14
VAN 1999 0.160 21.78 13
ATL 2005 0.159 21.51 13
Key Takeaways:
Only three teams on this list won 45+ games: OKC '10–'11 and ORL '24.
While many of these teams were rebuilding, some clearly accelerated their timeline.
The youngest core on this list was OKC 2021 with an average age of just 19.95.
This data provides a rough benchmark for what's possible with a very young core. While rare, successful youth movements do exist—and they can offer serious upside.
This is a historical list of NBA teams where the top three players in minutes played have a weighted average age 22 or younger. While youth typically correlates with growing pains, several of these teams bucked the trend and posted winning records—or even deep playoff runs.
Team Year Win % Avg. Age Wins
OKC 2011 0.671 21.73 55
OKC 2010 0.610 21.67 50
ORL 2024 0.573 21.61 47
CLE 2022 0.537 21.01 44
MIL 2015 0.500 21.92 41
OKC 2023 0.488 21.69 40
BOS 1998 0.439 21.57 36
ORL 2023 0.415 21.43 34
DEN 2016 0.402 21.77 33
MIL 2016 0.402 21.76 33
DET 2015 0.390 21.92 32
BOS 1999 0.380 21.66 31
ATL 2019 0.354 21.19 29
MIN 2016 0.354 21.49 29
LAL 2017 0.317 21.70 26
CLE 2021 0.306 21.29 25
OKC 2021 0.306 19.95 25
WAS 2012 0.303 21.89 25
ATL 2020 0.299 21.34 24
MIN 2020 0.297 21.31 24
OKC 2022 0.293 21.09 24
DET 2022 0.280 20.82 23
OKC 2009 0.280 20.68 23
HOU 2023 0.268 20.29 22
ORL 2022 0.268 20.91 22
SAS 2023 0.268 21.89 22
PHO 2018 0.256 21.39 21
PHO 2019 0.232 21.36 19
WAS 2025 0.215 21.22 18
CHI 2000 0.207 21.68 17
LAL 2016 0.207 21.08 17
UTA 2025 0.203 21.30 17
MIN 2015 0.195 20.86 16
CHI 2001 0.183 21.97 15
DET 2024 0.171 21.05 14
VAN 1999 0.160 21.78 13
ATL 2005 0.159 21.51 13
Key Takeaways:
Only three teams on this list won 45+ games: OKC '10–'11 and ORL '24.
While many of these teams were rebuilding, some clearly accelerated their timeline.
The youngest core on this list was OKC 2021 with an average age of just 19.95.
This data provides a rough benchmark for what's possible with a very young core. While rare, successful youth movements do exist—and they can offer serious upside.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
- VFX
- RealGM
- Posts: 18,247
- And1: 16,126
- Joined: May 30, 2016
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
eyriq wrote:If you just knew the average age of a team's core you'd have expected Orlando to win ~29 games last season. We won 47. That's also why everyone celebrated 34 wins the season before.
Weltman said we were ahead of schedule. That's why.
The issue is that Weltman was incapable of seeing the inevitable ceiling rushing toward his face when he addressed zero concerns in aforementioned "successful season".
The healthiest season in probably a decade wouldn't likely be replicated. As stated here a million times... Acquiring KCP didnt change how players were being utilized within the system. It doubled down on what wasn't really working last season, despite the results, due to being a league top defense. Anyone watching the Cavs/Magic series already knew this.
This is why whatever Weltman says doesn't matter. Like him being incredulous as to why the shooting dropped off a cliff this season in that interview.

I'm not really sure what your point is here. Are you saying that Orlando's management was correct because their trio of Paolo/Franz/Suggs were young and made the playoffs? Are you saying that they shouldnt have addressed obvious concerns? What is this weird satisfaction with giving Orlando its flowers for drafting well and addressing nothing related to constructing a competitive real roster? That's essentially what you are saying. THEY DRAFTED WELL IN THE LOTTO IN TWO DRAFTS. Cool, now do the other 2/3 of the rest of the job before we start handing out participation trophies Eyriq.
This is like some Reddit level homer **** I haven't seen here in years apart from the usual posters I ignore 99% of the time.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
-
- Sixth Man
- Posts: 1,705
- And1: 702
- Joined: Dec 07, 2024
-
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
Paolo is not going to change how he plays regardless of who we have at PG. He is going to be an ISO player regardless. We can and should get someone who can more competently feed him entry passes and space the floor better, but Paolo is going to be Paolo IMO.
We need a better guard because we need a better guard lol, but I don't think it is going to have a huge effect on how the offense is run. Just get someone who can space the floor and not turn it over and see what happens.
We need a better guard because we need a better guard lol, but I don't think it is going to have a huge effect on how the offense is run. Just get someone who can space the floor and not turn it over and see what happens.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
- JF5
- RealGM
- Posts: 12,176
- And1: 4,155
- Joined: Jul 23, 2010
- Location: Disney World, Florida
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
VFX wrote:JF5 wrote:Def Swami wrote:A game changer for our season, and huge indictment on this roster that we have to rely on Cory Joseph this much. Same thing with Joe Ingles last year.
I don't think it's much of an indictment. This team is a young team. They're not supposed to have it all figured out at this point. That's why it's important to have playable vet presence to help guide them when constructing the roster going forward.
Missing the point.
They aren’t saying the current players “are supposed to have it all figured out”. Has nothing to do with the team being young.
Weltman should have had a point guard on the roster so players like Ingles and Joseph weren’t the only options. “Vet presence” from Corey Joseph (a reserve) shouldn’t be replacing what they should have had 3 seasons ago instead of the redemption arc Fultz experience.
This isn't really much of an argument.
Paolo and Franz will still get the brunt of the touches regardless of who is the PG. Joseph has helped in situations where the offense needs to get organized.
But at least 80 percent of the time the ball is going to go through Paolo and Franz for them to either create for themselves or others. You will see it every game previously going down the stretch where it was just Paolo or Franz handling the ball.
When you factor that in how many touches these guys get on top of their age. They're going to be responsible for most of the offensive actions that end in turnovers/bad plays.
So they have to essentially improve their decision making in order to avoid causing these turnovers.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
- eyriq
- Retired Mod
- Posts: 33,275
- And1: 9,365
- Joined: Mar 25, 2008
- Location: #TheLab
- Contact:
-
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
VFX wrote:
I'm not really sure what your point is here. Are you saying that Orlando's management was correct because their trio of Paolo/Franz/Suggs were young and made the playoffs? Are you saying that they shouldnt have addressed obvious concerns?
What is this weird satisfaction with giving Orlando its flowers for drafting well and addressing nothing related to constructing a competitive real roster?
This is like some Reddit level homer **** I haven't seen here in years apart from the usual posters I ignore 99% of the time.
Reality is that the rebuild is going exceptionally well. What you call "Reddit level homer ****" I call evaluating performance with appropriate benchmarks.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
- VFX
- RealGM
- Posts: 18,247
- And1: 16,126
- Joined: May 30, 2016
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
eyriq wrote:VFX wrote:
I'm not really sure what your point is here. Are you saying that Orlando's management was correct because their trio of Paolo/Franz/Suggs were young and made the playoffs? Are you saying that they shouldnt have addressed obvious concerns?
What is this weird satisfaction with giving Orlando its flowers for drafting well and addressing nothing related to constructing a competitive real roster?
This is like some Reddit level homer **** I haven't seen here in years apart from the usual posters I ignore 99% of the time.
Reality is that the rebuild is going exceptionally well. What you call "Reddit level homer ****" I call evaluating performance with appropriate benchmarks.
Should we hang a banner for how well Weltman drafted in the top of two draft lotterys?
Maybe Stuff can do it next halftime while pyrotechnics go off.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
- Knightro
- Forum Mod - Magic
- Posts: 27,792
- And1: 28,983
- Joined: Dec 18, 2010
- Location: Jersey
-
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
eyriq wrote:The fundamental problem is expectations. Many fans expected this team to contend this season, earn home-court advantage, and reach the second round of the playoffs.
You weren't one of those fans? Psh.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
- VFX
- RealGM
- Posts: 18,247
- And1: 16,126
- Joined: May 30, 2016
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
JF5 wrote:VFX wrote:JF5 wrote:
I don't think it's much of an indictment. This team is a young team. They're not supposed to have it all figured out at this point. That's why it's important to have playable vet presence to help guide them when constructing the roster going forward.
Missing the point.
They aren’t saying the current players “are supposed to have it all figured out”. Has nothing to do with the team being young.
Weltman should have had a point guard on the roster so players like Ingles and Joseph weren’t the only options. “Vet presence” from Corey Joseph (a reserve) shouldn’t be replacing what they should have had 3 seasons ago instead of the redemption arc Fultz experience.
This isn't really much of an argument.
Paolo and Franz will still get the brunt of the touches regardless of who is the PG. Joseph has helped in situations where the offense needs to get organized.
But at least 80 percent of the time the ball is going to go through Paolo and Franz for them to either create for themselves or others. You will see it every game previously going down the stretch where it was just Paolo or Franz handling the ball.
When you factor that in how many touches these guys get on top of their age. They're going to be responsible for most of the offensive actions that end in turnovers/bad plays.
So they have to essentially improve their decision making in order to avoid causing these turnovers.
Nobody disagrees that 80% of the time Paolo and Franz are going to be touching the ball.
It's about how this hypothetical point guard can do a better job than Joseph or Ingles, in starters minutes, setting the tempo or "organizing the offense" as you say.
Improving their decision making in order to avoid turnovers AND bad offensive possessions is the caveat here. The ball sticking with Paolo and making terrible low % shot choices is both a developmental issue that can be solved with coaching/time and something that can be alleviated with a competent point guard better than Corey Joseph.
Passes can be made to Paolo or Franz getting them into isolation scoring opportunities. They dont need to bring the ball up and slash to the rim every posession regardless of how defenses are set or adapting to them. It's just smarter basketball that hasnt been possible because of roster construction. It IS an indictment of how they built the roster.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
- eyriq
- Retired Mod
- Posts: 33,275
- And1: 9,365
- Joined: Mar 25, 2008
- Location: #TheLab
- Contact:
-
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
I believe we have one of the best young cores of all time. Injuries explain away the underperformance nicely.Knightro wrote:eyriq wrote:The fundamental problem is expectations. Many fans expected this team to contend this season, earn home-court advantage, and reach the second round of the playoffs.
You weren't one of those fans? Psh.

Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
- eyriq
- Retired Mod
- Posts: 33,275
- And1: 9,365
- Joined: Mar 25, 2008
- Location: #TheLab
- Contact:
-
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
What we shouldn't do is panic and push nonsensical agendas that focus on re-tooling a team that is developing organically. You turned on Paolo because of your flawed viewpoints. You've been fundamentally misguided for a while now.VFX wrote:eyriq wrote:VFX wrote:
I'm not really sure what your point is here. Are you saying that Orlando's management was correct because their trio of Paolo/Franz/Suggs were young and made the playoffs? Are you saying that they shouldnt have addressed obvious concerns?
What is this weird satisfaction with giving Orlando its flowers for drafting well and addressing nothing related to constructing a competitive real roster?
This is like some Reddit level homer **** I haven't seen here in years apart from the usual posters I ignore 99% of the time.
Reality is that the rebuild is going exceptionally well. What you call "Reddit level homer ****" I call evaluating performance with appropriate benchmarks.
Should we hang a banner for how well Weltman drafted in the top of two draft lotterys?
Maybe Stuff can do it next halftime while pyrotechnics go off.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
- VFX
- RealGM
- Posts: 18,247
- And1: 16,126
- Joined: May 30, 2016
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
eyriq wrote:What we shouldn't do is panic and push nonsensical agendas that focus on re-tooling a team that is developing organically. You turned on Paolo because of your flawed viewpoints. You've been fundamentally misguided for a while now.VFX wrote:eyriq wrote:
Reality is that the rebuild is going exceptionally well. What you call "Reddit level homer ****" I call evaluating performance with appropriate benchmarks.
Should we hang a banner for how well Weltman drafted in the top of two draft lotterys?
Maybe Stuff can do it next halftime while pyrotechnics go off.
LOL
When did I "turn" on Paolo? I've been pretty consistent about how I feel about him as a player going back to the day he was drafted and watching every single game of his while at Duke.
Are you the King Homer Arbiter of Magic Fandom now? Or have you not been paying attention to my criticisms of how this Front Office has been run for the last near decade?
I'd love to know what agenda I'm pushing here. Please tell me.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
-
- Junior
- Posts: 451
- And1: 450
- Joined: Dec 09, 2020
-
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
lol I find it pretty pathetic how Corey Joseph of all people has been our saving grace by just doing the minimal possible at the PG role. He’s basically one foot out the door from the league. Hopefully the front office isn’t stupid & realizes this is a major issue.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
- JF5
- RealGM
- Posts: 12,176
- And1: 4,155
- Joined: Jul 23, 2010
- Location: Disney World, Florida
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
VFX wrote:JF5 wrote:VFX wrote:
Missing the point.
They aren’t saying the current players “are supposed to have it all figured out”. Has nothing to do with the team being young.
Weltman should have had a point guard on the roster so players like Ingles and Joseph weren’t the only options. “Vet presence” from Corey Joseph (a reserve) shouldn’t be replacing what they should have had 3 seasons ago instead of the redemption arc Fultz experience.
This isn't really much of an argument.
Paolo and Franz will still get the brunt of the touches regardless of who is the PG. Joseph has helped in situations where the offense needs to get organized.
But at least 80 percent of the time the ball is going to go through Paolo and Franz for them to either create for themselves or others. You will see it every game previously going down the stretch where it was just Paolo or Franz handling the ball.
When you factor that in how many touches these guys get on top of their age. They're going to be responsible for most of the offensive actions that end in turnovers/bad plays.
So they have to essentially improve their decision making in order to avoid causing these turnovers.
Nobody disagrees that 80% of the time Paolo and Franz are going to be touching the ball.
It's about how this hypothetical point guard can do a better job than Joseph or Ingles, in starters minutes, setting the tempo or "organizing the offense" as you say.
Improving their decision making in order to avoid turnovers AND bad offensive possessions is the caveat here. The ball sticking with Paolo and making terrible low % shot choices is both a developmental issue that can be solved with coaching/time and something that can be alleviated with a competent point guard better than Corey Joseph.
Passes can be made to Paolo or Franz getting them into isolation scoring opportunities. They dont need to bring the ball up and slash to the rim every posession regardless of how defenses are set or adapting to them. It's just smarter basketball that hasnt been possible because of roster construction. It IS an indictment of how they built the roster.
But you're talking about positioning as to how Paolo and Franz get the ball TO THEN create for themselves or others.
Like for example if this PG gets the ball he is most likely going to dump it to Paolo in the Low/High post or at the FT line/Just inside the arc depending where he wants the ball and then he decides what he's going to do afterwards in the triple threat stance. I don't think he'll ever have much of an off ball game.
This PG is not going to be like a Steve Nash/Jason Kidd/John Stockton/Tyrese Haliburton type of playmaker where the passes are going to end up being assist/guided to baskets.
It's going to be more "I'm going to get us into sets properly" type of PG if things start to get shaky on that end of the floor. The onus is still going to be on Franz and Paolo generally speaking in these situations to make the right decisions.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
- eyriq
- Retired Mod
- Posts: 33,275
- And1: 9,365
- Joined: Mar 25, 2008
- Location: #TheLab
- Contact:
-
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
I think I fairly understand your criticisms. Weltman has chosen extensions or releases over trades and as a result has not optimized role players around the core. They've constructed an offensively flawed offensive team and have ignored opportunities to rebalance/improve. You've also concluded that Weltman is irredeemable as his record paints him as overly conservative and trade avoidant.VFX wrote:eyriq wrote:What we shouldn't do is panic and push nonsensical agendas that focus on re-tooling a team that is developing organically. You turned on Paolo because of your flawed viewpoints. You've been fundamentally misguided for a while now.VFX wrote:
Should we hang a banner for how well Weltman drafted in the top of two draft lotterys?
Maybe Stuff can do it next halftime while pyrotechnics go off.
LOL
When did I "turn" on Paolo? I've been pretty consistent about how I feel about him as a player going back to the day he was drafted and watching every single game of his while at Duke.
Are you the King Homer Arbiter of Magic Fandom now? Or have you not been paying attention to my criticisms of how this Front Office has been run for the last near decade?
I don't disagree with the complaints, I just don't think they matter right now. I also don't think Weltman is a one trick pony. The cap sheet matures starting next season, and the team is done with player development as a core focus after this season. New phase, new tactics. Weltman deserves the chance to see this through.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
-
- Assistant Coach
- Posts: 4,221
- And1: 1,351
- Joined: Oct 23, 2019
-
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
CLosP wrote:lol I find it pretty pathetic how Corey Joseph of all people has been our saving grace by just doing the minimal possible at the PG role. He’s basically one foot out the door from the league. Hopefully the front office isn’t stupid & realizes this is a major issue.
Getting healthy has been the biggest change. Corey is helpful for sure as a vet PG. but you giving that a little to much credit.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
- Knightro
- Forum Mod - Magic
- Posts: 27,792
- And1: 28,983
- Joined: Dec 18, 2010
- Location: Jersey
-
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
eyriq wrote:Young Cores and Winning: NBA Teams with Top 3 Minute-Getters Weighted Average Age 22 or Younger
This is a historical list of NBA teams where the top three players in minutes played have a weighted average age 22 or younger. While youth typically correlates with growing pains, several of these teams bucked the trend and posted winning records—or even deep playoff runs.
Team Year Win % Avg. Age Wins
OKC 2011 0.671 21.73 55
OKC 2010 0.610 21.67 50
ORL 2024 0.573 21.61 47
CLE 2022 0.537 21.01 44
MIL 2015 0.500 21.92 41
OKC 2023 0.488 21.69 40
BOS 1998 0.439 21.57 36
ORL 2023 0.415 21.43 34
DEN 2016 0.402 21.77 33
MIL 2016 0.402 21.76 33
DET 2015 0.390 21.92 32
BOS 1999 0.380 21.66 31
ATL 2019 0.354 21.19 29
MIN 2016 0.354 21.49 29
LAL 2017 0.317 21.70 26
CLE 2021 0.306 21.29 25
OKC 2021 0.306 19.95 25
WAS 2012 0.303 21.89 25
ATL 2020 0.299 21.34 24
MIN 2020 0.297 21.31 24
OKC 2022 0.293 21.09 24
DET 2022 0.280 20.82 23
OKC 2009 0.280 20.68 23
HOU 2023 0.268 20.29 22
ORL 2022 0.268 20.91 22
SAS 2023 0.268 21.89 22
PHO 2018 0.256 21.39 21
PHO 2019 0.232 21.36 19
WAS 2025 0.215 21.22 18
CHI 2000 0.207 21.68 17
LAL 2016 0.207 21.08 17
UTA 2025 0.203 21.30 17
MIN 2015 0.195 20.86 16
CHI 2001 0.183 21.97 15
DET 2024 0.171 21.05 14
VAN 1999 0.160 21.78 13
ATL 2005 0.159 21.51 13
Key Takeaways:
Only three teams on this list won 45+ games: OKC '10–'11 and ORL '24.
While many of these teams were rebuilding, some clearly accelerated their timeline.
The youngest core on this list was OKC 2021 with an average age of just 19.95.
This data provides a rough benchmark for what's possible with a very young core. While rare, successful youth movements do exist—and they can offer serious upside.
Imagine not considering the 1995 Magic led by 22 year old Shaq and 23 year old Penny who won 57 games and went to the NBA Finals a "young core" in your data because Nick Anderson happened to be 27 as the third leading minutes played player.
Just an insanely cherry picked data set to make your point look better than it is.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
-
- Junior
- Posts: 451
- And1: 450
- Joined: Dec 09, 2020
-
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
RichCollab wrote:CLosP wrote:lol I find it pretty pathetic how Corey Joseph of all people has been our saving grace by just doing the minimal possible at the PG role. He’s basically one foot out the door from the league. Hopefully the front office isn’t stupid & realizes this is a major issue.
Getting healthy has been the biggest change. Corey is helpful for sure as a vet PG. but you giving that a little to much credit.
I mean our two main guys have been healthy for some time already & we lost Suggs/Mo a while ago at this point. I rather not give Joseph any credit he’s a scrub lol I’m just saying the majority of the board also notices the team as a whole has played better with a 3rd string caliber PG starting. That’s not even on him more so how the team is constructed that’s what I’m getting at.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
- VFX
- RealGM
- Posts: 18,247
- And1: 16,126
- Joined: May 30, 2016
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
JF5 wrote:VFX wrote:JF5 wrote:
This isn't really much of an argument.
Paolo and Franz will still get the brunt of the touches regardless of who is the PG. Joseph has helped in situations where the offense needs to get organized.
But at least 80 percent of the time the ball is going to go through Paolo and Franz for them to either create for themselves or others. You will see it every game previously going down the stretch where it was just Paolo or Franz handling the ball.
When you factor that in how many touches these guys get on top of their age. They're going to be responsible for most of the offensive actions that end in turnovers/bad plays.
So they have to essentially improve their decision making in order to avoid causing these turnovers.
Nobody disagrees that 80% of the time Paolo and Franz are going to be touching the ball.
It's about how this hypothetical point guard can do a better job than Joseph or Ingles, in starters minutes, setting the tempo or "organizing the offense" as you say.
Improving their decision making in order to avoid turnovers AND bad offensive possessions is the caveat here. The ball sticking with Paolo and making terrible low % shot choices is both a developmental issue that can be solved with coaching/time and something that can be alleviated with a competent point guard better than Corey Joseph.
Passes can be made to Paolo or Franz getting them into isolation scoring opportunities. They dont need to bring the ball up and slash to the rim every posession regardless of how defenses are set or adapting to them. It's just smarter basketball that hasnt been possible because of roster construction. It IS an indictment of how they built the roster.
But you're talking about positioning as to how Paolo and Franz get the ball TO THEN create for themselves or others.
Like for example if this PG gets the ball he is most likely going to dump it to Paolo in the Low/High post or at the FT line/Just inside the arc depending where he wants the ball and then he decides what he's going to do afterwards in the triple threat stance. I don't think he'll ever have much of an off ball game.
This PG is not going to be like a Steve Nash/Jason Kidd/John Stockton/Tyrese Haliburton type of playmaker where the passes are going to end up being assist/guided to baskets.
It's going to be more "I'm going to get us into sets properly" type of PG if things start to get shaky on that end of the floor. The onus is still going to be on Franz and Paolo generally speaking in these situations to make the right decisions.
It’s a two-fold scenario. It is easier for both of them to make quick correct reads when positioned and in the rhythm of a moving, flowing, offense.
If we are going to assume both Paolo and Franz will develop into better shooters from outside, then sets from said PG must be more complex than handing the ball to either of them and standing back as they iso. Is it every single play? No, but the variety is what keeps defenses honest. That only happens with acquired skillsets outside of continual development.
Nobody said this player needs to be those guys. This player needs to be better than Ingles or Joseph without one foot into retirement. Is that bar too high?
Yes, Paolo and Franz need to be reading and making the right decisions. For stretches at a time they do and for some stretches they don’t. The argument is that they can develop the ability to make those reads better if they get more comfortable with a less stagnant moving offense that isn’t standing around watching them take bad shots for lack of options.
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
- eyriq
- Retired Mod
- Posts: 33,275
- And1: 9,365
- Joined: Mar 25, 2008
- Location: #TheLab
- Contact:
-
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
Knightro wrote:eyriq wrote:Young Cores and Winning: NBA Teams with Top 3 Minute-Getters Weighted Average Age 22 or Younger
This is a historical list of NBA teams where the top three players in minutes played have a weighted average age 22 or younger. While youth typically correlates with growing pains, several of these teams bucked the trend and posted winning records—or even deep playoff runs.
Team Year Win % Avg. Age Wins
OKC 2011 0.671 21.73 55
OKC 2010 0.610 21.67 50
ORL 2024 0.573 21.61 47
CLE 2022 0.537 21.01 44
MIL 2015 0.500 21.92 41
OKC 2023 0.488 21.69 40
BOS 1998 0.439 21.57 36
ORL 2023 0.415 21.43 34
DEN 2016 0.402 21.77 33
MIL 2016 0.402 21.76 33
DET 2015 0.390 21.92 32
BOS 1999 0.380 21.66 31
ATL 2019 0.354 21.19 29
MIN 2016 0.354 21.49 29
LAL 2017 0.317 21.70 26
CLE 2021 0.306 21.29 25
OKC 2021 0.306 19.95 25
WAS 2012 0.303 21.89 25
ATL 2020 0.299 21.34 24
MIN 2020 0.297 21.31 24
OKC 2022 0.293 21.09 24
DET 2022 0.280 20.82 23
OKC 2009 0.280 20.68 23
HOU 2023 0.268 20.29 22
ORL 2022 0.268 20.91 22
SAS 2023 0.268 21.89 22
PHO 2018 0.256 21.39 21
PHO 2019 0.232 21.36 19
WAS 2025 0.215 21.22 18
CHI 2000 0.207 21.68 17
LAL 2016 0.207 21.08 17
UTA 2025 0.203 21.30 17
MIN 2015 0.195 20.86 16
CHI 2001 0.183 21.97 15
DET 2024 0.171 21.05 14
VAN 1999 0.160 21.78 13
ATL 2005 0.159 21.51 13
Key Takeaways:
Only three teams on this list won 45+ games: OKC '10–'11 and ORL '24.
While many of these teams were rebuilding, some clearly accelerated their timeline.
The youngest core on this list was OKC 2021 with an average age of just 19.95.
This data provides a rough benchmark for what's possible with a very young core. While rare, successful youth movements do exist—and they can offer serious upside.
Imagine not considering the 1995 Magic led by 22 year old Shaq and 23 year old Penny who won 57 games and went to the NBA Finals a "young core" in your data because Nick Anderson happened to be 27 as the third leading minutes played player.
Just an insanely cherry picked data set to make your point look better than it is.
What’s the weighted average age (by minutes) of that core?
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
-
- Sixth Man
- Posts: 1,705
- And1: 702
- Joined: Dec 07, 2024
-
Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm
CLosP wrote:RichCollab wrote:CLosP wrote:lol I find it pretty pathetic how Corey Joseph of all people has been our saving grace by just doing the minimal possible at the PG role. He’s basically one foot out the door from the league. Hopefully the front office isn’t stupid & realizes this is a major issue.
Getting healthy has been the biggest change. Corey is helpful for sure as a vet PG. but you giving that a little to much credit.
I mean our two main guys have been healthy for some time already & we lost Suggs/Mo a while ago at this point. I rather not give Joseph any credit he’s a scrub lol I’m just saying the majority of the board also notices the team as a whole has played better with a 3rd string caliber PG starting. That’s not even on him more so how the team is constructed that’s what I’m getting at.
CoJo was pretty respectable his previous 3 seasons in Detroit. I would say he was a net positive all 3 years. I don't even think we can say that about a lot of the PGs people clamor for here. Bad year last year on the Warriors, but barely played. Again has been an easy net positive this year. He deserves some credit for being actually good at this point and a bargain at his salary.
I don't think he deserves most of the credit though, I think we were losing a lot because Paolo was basically unplayable, yet soaking up every shot at the same time. Raw games missed data doesn't tell the whole story when we went 4-11 in those first games Paolo came back when he was trying to regain his footing. He was like a 49 TS% with horrible defense on massive usage, it is so hard to overcome that and win, and now it is pretty clear it was because he was still recovering from his injury/getting up to game speed.
I think Paolo, Caldwell-Pope and Houstan finding their shots have been the biggest drivers, plus a pretty light schedule. But I do think CoJo deserves legitimate credit at this point (no I do not think he is why they are suddenly making their wide open 3s). I also think with neutral injury luck this team probably does match last season's win total and have a decent shot in the 1st round. And I also think even with a better guard addition we still get stomped out by the Celtics because we just aren't there yet.
Regardless I agree they need a new guard next year, but at the same time CoJo has actually been good.