Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon

[VFX]

Aaron struggled having to shoulder larger offensive role so far, so him benefiting of more touches is not given, but a tremendous challenge. He benefits playing next to scorers who draw defensive attention with playmaking ability to set Aaron.

Not so much shouldering offense, but utilizing a different system.

[pepe1991]

Aaron struggled having to shoulder larger offensive role so far, so him benefiting of more touches is not given, but a tremendous challenge. He benefits playing next to scorers who draw defensive attention with playmaking ability to set Aaron.

Not so much shouldering offense, but utilizing a different system.

What system you think team without best scorer and probably passer (and rebounder ) can ulitize without significan drop in performance?

Frankly, if Vuc and Ross are gone , i expect 25-30 wins and bottom 8 team in both defense and offense, especially because season will turn into dumpster fire around New Year and nobody will hold focus to play defense , and tank intentions will kick in.

There is co-relation between defense and offense, team that loses because they can't score, tends to struggle on defense as well, because it's mentally challanging to play hard defense with no reward on other end.

Clifford doesn't run offense through Vučević because he is his golden boy, but because other options don't exist. And if you take his only option, other won't miraculously appear.

Also Clifford's trackrecord with Hornets tells me that he won't boost pace. He had better suited team to run faster with Hornets many times ,he simply doesn't like turnovers and no control of a glass. Things you can't control if you run like a fool up and down.
Also playing faster does not mean playing better. Most of time it's just trading points.
Even by basic logic - faster pace = more possessions = more possessions = more chance to get exposed by more talented team. Yet bad teams fall into fast pace trap because it gives their medicore players fat box score and makes them more valuable on surface. ( that's how Suns have like 4 players averaging +15 ppg and everybody on surface "improved" on Lakers, who won as much games as last year )

[Bensational]

Weltman made the comment about wanting to preserve cap flexibility, but I can't imagine if Vux doesn't accept their offer that they won't continue to look to add pieces to bolster the roster. Expecting them to throw Fultz in and hope he picks up that slack feels like it flies in the face of how they've been working with him so far. Plus, they'll have to replace Ross' bench scoring.

A lot of people seem to consider it Vuc or nothing. Why?

[SOUL]

There is a lot of player bias going on lately from both sides, IMO.

I went and compared Aaron Gordon's most recent season (age 23) to Vuc's two seasons before this (age 26, 27) in basketball-reference. We obviously know what Vuc turned into this year on offense, but nobody expected the year he had. Hence why we drafted Bamba when we saw Vuc basically just turn into an average offensive option as he got older the last few years, exactly what Gordon is right now.

This wasn't that long ago. I remember getting in pages and pages and pages of debate with the very same posters who have issue with Gordon prospectively being the "first option" or a default first option (and putting my two cents out there, I don't he should be that either, that's not his role). But if we're going to debate the "merits" of first options, AG has much of an argument as Vuc did a few years ago.

This year's AG vs 2016-2017 Vuc:

AG had better ORTG, True Shooting, less usage, more offensive win shares, more defensive win shares, more total win shares, better VORP, basically any advanced metric had Gordon with a better year than Vuc's 2016-2017 year.

This year's AG vs 2017-2018 Vuc:

AG had better ORTG, True Shooting, less usage, more offensive win shares, more defensive win shares, more total win shares, the same VORP. Again, most advanced metrics have Gordon with a better year. Vuc took slightly more categories from him, so it's probably about a wash when it all comes down to it, but objectively, Gordon has a great argument for still having a better year.

I post this because on one side, the prospects of AG completely revamping his offensive game and becoming a player he never really was expected to be on offense is a long shot. If you're arguing for AG running the show, you're basically arguing for Vuc's offense the last few years with a higher tempo. So it's hypocritical in a sense if you were against Vuc. I won't doubt that just like Vuc, he can add pieces to his game, become more efficient and eventually one year be as offensively great as Vuc was this singular year, but if I didn't expect that out of Vuc, it's hard for me to think Gordon can just replicate that as well. It's hard to do. Not impossible, but you need to be in the right environment and have the faith of the team behind you.

On the other side, some posters who are arguing until they're blue in the face about how AG will never be first option material, can't lead a team, can't do this, can't do that, when he literally had similar if not better stats than Vuc the past few years. Similar offeseason arguments I was having with people in this thread about how Vuc NEEDED to add a better three point shot and get to the FT line for us to excuse the usage that we're giving him, and there was massive pushback on that by posters here about how he "doesn't need to do that" and his offense is "fine". The same posters in this thread against AG. That to me, shows either people need to eat crow and admit that Vuc before this year was extremely replaceable and average, or that there is an innate bias against Gordon (or for Vuc) because you need to take a logical leap to paint one guy's offense as "fine" and the other's as "needing a lot of work".

And again, I didn't want Vuc to be first option 2 years ago and don't want Gordon to be now either. I'll bite the bullet in a "down" year like I did for Vuc with Gordon, but realistically, no way.

So yeah, it's just weird seeing opinions flipping depending on who the player is. Are any sides willing to eat crow?

[rcklsscognition]

Vuc leaves the next man up that can get 20+ppg I'll buy their jersey and put them on my sig. Until then, get in the gym and hope to get on Vuc's level.

[Bensational]

I don't think AG even considers himself a first option. His whole attitude since last season has been about playing more within the team. Even his recent comments suggest he knows his role and will continue to improve on that. There simply aren't many people who are even claiming AG should be a first option. I'm not one of them, and I'm arguably the most vocal about continuing to support AGs growth and development.

So this is essentially a straw man argument generated by people who strongly want Vuc to stay. "If Vuc goes, AG can't be a good first option, so we fail". It's because they don't even want to begin to entertain the ambiguity of where a first option might evolve from. Free Agency is a giant mystery, but there could be an Isaiah Thomas waiting to be signed. The draft might produce a freak Donovan Mitchell type who can contribute right away. Trades might bring back a capable scorer. Development might see Fultz or Isaac take a freak step. But there's so much conjecture involved in these, that the easiest option is just to picture the current team without Vuc and that just leaves AG. But that's lazy and flawed. It's not the only option, but it's the one getting all the focus for some reason.

[ezzzp]

Using that same logic when looking at Orlando’s roster is where I don’t see this happening with our vets. Contract value, players perceived potential, injury history, age, and positional rank are the big factors in determining value.

Contract value: nobody knows what that is yet, not even Vucevic or Jeff Weltman. How do you see him being a bad contract value if not even the primary people in the negotiations know the answer to what his contract will be?

Injury history: outside of minor injuries Vucevic has been a pretty durable player throughout his career. He has had no structural issues with his knees, feet or back...that's a big deal for a heavy 7'er.

Age: Vucevic is 28, if his next contract is 4 years long, that means at least half will be in the sweet spot of his physical and performance prime. Because his game is skill based, not based on athleticism - like other bigs who are similar - he'll also age well.

Positional Rank:

• Amongst ALL NBA centers Vucevic was...

...2nd in RPM (Real Plus Minus)
...2nd in RPM WINS (Real Plus Minus Win Shares)
...3d in EWA (Wins Added)
...4th in PER (Player Efficiency Rating)
...5th in PIE (Player Impact Estimate)
...5th in DRPM (Defensive Real Plus Minus)
...5th in ORPM (Offensive Real Plus Minus)
...5th in DRR (Defensive Rebound Rate)
...5th in APG (Assists Per Game)
...6th in PPG (Points Per Game)
...7th in RPG (Rebounds Per Game)
...7th in AST% (Assist %)

• How does he compare with Joel Embiid, whom most consider the best C in the NBA:

Embiid's Contract: 5 year $147.7m (Yr Avg: $29.6m) $25.5m / $27.5m / $29.5m / $31.6m / $33.6m

Post Ups: Embiid 640 at 48.9 FG% / Vucevic 714 at 48.1 FG%
Drives: Embiid 305 at 52.3 FG% / Vucevic 180 at 54.3 FG%
Pull Up Shooting: Embiid 254 at 38.4 eFG% / Vucevic 84 at 39.3 eFG%
Catch and Shoot: Embiid 246 at 44.5 eFG% / Vucevic 449 at 49.3 eFG%
Isolation: Embiid 111 at 39.0 eFG% / Vucevic 33 at 55.2 eFG%
Pick and Roll Roll Man: Embiid 132 at 47.7 eFG% / Vucevic 331 at 58.5 eFG%
Points / FGA Per Game: Embiid 27.5 PPG on 18.7 FGA / Vucevic 20.8 PPG / 16.9 FGA
FTA Per Game: Embiid 10.1 / Vucevic 2.8

Overall Defensive FG%: Embiid 45.0 / Vucevic 48.4
<6' Defensive FG%: Embiid 52.2 / Vucevic 54.8
<10' Defensive FG%: Embiid 48.8 / Vucevic 52.2
>15' Defensive FG%: Embiid 38.3 / Vucevic 40.9
3PT Defensive FG%: Embiid 37.5 / Vucevic 38.5

Rebounds: Embiid 864 / Vucevic 930
Contested Rebounds: Embiid 313 / Vucevic 390
Defensive Rebounds: Embiid 706 / Vucevic 710

Deflections: Embiid 70 / Vucevic 127
Screen Assists: Embiid 253 / Vucevic 350
Loose Balls Recovered: Embiid 90 / Vucevic 82
Contested Shots: Embiid 853 / Vucevic 854

So Vuc is 28, just disappeared in the playoffs, has likely peaked, plays the least valued position for title contenders, and is set to make the largest contract of his career after being a fringe allstar in the eastern conference. Nothing about that on paper sounds like an extremely valuable asset that will, even combined with other assets, land Orlando a centerpiece Star.

Vuc is in the sweet spot of his prime and will be for at least two more years.

Vucevic didn't have a good series (his very first real playoff experience) vs one of the top defenses in NBA - a team defensively stacked with size all through roster and includes two DPOY and multiple top tier defenders.

Nearly every NBA player gets their biggest contract on their 3d deal because that is when they are at their peak prime; what that amount is is still a total unknown - nobody knows that amount.

If C is the least valued position, then why are you just assuming he's going to get this ridiculous $ amount? Do GM's not know what you know?

There is a lot on paper that says he's a solid asset now, and will remain that through his prime. If he wasn't then why are you assuming he'll make so much money...again, if you think he has no value - then why are you assuming GM's will pay him top $?

Highest valued assets for Orlando are Isaac and AG. Orlando isn’t a free agent destination until we land a star. The last time we were was with Dwight the #1 overall pick to build around and was putting up historic numbers.

What does that have to with Vucevic. Its a totally different context and entirely different NBA in style and how team's strategize to game the draft odds.

In theory everything you are saying is true, but it simply isn’t the case with Orlando currently. There isn’t a star player to draw talent, still have bad contracts on the books, draft positions of lesser value, and run offense through a 28 year old Center in his prime that we didn’t trade before the deadline. I can see a foundation set in place for turning those things into positives this offseason. It depends on the decisions of Weltman and Hammond.

I disagree.

Good franchises utilize all 3 mechanisms for improving + build an elite organizational infrastructure to develop and maximize their assets. This FO has already begun that process. The only bad contract is Mozgov's - that is it.

There wasn't a star player to draw talent to Houston, Utah, Denver, Milwaukee, Boston, Toronto etc...Milwaukee and Toronto don't have a top 10 pick in their entire starting lineup, yet they're the top two teams in East and most likely to make it to finals.

[VFX]

Aaron struggled having to shoulder larger offensive role so far, so him benefiting of more touches is not given, but a tremendous challenge. He benefits playing next to scorers who draw defensive attention with playmaking ability to set Aaron.

Not so much shouldering offense, but utilizing a different system.

What system you think team without best scorer and probably passer (and rebounder ) can ulitize without significan drop in performance?

Frankly, if Vuc and Ross are gone , i expect 25-30 wins and bottom 8 team in both defense and offense, especially because season will turn into dumpster fire around New Year and nobody will hold focus to play defense , and tank intentions will kick in.

There is co-relation between defense and offense, team that loses because they can't score, tends to struggle on defense as well, because it's mentally challanging to play hard defense with no reward on other end.

Clifford doesn't run offense through Vučević because he is his golden boy, but because other options don't exist. And if you take his only option, other won't miraculously appear.

Also Clifford's trackrecord with Hornets tells me that he won't boost pace. He had better suited team to run faster with Hornets many times ,he simply doesn't like turnovers and no control of a glass. Things you can't control if you run like a fool up and down.
Also playing faster does not mean playing better. Most of time it's just trading points.
Even by basic logic - faster pace = more possessions = more possessions = more chance to get exposed by more talented team. Yet bad teams fall into fast pace trap because it gives their medicore players fat box score and makes them more valuable on surface. ( that's how Suns have like 4 players averaging +15 ppg and everybody on surface "improved" on Lakers, who won as much games as last year )

Orlando is currently built with 2 face up wings that are better defensive players and arguably the future of this franchise. IF this FO can make a move for a guard, or find a good one in the draft, they won’t be terrible offensively. The defense won’t falter because of the system we employ and Birch/ Bamba front court can’t possibly end up being worse than Vuc in the long run.

You can throw out whatever statistics you want in regards to other teams. The fact is that it’s easier to adapt without Vuc, with the rest of the roster, than being forced to utilize him every single possession offensively in some facet.

Of course he’s going to look tremendous offensively if he’s the most reliable option on the roster for quick easy buckets inside. That’s a good thing and a bad thing as we witnessed in the playoffs. Why? Because the offense becomes one dimensional, predictable, and makes it difficult to close out games. Not only that, but it doesn’t give the other players the ability to grow offensively and limits Orlando to a half court system that doesn’t work well in the post season.

No one is saying faster pace = better basketball. What I’m saying is that the two most important pieces for Orlando are being limited by having to work in the confines of a slow half court offense when their skill sets aren’t really complimentary of it.

[VFX]

In theory everything you are saying is true, but it simply isn’t the case with Orlando currently. There isn’t a star player to draw talent, still have bad contracts on the books, draft positions of lesser value, and run offense through a 28 year old Center in his prime that we didn’t trade before the deadline. I can see a foundation set in place for turning those things into positives this offseason. It depends on the decisions of Weltman and Hammond.

I disagree.

Good franchises utilize all 3 mechanisms for improving + build an elite organizational infrastructure to develop and maximize their assets. This FO has already begun that process. The only bad contract is Mozgov's - that is it.

There wasn't a star player to draw talent to Houston, Utah, Denver, Milwaukee, Boston, Toronto etc...Milwaukee and Toronto don't have a top 10 pick in their entire starting lineup, yet they're the top two teams in East and most likely to make it to finals.

I’m going to disregard everything up to this point in your post because you either get it or you don’t. Vuc is a good stats/ bad team player that has benefited the most from his situation of being the primary option in a league where Centers aren’t anymore, especially in the post season.

He’s 28 and the majority of the league knows he has hit his peak and likely wouldn’t produce the same numbers with two decent options next to him on a true contender. You attach a big immovable contract anywhere north of 2+ years from now and you have a bad asset. I mean you are really giving me a complex breakdown comparing Embiid to Vuc... maybe I should have stopped reading. That being said, Embiid and the 76ers probably won’t go further than the second round with him as a main point in the offense.

WeHam might be putting this plan in motion, we will see. It’ll be a good litmus test to see how they prioritize increasing value in the current assets they have committed to.

Who said those franchises didn’t either draft their star players or trade for them? You have to have the assets to get established assets. Trading IT to a Cleveland team being held hostage by Irving is one way of doing it, same with Kawhi for #9 pick Derozen. Yes the Nuggets, Bucks, and Jazz found their go-to players later in the draft. What does that have to do with Vuc? So you are saying we keep Vuc and cross our fingers that the future #16-18 pick is a go-to superstar that half the teams in the league decided to pass over? Nah. I’ll pass on those odds.

[MagicFrenchie]

If the sixers get blown out a we might reconsider with perspective on how this team played during the series.this raptors team is no joke.

[NavalAviator94]

Weltman didn't say all this extra stuff when AG was a FA, I'm just saying.

AG was restricted.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app

[ezzzp]

I’m going to disregard everything up to this point in your post because you either get it or you don’t. Vuc is a good stats/ bad team player that has benefited the most from his situation of being the primary option in a league where Centers aren’t anymore, especially in the post season.

You are going to disregard the statistical proof? You either ignore them to maintain your bias safe from counterpoints or you pay attention to the information available to put that bias to the test.

Orlando was a 7th seed 42-40 team with 8th best defense in the NBA. I don't think you understand what the normal usage of the phrase good stats/bad team means.

He’s 28 and the majority of the league knows he has hit his peak and likely wouldn’t produce the same numbers with two decent options next to him on a true contender. You attach a big immovable contract anywhere north of 2+ years from now and you have a bad asset.

If you think the league doesn't think he's worth it then why are you saying he's going to get a big contract? You are trying to play both sides, make up your mind.

I mean you are really giving me a complex breakdown comparing Embiid to Vuc... maybe I should have stopped reading.

That was to give you a comparison of where he's at in relation to what is considered the best and what that best costs. Maybe you should have paid closer attention since your stipulation was to establish value based on positional standing. That's the type of data that allows you to make that assessment.

WeHam might be putting this plan in motion, we will see. It’ll be a good litmus test to see how they prioritize increasing value in the current assets they have committed to.

If you look at Toronto and Milwaukee, the two franchises Weltman and Hammond were key part of constructing current rosters, that's a good example of how they operate. They clearly don't tank, and they maintain winning context to build value of ALL their assets, and they draft a type of player regardless of where in the draft they are.

You have to have the assets to get established assets.

Trading IT to a Cleveland team being held hostage by Irving is one way of doing it, same with Kawhi for #9 pick Derozen. Yes the Nuggets, Bucks, and Jazz found their go-to players later in the draft. What does that have to do with Vuc? So you are saying we keep Vuc and cross our fingers that the future #16-18 pick is a go-to superstar that half the teams in the league decided to pass over? Nah. I’ll pass on those odds.

The Magic are building a cache of assets and building the value of ALL those assets, that is how the good franchises do it. That is how Boston got Kyrie, that is Toronto got Kawhi, that is how Houston got Harden etc.

[VFX]

I’m going to disregard everything up to this point in your post because you either get it or you don’t. Vuc is a good stats/ bad team player that has benefited the most from his situation of being the primary option in a league where Centers aren’t anymore, especially in the post season.

You are going to disregard the statistical proof? You either ignore them to maintain your bias safe from counterpoints or you pay attention to the information available to put that bias to the test.

Orlando was a 7th seed 42-40 team with 8th best defense in the NBA. I don't think you understand what the normal usage of the phrase good stats/bad team means.

He’s 28 and the majority of the league knows he has hit his peak and likely wouldn’t produce the same numbers with two decent options next to him on a true contender. You attach a big immovable contract anywhere north of 2+ years from now and you have a bad asset.

If you think the league doesn't think he's worth it then why are you saying he's going to get a big contract? You are trying to play both sides, make up your mind.

I mean you are really giving me a complex breakdown comparing Embiid to Vuc... maybe I should have stopped reading.

That was to give you a comparison of where he's at in relation to what is considered the best and what that best costs. Maybe you should have paid closer attention since your stipulation was to establish value based on positional standing. That's the type of data that allows you to make that assessment.

WeHam might be putting this plan in motion, we will see. It’ll be a good litmus test to see how they prioritize increasing value in the current assets they have committed to.

If you look at Toronto and Milwaukee, the two franchises Weltman and Hammond were key part of constructing current rosters, that's a good example of how they operate. They clearly don't tank, and they maintain winning context to build value of ALL their assets, and they draft a type of player regardless of where in the draft they are.

You have to have the assets to get established assets.

Trading IT to a Cleveland team being held hostage by Irving is one way of doing it, same with Kawhi for #9 pick Derozen. Yes the Nuggets, Bucks, and Jazz found their go-to players later in the draft. What does that have to do with Vuc? So you are saying we keep Vuc and cross our fingers that the future #16-18 pick is a go-to superstar that half the teams in the league decided to pass over? Nah. I’ll pass on those odds.

The Magic are building a cache of assets and building the value of ALL those assets, that is how the good franchises do it. That is how Boston got Kyrie, that is Toronto got Kawhi, that is how Houston got Harden etc.

I’m disregarding your “proof” because you put anyone with a reliable offensive skill set, with a green light, on this roster and you will get good numbers.

Who said the league doesn’t think he’s worth the contract? I don’t think he’s worth retaining situationally for Orlando for various reasons. Possibly even reasons related to the development of the rest of the roster. Do I need to list the numerous examples of Centers on bad or devaluing contracts to you? I’ll save you the time and mine.

42-40 team in an extremely weak conference that almost missed the playoffs with a bunch of other mediocre teams. Orlando is one of the worst teams offensively.

You can give me every comparison in the world related to Centers and it won’t mean anything. That’s the point. Overpaid bigs mean nothing in the post season. Your example of Embiid, for comparison, comes from a situation of many other options in Philadelphia’s starting lineup. There aren’t in Orlando, so I’ll take that data with a grain of salt if it even mattered in the first place.

That’s not how Boston “got Kyrie” or how Toronto “got Kawhi”. They held their teams for ransom and agreed to be traded there to the, now hilarious, possible detriment of Boston and Toronto when they lose those players because of the risk they took. Milwaukee is a different example and was built around a late lotto pick and free agency. Would WeHam even be regarded if they never picked Giannis because of his length?

Retaining Vuc to later trade down the road is a good option, but what return will he have as a 30 year old Center with an offensive skill set? Probably not much. We missed that window. Too bad.

Lastly, again this conversation isn’t about “tanking”. I should count how many times people think tanking is the argument when it has never been discussed when talking about this. Nobody expects WeHam to “tank”, but people don’t expect be middle of the pack praying to land a diamond in the rough between picks 16-19 either.

[ezzzp]

Weltman made the comment about wanting to preserve cap flexibility, but I can't imagine if Vux doesn't accept their offer that they won't continue to look to add pieces to bolster the roster. Expecting them to throw Fultz in and hope he picks up that slack feels like it flies in the face of how they've been working with him so far. Plus, they'll have to replace Ross' bench scoring.

A lot of people seem to consider it Vuc or nothing. Why?

I heard Weltman said cap flexibility was tight, which it is, not that he was trying to preserve it.

People keep saying save the cap space for 2020 or 2021, but they are ignoring that the Magic can't use that cap space. Fultz and Isaac hit RFA 2021, meaning that if those guys become who we hope they become the Magic have to preserve that cap room to be able to retain them or go into insane luxury tax...and the following year Gordon hits UFA...and the year after that Bamba hits RFA.

The most realistic way for Magic to make upgrades is by retaining their assets and flipping them down the road...to me the most important part to resigning Vucevic is not how much $ but how the contract is structured.

The reason people think its Vucevic or nothing is because if Vucevic isn't resigned then there is very little to no chance that any decent free agent joins a small market team that's just experienced a serious roster setback and will be destined to high lottery for at least a couple of seasons. With Vucevic and Ross, the Magic were the youngest team in the playoffs...without them they get even younger. No quality vet signs up for that unless they are massively overpaid or have some preexisting connection to the city.

Even Ross has already said he was going to see what Vucevic does.

[darthmerrick]

Weltman made the comment about wanting to preserve cap flexibility, but I can't imagine if Vux doesn't accept their offer that they won't continue to look to add pieces to bolster the roster. Expecting them to throw Fultz in and hope he picks up that slack feels like it flies in the face of how they've been working with him so far. Plus, they'll have to replace Ross' bench scoring.

A lot of people seem to consider it Vuc or nothing. Why?

I heard Weltman said cap flexibility was tight, which it is, not that he was trying to preserve it.

People keep saying save the cap space for 2020 or 2021, but they are ignoring that the Magic can't use that cap space. Fultz and Isaac hit RFA 2021, meaning that if those guys become who we hope they become the Magic have to preserve that cap room to be able to retain them or go into insane luxury tax...and the following year Gordon hits UFA...and the year after that Bamba hits RFA.

The most realistic way for Magic to make upgrades is by retaining their assets and flipping them down the road...to me the most important part to resigning Vucevic is not how much $ but how the contract is structured.

The reason people think its Vucevic or nothing is because if Vucevic isn't resigned then there is very little to no chance that any decent free agent joins a small market team that's just experienced a serious roster setback and will be destined to high lottery for at least a couple of seasons. With Vucevic and Ross, the Magic were the youngest team in the playoffs...without them they get even younger. No quality vet signs up for that unless they are massively overpaid or have some preexisting connection to the city.

Even Ross has already said he was going to see what Vucevic does.

I think based on Weltman's comments we are trying to resign Vuc for a fair price and if he happens to ask for something crazy like John Walls contract we may let him go. Also interesting to see us tied to the Jrue Holiday rumors. What are we offering for Jrue? Fournier, sign and trade Ross and our 1st rounder?

[MasterGMer]

If we stretch Mozgov and let go of Terell and Grant, do we have enough cap space to resign Vuc and add another FA?

[MasterGMer]

Weltman made the comment about wanting to preserve cap flexibility, but I can't imagine if Vux doesn't accept their offer that they won't continue to look to add pieces to bolster the roster. Expecting them to throw Fultz in and hope he picks up that slack feels like it flies in the face of how they've been working with him so far. Plus, they'll have to replace Ross' bench scoring.

A lot of people seem to consider it Vuc or nothing. Why?

I heard Weltman said cap flexibility was tight, which it is, not that he was trying to preserve it.

People keep saying save the cap space for 2020 or 2021, but they are ignoring that the Magic can't use that cap space. Fultz and Isaac hit RFA 2021, meaning that if those guys become who we hope they become the Magic have to preserve that cap room to be able to retain them or go into insane luxury tax...and the following year Gordon hits UFA...and the year after that Bamba hits RFA.

The most realistic way for Magic to make upgrades is by retaining their assets and flipping them down the road...to me the most important part to resigning Vucevic is not how much $ but how the contract is structured.

The reason people think its Vucevic or nothing is because if Vucevic isn't resigned then there is very little to no chance that any decent free agent joins a small market team that's just experienced a serious roster setback and will be destined to high lottery for at least a couple of seasons. With Vucevic and Ross, the Magic were the youngest team in the playoffs...without them they get even younger. No quality vet signs up for that unless they are massively overpaid or have some preexisting connection to the city.

Even Ross has already said he was going to see what Vucevic does.

I think based on Weltman's comments we are trying to resign Vuc for a fair price and if he happens to ask for something crazy like John Walls contract we may let him go. Also interesting to see us tied to the Jrue Holiday rumors. What are we offering for Jrue? Fournier, sign and trade Ross and our 1st rounder?

Is Jure Holiday a 1 or 2? 16th pick plus Fournier? Who else is possible?

[ezzzp]

I’m disregarding your “proof” because you put anyone with a reliable offensive skill set, with a green light, on this roster and you will get good numbers.

You think anyone can anchor a .500 team / 7th seed and put up 20/10 and be an All-Star...all they need is the volume? What?! Dude I 100% do not agree with that...at ALL

Who said the league doesn’t think he’s worth the contract?

You did: "the majority of the league knows he has hit his peak and likely wouldn’t produce the same numbers with two decent options next to him on a true contender. You attach a big immovable contract anywhere north of 2+ years from now and you have a bad asset."

I don’t think he’s worth retaining situationally for Orlando for various reasons. Possibly even reasons related to the development of the rest of the roster.

If you don't think Vucevic is important to the development of Gordon and Isaac you haven't been paying attention. Weltman, Hammond and Clifford, have all stated it recently and throughout the year. Josh Robbins recently laid out in an article how the loss of Vucevic would negatively impact those two specifically...and in my opinion Fultz as well as he too will desperately need floor spacing and a stabilizing offensive focal point.

Do I need to list the numerous examples of Centers on bad or devaluing contracts to you? I’ll save you the time and mine.

Do I need to point out how you are contradicting yourself again? Why are you saying that our starting C is going to get overpaid, if this common knowledge exists? Make up your mind.

42-40 team in an extremely weak conference that almost missed the playoffs with a bunch of other mediocre teams. Orlando is one of the worst teams offensively.

So are you saying that what Aaron Gordon, Isaac and Ross etc did this year etc doesn't count? because FYI they played vs those same "weak" teams.

You can give me every comparison in the world related to Centers and it won’t mean anything. That’s the point.

The only point I see from there is that you are refusing to acknowledge a massive amount of data to keep your bias afloat.

That’s not how Boston “got Kyrie” or how Toronto “got Kawhi”. They held their teams for ransom and agreed to be traded there to the, now hilarious, possible detriment of Boston and Toronto when they lose those players because of the risk they took. Milwaukee is a different example and was built around a late lotto pick and free agency.

Yes it absolutely is. Those teams stockpiled and built up their asset values SPECIFICALLY for those circumstances to occur. Kawhi wanted to go LA, but Spurs chose the team that gave them the assets they wanted back. Toronto was prepared for that situation. Same with Cleveland and Boston situation.

[ezzzp]

Also interesting to see us tied to the Jrue Holiday rumors. What are we offering for Jrue? Fournier, sign and trade Ross and our 1st rounder?

I hadn't heard that. Jrue would be nice...I imagine for starters they'd want one of Isaac, Gordon, Fultz or Bamba as they'd be going into full rebuild without him and AD.

[VFX]

I’m disregarding your “proof” because you put anyone with a reliable offensive skill set, with a green light, on this roster and you will get good numbers.

You think anyone can anchor a .500 team / 7th seed and put up 20/10 and be an All-Star...all they need is the volume? What?! Dude I 100% do not agree with that...at ALL...LMAO.

Who said the league doesn’t think he’s worth the contract?

You did: "the majority of the league knows he has hit his peak and likely wouldn’t produce the same numbers with two decent options next to him on a true contender. You attach a big immovable contract anywhere north of 2+ years from now and you have a bad asset."

I don’t think he’s worth retaining situationally for Orlando for various reasons. Possibly even reasons related to the development of the rest of the roster.

If you don't think Vucevic is important to the development of Gordon and Isaac you haven't been paying attention. Weltman, Hammond and Clifford, have all stated it recently and throughout the year. Josh Robbins recently laid out in an article how the loss of Vucevic would negatively impact those two specifically...and in my opinion Fultz as well as he too will desperately need floor spacing and a stabilizing offensive focal point.

Do I need to list the numerous examples of Centers on bad or devaluing contracts to you? I’ll save you the time and mine.

Do I need to point out how you are contradicting yourself again? Why are you saying that our starting C is going to get overpaid, if this common knowledge exists? Make up your mind.

42-40 team in an extremely weak conference that almost missed the playoffs with a bunch of other mediocre teams. Orlando is one of the worst teams offensively.

So are you saying that what Aaron Gordon, Isaac and Ross etc did this year etc doesn't count? because FYI they played vs those same "weak" teams.

You can give me every comparison in the world related to Centers and it won’t mean anything. That’s the point.

The only point I see from there is that you are refusing to acknowledge a massive amount of data to keep your bias afloat.

That’s not how Boston “got Kyrie” or how Toronto “got Kawhi”. They held their teams for ransom and agreed to be traded there to the, now hilarious, possible detriment of Boston and Toronto when they lose those players because of the risk they took. Milwaukee is a different example and was built around a late lotto pick and free agency.

Yes it absolutely is. Those teams stockpiled and built up their asset values SPECIFICALLY for those circumstances to occur. Kawhi wanted to go LA, but Spurs chose the team that gave them the assets they wanted back. Toronto was prepared for that situation. Same with Cleveland and Boston situation.

You don’t think Vuc benefitted immensely from his situation in Orlando??? Interesting.

I said nothing about how the league views him. GMs make bad decisions all the time. How I view him doesn’t matter in terms of what he will be paid obviously. Teams like OKC already regret giving a player like Steven Adams his ridiculous contract despite what fans think of him. Do you think WeHam are impervious to handing someone a bad contract?

No i dont think he’s important to Isaacs and Gordon’s development other than carrying the nonexistent offense that WeHam neglected to address. I don’t care what GM speak they choose to use.

What massive amount of data? Vuc put up good numbers as a primary option to a team with no options? Cool. Inconsistent Ross off the bench was the next go-to. Are you refuting that?

You must not be paying attention to the fact that star players recently have a huge say in where they choose to go. Their value is significantly altered by hand picking destinations of their choosing. Those teams took calculated risks and didn’t give up as much value because of it. Bad argument.

Let’s just say we disagree and you think Vuc at 28 is a good player to keep around until he’s 30+ and we pick late in the lotto for the next 3-4 years.