Summer Trades...never too early

[spinedoc]

Would anyone do a Gordon and Bamba for Harrison Barnes deal? Not sure if we would have to add a protected pick or not, but my gut says no. Barnes could be that true sf for us, and we get addition by subtraction by moving Gordon in my mind. Bamba leaving would be a loss to my future plans for this team, but it certainly balances this team better. That is if, JI can finally stay healthy and nail down the four spot. We then could draft the best sg and hope he quickly replaces Evan as we let his contract expire.

pg-Fultz
sg-Fournier
sf-Barnes
pf-JI
c-Vuc

Respect the heck out of you as a poster, but one of the worst trades on here I've seen. But then again I don't see trading Gordon an addition by subtraction deal so maybe we just disagree on that.

edit-guess I should explain. Barnes plays with basically zero heart and I believe his deal is negative value. To add Bamba or even a 1st is egregious IMO, but I wouldn't do AG for him straight up either (though I get that's subjective). He was just signed to it a few months ago and it was laughed at from every angle. Plus the whole premise of trading Gordon during by far his lowest value is silly to me but I obviously get the advantages too.

I appreciate that and I should explain. I was bored so I went down everyone's roster on hoopshype looking to see who could be available for a trade for us, there isn't much there by the way. I was trying to find someone making enough or overpaid that could use a change of scenery, making the rosters balance for each team because its not like Barnes would even be on the market. So, we would need to offer a sweetner to a team not looking to trade their guys. I'm just brainstorming to see if we can't be more balanced somehow, and yes I would even give up more in a deal in order to do that. That's why I was high on a Wiggins experiment too. No team is going to give us their best player without us gutting our team as well, and if we do that its a start from scratch scenario. We aren't in a position of strength, clearly after the failed attempts at the trade deadline we've been hearing about. I don't know, I just wanted to gauge opinion on here. Thanks for your input.

[Bensational]

Would anyone do a Gordon and Bamba for Harrison Barnes deal? Not sure if we would have to add a protected pick or not, but my gut says no. Barnes could be that true sf for us, and we get addition by subtraction by moving Gordon in my mind. Bamba leaving would be a loss to my future plans for this team, but it certainly balances this team better. That is if, JI can finally stay healthy and nail down the four spot. We then could draft the best sg and hope he quickly replaces Evan as we let his contract expire.

pg-Fultz
sg-Fournier
sf-Barnes
pf-JI
c-Vuc

Respect the heck out of you as a poster, but one of the worst trades on here I've seen. But then again I don't see trading Gordon an addition by subtraction deal so maybe we just disagree on that.

edit-guess I should explain. Barnes plays with basically zero heart and I believe his deal is negative value. To add Bamba or even a 1st is egregious IMO, but I wouldn't do AG for him straight up either (though I get that's subjective). He was just signed to it a few months ago and it was laughed at from every angle. Plus the whole premise of trading Gordon during by far his lowest value is silly to me but I obviously get the advantages too.

I appreciate that and I should explain. I was bored so I went down everyone's roster on hoopshype looking to see who could be available for a trade for us, there isn't much there by the way. I was trying to find someone making enough or overpaid that could use a change of scenery, making the rosters balance for each team because its not like Barnes would even be on the market. So, we would need to offer a sweetner to a team not looking to trade their guys. I'm just brainstorming to see if we can't be more balanced somehow, and yes I would even give up more in a deal in order to do that. That's why I was high on a Wiggins experiment too. No team is going to give us their best player without us gutting our team as well, and if we do that its a start from scratch scenario. We aren't in a position of strength, clearly after the failed attempts at the trade deadline we've been hearing about. I don't know, I just wanted to gauge opinion on here. Thanks for your input.

Guys like Barnes and Porter just don't seem like upgrades over Gordon, though. Both are paid a hell of a lot more than Gordon, neither offer Gordon's general all-round versatility as a defender, rebounder and someone who can make passes and help facilitate the offense. The improvement from 3 is pretty small, too. Yeah, Barnes is shooting 37% from 3 vs Gordon's 31% , but when you look at the numbers it's the difference of .2 3fgm's a game. So one in every 5 games Barnes will give you an extra 3 pointer over Gordon, but you'd be sacrificing a lot more court production for that one 3 pointer.

[cedric76]

Porter for Gordon +aminu all day long.

Great move for present and future

[Bensational]

Porter for Gordon +aminu all day long.

Great move for present and future

Absolutely terrible move. We trade the better player and depth for an expiring, injury prone washout.

[Xatticus]

Respect the heck out of you as a poster, but one of the worst trades on here I've seen. But then again I don't see trading Gordon an addition by subtraction deal so maybe we just disagree on that.

edit-guess I should explain. Barnes plays with basically zero heart and I believe his deal is negative value. To add Bamba or even a 1st is egregious IMO, but I wouldn't do AG for him straight up either (though I get that's subjective). He was just signed to it a few months ago and it was laughed at from every angle. Plus the whole premise of trading Gordon during by far his lowest value is silly to me but I obviously get the advantages too.

I appreciate that and I should explain. I was bored so I went down everyone's roster on hoopshype looking to see who could be available for a trade for us, there isn't much there by the way. I was trying to find someone making enough or overpaid that could use a change of scenery, making the rosters balance for each team because its not like Barnes would even be on the market. So, we would need to offer a sweetner to a team not looking to trade their guys. I'm just brainstorming to see if we can't be more balanced somehow, and yes I would even give up more in a deal in order to do that. That's why I was high on a Wiggins experiment too. No team is going to give us their best player without us gutting our team as well, and if we do that its a start from scratch scenario. We aren't in a position of strength, clearly after the failed attempts at the trade deadline we've been hearing about. I don't know, I just wanted to gauge opinion on here. Thanks for your input.

Guys like Barnes and Porter just don't seem like upgrades over Gordon, though. Both are paid a hell of a lot more than Gordon, neither offer Gordon's general all-round versatility as a defender, rebounder and someone who can make passes and help facilitate the offense. The improvement from 3 is pretty small, too. Yeah, Barnes is shooting 37% from 3 vs Gordon's 31% , but when you look at the numbers it's the difference of .2 3fgm's a game. So one in every 5 games Barnes will give you an extra 3 pointer over Gordon, but you'd be sacrificing a lot more court production for that one 3 pointer.

This. It's change for the sake of change. We aren't a little tinkering away from making this team competitive. This team's problem is not a lack of balance. It's a dearth of talent, specifically at the offensive end. Fultz is the closest thing we have to a playmaker and he is a work in progress. It's completely delusional to think that we are one shooter away from turning a Vucevic-led roster into something competitive. If we move Gordon, I want future assets in return. I want a legitimate rookie-scale talent and/or a decent 1st-round pick.

[PrimeThyme]

Gordon and Bamba for Harrison Barnes

Spoiler:

[j-ragg]

Barnes does shoot a decent % from 3. He’s probably better off as a full time 4 himself.

[spinedoc]

I appreciate that and I should explain. I was bored so I went down everyone's roster on hoopshype looking to see who could be available for a trade for us, there isn't much there by the way. I was trying to find someone making enough or overpaid that could use a change of scenery, making the rosters balance for each team because its not like Barnes would even be on the market. So, we would need to offer a sweetner to a team not looking to trade their guys. I'm just brainstorming to see if we can't be more balanced somehow, and yes I would even give up more in a deal in order to do that. That's why I was high on a Wiggins experiment too. No team is going to give us their best player without us gutting our team as well, and if we do that its a start from scratch scenario. We aren't in a position of strength, clearly after the failed attempts at the trade deadline we've been hearing about. I don't know, I just wanted to gauge opinion on here. Thanks for your input.

Guys like Barnes and Porter just don't seem like upgrades over Gordon, though. Both are paid a hell of a lot more than Gordon, neither offer Gordon's general all-round versatility as a defender, rebounder and someone who can make passes and help facilitate the offense. The improvement from 3 is pretty small, too. Yeah, Barnes is shooting 37% from 3 vs Gordon's 31% , but when you look at the numbers it's the difference of .2 3fgm's a game. So one in every 5 games Barnes will give you an extra 3 pointer over Gordon, but you'd be sacrificing a lot more court production for that one 3 pointer.

This. It's change for the sake of change. We aren't a little tinkering away from making this team competitive. This team's problem is not a lack of balance. It's a dearth of talent, specifically at the offensive end. Fultz is the closest thing we have to a playmaker and he is a work in progress. It's completely delusional to think that we are one shooter away from turning a Vucevic-led roster into something competitive. If we move Gordon, I want future assets in return. I want a legitimate rookie-scale talent and/or a decent 1st-round pick.

Change for the sake of it as you call it, or terms like delusional thinking isn't going to persuade me in the slightest. You don't like Barnes, that's fine, but the premise is solid. I believe this team is 60% constructed. What we lack is solid wings and outside shooting. What we have right now is an over-hyped tweener that can't fill a position properly, and causing others to play out of position as well. We need some better defined roles for this team instead of filling the cupboard with combo guys and seeing which lineup sticks. It lacks planning and vision. Guys like Phil Jackson always had a plan or a scheme, and he found certain types of players to run it. The triangle took specialty to a much different height than what we've been doing. Drafting guys like Gordon, then JI, and adding Aminu and Chuma seem overly redundant to me. Its fine if we have real wing players already cemented, but for me the delusion is throwing big money towards Evan and Ross thinking they can lock down a spot for us. We have our pg finally, our pf masquerading as a three too often, and yes a center talented enough to solidly fill the five spot. I often use Vuc as a trade chip to fill other needs, but that's only because he is our biggest asset right now. My preference is to move AG rather than Vuc, but I believe we are a decent and true sg and sf away from seriously contending. We have three out of five pieces, including some promise on the bench. You talk about getting young assets, we already have a very young team with Fultz, JI, Chuma, and Bamba, not counting this years draft pick. What we need is a plan, players to fit that, and balance up and down the roster that fill very specific roles and needs. Unfortunately, I don't see any of that at the moment. I know this though, Phil Jackson would have done wonders with Vuc in his triangle offense.

[The Effect]

Wait.........
people here are seriously taking about trades for Barnes and otto porter??

WHAT???

Talk about giving up. That is the epitome of swinging for a single (something our FO is great at) and moves that would rival the stupidity of trading Tobias harris for Brandon Jennings or Oladipo+sabonis for essentially terrence ross

This might be the most pathetic discussion ive ever seen on this board

[cedric76]

Porter for Gordon +aminu all day long.

Great move for present and future

Absolutely terrible move. We trade the better player and depth for an expiring, injury prone washout.

1st, i would argue that Gordon isn't the best player in this trade
We dump aminu salary
Get a sf that fit perfectly our team + great mentor for chuma (to teach him what a 3&d should do)
We dump Gordon (who still think he can be the next kobe)
If otto does well next season we can resign in on a decent deal
If otto doesn't do well we just let him go and have shed nearly 30M$ worth of salary

Win/win

Fultz. Mcw
Evan. Draft pick
Otto. Chuma. Ennis
Isaac
Vuc. Mo. Birch

[Magic_Johnny12]

Waiting for someone to say "BuT PoRtEr IsNt InJuRy PrOnE".

You guys just want to trade to make a trade, literally thats all it is. Harrison Barnes and Otto Porter? Really? Thats the best we could come up with lol

Let's get this clear right now, THERES NO NEED TO SHED AMINUS SALARYYYYYY. Where did this come from? Is it because he had an unfortunate completely unforeseen injury and had trouble adapting to a literal completely different role than he's been doing for the last 4 years? This premise needs to stop lol.

I'm on board with trading Aaron Gordon IF the trade makes sense, def. not for an expiring Otto Porter. If that were to happen we deserve everything that will come with that as a fan base.

IMO we resign MCW to a small 1+1 deal, he has proven to be one of the best hustle players in the league and thats no exaggeration. His toughness is unmatched on this team.

Hopefully luck out and draft Josh Green

A little insight on Green

Strengths: Elite defender who leads Arizona in steals per game … Picturesque frame for a NBA shooting guard at 6’6, 210 pounds … Has the ability to take over the PG role when Nico Mannion is not in the game with good ball-handling and excellent vision … Above average facilitator and three-point shooter … Sees the floor well and knows where to be for an extra pass and knockdown shot … Smart player who will pass up a three for a better shot for himself as he attempts to develop a better three-point shot … Great rebounder and outlet passer … Freakish 6’10 wingspan for a guard which contributes to his 1.6 steals per game and ability to guard multiple positions … Extremely athletic player who can play 3 or 4 different positions … Versatile player who can become a knockdown three-point shooter, pass-first point guard, or playmaking slasher depending on the team’s needs … Great composure and confidence on and off the court … Improved his free throw percentage from 59% to 78% since Under Armour Association in 2018 … Very high potential with all of the traits to be an elite NBA player


Trade for CJ McCollum

A few different kind of trade options w/ McCollum

1) Sign and trade Evan (for this ex. lets say 4yr/72m) + small filler like Birch + future FRP
2) Evan opt's in and traded + Mo Bamba
3) AG + Birch

I think Portland would rather have a combo of Evan & Bamba than Gordon so for this ex we'll go with that.

We are 1 of 4 teams left in the NBA that can use the BAE, I would use it on a stop-gap center. So one of the following..

Ian Mahinmi
Aron Baynes (very unlikely)
Robin Lopez
Dwight Howard (yes, I would welcome him back with open arms)
Kyle O'Quinn


Fultz/MCW/Green
McCollum/Ross/Green
Isaac/Chuma/Ennis
Gordon/Aminu/Chuma
Vuc/one of the centers above/Birch

I truly believe in Gordon's work ethic and know he hears all the noise and wants to prove himself as a premium player in this league, that along with Isaacs progression and Fultz having a full summer of development I think we try the Gordon/Isaac pairing once again with the addition of McCollum and wait until next deadline to see if it fixes itself.

The team above has key veterans, young core and direction, also another summer with the *same coach is the best thing this team could have.

[spinedoc]

Waiting for someone to say "BuT PoRtEr IsNt InJuRy PrOnE".

You guys just want to trade to make a trade, literally thats all it is. Harrison Barnes and Otto Porter? Really? Thats the best we could come up with lol

Let's get this clear right now, THERES NO NEED TO SHED AMINUS SALARYYYYYY. Where did this come from? Is it because he had an unfortunate completely unforeseen injury and had trouble adapting to a literal completely different role than he's been doing for the last 4 years? This premise needs to stop lol.

I'm on board with trading Aaron Gordon IF the trade makes sense, def. not for an expiring Otto Porter. If that were to happen we deserve everything that will come with that as a fan base.

IMO we resign MCW to a small 1+1 deal, he has proven to be one of the best hustle players in the league and thats no exaggeration. His toughness is unmatched on this team.

Hopefully luck out and draft Josh Green

A little insight on Green

Strengths: Elite defender who leads Arizona in steals per game … Picturesque frame for a NBA shooting guard at 6’6, 210 pounds … Has the ability to take over the PG role when Nico Mannion is not in the game with good ball-handling and excellent vision … Above average facilitator and three-point shooter … Sees the floor well and knows where to be for an extra pass and knockdown shot … Smart player who will pass up a three for a better shot for himself as he attempts to develop a better three-point shot … Great rebounder and outlet passer … Freakish 6’10 wingspan for a guard which contributes to his 1.6 steals per game and ability to guard multiple positions … Extremely athletic player who can play 3 or 4 different positions … Versatile player who can become a knockdown three-point shooter, pass-first point guard, or playmaking slasher depending on the team’s needs … Great composure and confidence on and off the court … Improved his free throw percentage from 59% to 78% since Under Armour Association in 2018 … Very high potential with all of the traits to be an elite NBA player


Trade for CJ McCollum

A few different kind of trade options w/ McCollum

1) Sign and trade Evan (for this ex. lets say 4yr/72m) + small filler like Birch + future FRP
2) Evan opt's in and traded + Mo Bamba
3) AG + Birch

I think Portland would rather have a combo of Evan & Bamba than Gordon so for this ex we'll go with that.

We are 1 of 4 teams left in the NBA that can use the BAE, I would use it on a stop-gap center. So one of the following..

Ian Mahinmi
Aron Baynes (very unlikely)
Robin Lopez
Dwight Howard (yes, I would welcome him back with open arms)
Kyle O'Quinn


Fultz/MCW/Green
McCollum/Ross/Green
Isaac/Chuma/Ennis
Gordon/Aminu/Chuma
Vuc/one of the centers above/Birch

I truly believe in Gordon's work ethic and know he hears all the noise and wants to prove himself as a premium player in this league, that along with Isaacs progression and Fultz having a full summer of development I think we try the Gordon/Isaac pairing once again with the addition of McCollum and wait until next deadline to see if it fixes itself.

The team above has key veterans, young core and direction, also another summer with the *same coach is the best thing this team could have.

Serenity now, serenity now, lol. Shhhh, its okay, no need to get your ire up. So, let's take a look at your proposal then. McCollum makes 30M next year, our side of the ledger is short unless we're giving Evan a huge raise. I don't see why he would deserve one, and I don't think Portland would see it either. Evan would have to opt out and resign as you suggested for around 25M per, otherwise we're around 8M short on the deal. Also, you have to target guys that are obtainable. Although Portland is highest in payroll, what makes you think that Evan and Bamba are enough to get it done? Because, Birch isn't going to get it done. Are we including draft picks as well? How much are we mortgaging our future for a smallish 6-3 sg? So, if I got this right AG would be enticing enough, let alone a Fournier deal, to get a guy like McCollum? Well, I can see why you hate a Barnes or Porter deal then. However, lets come back down to reality though. AG does not have that value, and Evan certainly doesn't have that. Hell, why stop there? Let's see if Lebron is available.

[Knightro]

Read on Twitter

Begley mostly speculating based on discussions the two teams had at this year's trade deadline, but something like...

Dinwiddie at 11.4M

for

Gordon at 18.1M

Doesn't work financially. The Nets could throw in Džanan Musa and Rodions Kurucs to make it work financially.

Or they could throw in one of those guys and their 2020 1st round pick after that player signs to make it work.

[spinedoc]

I'd take Dinwiddie, but I'd rather have Levert.

[Rainwater]

People have really over hyped AG. People want an all star for AG when AG is not even an all star. Looking at just talent, AG for Porter is pretty fair. That contract and injury history though........lol

[cedric76]

Waiting for someone to say "BuT PoRtEr IsNt InJuRy PrOnE".

You guys just want to trade to make a trade, literally thats all it is. Harrison Barnes and Otto Porter? Really? Thats the best we could come up with lol

Let's get this clear right now, THERES NO NEED TO SHED AMINUS SALARYYYYYY. Where did this come from? Is it because he had an unfortunate completely unforeseen injury and had trouble adapting to a literal completely different role than he's been doing for the last 4 years? This premise needs to stop lol.

I'm on board with trading Aaron Gordon IF the trade makes sense, def. not for an expiring Otto Porter. If that were to happen we deserve everything that will come with that as a fan base.

IMO we resign MCW to a small 1+1 deal, he has proven to be one of the best hustle players in the league and thats no exaggeration. His toughness is unmatched on this team.

Hopefully luck out and draft Josh Green

A little insight on Green

Strengths: Elite defender who leads Arizona in steals per game … Picturesque frame for a NBA shooting guard at 6’6, 210 pounds … Has the ability to take over the PG role when Nico Mannion is not in the game with good ball-handling and excellent vision … Above average facilitator and three-point shooter … Sees the floor well and knows where to be for an extra pass and knockdown shot … Smart player who will pass up a three for a better shot for himself as he attempts to develop a better three-point shot … Great rebounder and outlet passer … Freakish 6’10 wingspan for a guard which contributes to his 1.6 steals per game and ability to guard multiple positions … Extremely athletic player who can play 3 or 4 different positions … Versatile player who can become a knockdown three-point shooter, pass-first point guard, or playmaking slasher depending on the team’s needs … Great composure and confidence on and off the court … Improved his free throw percentage from 59% to 78% since Under Armour Association in 2018 … Very high potential with all of the traits to be an elite NBA player


Trade for CJ McCollum

A few different kind of trade options w/ McCollum

1) Sign and trade Evan (for this ex. lets say 4yr/72m) + small filler like Birch + future FRP
2) Evan opt's in and traded + Mo Bamba
3) AG + Birch

I think Portland would rather have a combo of Evan & Bamba than Gordon so for this ex we'll go with that.

We are 1 of 4 teams left in the NBA that can use the BAE, I would use it on a stop-gap center. So one of the following..

Ian Mahinmi
Aron Baynes (very unlikely)
Robin Lopez
Dwight Howard (yes, I would welcome him back with open arms)
Kyle O'Quinn


Fultz/MCW/Green
McCollum/Ross/Green
Isaac/Chuma/Ennis
Gordon/Aminu/Chuma
Vuc/one of the centers above/Birch

I truly believe in Gordon's work ethic and know he hears all the noise and wants to prove himself as a premium player in this league, that along with Isaacs progression and Fultz having a full summer of development I think we try the Gordon/Isaac pairing once again with the addition of McCollum and wait until next deadline to see if it fixes itself.

The team above has key veterans, young core and direction, also another summer with the *same coach is the best thing this team could have.

1st. Portland wouldn't do that
2nd we don't want cj here

[The Effect]

Hopefully luck out and draft Josh Green

A little insight on Green

Strengths: Elite defender who leads Arizona in steals per game … Picturesque frame for a NBA shooting guard at 6’6, 210 pounds … Has the ability to take over the PG role when Nico Mannion is not in the game with good ball-handling and excellent vision … Above average facilitator and three-point shooter … Sees the floor well and knows where to be for an extra pass and knockdown shot … Smart player who will pass up a three for a better shot for himself as he attempts to develop a better three-point shot … Great rebounder and outlet passer … Freakish 6’10 wingspan for a guard which contributes to his 1.6 steals per game and ability to guard multiple positions … Extremely athletic player who can play 3 or 4 different positions … Versatile player who can become a knockdown three-point shooter, pass-first point guard, or playmaking slasher depending on the team’s needs … Great composure and confidence on and off the court … Improved his free throw percentage from 59% to 78% since Under Armour Association in 2018 … Very high potential with all of the traits to be an elite NBA player

I love for us to get green
Wish he was a better 3pt shooter, but thats not a huge knock for me as he pretty good, just not great, but hes young and can improve

BUT, i have a feeling he has a skillset thats better suited for the NBA and will get drafted higher than people are expecting and wont be there for us

[zaymon]

Hopefully luck out and draft Josh Green

A little insight on Green

Strengths: Elite defender who leads Arizona in steals per game … Picturesque frame for a NBA shooting guard at 6’6, 210 pounds … Has the ability to take over the PG role when Nico Mannion is not in the game with good ball-handling and excellent vision … Above average facilitator and three-point shooter … Sees the floor well and knows where to be for an extra pass and knockdown shot … Smart player who will pass up a three for a better shot for himself as he attempts to develop a better three-point shot … Great rebounder and outlet passer … Freakish 6’10 wingspan for a guard which contributes to his 1.6 steals per game and ability to guard multiple positions … Extremely athletic player who can play 3 or 4 different positions … Versatile player who can become a knockdown three-point shooter, pass-first point guard, or playmaking slasher depending on the team’s needs … Great composure and confidence on and off the court … Improved his free throw percentage from 59% to 78% since Under Armour Association in 2018 … Very high potential with all of the traits to be an elite NBA player

I love for us to get green
Wish he was a better 3pt shooter, but thats not a huge knock for me as he pretty good, just not great, but hes young and can improve

BUT, i have a feeling he has a skillset thats better suited for the NBA and will get drafted higher than people are expecting and wont be there for us

I am on the opposite site. I think Green would be the worst possible pick for us. We really dont need another limited offensive player. I could swallow his other flaws, but his shooting is just a deal breaker for me. I would take Vassell, Bey, Mannion or Nesmith without blink of an eye.

[Stuff]

Orl- Fournier(s+t), Isaac, Aminu, 2020 1st, future 2nd (23-24)

Wash- Beal, Troy Brown Jr


Fultz, Dj (resign?), ?
Beal, Ross, Frazier
TBJ, Ennis, ?
AG, Okeke, ?
Vuc, Bamba, Birch


The idea of moving Isaac isn't a popular one in this forum, but something like this could balance out the line-up. Would still need to fill a few holes which would need to be done anyways.(Dj, Mcw, Iwundu, etc.....)
Okeke would have to be able to handle back-up duty for AG, which as of now is an unknown.
We would lose Isaac, but gain a legit scorer, and a solid young player at a position of need.

What do you guys think?

[scottyg]

Bulls really want Aaron Gordon so I came up with couple ideas .
Trade #1

- Thad Young
- Christiano Felicio
- bulls 1st rd draft pick ( top 8 protected )

Trade # 2
-Tomas Satoransky
+ Thad young
- future 2nd



Trade # 3
- Otto Porter
- chandler Hutchison

For
- Gordon and Aminu

Trade # 3
- Otto Porter
- Thad Young
- Daniel Gafford
- chandler Hutchison

For
- Vucevic
- Gordon

Thoughts