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2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm

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Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm 

Post#241 » by zaymon » Wed Apr 9, 2025 4:47 pm

VFX wrote:
JF5 wrote:
VFX wrote:
Nobody disagrees that 80% of the time Paolo and Franz are going to be touching the ball.

It's about how this hypothetical point guard can do a better job than Joseph or Ingles, in starters minutes, setting the tempo or "organizing the offense" as you say.

Improving their decision making in order to avoid turnovers AND bad offensive possessions is the caveat here. The ball sticking with Paolo and making terrible low % shot choices is both a developmental issue that can be solved with coaching/time and something that can be alleviated with a competent point guard better than Corey Joseph.

Passes can be made to Paolo or Franz getting them into isolation scoring opportunities. They dont need to bring the ball up and slash to the rim every posession regardless of how defenses are set or adapting to them. It's just smarter basketball that hasnt been possible because of roster construction. It IS an indictment of how they built the roster.


But you're talking about positioning as to how Paolo and Franz get the ball TO THEN create for themselves or others.

Like for example if this PG gets the ball he is most likely going to dump it to Paolo in the Low/High post or at the FT line/Just inside the arc depending where he wants the ball and then he decides what he's going to do afterwards in the triple threat stance. I don't think he'll ever have much of an off ball game.

This PG is not going to be like a Steve Nash/Jason Kidd/John Stockton/Tyrese Haliburton type of playmaker where the passes are going to end up being assist/guided to baskets.

It's going to be more "I'm going to get us into sets properly" type of PG if things start to get shaky on that end of the floor. The onus is still going to be on Franz and Paolo generally speaking in these situations to make the right decisions.


It’s a two-fold scenario. It is easier for both of them to make quick correct reads when positioned and in the rhythm of a moving, flowing, offense.

If we are going to assume both Paolo and Franz will develop into better shooters from outside, then sets from said PG must be more complex than handing the ball to either of them and standing back as they iso. Is it every single play? No, but the variety is what keeps defenses honest. That only happens with acquired skillsets outside of continual development.

Nobody said this player needs to be those guys. This player needs to be better than Ingles or Joseph without one foot into retirement. Is that bar too high?

Yes, Paolo and Franz need to be reading and making the right decisions. For stretches at a time they do and for some stretches they don’t. The argument is that they can develop the ability to make those reads better if they get more comfortable with a less stagnant moving offense that isn’t standing around watching them take bad shots for lack of options.


I dont see many signs Paolo can run our offense. If him and Franz take 80%of our possesions than letting guys like Cory move the ball and focusing on defensive center makes more sense than paying for good PG who we will use sporadically.
Anyone seeing it similar to me ?
My money is on Banchero going number 1 !
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Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm 

Post#242 » by eyriq » Wed Apr 9, 2025 4:56 pm

Knightro wrote:
Imagine not considering the 1995 Magic led by 22 year old Shaq and 23 year old Penny who won 57 games and went to the NBA Finals a "young core" in your data because Nick Anderson happened to be 27 as the third leading minutes played player.

Just an insanely cherry picked data set to make your point look better than it is.


You are making an unnecessary fuss. Here is a list of teams with young cores 23 and younger (the 95 team has an average age 24.55, the '94 team however qualifies).

Orlando would be in the 89th percentile in this context, down from the 94th percentile.

TeamYear Win % Age
OKC 2012 0.712 22.71
OKC 2011 0.671 21.73
BOS 2020 0.667 22.89
DEN 2019 0.659 22.29
GSW 1994 0.610 22.47
ORL 1994 0.610 22.89
OKC 2010 0.610 21.67
NJN 1983 0.598 22.96
ORL 2024 0.573 21.61
CHI 2005 0.573 22.78
CLE 2022 0.537 21.01
DEN 2004 0.524 22.32
MIL 2015 0.500 21.92
SEA 1991 0.500 22.36
CHI 2006 0.500 22.45
MIN 1997 0.488 22.32
OKC 2023 0.488 21.69
DET 1982 0.476 22.94
MIA 2019 0.476 22.89
DAL 1983 0.463 23.00
BOS 1998 0.439 21.57
DAL 1995 0.439 22.26
ORL 2016 0.427 22.39
CLE 2004 0.427 22.71
NOP 2014 0.415 22.54
ORL 2023 0.415 21.43
DEN 2016 0.402 21.77
CLE 2014 0.402 22.65
MIL 2016 0.402 21.76
DET 2015 0.390 21.92
BOS 1999 0.380 21.66
PHI 1998 0.378 22.62
MIN 2017 0.378 22.82
CLE 1987 0.378 22.68
ATL 2007 0.366 22.01
ORL 2017 0.354 22.31
ATL 2019 0.354 21.19
PHO 2004 0.354 22.89
DET 2013 0.354 22.30
MIN 2016 0.354 21.49
SAC 2012 0.333 22.27
LAL 2017 0.317 21.70
CLE 2021 0.306 21.29
OKC 2021 0.306 19.95
ORL 2015 0.305 22.01
WAS 2004 0.305 22.62
SDC 1983 0.305 22.66
WAS 2012 0.303 21.89
ATL 2020 0.299 21.34
MIN 2020 0.297 21.31
BOS 2007 0.293 22.99
CLE 2013 0.293 22.13
OKC 2022 0.293 21.09
MEM 2009 0.293 22.22
OKC 2009 0.280 20.68
DET 2022 0.280 20.82
WAS 2011 0.280 22.19
ORL 2022 0.268 20.91
PHI 1997 0.268 22.96
SAS 2023 0.268 21.89
SAS 2024 0.268 22.32
HOU 2023 0.268 20.29
VAN 2000 0.268 22.66
CHA 2013 0.256 22.28
PHO 2018 0.256 21.39
SEA 2008 0.244 22.42
CLE 2019 0.232 22.84
PHO 2019 0.232 21.36
CHA 2005 0.220 22.97
WAS 2025 0.215 21.22
SAC 2009 0.207 22.67
LAL 2016 0.207 21.08
CHI 2000 0.207 21.68
UTA 2025 0.203 21.30
MIN 2015 0.195 20.86
MIN 2010 0.183 22.71
LAC 2000 0.183 22.54
CHI 2001 0.183 21.97
DET 2024 0.171 21.05
VAN 1999 0.160 21.78
ATL 2005 0.159 21.51
CHA 2012 0.106 22.37
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Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm 

Post#243 » by VFX » Wed Apr 9, 2025 5:49 pm

zaymon wrote:
VFX wrote:
JF5 wrote:
But you're talking about positioning as to how Paolo and Franz get the ball TO THEN create for themselves or others.

Like for example if this PG gets the ball he is most likely going to dump it to Paolo in the Low/High post or at the FT line/Just inside the arc depending where he wants the ball and then he decides what he's going to do afterwards in the triple threat stance. I don't think he'll ever have much of an off ball game.

This PG is not going to be like a Steve Nash/Jason Kidd/John Stockton/Tyrese Haliburton type of playmaker where the passes are going to end up being assist/guided to baskets.

It's going to be more "I'm going to get us into sets properly" type of PG if things start to get shaky on that end of the floor. The onus is still going to be on Franz and Paolo generally speaking in these situations to make the right decisions.


It’s a two-fold scenario. It is easier for both of them to make quick correct reads when positioned and in the rhythm of a moving, flowing, offense.

If we are going to assume both Paolo and Franz will develop into better shooters from outside, then sets from said PG must be more complex than handing the ball to either of them and standing back as they iso. Is it every single play? No, but the variety is what keeps defenses honest. That only happens with acquired skillsets outside of continual development.

Nobody said this player needs to be those guys. This player needs to be better than Ingles or Joseph without one foot into retirement. Is that bar too high?

Yes, Paolo and Franz need to be reading and making the right decisions. For stretches at a time they do and for some stretches they don’t. The argument is that they can develop the ability to make those reads better if they get more comfortable with a less stagnant moving offense that isn’t standing around watching them take bad shots for lack of options.


I dont see many signs Paolo can run our offense. If him and Franz take 80%of our possesions than letting guys like Cory move the ball and focusing on defensive center makes more sense than paying for good PG who we will use sporadically.
Anyone seeing it similar to me ?


Its the semantics game of what "running" means.

Collectively, I don't buy that Franz and Paolo on 80% usage can "run" things without shooting a much higher % from outside in their sets. There has to be a huge development into that area to consider the offense "elite". This combined with a point guard that can get them into easier scoring opportunities instead of stuck possessions.

There is really no reason a point guard, that can stretch the floor, can't run an effective pick and roll with either Franz or Paolo. Not really sure why that has been completely off the table. People act like the entire offense must be limited to Paolo catching the ball and making decisions. Yeah, maybe if you are Mosely and Weltman is vehemently against any other alternative.
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Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm 

Post#244 » by drsd » Wed Apr 9, 2025 6:24 pm

Did Orlando win all South East divisional tiebreakers with this win? I think YES!
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Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm 

Post#245 » by Ducklett » Wed Apr 9, 2025 6:36 pm

This game thread became something of a watery dog poop.

I got stuck with Atlanta commentary (which is awful, BTW, and I usually like the opposing team commentary) but one of the people made an interesting observation/point about how having Franz and Paolo bringing up the ball was wearing down and tiring their guys out having to defend it. Not sure that is a universal truth, but I do wonder if it is true.
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Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm 

Post#246 » by Knightro » Wed Apr 9, 2025 6:39 pm

eyriq wrote:
Knightro wrote:
Imagine not considering the 1995 Magic led by 22 year old Shaq and 23 year old Penny who won 57 games and went to the NBA Finals a "young core" in your data because Nick Anderson happened to be 27 as the third leading minutes played player.

Just an insanely cherry picked data set to make your point look better than it is.


You are making an unnecessary fuss. Here is a list of teams with young cores 23 and younger (the 95 team has an average age 24.55, the '94 team however qualifies).

Orlando would be in the 89th percentile in this context, down from the 94th percentile.

TeamYear Win % Age
OKC 2012 0.712 22.71
OKC 2011 0.671 21.73
BOS 2020 0.667 22.89
DEN 2019 0.659 22.29
GSW 1994 0.610 22.47
ORL 1994 0.610 22.89
OKC 2010 0.610 21.67
NJN 1983 0.598 22.96
ORL 2024 0.573 21.61
CHI 2005 0.573 22.78
CLE 2022 0.537 21.01
DEN 2004 0.524 22.32
MIL 2015 0.500 21.92
SEA 1991 0.500 22.36
CHI 2006 0.500 22.45
MIN 1997 0.488 22.32
OKC 2023 0.488 21.69
DET 1982 0.476 22.94
MIA 2019 0.476 22.89
DAL 1983 0.463 23.00
BOS 1998 0.439 21.57
DAL 1995 0.439 22.26
ORL 2016 0.427 22.39
CLE 2004 0.427 22.71
NOP 2014 0.415 22.54
ORL 2023 0.415 21.43
DEN 2016 0.402 21.77
CLE 2014 0.402 22.65
MIL 2016 0.402 21.76
DET 2015 0.390 21.92
BOS 1999 0.380 21.66
PHI 1998 0.378 22.62
MIN 2017 0.378 22.82
CLE 1987 0.378 22.68
ATL 2007 0.366 22.01
ORL 2017 0.354 22.31
ATL 2019 0.354 21.19
PHO 2004 0.354 22.89
DET 2013 0.354 22.30
MIN 2016 0.354 21.49
SAC 2012 0.333 22.27
LAL 2017 0.317 21.70
CLE 2021 0.306 21.29
OKC 2021 0.306 19.95
ORL 2015 0.305 22.01
WAS 2004 0.305 22.62
SDC 1983 0.305 22.66
WAS 2012 0.303 21.89
ATL 2020 0.299 21.34
MIN 2020 0.297 21.31
BOS 2007 0.293 22.99
CLE 2013 0.293 22.13
OKC 2022 0.293 21.09
MEM 2009 0.293 22.22
OKC 2009 0.280 20.68
DET 2022 0.280 20.82
WAS 2011 0.280 22.19
ORL 2022 0.268 20.91
PHI 1997 0.268 22.96
SAS 2023 0.268 21.89
SAS 2024 0.268 22.32
HOU 2023 0.268 20.29
VAN 2000 0.268 22.66
CHA 2013 0.256 22.28
PHO 2018 0.256 21.39
SEA 2008 0.244 22.42
CLE 2019 0.232 22.84
PHO 2019 0.232 21.36
CHA 2005 0.220 22.97
WAS 2025 0.215 21.22
SAC 2009 0.207 22.67
LAL 2016 0.207 21.08
CHI 2000 0.207 21.68
UTA 2025 0.203 21.30
MIN 2015 0.195 20.86
MIN 2010 0.183 22.71
LAC 2000 0.183 22.54
CHI 2001 0.183 21.97
DET 2024 0.171 21.05
VAN 1999 0.160 21.78
ATL 2005 0.159 21.51
CHA 2012 0.106 22.37


How many of these teams acquired their three players aged 22-23 or under all with top 8 picks?

Sample decreases tremendously when you look at that doesn’t it?
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Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm 

Post#247 » by JF5 » Wed Apr 9, 2025 7:24 pm

VFX wrote:
zaymon wrote:
VFX wrote:
It’s a two-fold scenario. It is easier for both of them to make quick correct reads when positioned and in the rhythm of a moving, flowing, offense.

If we are going to assume both Paolo and Franz will develop into better shooters from outside, then sets from said PG must be more complex than handing the ball to either of them and standing back as they iso. Is it every single play? No, but the variety is what keeps defenses honest. That only happens with acquired skillsets outside of continual development.

Nobody said this player needs to be those guys. This player needs to be better than Ingles or Joseph without one foot into retirement. Is that bar too high?

Yes, Paolo and Franz need to be reading and making the right decisions. For stretches at a time they do and for some stretches they don’t. The argument is that they can develop the ability to make those reads better if they get more comfortable with a less stagnant moving offense that isn’t standing around watching them take bad shots for lack of options.


I dont see many signs Paolo can run our offense. If him and Franz take 80%of our possesions than letting guys like Cory move the ball and focusing on defensive center makes more sense than paying for good PG who we will use sporadically.
Anyone seeing it similar to me ?


Its the semantics game of what "running" means.

Collectively, I don't buy that Franz and Paolo on 80% usage can "run" things without shooting a much higher % from outside in their sets. There has to be a huge development into that area to consider the offense "elite". This combined with a point guard that can get them into easier scoring opportunities instead of stuck possessions.

There is really no reason a point guard, that can stretch the floor, can't run an effective pick and roll with either Franz or Paolo. Not really sure why that has been completely off the table. People act like the entire offense must be limited to Paolo catching the ball and making decisions. Yeah, maybe if you are Mosely and Weltman is vehemently against any other alternative.


In the modern NBA teams just run plays through their best players all the time. That's why I'm saying there isn't such a thing as a PG anymore.

Like even looking at the Celtics. They traded for Jrue Holiday to be the steady presence. But they still run a lot actions through Tatum and Brown.

Holiday in the last 2 Seasons has only averaged 4.8 assist in the 2023-2024 season and 3.8 assist this season. Tatum leads the team with 6 assist a game this season.

I understand what you're saying about a PG but regardless if it's iso, p&r, high post, low post, nail game. Your best players will always be involved in those actions 75-80 percent of the time as they draw the most attention naturally to set them up for other guys. That's why I'm more focused on Paolo/Franz in conversations like this.
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Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm 

Post#248 » by VFX » Wed Apr 9, 2025 7:49 pm

JF5 wrote:
VFX wrote:
zaymon wrote:
I dont see many signs Paolo can run our offense. If him and Franz take 80%of our possesions than letting guys like Cory move the ball and focusing on defensive center makes more sense than paying for good PG who we will use sporadically.
Anyone seeing it similar to me ?


Its the semantics game of what "running" means.

Collectively, I don't buy that Franz and Paolo on 80% usage can "run" things without shooting a much higher % from outside in their sets. There has to be a huge development into that area to consider the offense "elite". This combined with a point guard that can get them into easier scoring opportunities instead of stuck possessions.

There is really no reason a point guard, that can stretch the floor, can't run an effective pick and roll with either Franz or Paolo. Not really sure why that has been completely off the table. People act like the entire offense must be limited to Paolo catching the ball and making decisions. Yeah, maybe if you are Mosely and Weltman is vehemently against any other alternative.


In the modern NBA teams just run plays through their best players all the time. That's why I'm saying there isn't such a thing as a PG anymore.

Like even looking at the Celtics. They traded for Jrue Holiday to be the steady presence. But they still run a lot actions through Tatum and Brown.

Holiday in the last 2 Seasons has only averaged 4.8 assist in the 2023-2024 season and 3.8 assist this season. Tatum leads the team with 6 assist a game this season.

I understand what you're saying about a PG but regardless if it's iso, p&r, high post, low post, nail game. Your best players will always be involved in those actions 75-80 percent of the time as they draw the most attention naturally to set them up for other guys. That's why I'm more focused on Paolo/Franz in conversations like this.


And thats all fine.

The bottom line is that Tatum and Brown are just "running" offense entirely differently. Not only that, but they HAVE options. This is like arguing people want less options than more. Saying something like "we don't need Jamal Murray because we have Jokic". Yeah? Well why dont you want both so the offense isn't as predictable as possible?

Tatum is averaging 10 3pa per game on .350. He's also averaging 6 assists per game.
That is WITH having these steady guards like Holiday and White next to him.
As a matter of fact, Derrick White averages the same assists as Franz as their third option on offense on less usage.

That is why I dislike using Boston as some kind of similar profile to use as a "gotcha" in these arguments. Paolo and Franz do not operate the same way regardless of surrounding players.

Saying PG's aren't a thing anymore is just an excuse to the FO acquiring one at some point. People accurately pointing out that Corey Joseph makes the offense appear better for some reason as opposed to Anthony Black and KCP for the latter stretch of the season just makes people grind their gears when they've chosen to die on the "Two Point Forward" offense that is never going to work. It's ok for people to be wrong about something they seemed pretty confident about in June.

Its this weird fascination with people defending the idea that the FO was justified in never filling out necessary missing skillsets they absolutely could have at some point.
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Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm 

Post#249 » by JF5 » Wed Apr 9, 2025 8:24 pm

VFX wrote:
JF5 wrote:
VFX wrote:
Its the semantics game of what "running" means.

Collectively, I don't buy that Franz and Paolo on 80% usage can "run" things without shooting a much higher % from outside in their sets. There has to be a huge development into that area to consider the offense "elite". This combined with a point guard that can get them into easier scoring opportunities instead of stuck possessions.

There is really no reason a point guard, that can stretch the floor, can't run an effective pick and roll with either Franz or Paolo. Not really sure why that has been completely off the table. People act like the entire offense must be limited to Paolo catching the ball and making decisions. Yeah, maybe if you are Mosely and Weltman is vehemently against any other alternative.


In the modern NBA teams just run plays through their best players all the time. That's why I'm saying there isn't such a thing as a PG anymore.

Like even looking at the Celtics. They traded for Jrue Holiday to be the steady presence. But they still run a lot actions through Tatum and Brown.

Holiday in the last 2 Seasons has only averaged 4.8 assist in the 2023-2024 season and 3.8 assist this season. Tatum leads the team with 6 assist a game this season.

I understand what you're saying about a PG but regardless if it's iso, p&r, high post, low post, nail game. Your best players will always be involved in those actions 75-80 percent of the time as they draw the most attention naturally to set them up for other guys. That's why I'm more focused on Paolo/Franz in conversations like this.


And thats all fine.

The bottom line is that Tatum and Brown are just "running" offense entirely differently. Not only that, but they HAVE options. This is like arguing people want less options than more. Saying something like "we don't need Jamal Murray because we have Jokic". Yeah? Well why dont you want both so the offense isn't as predictable as possible?

Tatum is averaging 10 3pa per game on .350. He's also averaging 6 assists per game.
That is WITH having these steady guards like Holiday and White next to him.
As a matter of fact, Derrick White averages the same assists as Franz as their third option on offense on less usage.

That is why I dislike using Boston as some kind of similar profile to use as a "gotcha" in these arguments. Paolo and Franz do not operate the same way regardless of surrounding players.

Saying PG's aren't a thing anymore is just an excuse to the FO acquiring one at some point. People accurately pointing out that Corey Joseph makes the offense appear better for some reason as opposed to Anthony Black and KCP for the latter stretch of the season just makes people grind their gears when they've chosen to die on the "Two Point Forward" offense that is never going to work. It's ok for people to be wrong about something they seemed pretty confident about in June.

Its this weird fascination with people defending the idea that the FO was justified in never filling out necessary missing skillsets they absolutely could have at some point.


Eh, Boston traded for Jrue Holiday because of what happened in the 2022 finals against the Warriors (a team of which White was on and failed due to failed advance handling and playmaking they didn't have in that series). Boston fans were screaming for a PG for years.

He's an actual playmaking/steady presence PG, Derrick White was not so they moved him to the SG position. White is more similar to a Jalen Suggs.

Again, you're not paying attention. I'm agreeing that this team needs a PG. But Franz and Paolo because they're going to be the primary options/ball handlers need to better their decision making/turnovers.

An occasional PG ball handler is not going to have the ball in their hands in crucial situations or when you need a bucket. You're going to give the ball to your best players 9 times out of 10.

I'm saying if the Magic get Immanuel Quickley for example, is he going to cut into Paolo and Franz's touches? Probably not especially when they're primarily slashers/drivers that need the ball in their hands to be most effective. At least Brown and Tatum can space the floor at a high volume as you mentioned.
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Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm 

Post#250 » by VFX » Wed Apr 9, 2025 10:15 pm

JF5 wrote:
VFX wrote:
JF5 wrote:
In the modern NBA teams just run plays through their best players all the time. That's why I'm saying there isn't such a thing as a PG anymore.

Like even looking at the Celtics. They traded for Jrue Holiday to be the steady presence. But they still run a lot actions through Tatum and Brown.

Holiday in the last 2 Seasons has only averaged 4.8 assist in the 2023-2024 season and 3.8 assist this season. Tatum leads the team with 6 assist a game this season.

I understand what you're saying about a PG but regardless if it's iso, p&r, high post, low post, nail game. Your best players will always be involved in those actions 75-80 percent of the time as they draw the most attention naturally to set them up for other guys. That's why I'm more focused on Paolo/Franz in conversations like this.


And thats all fine.

The bottom line is that Tatum and Brown are just "running" offense entirely differently. Not only that, but they HAVE options. This is like arguing people want less options than more. Saying something like "we don't need Jamal Murray because we have Jokic". Yeah? Well why dont you want both so the offense isn't as predictable as possible?

Tatum is averaging 10 3pa per game on .350. He's also averaging 6 assists per game.
That is WITH having these steady guards like Holiday and White next to him.
As a matter of fact, Derrick White averages the same assists as Franz as their third option on offense on less usage.

That is why I dislike using Boston as some kind of similar profile to use as a "gotcha" in these arguments. Paolo and Franz do not operate the same way regardless of surrounding players.

Saying PG's aren't a thing anymore is just an excuse to the FO acquiring one at some point. People accurately pointing out that Corey Joseph makes the offense appear better for some reason as opposed to Anthony Black and KCP for the latter stretch of the season just makes people grind their gears when they've chosen to die on the "Two Point Forward" offense that is never going to work. It's ok for people to be wrong about something they seemed pretty confident about in June.

Its this weird fascination with people defending the idea that the FO was justified in never filling out necessary missing skillsets they absolutely could have at some point.


Eh, Boston traded for Jrue Holiday because of what happened in the 2022 finals against the Warriors (a team of which White was on and failed due to failed advance handling and playmaking they didn't have in that series). Boston fans were screaming for a PG for years.

He's an actual playmaking/steady presence PG, Derrick White was not so they moved him to the SG position. White is more similar to a Jalen Suggs.

Again, you're not paying attention. I'm agreeing that this team needs a PG. But Franz and Paolo because they're going to be the primary options/ball handlers need to better their decision making/turnovers.

An occasional PG ball handler is not going to have the ball in their hands in crucial situations or when you need a bucket. You're going to give the ball to your best players 9 times out of 10.

I'm saying if the Magic get Immanuel Quickley for example, is he going to cut into Paolo and Franz's touches? Probably not especially when they're primarily slashers/drivers that need the ball in their hands to be most effective. At least Brown and Tatum can space the floor at a high volume as you mentioned.


And I'd argue that the entire thing doesn't work unless Paolo and Franz become capable shooters at a similar level. Thats like saying you want a less efficient offense AND less options because you think the less efficient offense should be pure.

I know you agree that the team needs a point guard. You keep coming back to that point here thinking that it supersedes every other comment being made.

It's just hard to buy when you simultaneously say that it isn't an indictment on the FO that relying on Corey Joseph or Ingles for needed ball movement OR yknow...

JF5 wrote:Also, they wanted Paolo and Franz to develop playmaking skills aswell. And look who was the beneficiary of not having a PG during that time. It was Franz who took a bigger leap than most here probably imagined.

You don't see this version of Franz with a healthy Paolo and a PG who has the ball in their hands a lot. This is why this season was a success to me. You got a definitive second guy or 1b. who can carry your offense when Paolo is struggling or hurt."


So are you saying you think the team needs a PG, but you think this season was a success particularly because they don't have one for developmental reasons?

They should cut into their touches I'd argue. Why? Because neither of them are shooting well enough or doing anything drastically different between the two of them that make the offense more than one dimension. Even if that wasn't the case, it's better than having 1 shooting guard on the perimeter have a "good shooting night" once every 5 games at the expense of more playmaking or making your two MAX players better. Neither Suggs or KCP are Holiday or White. Suggs is closer to White, but again, its an entirely different system regardless.
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Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm 

Post#251 » by JF5 » Thu Apr 10, 2025 12:29 am

VFX wrote:
And I'd argue that the entire thing doesn't work unless Paolo and Franz become capable shooters at a similar level. Thats like saying you want a less efficient offense AND less options because you think the less efficient offense should be pure.


In a perfect world... yes, they need to be better shooters. But you build around their strengths accordingly.

You don't add a redundant slashing/penetrating guard who can't space the floor. That makes no sense next to two guys that already put pressure on drives on an elite level.

VFX wrote:I know you agree that the team needs a point guard. You keep coming back to that point here thinking that it supersedes every other comment being made.


Because both are true statements at once. You're going to deny Paolo and Franz don't need to be better decision makers and ballhandlers?

Also, you're eventually misquote me (again) and say this team does not need a PG (which you end up doing again later on).

VFX wrote:It's just hard to buy when you simultaneously say that it isn't an indictment on the FO that relying on Corey Joseph or Ingles for needed ball movement OR yknow...


For me it doesn't necessarily matter as we're still in a developmental year. The previous year they heavily exceeded expectations. So I'm not about fast forwarding the process.

I told you this before in another thread that I felt the FO was focused on internal development and seeing how things went before adding guys to the squad. But obviously you don't agree with that approach.

VFX wrote:So are you saying you think the team needs a PG, but you think this season was a success particularly because they don't have one for developmental reasons?


LMAO, This is why having a conversation with you is so difficult as you like spin quotes without adding more context as to what I said.

If you look at the GREATER context of the full statement. I stated Franz Wagner would've not been this Superstar version of himself that he is today if we had a PG taking away his on ball duties that he was tasked with.

The NBA community was questioning if Franz was worth max money all summer. Paolo goes down and Franz shuts down the critics.

You essentially have 2 projected Superstar players you can build around which not too many teams in league history can say they've drafted.

VFX wrote:They should cut into their touches I'd argue. Why? Because neither of them are shooting well enough or doing anything drastically different between the two of them that make the offense more than one dimension. Even if that wasn't the case, it's better than having 1 shooting guard on the perimeter have a "good shooting night" once every 5 games at the expense of more playmaking or making your two MAX players better. Neither Suggs or KCP are Holiday or White. Suggs is closer to White, but again, its an entirely different system regardless.


The "Ocassional" Ballhandler who is the 3rd option. If you look at modern NBA history the 3rd guy rarely gets offensive touches or generally plays more offball.

The LeBron James big 3s in Miami and Cleveland? Chris Bosh and Kevin Love became spot up shooters and they were barely able to play to their post strengths with LeBron. The Warriors with KD/Steph/Klay? Klay is obviously an elite offball player who only took 11 dribbles to score 60 during that time.
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Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm 

Post#252 » by VFX » Thu Apr 10, 2025 1:22 am

JF5 wrote:
VFX wrote:
And I'd argue that the entire thing doesn't work unless Paolo and Franz become capable shooters at a similar level. Thats like saying you want a less efficient offense AND less options because you think the less efficient offense should be pure.


In a perfect world... yes, they need to be better shooters. But you build around their strengths accordingly.

You don't add a redundant slashing/penetrating guard who can't space the floor. That makes no sense next to two guys that already put pressure on drives on an elite level.

Who insinuated this as the archetype to pair with them? Are you just making this up? How does a pick and roll initiator/perimeter threat fit into that extreme example you are giving? You are just saying things. Orlando already has that player. His name is Anthony Black.

VFX wrote:I know you agree that the team needs a point guard. You keep coming back to that point here thinking that it supersedes every other comment being made.


Because both are true statements at once. You're going to deny Paolo and Franz don't need to be better decision makers and ballhandlers?

Also, you're eventually misquote me (again) and say this team does not need a PG (which you end up doing again later on).

Using your direct quotes isn’t misquoting you lol. No, actually saying the “season is a success” because it made Paolo/Franz become better decision makers (they didn’t), and then saying they need a point guard when pressed, due to you telling another poster you “don’t like the narrative” this team needs a point guard. Is speaking out of both sides of your mouth. If I call you out on it your response is that I’m taking something out of context? No.

VFX wrote:It's just hard to buy when you simultaneously say that it isn't an indictment on the FO that relying on Corey Joseph or Ingles for needed ball movement OR yknow...


For me it doesn't necessarily matter as we're still in a developmental year. The previous year they heavily exceeded expectations. So I'm not about fast forwarding the process.

I told you this before in another thread that I felt the FO was focused on internal development and seeing how things went before adding guys to the squad. But obviously you don't agree with that approach.

And there’s the truth. So just say that. Say you don’t care or think they need a point guard instead of going back and forth with me pretending you believe something you obviously don’t. LOL You say I’m misquoting what you say and I don’t need to. You contradict yourself every time I push you on this topic slightly.

VFX wrote:They should cut into their touches I'd argue. Why? Because neither of them are shooting well enough or doing anything drastically different between the two of them that make the offense more than one dimension. Even if that wasn't the case, it's better than having 1 shooting guard on the perimeter have a "good shooting night" once every 5 games at the expense of more playmaking or making your two MAX players better. Neither Suggs or KCP are Holiday or White. Suggs is closer to White, but again, its an entirely different system regardless.


The "Ocassional" Ballhandler who is the 3rd option. If you look at modern NBA history the 3rd guy rarely gets offensive touches or generally plays more offball.

The LeBron James big 3s in Miami and Cleveland? Chris Bosh and Kevin Love became spot up shooters and they were barely able to play to their post strengths with LeBron. The Warriors with KD/Steph/Klay? Klay is obviously an elite offball player who only took 11 dribbles to score 60 during that time.

Yeah, the problem with that comparison is that Paolo and Franz are NOT LeBron James and Dwayne Wade. They aren’t that level of playmaker and after a year of development without a point guard they still aren’t. Thats the disconnect. You buy them as playmakers and I don’t based on 3-4 seasons of data. They are iso scorers and between the two of them they are 2-2.5 level scorers SOME nights.

So when I see posters outside of you and I bickering say something like “wow we could really use a point guard” and I see you jump in to get a “well acktually” retort with some weird defense as to why they don’t need one, or didn’t have one this season in particular, then I’ll just keep scrolling because I know it’s not worth arguing.
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Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm 

Post#253 » by ibraheim718 » Wed Apr 16, 2025 1:17 am

Most of these offensive sets are so bad
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Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm 

Post#254 » by cedric76 » Wed Apr 16, 2025 4:43 pm

I m not a fan of Cole s bbiq, however he played so well last night that I come here to give him his praises
Suggs/Sexton/Joseph
Murphy/Black/Lanier or brea
F-Wagner/O'Neil/da Silva
Banchero/Isaac/O'Neil
Carter/M-Wagner/ji/Fa vet big
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Re: 2024-2025 Regular Season Game 79: Atlanta Hawks (37-41) at Orlando Magic (38-40) - 7pm 

Post#255 » by Optimus_Steel » Wed Apr 16, 2025 8:51 pm

Trae gets thrown out and the arena plays the Curb Your Enthusiasm music, well played.
aka: prorl

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