THE Aaron Gordon thread

[Neon1]

Stop using Frye abomination of a deal to prove Tobias was given low ball offer, when he wasn't. Tobias was offered more than Markief Morris deal (4/32M), which was more than fair. Frye was complete blunder by Henny and he was called out on that by me and few other people in Channing Frye thread when he was signed (actually I even bumped that thread few months ago just to prove how people were blindly defending Henny).

And yes, signing Frye to that much money contributed to Tobias refusing extension deal at 9M.

Markieff (and his brother) made their own contract.

The Suns wanted Markieff, and the twins don't want to seperate, so the Suns said we give you 4 yrs 52 million, you two can split it however you want.

They made their own deal and even share the same bank account.

He basically paid his brother 4/20.

[seeingstars]

If we really want to be a defensive power house, they should add defensive goal incentives

[JF5]

If we really want to be a defensive power house, they should add defensive goal incentives

Yeah, but you can't sacrifice your offense in the process.

[JF5]

Lets hope Aaron can become as good as Leonard

Kawhi will turn 25 in June. Aaron is still 19 until September. It's gonna take patience but I believe the player that Gordon will be at age 25 will be among the favorite Magic players of all time.

He's turning 24...

He was a finals MVP at 22..

Aaron Gordon will turn 20 this year...

Kid has a HUGE mountain to climb within 3 years if he wants to be Kawhi Leonard.

[mojosodope]

Stop using Frye abomination of a deal to prove Tobias was given low ball offer, when he wasn't. Tobias was offered more than Markief Morris deal (4/32M), which was more than fair. Frye was complete blunder by Henny and he was called out on that by me and few other people in Channing Frye thread when he was signed (actually I even bumped that thread few months ago just to prove how people were blindly defending Henny).

And yes, signing Frye to that much money contributed to Tobias refusing extension deal at 9M.

If what we offered harris was "fair", we wouldn't be arguing about matching what could be a max deal this off-season. We could have extended Harris for 12 a year, maybe even 11.5 but we choose to only offer 9. It wasn't a fair offer nor was it smart and now we are going to pay


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[eyriq]

If we suck ass like this next season Oladipo will get the same Harris critism from me because it is now year 3. Time to make your team better and take them to the playoffs. If you can't get that done then you're a fraud that's getting numbers on a bad team. People act like Vic is beyond reproach and it's just a witch hunt for one player named Harris. 5 years in the league and he hasn't played one game pass April 20th. Harris is s**t to me until he proves otherwise in meanigful games.

I know the difference between players who make a difference and ones who just suit up every night and play. Don't need nerd advanced stats for that one. I simply don't say jack about Vuc because he's nothing more than a piece on a team to me. He's no better than Kanter putting up offensive numbers while getting murdered on the defensive end. Give me Marc Gasol over him everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. But at least he took money equal to his limitations in his extension. If the Magic were dumb enough to max him out I would've criticized that too.

Harris would have taken fair money too 11-12 and the deal would have been done.

The GM offered him, a 21 year old doing 17&7 and playing hard and doing all the right things, got offered Channing Frye, Washed up Jameer money.

He was insanely low-balled. It was damn near disrespectful. You have Alec Burks out here getting 10 mill. Jodie Meeks getting 7. Vuc got offered an at least fair deal.

Anybody saying Tobias is equal value to Channing Frye or washed up Jameer is being flat out dishonest. Even if you have a personal hate for a guy you KNOW that was BS.

Now were going to get mad at him that he will get offered more then true value on the market? A soon to be double inflated market at that?

The Magic have nobody to blame for that other then your GM at the table. It was a clown show of a "negotiation".

Vic is up for a 21-22 a year extension next year. They are the same level player, same age. I hope everyone here is ready to deal with that. Get over it, the financial landscape has changed.

Disagree completely. Harris is poor defensively and his contributions on the court have the least positive impact of any of our young guns. We plugged in a PROVEN elite system player in Frye and the rotation completely went to **** because Harris's poor defense was exacerbated by Frye's poor defense. 8-9M a year for Harris is market value as he is limited in his on-court impact due to physical limitations and low skill level (poor passer, poor defense, average athleticism and physical tools). Frye is one of the ELITE stretch 4's and his market value as projected by ESPN was exactly where we signed him. The same source doesn't even list Harris in the top 30. Hennigan gave him a fair offer, there was nothing insulting about it.

[mojosodope]

Disagree completely. Harris is poor defensively and his contributions on the court have the least positive impact of any of our young guns. We plugged in a PROVEN elite system player in Frye and the rotation completely went to **** because Harris's poor defense was exacerbated by Frye's poor defense. 8-9M a year for Harris is market value as he is limited in his on-court impact due to physical limitations and low skill level (poor passer, poor defense, average athleticism and physical tools). Frye is one of the ELITE stretch 4's and his market value as projected by ESPN was exactly where we signed him. The same source doesn't even list Harris in the top 30. Hennigan gave him a fair offer, there was nothing insulting about it.

You can't be serious, there is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin.

If you think the top 30 list that excluded Harris should be taken as the word simply because it was on ESPN, I can do little to help you.

So Harris' poor defense was exacerbated by playing frye, but no one else's? Not Vuc who has proven to be unable to help and recover in any capacity? And by proven elite system do you mean the lottery picking Phoenix Suns who crumbled last year after everyone had a valid scouting report on them.

How does he have the least positive impact of all of our young guys? Explain this to me please, because o could swear when Vic is off he clearly has the least positive impact... And the ball in his hand.

Poor passer? How about good post player who we don't post up playing in a poor offensive system, on a team with poor perimeter shooters.




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[Neon1]

Saying Tobias defense is so poor over and over does not make it true. It's just the narrative.

If Tobias Harris really wasn't seen as a Top 30 free agent around the league the WHY would anybody be concerned that he looks like a lock to be getting a 13 to max deal this summer?

And his contributions have the least positive impact of all our young players? What???

"I care the least about anything positive done if the player doing it is Tobias Harris."

That would be a far more accurate statement.

[Optimus_Steel]

It's unfair to say Tobias or anyone on this team puts up empty stats. Let's see what happens when a legit coach comes in.

[mojosodope]

It's unfair to say Tobias or anyone on this team puts up empty stats. Let's see what happens when a legit coach comes in.

It's unfair, but that won't stop people from from using it to try to push their anti Tobias agenda


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[eyriq]

You can't be serious, there is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin.

If you think the top 30 list that excluded Harris should be taken as the word simply because it was on ESPN, I can do little to help you.

So Harris' poor defense was exacerbated by playing frye, but no one else's? Not Vuc who has proven to be unable to help and recover in any capacity? And by proven elite system do you mean the lottery picking Phoenix Suns who crumbled last year after everyone had a valid scouting report on them.

How does he have the least positive impact of all of our young guys? Explain this to me please, because o could swear when Vic is off he clearly has the least positive impact... And the ball in his hand.

Poor passer? How about good post player who we don't post up playing in a poor offensive system, on a team with poor perimeter shooters.




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Fair enough.

Pulling in ESPN regarding free agent market value is simply using an "authoritative" voice to guide the conversation.

Vucevic's defense was also exposed in the Harris/Frye/Vucevic front court, but I value Vucevic far more than Harris due to overall productivity and Vucevic's elite skills set in rebounding and shooting. Harris does not have that distinction in his favor and so his value is lower. Regarding Phoenix's system, Frye really measured well in offensive impact for them and this was exactly the boost our system needed but sacrificed because chemistry broke down. Lesson learned but this is a knock on Harris's value.

Regarding measuring impact again I reference NBA.COM. I'll use a different tact since the stats I've been sharing aren't moving the needle on this conversation. Our margin of victory for the season was -5.7, meaning we lost games by an average of 5.7 points. When Harris was in the game this jumps to 6 points, when he was on the bench this dips to 5.3 points. On the whole we competed better with Harris on the bench than otherwise.

For comparisons sake, with Oladipo and Vucevic we were -5.7 with them in or out. With Payton we were -3.9 with him in, -8.7 with him out. Fournier -4.2 in, -6.8 out, and Frye -6.3 in and -5.1 out.

Harris may produce 17/6 but his contributions clearly mean the LEAST for our teams performance. This factors into his value. Or at least it SHOULD (it does for Hennigan or ESPN anyway).

[mojosodope]

You can't be serious, there is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin.

If you think the top 30 list that excluded Harris should be taken as the word simply because it was on ESPN, I can do little to help you.

So Harris' poor defense was exacerbated by playing frye, but no one else's? Not Vuc who has proven to be unable to help and recover in any capacity? And by proven elite system do you mean the lottery picking Phoenix Suns who crumbled last year after everyone had a valid scouting report on them.

How does he have the least positive impact of all of our young guys? Explain this to me please, because o could swear when Vic is off he clearly has the least positive impact... And the ball in his hand.

Poor passer? How about good post player who we don't post up playing in a poor offensive system, on a team with poor perimeter shooters.




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Fair enough.

Pulling in ESPN regarding free agent market value is simply using an "authoritative" voice to guide the conversation.

Vucevic's defense was also exposed in the Harris/Frye/Vucevic front court, but I value Vucevic far more than Harris due to overall productivity and Vucevic's elite skills set in rebounding and shooting. Harris does not have that distinction in his favor and so his value is lower. Regarding Phoenix's system, Frye really measured well in offensive impact for them and this was exactly the boost our system needed but sacrificed because chemistry broke down. Lesson learned but this is a knock on Harris's value.

Regarding measuring impact again I reference NBA.COM. I'll use a different tact since the stats I've been sharing aren't moving the needle on this conversation. Our margin of victory for the season was -5.7, meaning we lost games by an average of 5.7 points. When Harris was in the game this jumps to 6 points, when he was on the bench this dips to 5.3 points. On the whole we competed better with Harris on the bench than otherwise.

For comparisons sake, with Oladipo and Vucevic we were -5.7 with them in or out. With Payton we were -3.9 with him in, -8.7 with him out. Fournier -4.2 in, -6.8 out, and Frye -6.3 in and -5.1 out.

Harris may produce 17/6 but his contributions clearly mean the LEAST for our teams performance. This factors into his value. Or at least it SHOULD (it does for Hennigan or ESPN anyway).

You don't understand, you are using a team that has NOT been trying to compete's negative performance against Harris.

There are too many factors involved to simply say the team performs better when Harris is not in the game. How much more does Harris play with Willie Greene than out other guys? How much more does Harris play without EP, with Frye?!

What I am saying is, out inconsistent lineups and losing ambitions make simple +/- irrelevant. And Please don't waste your time with "real plus minus" either because it is equally as flawed by measuring too many random variables.

And just because a list or article is published on ESPN.com does not make it authoritative, I'm almost sorry that is how you feel.



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[Neon1]

Eyriq you can't use a +/- stat for individual players. That tells you nothing about individuals, that stat is completely reliant on who you are on the court with, who was on the court before you, and who was on the court after you. It's a rotational stat.

For instance, If you are a coach, and you only made full 5 for 5 substitutions every group of 5 would have the exact same +/- as their 5 man group.

The only reason the +/- for each player changes is because they are coming in and out at different times so different things are going on.

If a coach leaves a certain starter on the court to balance out their weak bench, then that players +/- will be negatively impacted.

On our team for example at the end of 1st quarters, Tobias most times gets left in the game to help with scoring from our weak bench. As our weak bench is getting overpowered and losing ground Tobias or any other starter left out there with the scrubs takes a hit.

Take Tobias and another guy out, and leave Evan, add Oladipo and say Vooch now your making a push against the other teams bench (until the other starters return)

These are all examples, all the point is, is that +/- is absolutely not a stat to make INDIVIDUAL judgements based off of. If you single a guy out, you you an individual stat.

It's absolutely tge wrong stat to judge a single players defensive or offensive impact off of.

If Tobias is a starter and even of he is the 2nd best defender on your team, if you replace him with the top defender on your team Aaron Gordon, and also the backup center is a much better defender then the starting center (who Tobias would be playing most mins with), then the plus minus would say that the team is "much better with Tobias off the floor" but that is not telling you that the story at all. It's dependent on who is coming in behind, or who is on before.

If Channing is by far the worst defender, as soon as somebody replaces him, +/- says that the team is much better with that player on the court.

+/- is only relevant for full lineups. It is not a measure of individuals. It's a measure of lineups. Whoever started applying that stat to individuals was trying to do to much.

[Orlwillbeback]

how often do we have to rehash this bull?

[Orlwillbeback]

If we suck ass like this next season Oladipo will get the same Harris critism from me because it is now year 3. Time to make your team better and take them to the playoffs. If you can't get that done then you're a fraud that's getting numbers on a bad team. People act like Vic is beyond reproach and it's just a witch hunt for one player named Harris. 5 years in the league and he hasn't played one game pass April 20th. Harris is s**t to me until he proves otherwise in meanigful games.

I know the difference between players who make a difference and ones who just suit up every night and play. Don't need nerd advanced stats for that one. I simply don't say jack about Vuc because he's nothing more than a piece on a team to me. He's no better than Kanter putting up offensive numbers while getting murdered on the defensive end. Give me Marc Gasol over him everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. But at least he took money equal to his limitations in his extension. If the Magic were dumb enough to max him out I would've criticized that too.

Harris would have taken fair money too 11-12 and the deal would have been done.

The GM offered him, a 21 year old doing 17&7 and playing hard and doing all the right things, got offered Channing Frye, Washed up Jameer money.

He was insanely low-balled. It was damn near disrespectful. You have Alec Burks out here getting 10 mill. Jodie Meeks getting 7. Vuc got offered an at least fair deal.

Anybody saying Tobias is equal value to Channing Frye or washed up Jameer is being flat out dishonest. Even if you have a personal hate for a guy you KNOW that was BS.

Now were going to get mad at him that he will get offered more then true value on the market? A soon to be double inflated market at that?

The Magic have nobody to blame for that other then your GM at the table. It was a clown show of a "negotiation".

Vic is up for a 21-22 a year extension next year. They are the same level player, same age. I hope everyone here is ready to deal with that. Get over it, the financial landscape has changed.

Disagree completely. Harris is poor defensively and his contributions on the court have the least positive impact of any of our young guns. We plugged in a PROVEN elite system player in Frye and the rotation completely went to **** because Harris's poor defense was exacerbated by Frye's poor defense. 8-9M a year for Harris is market value as he is limited in his on-court impact due to physical limitations and low skill level (poor passer, poor defense, average athleticism and physical tools). Frye is one of the ELITE stretch 4's and his market value as projected by ESPN was exactly where we signed him. The same source doesn't even list Harris in the top 30. Hennigan gave him a fair offer, there was nothing insulting about it.

eyriq ALL our players are poor defensively. We finished bottom 5 in defense!

[OrlDave]

I feel like somewhere along the way this thread morphed into the Tobias thread.

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[eyriq]

Eyriq you can't use a +/- stat for individual players. That tells you nothing about individuals, that stat is completely reliant on who you are on the court with, who was on the court before you, and who was on the court after you. It's a rotational stat.

For instance, If you are a coach, and you only made full 5 for 5 substitutions every group of 5 would have the exact same +/- as their 5 man group.

The only reason the +/- for each player changes is because they are coming in and out at different times so different things are going on.

If a coach leaves a certain starter on the court to balance out their weak bench, then that players +/- will be negatively impacted.

On our team for example at the end of 1st quarters, Tobias most times gets left in the game to help with scoring from our weak bench. As our weak bench is getting overpowered and losing ground Tobias or any other starter left out there with the scrubs takes a hit.

Take Tobias and another guy out, and leave Evan, add Oladipo and say Vooch now your making a push against the other teams bench (until the other starters return)

These are all examples, all the point is, is that +/- is absolutely not a stat to make INDIVIDUAL judgements based off of. If you single a guy out, you you an individual stat.

It's absolutely tge wrong stat to judge a single players defensive or offensive impact off of.

If Tobias is a starter and even of he is the 2nd best defender on your team, if you replace him with the top defender on your team Aaron Gordon, and also the backup center is a much better defender then the starting center (who Tobias would be playing most mins with), then the plus minus would say that the team is "much better with Tobias off the floor" but that is not telling you that the story at all. It's dependent on who is coming in behind, or who is on before.

If Channing is by far the worst defender, as soon as somebody replaces him, +/- says that the team is much better with that player on the court.

+/- is only relevant for full lineups. It is not a measure of individuals. It's a measure of lineups. Whoever started applying that stat to individuals was trying to do to much.

This is coming down to your philosophy for evaluating player value at the individual level. It reminds me of the stereotypical old timer that has done something a certain way all his life and rejects the new technologies because they don't fit in this paradigm and he isn't comfortable expanding and incorporating new things. NBA analysis at the individual level using +/- is a thing and they are investing tons of money into it so it isn't going away.

It probably doesn't help that it backs up the narrative that Harris puts up the emptiest stats of any of our young guns and isn't as valuable to us as the $13-$15M price tag being floated out there suggests. +/- identifies fit/chemistry and informs the question "are we optimizing this players role?". In Harris's case +/- suggests that we aren't, that he is difficult to build around. This is why people consider him expendable and that Aaron is more the type of player we need at the 3.

[tiderulz]

Disagree completely. Harris is poor defensively and his contributions on the court have the least positive impact of any of our young guns. We plugged in a PROVEN elite system player in Frye and the rotation completely went to **** because Harris's poor defense was exacerbated by Frye's poor defense. 8-9M a year for Harris is market value as he is limited in his on-court impact due to physical limitations and low skill level (poor passer, poor defense, average athleticism and physical tools). Frye is one of the ELITE stretch 4's and his market value as projected by ESPN was exactly where we signed him. The same source doesn't even list Harris in the top 30. Hennigan gave him a fair offer, there was nothing insulting about it.

actually, if you take hater glasses off and look unbiasedly, when Harris performs well, the team usually wins. Now yes, it is Harris and usually Vic or Vuc, but his contributions on the court do have impact. I believe the stats actually show your opinion more with Dipo than with Harris. And Harris defense doesnt affect Frye's defense more than Vuc's defense. You dont usually expect the SF to cover for the PF, you expect the center to. Name me 1 team, outside of maybe SA, that uses a SF to cover for the lack of defense from a PF. So to lay that on Harris is unfounded.

And no, Hennigan didnt give him a fair offer. Now, i could easily see that he was hoping to get a sweetheart deal because Harris hadnt been able to finish a season healthy yet, but it wasnt a fair offer.

[tiderulz]

I feel like somewhere along the way this thread morphed into the Tobias thread.

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I agree.

I am hoping that Gordon lives in the gym working on his shot next year. And to be honest, we already have Frye to provide 3 pt shooting from a big, i hope someone on the team starts working on a low post offense. Lets start getting opposing teams in foul trouble.

[eyriq]

Disagree completely. Harris is poor defensively and his contributions on the court have the least positive impact of any of our young guns. We plugged in a PROVEN elite system player in Frye and the rotation completely went to **** because Harris's poor defense was exacerbated by Frye's poor defense. 8-9M a year for Harris is market value as he is limited in his on-court impact due to physical limitations and low skill level (poor passer, poor defense, average athleticism and physical tools). Frye is one of the ELITE stretch 4's and his market value as projected by ESPN was exactly where we signed him. The same source doesn't even list Harris in the top 30. Hennigan gave him a fair offer, there was nothing insulting about it.

actually, if you take hater glasses off and look unbiasedly, when Harris performs well, the team usually wins. Now yes, it is Harris and usually Vic or Vuc, but his contributions on the court do have impact. I believe the stats actually show your opinion more with Dipo than with Harris. And Harris defense doesnt affect Frye's defense more than Vuc's defense. You dont usually expect the SF to cover for the PF, you expect the center to. Name me 1 team, outside of maybe SA, that uses a SF to cover for the lack of defense from a PF. So to lay that on Harris is unfounded.

And no, Hennigan didnt give him a fair offer. Now, i could easily see that he was hoping to get a sweetheart deal because Harris hadnt been able to finish a season healthy yet, but it wasnt a fair offer.

I don't think I'm a hater, but it is all relative to our viewing angle I guess.

Anyway, facts are facts. We are better with Harris on the bench vs on the court and yet he is 2nd in PER, 3rd in scoring. You do not see this incongruence on teams that are well coached or with players that are supposedly worth $13-15M.

He rebounds, yet 73.4% of his rebounds are uncontested, compared to Aaron's 62.7%.

He passes the ball an average of 35.8 times a game, yet generates only 4.1 points off the pass, compared to Vucevic's 34.1 passes and 5 points generated.

Opponents score 54% at the rim against him, compared to Aaron's 48.1%.

And SF is critical for defense as that position is key to preventing penetrations. Given our weakness at protecting the rim we need a SF that can play good help defense, which Harris cannot. He can't protect the rim at the 4, doesn't play good help D at the 3.

He is what he is, a good but not great player that we should try to keep but that isn't worth more than what Hennigan already offered him.