Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon

[ezzzp]

Also, nobody said anything about tanking. Those are your words.

Your words: "Picking 16-19 for the next 2-4 years isn’t a viable avenue to find that player."

So what does that mean then, that you think the Magic should win more games for worse odds to get that franchise player? Its pretty clear what your implication is.

In fact later in this very comment you say this: "I believe a one step back two steps forward approach is better." Step back to what?

I don’t believe we would be “tanking” without Vuc.

Vucevic is the reason the Magic won 42 games and were in the playoffs. Jeff Weltman and Clifford stated those exact words. Without Vucevic this roster is a high lottery team.

If Vucevic isn't resigned, Ross is gone - he said so himself that he was going to wait to see what happens with Vucevic. Ross knows this turns into a rebuild without Vucevic. Its not rocket science. No quality players sign up for that.

There is a counter argument to every example and so on and so forth. That much is apparent. It’s also apparent that you either believe 100% everything I’m saying as the complete opposite or that you are arguing for arguments sake. Either way, people can have different opinions. You can either accept that or not.

Of course there is a counter argument, is that not what debate is. If you don't want anyone to counter your responses then why are you on a discussion board - after all it was you that responded to my comment initially. I have as much right to voice my opinion and defend my point of view as much as you do. You can either accept that or not.

You obviously believe this iteration of the roster has more talent than I do. PS- that’s not being bias, that’s making an assessment as a fan. Which happens to be what both of us are on this forum - fans making assumptions. I believe a one step back two steps forward approach is better. You don’t. Simple as that.

If that's what you think then you obviously either haven't read anything I've written or just failed to comprehend it.

I have stated over and over that without Vucevic this team is a lottery team. I have stated over and over that this is a roster in transition and that the development and accumulation of various types of assets are key for the eventual upgrade and transformation of this roster over time.

Gradual and steady roster improvement and team development...I can't make it any clearer than that.

[VFX]

Also, nobody said anything about tanking. Those are your words. I don’t believe we would be “tanking” without Vuc.

Your words: "Picking 16-19 for the next 2-4 years isn’t a viable avenue to find that player."

So what does that mean then, that you think the Magic should win more games for worse odds to get that franchise player? Its pretty clear what your implication is.

Vucevic is the reason the Magic won 42 games and were in the playoffs. Jeff Weltman and Clifford stated those exact words. They know that without Vucevic this roster is a high lottery team. If he isn't resigned, Ross is definitely not returning and the Magic regress back to the lottery (aka tanking).

There is a counter argument to every example and so on and so forth. That much is apparent. It’s also apparent that you either believe 100% everything I’m saying as the complete opposite or that you are arguing for arguments sake. Either way, people can have different opinions. You can either accept that or not.

Of course there is a counter argument, isn't that not what debate is. If you don't want anyone to question your comments then why are you on a discussion board. I have as much right to voice my opinion and point of view as you. You can either accept that or not.

You obviously believe this iteration of the roster has more talent than I do. PS- that’s not being bias, that’s making an assessment as a fan. Which happens to be what both of us are on this forum - fans making assumptions. I believe a one step back two steps forward approach is better. You don’t. Simple as that.

If that's what you think then you obviously either haven't read what I've stated or failed to comprehend it.

I have stated over and over that without Vucevic this team is a lottery team. I have stated over and over that this is a roster in transition and that the accumulation of various types of assets are key tools that will facilitate the upgrade and transformation of this roster over time.

Gradual and steady roster improvement and team development...I can't make it any clearer than that.

You’re taking that road then? Ok.

I stated that Vuc gets us to the playoffs in a weak east. He did. I also stated that picking between those positions is unlikely to equal a star player. There is a grey area in that assertion that doesn’t equal “tanking”. You don’t know what tanking is if you think fielding a roster minus Vucevic equals losing on purpose (aka tanking).

Oh no I comprehend just perfectly fine. You don’t seem to understand. I don’t care what your opinion is, at this point, no matter how much you choose to respond to varying degree. I’ve stated mine and you can choose to accept that you won’t change it, or die mad trying to via a message board. I’m not saying these things because I’m looking for someone to refute what I believe. I can accept you believe what you do, guess I’m the bigger person.

You believe the road is only steady team development over the course of multiple years. Heard you loud and clear throughout this ongoing back and forth over multiple days. I disagree because I don’t think time solves all and overwhelming talent runs the nba.

I won’t be responding further. There is nothing left to say in this exchange.

[pepe1991]

Ross is not comming back without Vučević...
I assume he can get similar contract for one he will be offered by Magic, just in better situation.

Also without Vučević this is rebuilding team, inking longer contract on 28 years old backup shooting guard makes no sense, especially he will ask more than he currently makes ( $10,5M a year ).

[ezzzp]

You’re taking that road then?

I stated that Vuc gets us to the playoffs in a weak east. He did. I also stated that picking between those positions is unlikely to equal a star player. There is a grey area in that assertion that doesn’t equal “tanking”. You don’t know what tanking is if you think fielding a roster minus Vucevic equals losing on purpose (aka tanking).

Oh no I comprehend just perfectly fine. You don’t seem to understand. I don’t care what your opinion is, at this point, no matter how much you choose to respond to varying degree. I’ve stated mine and you can choose to accept that you won’t change it, or die mad trying to via a message board. I’m not saying these things because I’m looking for someone to refute what I believe. I can accept you believe what you do, guess I’m the bigger person.

You believe the road is only steady team development over the course of multiple years. Heard you loud and clear throughout this ongoing back and forth. I disagree because I don’t think time solves all.

You're taking that road then?

...and now you are going to play the "its not tanking, its just losing a lot because they aren't very good" game...lmao ok.

Of course you don't care what my opinion is, that is clear, you just want to hear yourself talking and not have anyone challenge your bias.

The construction of a contender level rosters take time...as in multiple years type of time...do you seriously believe that championship contenders don't take time to be constructed? Yea, I 100% absolutely disagree with you.

[VFX]

You’re taking that road then?

I stated that Vuc gets us to the playoffs in a weak east. He did. I also stated that picking between those positions is unlikely to equal a star player. There is a grey area in that assertion that doesn’t equal “tanking”. You don’t know what tanking is if you think fielding a roster minus Vucevic equals losing on purpose (aka tanking).

Oh no I comprehend just perfectly fine. You don’t seem to understand. I don’t care what your opinion is, at this point, no matter how much you choose to respond to varying degree. I’ve stated mine and you can choose to accept that you won’t change it, or die mad trying to via a message board. I’m not saying these things because I’m looking for someone to refute what I believe. I can accept you believe what you do, guess I’m the bigger person.

You believe the road is only steady team development over the course of multiple years. Heard you loud and clear throughout this ongoing back and forth. I disagree because I don’t think time solves all.

You're taking that road then?

...and now you are going to play the "its not tanking, its just losing a lot because they aren't very good" game...lmao ok.

Of course you don't care what my opinion is, that is clear, you just want to hear yourself talking and not have anyone challenge your bias.

The construction of a contender level rosters take time...as in multiple years type of time...do you seriously believe that championship contenders don't take time to be constructed? Yea, I 100% absolutely disagree with you.

Not every team, that decided to not resign a player in the history of the nba, is to be considered tanking because they decided to go a different direction.

Nope. I can accept your opinion (which I did) multiple pages ago. You can believe whatever you want. You could think this roster could win a championship next year and I’d say “sure you can think that.”

After pages and pages NOW I don’t care what your opinion is. Like a toddler you are simply parsing every paragraph and trying to refute things simply to do so. Look no further than you mocking my last opening with yours. I don’t agree with everyone here and I don’t expect everyone to agree with me.

No. The original point is I don’t think Vuc is essential to continue building further if only because I want to see what WeHam can do outside of relying on him for multiple contract years. Orlando wouldn’t be the first team to decide taking a different route in rebuilding should he and Ross not be resigned. You don’t think there might be a shadow of a doubt at the potential left in this roster construction as it’s focused on Vucevic without perimeter scoring?

Talent wins in the nba and there is no refuting that. Look no further than these playoffs currently with superstars surrounded by other stars and elite role players. I don’t think Orlando is in a good position to land elite star talent should he be resigned. You won’t change my mind on that. Point blank.

Now if you want to take this to DM we can. I’m sure the rest of the board would rather us not debate for another 12 pages of overlong replies and multiple paragraphs. However, I sincerely doubt you are continuing this conversation because you are actually trying to change my mind (which you never will) or care what I have to say in regards to this subject further.

[pepe1991]

nah, go ahead and keep posting here, i don't mind
It's entertaining to read debate without being part of one

[pepe1991]

So today's takeaway from US basketball media is that Kriss Middleton can't be your second option on championship team because he simply isn't good enough.
And Colin Cowherd used kind a fair analogy:
Showtime Lakers second option. Magic
Bird's Celtics second best player-McHale
Lakers 00s team - second option- Kobe
Lakers 10s 2 rings- Pau Gasol
Spurs 5 rings - First Tony to Duncan, than Duncan to Tony, than both to Kawhi for 1 ride, Ginobili as x factor in 4 rings
Heat's first ring second option- Shaq
Heat's second and third ring- second option Wade
Warriors second option in 1 ring - Klay
In other 2 - Curry
Bulls 6 rings- Pippen


There are some teams who did it without clear second star but most teams won rings with 2 HoF talents. Even 2011 Dallas ,without "clear" second option had team with HOF Kidd, probable HoF Marion, Jason Terry ( 6th man of a year in 2009) and Chandler ( DPOY in 2012 )...

It goes to show you how much you need stars to win, not just star but stars.

[ezzzp]

Not every team, that decided to not resign a player in the history of the nba, is to be considered tanking because they decided to go a different direction.

A team that loses its best player that was foundational to its system will regress dramatically. A team that loses its second best player because it lost its best player will plummet even deeper in that hole.

When that happens to a small market team; one that has already been in rebuild for more than half a decade, there is little to no chance of supplanting that production in free agency. If you want to use semantics to mask reality, well I guess thats your option. Personally, I choose to not be in denial about the reality of what it means for Orlando to lose its top two players.

Nope. I can accept your opinion (which I did) multiple pages ago. You can believe whatever you want. You could think this roster could win a championship next year and I’d say “sure you can think that.”

I've stated over and over that this is a roster in transition and promoted gradual and steady roster development. NOWHERE do I say that this is a championship roster anytime soon, stop making up lies like a 12 year old that is trying to dig his way out of a hole.

After pages and pages NOW I don’t care what your opinion is. Like a toddler you are simply parsing every paragraph and trying to refute things simply to do so. Look no further than you mocking my last opening with yours. I don’t agree with everyone here and I don’t expect everyone to agree with me.

So I guess when you said: "I won’t be responding further. There is nothing left to say in this exchange." by that you meant that you'll just type out another 6 paragraphs of personal attacks, contradictions and bias confirmation...lmao.

No. The original point is I don’t think Vuc is essential to continue building further if only because I want to see what WeHam can do outside of relying on him for multiple contract years. Orlando wouldn’t be the first team to decide taking a different route in rebuilding should he and Ross not be resigned. You don’t think there might be a shadow of a doubt at the potential left in this roster construction as it’s focused on Vucevic without perimeter scoring?

...and my original point is that if the Magic lose Vucevic, they lose Ross and the team will go into rebuild for 2-3 years because they lose their ability to supplant their production as it eliminates their ability to use whatever capspace that creates.

Talent wins in the nba and there is no refuting that. Look no further than these playoffs currently with superstars surrounded by other stars and elite role players. I don’t think Orlando is in a good position to land elite star talent should he be resigned. You won’t change my mind on that. Point blank.

What you are refusing to even try to comprehend is that Orlando will be in an even worse position to land or develop elite talent if Vucevic isn't resigned.

1. The loss of their top two players sends the team into a rebuild which instantly renders any cap space basically unusable. NO elite talent joins a rebuild, much less a small market one that has already been in rebuild for more than half a decade.

2. The loss of those two assets means that the Magic lost both assets for zero return. That means ZERO production replacement.

3. The loss of those two best players destroys the player developmental context for the young core. It immediately does damage to the core's potential upside. It creates a dynamic were numerous young players are at odds trying to make it their team and competing for who gets the biggest cut of the pie. If that sounds familiar, its because those are the words that Oladipo used to describe the player development problem when he was in Orlando. Tobias Harris and Moe Harkless have made similar remarks. There wasn't a player to anchor around while the core were in the early stages of development. That isn't a unique situation, its what happens to young core's in losing contexts.

Now if you want to take this to DM we can. I’m sure the rest of the board would rather us not debate for another 12 pages of overlong replies and multiple paragraphs. However, I sincerely doubt you are continuing this conversation because you are actually trying to change my mind (which you never will) or care what I have to say in regards to this subject further.

Feel free to DM. I know you won't because anyone who begins dialogue with precondition that his mind can never be changed is someone who refuses to learn and adapt.

[MagicFan4Lyfe]

You’re taking that road then?

I stated that Vuc gets us to the playoffs in a weak east. He did. I also stated that picking between those positions is unlikely to equal a star player. There is a grey area in that assertion that doesn’t equal “tanking”. You don’t know what tanking is if you think fielding a roster minus Vucevic equals losing on purpose (aka tanking).

Oh no I comprehend just perfectly fine. You don’t seem to understand. I don’t care what your opinion is, at this point, no matter how much you choose to respond to varying degree. I’ve stated mine and you can choose to accept that you won’t change it, or die mad trying to via a message board. I’m not saying these things because I’m looking for someone to refute what I believe. I can accept you believe what you do, guess I’m the bigger person.

You believe the road is only steady team development over the course of multiple years. Heard you loud and clear throughout this ongoing back and forth. I disagree because I don’t think time solves all.

You're taking that road then?

...and now you are going to play the "its not tanking, its just losing a lot because they aren't very good" game...lmao ok.

Of course you don't care what my opinion is, that is clear, you just want to hear yourself talking and not have anyone challenge your bias.

The construction of a contender level rosters take time...as in multiple years type of time...do you seriously believe that championship contenders don't take time to be constructed? Yea, I 100% absolutely disagree with you.

A team built around Vuc as the focal point caps out as a low seeded playoff team. If we are content with the 6-8 seed for the life of Vuc's next contract, then we sign him. I am not saying Vuc is a terrible player. He is a #3 or #4 option on a strong playoff team not a #1. If we sign him long term with a salary that eats up our salary cap space then how do we improve?

I say we sign some veterans to 1-2 years on the cheap to support our younger players and build around AG/Isaac and cross our fingers Bamba and Fultz recover 100% from their injuries. We have our young core together and then we can add pieces via free agency in 2020 when we have more cap space.

[MagicFan4Lyfe]

If the Magic resign Vuc and TRoss to long contracts this off season but miss out on the playoffs next season and thats possible considering .... what would be our next move?
You know Riley will be adding pieces to the Heat and they will be in the playoff hunt. The Knicks if they sign Durant or any top FA are going to be a playoff team. We have very little room for error here.

[yoyojw17]

So today's takeaway from US basketball media is that Kriss Middleton can't be your second option on championship team because he simply isn't good enough.
And Colin Cowherd used kind a fair analogy:
Showtime Lakers second option. Magic
Bird's Celtics second best player-McHale
Lakers 00s team - second option- Kobe
Lakers 10s 2 rings- Pau Gasol
Spurs 5 rings - First Tony to Duncan, than Duncan to Tony, than both to Kawhi for 1 ride, Ginobili as x factor in 4 rings
Heat's first ring second option- Shaq
Heat's second and third ring- second option Wade
Warriors second option in 1 ring - Klay
In other 2 - Curry
Bulls 6 rings- Pippen


There are some teams who did it without clear second star but most teams won rings with 2 HoF talents. Even 2011 Dallas ,without "clear" second option had team with HOF Kidd, probable HoF Marion, Jason Terry ( 6th man of a year in 2009) and Chandler ( DPOY in 2012 )...

It goes to show you how much you need stars to win, not just star but stars.

Come on fultz!

[ezzzp]

A team built around Vuc as the focal point caps out as a low seeded playoff team. If we are content with the 6-8 seed for the life of Vuc's next contract, then we sign him. I am not saying Vuc is a terrible player. He is a #3 or #4 option on a strong playoff team not a #1. If we sign him long term with a salary that eats up our salary cap space then how do we improve?

I say we sign some veterans to 1-2 years on the cheap to support our younger players and build around AG/Isaac and cross our fingers Bamba and Fultz recover 100% from their injuries. We have our young core together and then we can add pieces via free agency in 2020 when we have more cap space.

The Magic wouldn't be building around Vucevic.

They would be retaining the asset to maintain a competitive baseline. System continuity will be beneficial - especially to Gordon who has had to learn brand new systems in 4 of his 5 seasons. As Isaac, Bamba, Fultz, and Gordon continue to develop they will raise that baseline.

Retaining Vucevic maintains the best developmental context for their young core to grow in. Aside from helping the team stay in competitive meaningful game context, Vucevic functions as a veteran stabilizer. His 3pt shooting mitigates the young core's shooting issues. It creates wider driving and passing lanes for them to operate in; improving the court context for their development in those areas.

Signing mercenary veterans who aren't invested in Orlando does not work. Those types of signings are there just to get the highest paycheck they can get. Names like Channing Frye, Willie Green, CJ Watson and Jeff Green should ring a bell as to the tier of mercenary vet a small market team in rebuild has access to (and has to overpay to lure in).

If the young core meets expectations, the Magic will not be able to add any meaningful pieces via free agency in 2020.

Fultz and Isaac become restricted free agents in 2021. That means that if those two are what people hope they are, the Magic are going to need to preserve every single penny of their cap space to be able to resign them. Otherwise the Magic will be facing luxury tax penalties. Then the following summer Aaron Gordon becomes an unrestricted free agent. That's 3 players that if they come even remotely close to what Magic fans believe will each account for 20% to 30% of the team's salary cap. That's not even counting Bamba who hits free agency the year after Gordon.

Its not about how much Vucevic gets paid, its how the contract is structured. Front loading it, similar to Aaron Gordon's, mitigates both issues.

[pepe1991]

Season 8 episode 3 of GOT is one of biggest letdowns in my life

Man, this sucked

[Popsicle1228]

Also, nobody said anything about tanking. Those are your words. I don’t believe we would be “tanking” without Vuc.

Your words: "Picking 16-19 for the next 2-4 years isn’t a viable avenue to find that player."

So what does that mean then, that you think the Magic should win more games for worse odds to get that franchise player? Its pretty clear what your implication is.

Vucevic is the reason the Magic won 42 games and were in the playoffs. Jeff Weltman and Clifford stated those exact words. They know that without Vucevic this roster is a high lottery team. If he isn't resigned, Ross is definitely not returning and the Magic regress back to the lottery (aka tanking).

There is a counter argument to every example and so on and so forth. That much is apparent. It’s also apparent that you either believe 100% everything I’m saying as the complete opposite or that you are arguing for arguments sake. Either way, people can have different opinions. You can either accept that or not.

Of course there is a counter argument, isn't that not what debate is. If you don't want anyone to question your comments then why are you on a discussion board. I have as much right to voice my opinion and point of view as you. You can either accept that or not.

You obviously believe this iteration of the roster has more talent than I do. PS- that’s not being bias, that’s making an assessment as a fan. Which happens to be what both of us are on this forum - fans making assumptions. I believe a one step back two steps forward approach is better. You don’t. Simple as that.

If that's what you think then you obviously either haven't read what I've stated or failed to comprehend it.

I have stated over and over that without Vucevic this team is a lottery team. I have stated over and over that this is a roster in transition and that the accumulation of various types of assets are key tools that will facilitate the upgrade and transformation of this roster over time.

Gradual and steady roster improvement and team development...I can't make it any clearer than that.

You’re taking that road then? Ok.

I stated that Vuc gets us to the playoffs in a weak east. He did. I also stated that picking between those positions is unlikely to equal a star player. There is a grey area in that assertion that doesn’t equal “tanking”. You don’t know what tanking is if you think fielding a roster minus Vucevic equals losing on purpose (aka tanking).

Oh no I comprehend just perfectly fine. You don’t seem to understand. I don’t care what your opinion is, at this point, no matter how much you choose to respond to varying degree. I’ve stated mine and you can choose to accept that you won’t change it, or die mad trying to via a message board. I’m not saying these things because I’m looking for someone to refute what I believe. I can accept you believe what you do, guess I’m the bigger person.

You believe the road is only steady team development over the course of multiple years. Heard you loud and clear throughout this ongoing back and forth over multiple days. I disagree because I don’t think time solves all and overwhelming talent runs the nba.

I won’t be responding further. There is nothing left to say in this exchange.

I have not asserted my beliefs on anyone and have stayed out of it. That makes me the biggest person.

[OrlandO]

Season 8 episode 3 of GOT is one of biggest letdowns in my life

Man, this sucked

I thought it was great. This was my favorite scene...

Spoiler:

why the F was it so dark?! Couldn't see anything.

[VFX]

Season 8 episode 3 of GOT is one of biggest letdowns in my life

Man, this sucked

I thought it was great. This was my favorite scene...

Spoiler:

why the F was it so dark?! Couldn't see anything.

[pepe1991]

Season 8 episode 3 of GOT is one of biggest letdowns in my life

Man, this sucked

I thought it was great. This was my favorite scene...

Spoiler:

why the F was it so dark?! Couldn't see anything.

7 years od Night King build up to find out who he is, what are his motivations, why he turned against CoF., his connection with Bran to find out.... we will never find out

And Azor Ahai thing ended up being as important as Nick Young for Warriors championship run

As for darkness, i don't know ,it's easier to make it dark to save budget because CGI isn't polished i guess ?

it's not as important but who da hell puts arthillery in front of army and charges calvary first? It's like they wanted to die

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Kanter is really becoming my option 1 for FA C if we go that route. Dude has been playing with passion since the Knicks traded him. Sadly I wouldn't be shocked if someone gives him a solid deal

[j_n]

Season 8 episode 3 of GOT is one of biggest letdowns in my life

Man, this sucked

Should have lowered your expectations I guess, since the 6th season it feels like the story has been dumbed down to appease the casual fans, I could think of at least 5 better ways to end the nk storyline than what they came up with.

[pepe1991]

Season 8 episode 3 of GOT is one of biggest letdowns in my life

Man, this sucked

Should have lowered your expectations I guess, since the 6th season it feels like the story has been dumbed down to appease the casual fans, I could think of at least 5 better ways to end the nk storyline than what they came up with.

plot armour on everybody, making years of speculations and hype about show complete waste of time.
To me this feels like Dexer, tv show that was great, had declining quality at the end just to s**t itself in last episodes.