How bout that AB!

[Bergmaniac]

You got to be trolling at this point, last year's Fultz was horrendous on both ends all season. There is a reason he hasn't been signed by any team this season.

nobody's more critical of Fultz than me...I just said he's got much better handles than AB. Which he does - to Fultz' credit, his ability to dribble and protect the ball in traffic was exceptional - just couldn't do anything else.

My post wasn't responding to yours, it was in response to the claim of TheStallion70 that we are less talented team this year without Fultz and that Fultz "still found ways to be effective". I should have quoted the post, I guess.

[eyriq]

AB is not very good at basketball.

I thought that maybe he was a rotational player for a playoff team but not unless his usage is very low and he focuses on defense like last year.

The Magic are a less talented team than last year with no Mo or Fultz. Fultz still found ways to be effective despite his lack of shooting range and if you cant see that you're **** blind.

Your evaluation of Fultz just shows that we have diametrically opposed frameworks for evaluating basketball talent. All good, but Fultz is out of the league while AB took his job.

[JF5]

nobody's more critical of Fultz than me...I just said he's got much better handles than AB. Which he does - to Fultz' credit, his ability to dribble and protect the ball in traffic was exceptional - just couldn't do anything else.

Fultz has better ball handling/driving ability and offensive instincts. Black doesn't have anything that you can hang your hat on offensively...

The last few games with him starting just made it painfully obvious that he's a bench player that can play 15-20 minutes per game with this particular roster. He should be the secondary ball handler max with the second unit, and the bench unit needs 2 offensive oriented guards to cover up for his horrible offense.

Sadly, Eyriq was championing the fact that he was the second leading scorer, on a night where the team got blown out at home against a bottom 5 team in the league and where the Magic didn't even score 80 points against them. Like that's extremely out of touch.

This season has been all about unlocking playmaking and aggressiveness. Last game was a nice indication that he's progressing.

He didnt even look that good last night via eye test. You can potentially attribute it with the lack of continuity and chemistry with teammates being out all season but my goodness he just doesn't have it offensively.

And it's been an ongoing theme for most of the games this season. He'll drive to the lane try to pass it out or miscalculate the pass and turn it over. He'll drive to the lane and just get stuck/lost because he doesn't know where to go or how to navigate/angle/manipulate the defense when he gets into the lane.

Then the lack of confidence in shooting. There were at least 2-3 wide open shots from 3 where he had an open shot late in the shot clock and he just passed it out for a worse shot.

Bad thing about it is we're midway in the season and it seems like he's getting worse offensively (as he looked much better in the first month of the season). Like I don't see the tangible improvements in competitive situations for him.

Like I understand you're lost in the sauce and you think he's the next SGA. But the numbers and eye test say something else. He needs to be put back in the role he had last season.

[eyriq]

Fultz has better ball handling/driving ability and offensive instincts. Black doesn't have anything that you can hang your hat on offensively...

The last few games with him starting just made it painfully obvious that he's a bench player that can play 15-20 minutes per game with this particular roster. He should be the secondary ball handler max with the second unit, and the bench unit needs 2 offensive oriented guards to cover up for his horrible offense.

Sadly, Eyriq was championing the fact that he was the second leading scorer, on a night where the team got blown out at home against a bottom 5 team in the league and where the Magic didn't even score 80 points against them. Like that's extremely out of touch.

This season has been all about unlocking playmaking and aggressiveness. Last game was a nice indication that he's progressing.

He didnt even look that good last night via eye test. You can potentially attribute it with the lack of continuity and chemistry with teammates being out all season but my goodness he just doesn't have it offensively.

And it's been an ongoing theme for most of the games this season. He'll drive to the lane try to pass it out or miscalculate the pass and turn it over. He'll drive to the lane and just get stuck/lost because he doesn't know where to go or how to navigate/angle/manipulate the defense when he gets into the lane.

Then the lack of confidence in shooting. There were at least 2-3 wide open shots from 3 where he had an open shot late in the shot clock and he just passed it out for a worse shot.

Bad thing about it is we're midway in the season and it seems like he's getting worse offensively (as he looked much better in the first month of the season). Like I don't see the tangible improvements in competitive situations for him.

Like I understand you're lost in the sauce and you think he's the next SGA. But the numbers and eye test say something else. He needs to be put back in the role he had last season.

He had 5 assists and 1 turnover with a 42.3% assist rate last game. So your eye test doesn't account for what is objectively a great playmaking night. The gap between objective reality and your evaluation makes it hard to understand how you are processing what you see. Getting worse offensively while scoring +10 PPG and increasing his drives into the lane and maintaining an elite free throw rate since returning from a back injury? That's another take that seems disconnected from objective truth.

I've said that SGA is a high end outcome for his archetype and productivity profile. SGA comps well in college too. It's just what it is. I don't even think he'll be better than Suggs, let alone as good as SGA, but along that spectrum within that archetype there are a ton of positive outcomes.

[JF5]

He had 5 assists and 1 turnover with a 42.3% assist rate last game. So your eye test doesn't account for what is objectively a great playmaking night.

So when I say eyetest... You immediately pull up stats. How do you reconcile that with my previous point of an eyetest?

Especially in a game where the Magic scored only 79 points and managed to shoot 34 percent from the floor and 24 percent from 3. Clearly what he did offensively had no impact statistically speaking.

The argument that you're trying to have is essentially "check his stats" and if you want to look deeper he's one of the worst rated offensive players in the league whilst being on the worst offense on the league. So that's a double whammy on him indicating he doesn't have any sort of tangible impact on offense and actually makes this team worse on that side of the ball. Statistically speaking...

I've said that SGA is a high end outcome for his archetype and productivity profile. SGA comps well in college too. It's just what it is. I don't even think he'll be better than Suggs, let alone as good as SGA, but along that spectrum within that archetype there are a ton of positive outcomes.

We've had had this conversation... His draft profile did not highlight a single offensive skillset that he was good at in the College level and now we're seeing that reflect here in the pros. When you look at the scouting reports specifically between SGA and Black the only thing they had alike was their physical profile/measurements and it stops there.

I've only heard SGA from you. Most everyone else had Lonzo Ball, or Bruce Brown (which I've said since we drafted him) as his peak which is a good role player. He never had the offensive bag or offensive inclination/instinct to be better than that.

I like him as a player and I think he has a future here given his intangibles and what the front office likes in their players. I just think we've seen enough from him offensively where you have to reduce his role. It just hasn't gotten better by any stretch of the imagination as being a lead guard to build the second unit around.

[eyriq]

So when I say eyetest... You immediately pull up stats. How do you reconcile that with my previous point of an eyetest?

Bias often explains the disconnect between the eye test and evidence.

We've had had this conversation... His draft profile did not highlight a single offensive skillset that he was good at in the College level and now we're seeing that reflect here in the pros.

His ability to draw fouls and make plays are the two offensive skills that drives the comp. The rest of the comp is driven by defensive metrics. They were similar in other offensive areas as well, but FTr and assists tell most of the story.


Edit: Bruce Brown is another comp that shows up based on his college stats, good call there. And Kemba Walker lol

[Bensational]

Also on the topic of AB alone, if he doesn't take a pretty big step forward next year I will start being concerned.

I think he’s continuing to develop throughout this season, which is good to see, but the development is some pretty rough viewing at the moment and he still has so much more development to go through to reach the level of player I’d like him to be. But compared to where he was last season, he at least has the confidence (and permission?) to try a lot more this season.

- keep a live dribble
- set up the offense
- complete layups
- develop a small offensive bag (hesi, up and under, middy, 3pt shot)

The above seems to be what he’s trying to develop this season, but by next season I’d like to see him looking solid to good in these areas instead of still learning.

[Skybox]

Also on the topic of AB alone, if he doesn't take a pretty big step forward next year I will start being concerned.

I think he’s continuing to develop throughout this season, which is good to see, but the development is some pretty rough viewing at the moment and he still has so much more development to go through to reach the level of player I’d like him to be. But compared to where he was last season, he at least has the confidence (and permission?) to try a lot more this season.

- keep a live dribble
- set up the offense
- complete layups
- develop a small offensive bag (hesi, up and under, middy, 3pt shot)

The above seems to be what he’s trying to develop this season, but by next season I’d like to see him looking solid to good in these areas instead of still learning.

Same itinerary I had for my 11 year olds at the YMCA.

Tell him to keep his hands up on defense too

[GelbeWand09]

My biggest problem of not getting a PG because we wanna develop AB is even in his best realistic outcome, he doesn't is the PG we need next to our forwards. What's his best outcome? Lower 3point volume and worse 3point% Lonzo? That's not a fit at all. AB for me is just a bonus, if he turns out as a star or very good roleplayer great, but that probably won't solve our backcourt problems/needs. We need a dynamic, speedy guard who can drive in a half court setting and collapse/manipulate the defense when Paolo and Franz have problems driving because they are 6'10. The least we need is a slow/unatletic PG who has the same problems beating his man without a open lane. We need a PG who opens lanes with his spacing and with him being a constant driving menace for the defense. That's how you help our 2 stars and not with a PG who makes their lives harder.
AB is the perfect 3rd guard in a rotation, who can backup both spots and can play with any kind of PG because of his defense and height. But he probably will never be anywhere near the ideal starting PG of this team.

[basketballRob]

My biggest problem of not getting a PG because we wanna develop AB is even in his best realistic outcome, he doesn't is the PG we need next to our forwards. What's his best outcome? Lower 3point volume and worse 3point% Lonzo? That's not a fit at all. AB for me is just a bonus, if he turns out as a star or very good roleplayer great, but that probably won't solve our backcourt problems/needs. We need a dynamic, speedy guard who can drive in a half court setting and collapse/manipulate the defense when Paolo and Franz have problems driving because they are 6'10. The least we need is a slow/unatletic PG who has the same problems beating his man without a open lane. We need a PG who opens lanes with his spacing and with him being a constant driving menace for the defense. That's how you help our 2 stars and not with a PG who makes their lives harder.
AB is the perfect 3rd guard in a rotation, who can backup both spots and can play with any kind of PG because of his defense and height. But he probably will never be anywhere near the ideal starting PG of this team.

Paolo and Franz need a low usage PG next to them.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[MasterGMer]

How bout tat AB tonight? 5 steals, 2 threes and 14 points. Even though we lost, but hey, AB played a good game. Keep growing, young man!

[JoshuaPotter]

How bout tat AB tonight? 5 steals, 2 threes and 14 points. Even though we lost, but hey, AB played a good game. Keep growing, young man!

Since Paolo and Franz came back he is shooting 66% from 3. The gravity is real.

[KillMonger]

he was really good vs the heat....good offensive showing.....on defense he was as good as you can get, not just for a second year player either....you can see the flashes offensively tonight, if that can catch up with his defense....you have to see the vision

[Skybox]

he was really good vs the heat....good offensive showing.....on defense he was as good as you can get, not just for a second year player either....you can see the flashes offensively tonight, if that can catch up with his defense....you have to see the vision

I'm not drinking the SGA Kool-Aid or even the "sure thing" PG skills version...but I do think he can be a better version of KCP (at least), if he'd just pull up with confidence more often (which he probably will). I'd be happy to move KCP for a better offensive player and roll with AB in his place.

[eyriq]

Bill Simmons has AB in his honorable mentions on his trade value ranking. He had Castle already around the top 40. They are basically the same player.

[KillMonger]

he was really good vs the heat....good offensive showing.....on defense he was as good as you can get, not just for a second year player either....you can see the flashes offensively tonight, if that can catch up with his defense....you have to see the vision

I'm not drinking the SGA Kool-Aid or even the "sure thing" PG skills version...but I do think he can be a better version of KCP (at least), if he'd just pull up with confidence more often (which he probably will). I'd be happy to move KCP for a better offensive player and roll with AB in his place.

If AB can keep the turnovers low, he could be the kind of PG that could work here....with our two forwards a heliocentric PG will NEVER and i mean never work....for me the areas AB needs to improve on comes with time and reps....thing is though are we willing to give him that time? or do we speed up the timeline by making some decisions that sort of overhaul the team?

[Skybox]

he was really good vs the heat....good offensive showing.....on defense he was as good as you can get, not just for a second year player either....you can see the flashes offensively tonight, if that can catch up with his defense....you have to see the vision

I'm not drinking the SGA Kool-Aid or even the "sure thing" PG skills version...but I do think he can be a better version of KCP (at least), if he'd just pull up with confidence more often (which he probably will). I'd be happy to move KCP for a better offensive player and roll with AB in his place.

If AB can keep the turnovers low, he could be the kind of PG that could work here....with our two forwards a heliocentric PG will NEVER and i mean never work....for me the areas AB needs to improve on comes with time and reps....thing is though are we willing to give him that time? or do we speed up the timeline by making some decisions that sort of overhaul the team?

Personally, I "overhaul" in the form of Simons, who pairs with AB, who can continue to defend and look for opportunistic offense. I truly feel that limiting AB's exposure DOES help his development...he can contribute significantly now and still develop a more well-rounded offensive game on his own pace, with Simons gradually moving more off-ball as AB's progress (hopefully) occurs and makes that an obvious direction...this also probably coincides with KCP's contract/stay in ORL running. As soon as AB makes it a possibility, KCP is moved to another contender and out of his way. In the meantime, we are a much better offensive team (with Simons) while still maintaining tremendous depth of defensive impact players in the backcourt (Suggs, KCP, AB)...we'll see what Simons can do defensively in ORL environment, but it won't be a deal-breaker.

[Rainwater]

Getting tired of his inconsistency. One day he looks great, the next he looks terrible.

[thelead]

Getting tired of his inconsistency. One day he looks great, the next he looks terrible.

It's not even that he looks terrible. It's that he looks disinterested or just going through the motions. I can't tell if it's immaturity or aloofness.

[pepe1991]

Most problematic part about Black is how he is at his worst when he plays with Banchero and Franz.
They relegate him to traffic cone on offense who spots up but can't shoot.

Banchero - Franz- Black net rating is -15,5 on epic 99 offensive rating and solid 87 min played.

I liked Black entering nba, but i remember saying he is terrible fit with us.

Two years later, nothing really changed. He is solid prospect but on current roster make up, he doesn't fit.


I don't know what to say about Jett Howard. Mid way through second year, your lottery pick still can't get any PT. Even Bamba got some burn regardless how terrible he was.