Let's Talk About Mario

[ezzzp]

Fornier is black hole on offense a lot of times and it is really easy to see. If Magic are to become a winning team with Fornier he has either to become best offensive player in NBA or learn to play team ball.

A black hole?

My eyeballs (which watched every single Magic game at least once) tell me that's not accurate. He was the Magic's 3d option and was very often the one who bailed the offense out after the initial options broke down. Statistics tell me the same.



Fournier also happened to be the Magic's most efficient shooter (.587 TS% / .400 3pt%) and most versatile scorer - effective from all areas of the court and a variety of situations; and he was one of the best open court finishers in the NBA (top 87th percentile)...all while defending out of position every night at a position vs some of the NBA's best and most physically gifted players.

...and he's only 23

[Incognito76]

He is black hole because he sucks ball in and doesn't pass when he should. If he was playing for Spurs Popovic would bench him often until he learned how to play basketball correctly. If you don't appreciate a team ball and playing winning basketball and find ISO players kind of players that win, then we should not continue this debate. There is reason teams that move ball are winning and not teams who have most hyped players. And eye sees a lot more then stats do.

[BadMofoPimp]

He is black hole because he sucks ball in and doesn't pass when he should. If he was playing for Spurs Popovic would bench him often until he learned how to play basketball correctly. If you don't appreciate a team ball and playing winning basketball and find ISO players kind of players that win, then we should not continue this debate. There is reason teams that move ball are winning and not teams who have most hyped players. And eye sees a lot more then stats.

Same could be said about Oladipo.
Same could be said about Gordon.
Same could be said about Vooch.

But, if you watched every single game, you would find out that is not true.

[Incognito76]

He is black hole because he sucks ball in and doesn't pass when he should. If he was playing for Spurs Popovic would bench him often until he learned how to play basketball correctly. If you don't appreciate a team ball and playing winning basketball and find ISO players kind of players that win, then we should not continue this debate. There is reason teams that move ball are winning and not teams who have most hyped players. And eye sees a lot more then stats.

Same could be said about Oladipo.
Same could be said about Gordon.
Same could be said about Vooch.

But, if you watched every single game, you would find out that is not true.

I watched all games, thank you.
Gordon is one of more willing passers what are you talking about? Did you watch games? or you just checked assist numbers?
Oladipo stops ball movement when he feels like he has to score instead of just going with the flow and doing right thing.
Vooch is ok passer for C, but once he gets ball in position he thinks he can score he is shooting.

[BadMofoPimp]

He is black hole because he sucks ball in and doesn't pass when he should. If he was playing for Spurs Popovic would bench him often until he learned how to play basketball correctly. If you don't appreciate a team ball and playing winning basketball and find ISO players kind of players that win, then we should not continue this debate. There is reason teams that move ball are winning and not teams who have most hyped players. And eye sees a lot more then stats.

Same could be said about Oladipo.
Same could be said about Gordon.
Same could be said about Vooch.

But, if you watched every single game, you would find out that is not true.

I watched all games, thank you.
Gordon is one of more willing passers what are you talking about? Did you watch games? or you just checked assist numbers?
Oladipo stops ball movement when he feels like he has to score instead of just going with the flow and doing right thing.
Vooch is ok passer for C, but once he gets ball in position he thinks he can score he is shooting.

You didn't get my point. I was stating that anyone could just watch the games and think neither of those players pass much and are ball hogs. But, the truth is all of them including Fournier are decent facilitators who can throw nice passes and do so every game.

People just like to remember the bad plays instead of the good plays and vice versa.

[Von Bismarck]

Fournier also happened to be the Magic's most efficient shooter (.587 TS% / .400 3pt%) and most versatile scorer - effective from all areas of the court and a variety of situations; and he was one of the best open court finishers in the NBA (top 87th percentile)...all while defending out of position every night at a position vs some of the NBA's best and most physically gifted players.

...and he's only 23

Yeah, but you need to mention he was just average offensively at the 2 spot. And to be honest, he was exploited on defense since Tobias' gone, at the 3 spot.

Btw, Mario is .541 TS% and only turned 21.

[Def Swami]

This notion that Fournier is a selfish player who doesn't pass needs to end. It's like guys needed a new player to throw that label to once Harris left. It's so weird, but it's like if none of our draft picks are getting shots, it's a travesty. Such an obscure bias for fans to have that has become more and more apparent to me.

There should be more adulation for Fournier given the strides he made this year; I don't understand how anyone could be upset with the most efficient player on the team at age 23.

[OrlandoNed]

Fournier also happened to be the Magic's most efficient shooter (.587 TS% / .400 3pt%) and most versatile scorer - effective from all areas of the court and a variety of situations; and he was one of the best open court finishers in the NBA (top 87th percentile)...all while defending out of position every night at a position vs some of the NBA's best and most physically gifted players.

...and he's only 23

Yeah, but you need to mention he was just average offensively at the 2 spot. And to be honest, he was exploited on defense since Tobias' gone, at the 3 spot.

Btw, Mario is .541 TS% and only turned 21.

Fournier was the reverse at the 2 and 3. At 2, he's better on D than O and at 3, he's pretty good on O and bad on D. Either way he's a two way player who's a 2 defensively and a 3 offensively.

[Von Bismarck]

Fournier was the reverse at the 2 and 3. At 2, he's better on D than O and at 3, he's pretty good on O and bad on D. Either way he's a two way player who's a 2 defensively and a 3 offensively.

Exactly. But I cannot agree yet he's a 2 way player. As you can easily predict, he will continue to play at the 3 if he stays with us, and at the 3 he's below average defensively. He needs to show improvement but I'm afraid that's not possible simply because most of his opponents at the 3 are simply way more athletic than him.

[ezzzp]

He is black hole because he sucks ball in and doesn't pass when he should. If he was playing for Spurs Popovic would bench him often until he learned how to play basketball correctly. If you don't appreciate a team ball and playing winning basketball and find ISO players kind of players that win, then we should not continue this debate. There is reason teams that move ball are winning and not teams who have most hyped players. And eye sees a lot more then stats do.

The eye misses more when it's lead by a mind that is biased against a specific player. Especially if that player happens to be competing for prominence within the team directly against someone's favorite player.

BTW, the Magic are developing a highly mobile/passing offense:

The team’s pace increased from 93.3 to 95.3. And that was a big part of what Scott Skiles wanted to build. He wanted a team that played with pace — both in the number of possessions and the speed at which the team executed its offense.

But his biggest impact came with the ball and player movement that came with the Magic this year. Orlando saw its distance traveled on offense go up from 8.84 miles per game to 9.50 miles per game, according to NBA.com player tracking stats. They went from one of the most stagnant teams to one of the most active.

And when the Magic offense was working, they were wracking up assists. The Magic went from 282.2 passes per game to 307.8 per game. Again, moving from one of the teams with the fewest passes per game to one of the most.

Orlando Magic Daily: Nylon Calculus Visualizes the Orlando Magic's Offense

...and Fournier is a key part of that:



Also, in case you didn't know, Skiles' offense rarely uses ISO's (27th in NBA) and when they do, Fournier is a 4th on the team in ISO plays.

[BadMofoPimp]

He is black hole because he sucks ball in and doesn't pass when he should. If he was playing for Spurs Popovic would bench him often until he learned how to play basketball correctly. If you don't appreciate a team ball and playing winning basketball and find ISO players kind of players that win, then we should not continue this debate. There is reason teams that move ball are winning and not teams who have most hyped players. And eye sees a lot more then stats do.

The eye misses more when it's lead by a mind that is biased against a specific player. Especially if that player happens to be competing for prominence within the team directly against someone's favorite player.

BTW, the Magic are developing a highly mobile/passing offense:

The team’s pace increased from 93.3 to 95.3. And that was a big part of what Scott Skiles wanted to build. He wanted a team that played with pace — both in the number of possessions and the speed at which the team executed its offense.

But his biggest impact came with the ball and player movement that came with the Magic this year. Orlando saw its distance traveled on offense go up from 8.84 miles per game to 9.50 miles per game, according to NBA.com player tracking stats. They went from one of the most stagnant teams to one of the most active.

And when the Magic offense was working, they were wracking up assists. The Magic went from 282.2 passes per game to 307.8 per game. Again, moving from one of the teams with the fewest passes per game to one of the most.

Orlando Magic Daily: Nylon Calculus Visualizes the Orlando Magic's Offense

...and Fournier is a key part of that:



Also, in case you didn't know, Skiles' offense rarely uses ISO's (27th in NBA) and when they do, Fournier is a 4th on the team in ISO plays.

Get outta here with actual facts!!! I can only remember that time he didn't pass the ball and proceded to miss the shot!!!

[ezzzp]

Fournier also happened to be the Magic's most efficient shooter (.587 TS% / .400 3pt%) and most versatile scorer - effective from all areas of the court and a variety of situations; and he was one of the best open court finishers in the NBA (top 87th percentile)...all while defending out of position every night at a position vs some of the NBA's best and most physically gifted players.

...and he's only 23

Yeah, but you need to mention he was just average offensively at the 2 spot. And to be honest, he was exploited on defense since Tobias' gone, at the 3 spot.

Btw, Mario is .541 TS% and only turned 21.

A .541 TS% is .046 less than .587 TS% and within a dramatically lower volume (921 vs 418 fga's) and done primarily vs 2nd units and less critical moments of the game.

How exactly are you establishing that he was just average offensively at the 2 spot and got exploited at the 3 after Tobias? Of course there are a lot of variables that create these numbers, but the Magic had their best month (in wins and net differential) with Fournier starting at SG. I do believe Oladipo should start at the 2 though.

[ezzzp]

Exactly. But I cannot agree yet he's a 2 way player. As you can easily predict, he will continue to play at the 3 if he stays with us, and at the 3 he's below average defensively. He needs to show improvement but I'm afraid that's not possible simply because most of his opponents at the 3 are simply way more athletic than him.

With free agency and trade season on the horizon, and the Magic on a clear mission to improve the roster - there is absolutely no predictability as to what his role will be if resigned

[SOUL]

I really don't get why it's so hard to criticize Fournier but we can freely admit other faults of other players quite easily (Vuc, Payton, AG, Mario, Dipo...), but I digress.

I would strongly disagree with the word black hole. He's also an efficient offensive player that is good at drawing fouls, shooting the open three and plays with fire.

Numbers aside, I totally understand what people criticize in his offensive game because it happened often this year. But he is young and seems more than capable enough to improve in that area.

[SaberT]

Fournier is not a black hole on offense. He is quite effective and can create his own shot, something that was sorely needed this season with ineffective offense Skiles was running.

However, I can safely say that he does have favorites and passed much more to those people. I think everyone can agree on that.

[ezzzp]

Fournier is not a black hole on offense. He is quite effective and can create his own shot, something that was sorely needed this season with ineffective offense Skiles was running.

However, I can safely say that he does have favorites and passed much more to those people. I think everyone can agree on that.

So what exactly does that mean?

That he trusted some players to make shots more than others? that he passed it to the players who he thought were less likely to screw up the play more than others? I'm not sure what that means? Don't all offenses have a pecking order and who should get passed to in particular spots at particular moments by design?

I mean if he passed it to Vucevic more, well is Vuc not the #1 option on this team? and then Oladipo and EP since Victor is option two and second ball handler and EP is primary ball handler...

[Catledge]

Fournier is not a black hole on offense. He is quite effective and can create his own shot, something that was sorely needed this season with ineffective offense Skiles was running.

However, I can safely say that he does have favorites and passed much more to those people. I think everyone can agree on that.

So what exactly does that mean?

That he trusted some players to make shots more than others? that he passed it to the players who he thought were less likely to screw up the play more than others? I'm not sure what that means? Don't all offenses have a pecking order and who should get passed to in particular spots at particular moments by design?

I mean if he passed it to Vucevic more, well is Vuc not the #1 option on this team? and then Oladipo and EP since Victor is option two and second ball handler and EP is primary ball handler...

Mic-dropping evidence on the posts above this one, Ez. Thanks for putting that together for us.

As to the point in the post I quoted, I think it's also worth noting that it's not really weird for a young player who is growing into an efficient offensive game to get frustrated with passing to teammates who miss a lot of open shots.

Fournier's defense, on the other hand, does seem to be a big weakness. It seemed to me that opposing teams really made a point of attacking him in the second half of the year.

[thelead]

He is black hole because he sucks ball in and doesn't pass when he should. If he was playing for Spurs Popovic would bench him often until he learned how to play basketball correctly. If you don't appreciate a team ball and playing winning basketball and find ISO players kind of players that win, then we should not continue this debate. There is reason teams that move ball are winning and not teams who have most hyped players. And eye sees a lot more then stats do.

The eye misses more when it's lead by a mind that is biased against a specific player. Especially if that player happens to be competing for prominence within the team directly against someone's favorite player.

BTW, the Magic are developing a highly mobile/passing offense:

The team’s pace increased from 93.3 to 95.3. And that was a big part of what Scott Skiles wanted to build. He wanted a team that played with pace — both in the number of possessions and the speed at which the team executed its offense.

But his biggest impact came with the ball and player movement that came with the Magic this year. Orlando saw its distance traveled on offense go up from 8.84 miles per game to 9.50 miles per game, according to NBA.com player tracking stats. They went from one of the most stagnant teams to one of the most active.

And when the Magic offense was working, they were wracking up assists. The Magic went from 282.2 passes per game to 307.8 per game. Again, moving from one of the teams with the fewest passes per game to one of the most.

Orlando Magic Daily: Nylon Calculus Visualizes the Orlando Magic's Offense

...and Fournier is a key part of that:



Also, in case you didn't know, Skiles' offense rarely uses ISO's (27th in NBA) and when they do, Fournier is a 4th on the team in ISO plays.

Get outta here with actual facts!!! I can only remember that time he didn't pass the ball and proceded to miss the shot!!!

Looking at those numbers leads me to believe that he isn't that great of a passer when you consider how often he has the ball in his hands and how many minutes he played. I mean, AG played ~700 less minutes but made ~200 less passes. Now, think about how often Evan had the opportunity to pass versus AG's opportunities. Evan was looking out for his bank account last year. He played well for most of the season but he often missed plenty of passes (as did Dipo for half the year). Oladipo played ~200 less minutes but had ~300 more passes. Vuc played ~500 less minutes but had ~150 more passes. Not seeing how that make Evan look good.

[ezzzp]

Looking at those numbers leads me to believe that he isn't that great of a passer when you consider how often he has the ball in his hands and how many minutes he played. I mean, AG played ~700 less minutes but made ~200 less passes. Now, think about how often Evan had the opportunity to pass versus AG's opportunities. Evan was looking out for his bank account last year. He played well for most of the season but he often missed plenty of passes (as did Dipo for half the year). Oladipo played ~200 less minutes but had ~200 more passes.

not really...

Fournier Assist Ratio: 15.5
Gordon Assist Ratio: 14.9

*Assist Ratio is the number of assists a player averages per 100 of their own possessions NBA.com

Oladipo was also the secondary ball handler behind EP, and often initiated the offense. Anyone who watched Magic games regularly knows that.

[SOUL]

Also, just realized this is a Mario thread. Should probably keep the Fournier talk to his own thread if he has one (or we can make one).