The Trade Thread II

[magicfan4life88]

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[Max Power]

Can these links be summarized guys??


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[rcklsscognition]

Philly is not trading Okafor for that garbage.

[Mc-o]

Oh I see. Do you think Gordon can be a star PF?

Ag a Star? AG doesn't look like a star at SF or PF. Atleast at PF he looked like an NBA starter.

It's called being a developmental player. The fact that he has shown flashes is encouraging because that gives us a hint of his potential. Once he starts to build consistency, then that's the next level.

If you're not on board with player development here then you're the one with the wrong expectations.

I never said I was against development. My expectation is for Ag to develop into a starter , hopefully borderline all star. I do not expect AG to become a franchise carrying star. I just haven't seen these "flashes" you are referring too. I ve seen flashes where he has looked like a decent nba starter but nothing to show that he can carry a team. The games this year he has had big scoring games were mainly him making the same shots he usually misses and while a good one on one defender , he hasn't shown imo a lot of star potential outside of his Dunk contest dunks. Im not saying AG is not a good player just don't think its fair to expect him to be a star because he doesn't look to have enough tools on offense to be a franchise player. In my opinion his offense has suffered and overall impact on the game because he isn't being used to his strength. Last year while playing the 4 imo AG was able to impact the game a lot more because hew as able to get more rebounds and start the break . also was able to get a lot more put backs and clean up points. This year he has become a jump shooter who cant shoot and rarely ever drives .

[pepe1991]

I don't think that there is any problem with ag starting at the 3. Yes it would be amazing that he can hit the 3 ball more consistently.... but I would like to see him as a jump shooter last more than anything. cut to the basket ....make your self available. use your athleticism and size at the position to your advantage..... anddddddddddd if need be take the jumper when available. Attack the rim first.... get to the line...with ibaka out at the line as well CRASH THE BOARDS.... and lastly take a jump shot if available. Would be great if he even refined his post game as well ... probably much more doable than his shot. And let the shot confidence build from there.

I don't think that most people here understand fundamentals of basketball.
Most of time you can't attack and break man 1 on 1 if defender doesn't respect your jump shot. When you are bad shooter defender is not that close to you, so when you attack him offf dribble he has enough tme and space between you and him to react, short your angle in a cut and stop penetration with his body.

IF you are good shooter, however, defender must respect your jumper, that means he will try to stay close to you and he will contest shots and jump on your pumpfakes, so ,when you attack him off drible ,because he stays close to you, with your first step you can create enough of adventage to break him 1 on1 and attack the rim.

So, it doesn't matter is Gordon athletic or he is not, if defender never contests his shots and stays in defensive position ( has defensive posture that you learn at basketball camps at age of 7 ) he will never be able to attack the rim because he will never be able to break defender 1 on 1 and go pass him.

Butler, DeRozan, Giannis, Wade, LeBron, Carmelo, Monta Ellis, Josh Smith, Tyreke Evans, Antwan Jamison - there are plenty of guys who have been able to still become good scorers without having a shot that should put fear into anybody (or at least not early in their careers).

Gordon's biggest problem right now isn't his shot, it's that he lacks the instincts on how to use his handles best. Payton is the perfect example of a guy who can't shoot well, but he can still get to the rim most times that he wants to. There are plenty of PGs who are poor shooters, too, but they can still make a living scoring in the paint. I didn't mention them, though, because Gordon will never have a PG's handles.

Gordon's best games this season came when the team actively got him a mismatch against a smaller wing that he could back down. He can't post up or back down players with size, but he can get do a lot more damage against guys who are smaller than him. That's what we've needed to focus on more this season with him, but haven't.

Derozan,Wade, Melo all have elite mid range games and they are elite at drawing fouls. Melo had seasons where he was elite 3 point shooter (2013-14 for exaple ) Lebronis hall of famer, type of player that shows up once every 30 -40 years. He averaged 21 ppg at age of 18 and half, what always made him beast on offense is his vision and ability to draw fouls. Also he is much better shooter people give him credit for. Career 34,1% for 3, that's category of "average " ,so he was never really awful.

Giannis, like Lebron, great court vision opens games for him and for others, ability to draw fouls make his game so great. (also how many players can run the floor in like 5 steps and dunk from free trow line in middle of a game and then go back on defense and protect a rim? In last 30-40 games only handful of players could do it, Gordon is not one of them )

Tyreke is garbage IMO, he is definition of do everyting, do nothing really good type of player. Same with Monta Elise. It's no accident that they spent most of their career on awful teams.

[Skin]

Ag a Star? AG doesn't look like a star at SF or PF. Atleast at PF he looked like an NBA starter.

It's called being a developmental player. The fact that he has shown flashes is encouraging because that gives us a hint of his potential. Once he starts to build consistency, then that's the next level.

If you're not on board with player development here then you're the one with the wrong expectations.

I never said I was against development. My expectation is for Ag to develop into a starter , hopefully borderline all star. I do not expect AG to become a franchise carrying star. I just haven't seen these "flashes" you are referring too. I ve seen flashes where he has looked like a decent nba starter but nothing to show that he can carry a team. The games this year he has had big scoring games were mainly him making the same shots he usually misses and while a good one on one defender , he hasn't shown imo a lot of star potential outside of his Dunk contest dunks. Im not saying AG is not a good player just don't think its fair to expect him to be a star because he doesn't look to have enough tools on offense to be a franchise player. In my opinion his offense has suffered and overall impact on the game because he isn't being used to his strength. Last year while playing the 4 imo AG was able to impact the game a lot more because hew as able to get more rebounds and start the break . also was able to get a lot more put backs and clean up points. This year he has become a jump shooter who cant shoot and rarely ever drives.

C'mon, no flashes? That's being a hater. I will continue to debate if you can be somewhat fair. I will try to see your POV as well. Going into the season we had a lot of open ended questions on how Gordon would perform as a SF. It has not all been bad. Maybe I'm being unrealistic in thinking that patience will pay off. But did we or did we not all expect this year to be a developmental year for Gordon with ups and downs?

I dunno, but I always thought that if the "AG at SF project" failed after a good honest effort of trying, THEN Gordon can be settled in as a small ball role player who can come off the bench and serve as some kind of momentum shifter aka X factor type. UNLESS he packs on a good 15-20 pounds and becomes a banger, develops a midrange game and some go to low post moves... I mean, he'll never become Blake Griffin, but at least then I would reconsider him a starting quality PF.

But right now... I think people need to stop judging him as if he's a finished product.

[Bensational]

Butler, DeRozan, Giannis, Wade, LeBron, Carmelo, Monta Ellis, Josh Smith, Tyreke Evans, Antwan Jamison - there are plenty of guys who have been able to still become good scorers without having a shot that should put fear into anybody (or at least not early in their careers).

Gordon's biggest problem right now isn't his shot, it's that he lacks the instincts on how to use his handles best. Payton is the perfect example of a guy who can't shoot well, but he can still get to the rim most times that he wants to. There are plenty of PGs who are poor shooters, too, but they can still make a living scoring in the paint. I didn't mention them, though, because Gordon will never have a PG's handles.

Gordon's best games this season came when the team actively got him a mismatch against a smaller wing that he could back down. He can't post up or back down players with size, but he can get do a lot more damage against guys who are smaller than him. That's what we've needed to focus on more this season with him, but haven't.

Derozan,Wade, Melo all have elite mid range games and they are elite at drawing fouls. Melo had seasons where he was elite 3 point shooter (2013-14 for exaple ) Lebronis hall of famer, type of player that shows up once every 30 -40 years. He averaged 21 ppg at age of 18 and half, what always made him beast on offense is his vision and ability to draw fouls. Also he is much better shooter people give him credit for. Career 34,1% for 3, that's category of "average " ,so he was never really awful.

Giannis, like Lebron, great court vision opens games for him and for others, ability to draw fouls make his game so great. (also how many players can run the floor in like 5 steps and dunk from free trow line in middle of a game and then go back on defense and protect a rim? In last 30-40 games only handful of players could do it, Gordon is not one of them )

Tyreke is garbage IMO, he is definition of do everyting, do nothing really good type of player. Same with Monta Elise. It's no accident that they spent most of their career on awful teams.

None of that builds a case to say Gordon couldn't find a way to become a scorer without becoming a good shooter.

DeRozan isn't elite at the mid range game, nor is Wade. What the heck is your definition of elite?? Floating around or under 40% for most of their careers? Vucevic shoots the mid range game at a significantly higher level than them. Do you know what Gordon's mid range percentage is this season? It's 39%. Do you know what DeRozan's was in his 3rd year? 41%. Wade's was 37%.

The fact is that those guys all found ways to use their strengths to allow them to score baskets. Whether it's athleticism, handles, passing or what, they found ways that didn't involve being a good shooter.

That's why I'm saying that AG's biggest problem at this point seems like he's not learning how to use his other skills to get him easy buckets yet. He relies on his jump shot, or he forgets to try to find mismatches and abuse them. (Sometimes he does, but he'll get waved off by Payton/Fournier/Ibaka). I'd say that if by the end of the season he doesn't look a lot more capable at using his dribble, then he'll likely struggle to put it all together and become a star. But he's shown flashes this season and my hope is that Forcier can help him get smarter with those plays.

[Mc-o]

It's called being a developmental player. The fact that he has shown flashes is encouraging because that gives us a hint of his potential. Once he starts to build consistency, then that's the next level.

If you're not on board with player development here then you're the one with the wrong expectations.

I never said I was against development. My expectation is for Ag to develop into a starter , hopefully borderline all star. I do not expect AG to become a franchise carrying star. I just haven't seen these "flashes" you are referring too. I ve seen flashes where he has looked like a decent nba starter but nothing to show that he can carry a team. The games this year he has had big scoring games were mainly him making the same shots he usually misses and while a good one on one defender , he hasn't shown imo a lot of star potential outside of his Dunk contest dunks. Im not saying AG is not a good player just don't think its fair to expect him to be a star because he doesn't look to have enough tools on offense to be a franchise player. In my opinion his offense has suffered and overall impact on the game because he isn't being used to his strength. Last year while playing the 4 imo AG was able to impact the game a lot more because hew as able to get more rebounds and start the break . also was able to get a lot more put backs and clean up points. This year he has become a jump shooter who cant shoot and rarely ever drives.

C'mon, no flashes? That's being a hater. I will continue to debate if you can be somewhat fair. I will try to see your POV as well. Going into the season we had a lot of open ended questions on how Gordon would perform as a SF. It has not all been bad. Maybe I'm being unrealistic in thinking that patience will pay off. But did we or did we not all expect this year to be a developmental year for Gordon with ups and downs?

I dunno, but I always thought that if the "AG at SF project" failed after a good honest effort of trying, THEN Gordon can be settled in as a small ball role player who can come off the bench and serve as some kind of momentum shifter aka X factor type. UNLESS he packs on a good 15-20 pounds and becomes a banger, develops a midrange game and some go to low post moves... I mean, he'll never become Blake Griffin, but at least then I would reconsider him a starting quality PF.

But right now... I think people need to stop judging him as if he's a finished product.

I'm not hating on ag I like him and want him on the team I just have different expectation of what he will become . I haven't seen flashes of him being able to carry a franchise , he has had flashes showing he could be a solid NBA starter/ borderline all star . That's all I'm saying , I agree he is still developing , I just don't expect him to develop into a franchise player ! Which is ok

[Mrrags009]

If pelicans are looking for a center does a vuc Payton for holiday hield work for anyone

Sent from my XT1650 using RealGM mobile app

[Skin]

I never said I was against development. My expectation is for Ag to develop into a starter , hopefully borderline all star. I do not expect AG to become a franchise carrying star. I just haven't seen these "flashes" you are referring too. I ve seen flashes where he has looked like a decent nba starter but nothing to show that he can carry a team. The games this year he has had big scoring games were mainly him making the same shots he usually misses and while a good one on one defender , he hasn't shown imo a lot of star potential outside of his Dunk contest dunks. Im not saying AG is not a good player just don't think its fair to expect him to be a star because he doesn't look to have enough tools on offense to be a franchise player. In my opinion his offense has suffered and overall impact on the game because he isn't being used to his strength. Last year while playing the 4 imo AG was able to impact the game a lot more because hew as able to get more rebounds and start the break . also was able to get a lot more put backs and clean up points. This year he has become a jump shooter who cant shoot and rarely ever drives.

C'mon, no flashes? That's being a hater. I will continue to debate if you can be somewhat fair. I will try to see your POV as well. Going into the season we had a lot of open ended questions on how Gordon would perform as a SF. It has not all been bad. Maybe I'm being unrealistic in thinking that patience will pay off. But did we or did we not all expect this year to be a developmental year for Gordon with ups and downs?

I dunno, but I always thought that if the "AG at SF project" failed after a good honest effort of trying, THEN Gordon can be settled in as a small ball role player who can come off the bench and serve as some kind of momentum shifter aka X factor type. UNLESS he packs on a good 15-20 pounds and becomes a banger, develops a midrange game and some go to low post moves... I mean, he'll never become Blake Griffin, but at least then I would reconsider him a starting quality PF.

But right now... I think people need to stop judging him as if he's a finished product.

I'm not hating on ag I like him and want him on the team I just have different expectation of what he will become . I haven't seen flashes of him being able to carry a franchise , he has had flashes showing he could be a solid NBA starter/ borderline all star . That's all I'm saying , I agree he is still developing , I just don't expect him to develop into a franchise player ! Which is ok

OK, well I didn't say he gave flashes of being able to carry a franchise either. That little descriptor was inserted by you but isn't a counter to what I originally said. So we can both agree that putting him in that category is beyond both of our expectations... especially coming into this season. ...can we both agree that he isn't a finished product?

If Gordon isn't having a significant breakout season next year, then I will be ready to move on to him better off being a bench player. Maybe he is our 6th man who can bring energy from both SF and PF positions off the bench. Hmmm.... I really like the sound of that.

[Mc-o]

C'mon, no flashes? That's being a hater. I will continue to debate if you can be somewhat fair. I will try to see your POV as well. Going into the season we had a lot of open ended questions on how Gordon would perform as a SF. It has not all been bad. Maybe I'm being unrealistic in thinking that patience will pay off. But did we or did we not all expect this year to be a developmental year for Gordon with ups and downs?

I dunno, but I always thought that if the "AG at SF project" failed after a good honest effort of trying, THEN Gordon can be settled in as a small ball role player who can come off the bench and serve as some kind of momentum shifter aka X factor type. UNLESS he packs on a good 15-20 pounds and becomes a banger, develops a midrange game and some go to low post moves... I mean, he'll never become Blake Griffin, but at least then I would reconsider him a starting quality PF.

But right now... I think people need to stop judging him as if he's a finished product.

I'm not hating on ag I like him and want him on the team I just have different expectation of what he will become . I haven't seen flashes of him being able to carry a franchise , he has had flashes showing he could be a solid NBA starter/ borderline all star . That's all I'm saying , I agree he is still developing , I just don't expect him to develop into a franchise player ! Which is ok

OK, well I didn't say he gave flashes of being able to carry a franchise either. That little descriptor was inserted by you but isn't a counter to what I originally said. So we can both agree that putting him in that category is beyond both of our expectations... especially coming into this season. ...can we both agree that he isn't a finished product?

If Gordon isn't having a significant breakout season next year, then I will be ready to move on to him better off being a bench player. Maybe he is our 6th man who can bring energy from both SF and PF positions off the bench. Hmmm.... I really like the sound of that.

Yeah I never said he was a finished product I just don't expect him to be a star ! I think we pretty much are saying the same thing lol hahaha

[Skin]

If pelicans are looking for a center does a vuc Payton for holiday hield work for anyone

Sent from my XT1650 using RealGM mobile app

Hmmm hmmm hmmm...

YES!

It's another risk that we'll be able to keep Holiday in FA, but I think that's a move we can make to help convince both of them to stay with us. As much as I enjoy Payton improving, Holiday is on another level. 40% 3pt shooter who can score in a variety of ways AND play defense. He's Vogel's type of PG... I've been saying that for a while.

Hield is a work in progress, but I LOVED him as a draft prospect. Maybe we could even flip him to CHI in order to get Butler.

LOVE THIS IDEA. Thank you sir.

[MagicFan101]

If pelicans are looking for a center does a vuc Payton for holiday hield work for anyone

Sent from my XT1650 using RealGM mobile app

Hmmm hmmm hmmm...

YES!

It's another risk that we'll be able to keep Holiday in FA, but I think that's a move we can make to help convince both of them to stay with us. As much as I enjoy Payton improving, Holiday is on another level. 40% 3pt shooter who can score in a variety of ways AND play defense. He's Vogel's type of PG... I've been saying that for a while.

Hield is a work in progress, but I LOVED him as a draft prospect. Maybe we could even flip him to CHI in order to get Butler.

LOVE THIS IDEA. Thank you sir.

Heild is one of the low ceiling college star type of players. I can't see why anyone would LOVE him at the NBA level. He would be a nice piece in a bigger trade but I wouldn't go out of my way to acquire him. If we trade Vuc then I want draft picks, an established star or better prospects than Hield.

[Blue_and_Whte]

If pelicans are looking for a center does a vuc Payton for holiday hield work for anyone

Sent from my XT1650 using RealGM mobile app

Hmmm hmmm hmmm...

YES!

It's another risk that we'll be able to keep Holiday in FA, but I think that's a move we can make to help convince both of them to stay with us. As much as I enjoy Payton improving, Holiday is on another level. 40% 3pt shooter who can score in a variety of ways AND play defense. He's Vogel's type of PG... I've been saying that for a while.

Hield is a work in progress, but I LOVED him as a draft prospect. Maybe we could even flip him to CHI in order to get Butler.

LOVE THIS IDEA. Thank you sir.

Heild is one of the low ceiling college star type of players. I can't see why anyone would LOVE him at the NBA level. He would be a nice piece in a bigger trade but I wouldn't go out of my way to acquire him. If we trade Vuc then I want draft picks, an established star or better prospects than Hield.

not if you're trying to tank you don't.



Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[MagicFan101]

Hmmm hmmm hmmm...

YES!

It's another risk that we'll be able to keep Holiday in FA, but I think that's a move we can make to help convince both of them to stay with us. As much as I enjoy Payton improving, Holiday is on another level. 40% 3pt shooter who can score in a variety of ways AND play defense. He's Vogel's type of PG... I've been saying that for a while.

Hield is a work in progress, but I LOVED him as a draft prospect. Maybe we could even flip him to CHI in order to get Butler.

LOVE THIS IDEA. Thank you sir.

Heild is one of the low ceiling college star type of players. I can't see why anyone would LOVE him at the NBA level. He would be a nice piece in a bigger trade but I wouldn't go out of my way to acquire him. If we trade Vuc then I want draft picks, an established star or better prospects than Hield.

not if you're trying to tank you don't.



Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

The purpose of tanking is to find a star. If we can trade our prospects for a star the tank ends. If not, trading them for more picks is a great idea. If neither is available consolidating them into better prospects is another option.

... all of this is fundamental tanking strategy.

[tiderulz]

I never said I was against development. My expectation is for Ag to develop into a starter , hopefully borderline all star. I do not expect AG to become a franchise carrying star. I just haven't seen these "flashes" you are referring too. I ve seen flashes where he has looked like a decent nba starter but nothing to show that he can carry a team. The games this year he has had big scoring games were mainly him making the same shots he usually misses and while a good one on one defender , he hasn't shown imo a lot of star potential outside of his Dunk contest dunks. Im not saying AG is not a good player just don't think its fair to expect him to be a star because he doesn't look to have enough tools on offense to be a franchise player. In my opinion his offense has suffered and overall impact on the game because he isn't being used to his strength. Last year while playing the 4 imo AG was able to impact the game a lot more because hew as able to get more rebounds and start the break . also was able to get a lot more put backs and clean up points. This year he has become a jump shooter who cant shoot and rarely ever drives.

C'mon, no flashes? That's being a hater. I will continue to debate if you can be somewhat fair. I will try to see your POV as well. Going into the season we had a lot of open ended questions on how Gordon would perform as a SF. It has not all been bad. Maybe I'm being unrealistic in thinking that patience will pay off. But did we or did we not all expect this year to be a developmental year for Gordon with ups and downs?

I dunno, but I always thought that if the "AG at SF project" failed after a good honest effort of trying, THEN Gordon can be settled in as a small ball role player who can come off the bench and serve as some kind of momentum shifter aka X factor type. UNLESS he packs on a good 15-20 pounds and becomes a banger, develops a midrange game and some go to low post moves... I mean, he'll never become Blake Griffin, but at least then I would reconsider him a starting quality PF.

But right now... I think people need to stop judging him as if he's a finished product.

I'm not hating on ag I like him and want him on the team I just have different expectation of what he will become . I haven't seen flashes of him being able to carry a franchise , he has had flashes showing he could be a solid NBA starter/ borderline all star . That's all I'm saying , I agree he is still developing , I just don't expect him to develop into a franchise player ! Which is ok

this is where i am at also

[Skin]

If pelicans are looking for a center does a vuc Payton for holiday hield work for anyone

Sent from my XT1650 using RealGM mobile app

Hmmm hmmm hmmm...

YES!

It's another risk that we'll be able to keep Holiday in FA, but I think that's a move we can make to help convince both of them to stay with us. As much as I enjoy Payton improving, Holiday is on another level. 40% 3pt shooter who can score in a variety of ways AND play defense. He's Vogel's type of PG... I've been saying that for a while.

Hield is a work in progress, but I LOVED him as a draft prospect. Maybe we could even flip him to CHI in order to get Butler.

LOVE THIS IDEA. Thank you sir.

Heild is one of the low ceiling college star type of players. I can't see why anyone would LOVE him at the NBA level. He would be a nice piece in a bigger trade but I wouldn't go out of my way to acquire him. If we trade Vuc then I want draft picks, an established star or better prospects than Hield.

Vuc could not net us a lottery pick. Hield had more value than that last year.

[MagicFan101]

Hmmm hmmm hmmm...

YES!

It's another risk that we'll be able to keep Holiday in FA, but I think that's a move we can make to help convince both of them to stay with us. As much as I enjoy Payton improving, Holiday is on another level. 40% 3pt shooter who can score in a variety of ways AND play defense. He's Vogel's type of PG... I've been saying that for a while.

Hield is a work in progress, but I LOVED him as a draft prospect. Maybe we could even flip him to CHI in order to get Butler.

LOVE THIS IDEA. Thank you sir.

Heild is one of the low ceiling college star type of players. I can't see why anyone would LOVE him at the NBA level. He would be a nice piece in a bigger trade but I wouldn't go out of my way to acquire him. If we trade Vuc then I want draft picks, an established star or better prospects than Hield.

Vuc could not net us a lottery pick. Hield had more value than that last year.

I don't believe I used the word "lottery" in my list.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Heild is one of the low ceiling college star type of players. I can't see why anyone would LOVE him at the NBA level. He would be a nice piece in a bigger trade but I wouldn't go out of my way to acquire him. If we trade Vuc then I want draft picks, an established star or better prospects than Hield.

not if you're trying to tank you don't.



Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

The purpose of tanking is to find a star. If we can trade our prospects for a star the tank ends. If not, trading them for more picks is a great idea. If neither is available consolidating them into better prospects is another option.

... all of this is fundamental tanking strategy.

The purpose of tanking is obvious. The problem is our prospects aren't landing us a star. Picks and/or prospects would be my obvious choice. Hield is realistically what we could get for package around Payton/Nik

[MagicFan101]

not if you're trying to tank you don't.



Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

The purpose of tanking is to find a star. If we can trade our prospects for a star the tank ends. If not, trading them for more picks is a great idea. If neither is available consolidating them into better prospects is another option.

... all of this is fundamental tanking strategy.

The purpose of tanking is obvious. The problem is our prospects aren't landing us a star. Picks and/or prospects would be my obvious choice. Hield is realistically what we could get for package around Payton/Nik

We're staring at a top 5 pick in a deep class this year. If we get some luck and jump the Lakers for a top 3 pick while pushing them out of the top 3 then we suddenly have two super valuable draft choices. Last year the #5 seed had a 30% chance at a top 3 pick while the #4 seed had a 38% chance. This isn't out of the realm of possibility.

You don't think our prospects + one or perhaps even both of these picks could land us a star?

Cousins is always a mystery.

Jimmy Butler isn't happy.

Paul George is being a professional but can't be enjoying that season and still has fond memories of Vogel.

I don't want Melo and he wouldn't want Orlando but he is out there.

... none of these teams would be interested in starting over with Gordon, Vuc and some prized draft choice?