Cole World: Orlando Magic Select Cole Anthony at #15

[pepe1991]

Look at Kemba's first 4 years. 304, 305, 322, and 333 from 3. Then at 25 he raised his 3 pt shooting to 370. Players get better and i could see Coby making a few allstar teams.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/walkeke02.html

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Coby White "run" against garbage teams, during clear intentions of Bulls to tank is equivalent of Mario Hezonja emergency during 2017 when he averaged like 20 points a game. Or Elfrid Payton finding desire to play basketball and chase stats in March and April of every year, right in time to make impression on GM to not trade or draft replacment.

It's meaningless and usless and shouldn't be viewed as anything but level of competition that declines over time as regular season meats it's ends.
Just like Magic would play hard last 10 games against teams that sucked on purpose or saved energy for playoffs- on purpose and entering new regular season fans carried that "but we improved,look at our last 10 games" false hope into new one.

Coby White didn't got better from April 20 to April 22 of same year. Right before his "run" he shot 30-92 ( 32,6% FG) in 8 games prior. But during that streach they played Indiana, Toronto, San Antonio and Philly...later during his scoring streak, they played teams i already named.

Coby is definition of bench player. If everythnig goes right he might become Jeremy Lamb type player.

So based on what Kemba did when he was 20, he's a bench warmer?

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Kemba averaged 23 ppg at college, was 9th pick and in second year of nba averaged 18 ppg.
He also averaged 12 ppg in rookie year.

kemba's limiting factor is not talent, is complete lack of size.

[basketballRob]

Coby White "run" against garbage teams, during clear intentions of Bulls to tank is equivalent of Mario Hezonja emergency during 2017 when he averaged like 20 points a game. Or Elfrid Payton finding desire to play basketball and chase stats in March and April of every year, right in time to make impression on GM to not trade or draft replacment.

It's meaningless and usless and shouldn't be viewed as anything but level of competition that declines over time as regular season meats it's ends.
Just like Magic would play hard last 10 games against teams that sucked on purpose or saved energy for playoffs- on purpose and entering new regular season fans carried that "but we improved,look at our last 10 games" false hope into new one.

Coby White didn't got better from April 20 to April 22 of same year. Right before his "run" he shot 30-92 ( 32,6% FG) in 8 games prior. But during that streach they played Indiana, Toronto, San Antonio and Philly...later during his scoring streak, they played teams i already named.

Coby is definition of bench player. If everythnig goes right he might become Jeremy Lamb type player.

So based on what Kemba did when he was 20, he's a bench warmer?

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Kemba averaged 23 ppg at college, was 9th pick and in second year of nba averaged 18 ppg.
He also averaged 12 ppg in rookie year.

kemba's limiting factor is not talent, is complete lack of size.

Kemba was as older than Coby is now when he averaged 23 ppg. Do you think Coby would average 23 ppg if he played college this year?

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[tiderulz]

Coby White "run" against garbage teams, during clear intentions of Bulls to tank is equivalent of Mario Hezonja emergency during 2017 when he averaged like 20 points a game. Or Elfrid Payton finding desire to play basketball and chase stats in March and April of every year, right in time to make impression on GM to not trade or draft replacment.

It's meaningless and usless and shouldn't be viewed as anything but level of competition that declines over time as regular season meats it's ends.
Just like Magic would play hard last 10 games against teams that sucked on purpose or saved energy for playoffs- on purpose and entering new regular season fans carried that "but we improved,look at our last 10 games" false hope into new one.

Coby White didn't got better from April 20 to April 22 of same year. Right before his "run" he shot 30-92 ( 32,6% FG) in 8 games prior. But during that streach they played Indiana, Toronto, San Antonio and Philly...later during his scoring streak, they played teams i already named.

Coby is definition of bench player. If everythnig goes right he might become Jeremy Lamb type player.

So based on what Kemba did when he was 20, he's a bench warmer?

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Kemba averaged 23 ppg at college, was 9th pick and in second year of nba averaged 18 ppg.
He also averaged 12 ppg in rookie year.

kemba's limiting factor is not talent, is complete lack of size.

so can we wait until Anthony plays even one NBA minute before making any declarations about him?

[basketballRob]

So based on what Kemba did when he was 20, he's a bench warmer?

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Kemba averaged 23 ppg at college, was 9th pick and in second year of nba averaged 18 ppg.
He also averaged 12 ppg in rookie year.

kemba's limiting factor is not talent, is complete lack of size.

so can we wait until Anthony plays even one NBA minute before making any declarations about him?

I can tell that Cole is bigger than the average PG before he plays

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[Knightro]

The other thing I saw a lot with Cole Anthony at North Carolina specifically was a noticeable lack of trust in his teammates.

It's easy to broadly say Cole is a shameless gunner because he took all sorts of bad shots this past year. But I think it goes a little deeper than that.

I started trying to figure out the reasons *why* Anthony was playing that way and why his passing and willingness to share the ball seemingly appeared to decline from his HS, EYBL and all-star circuit days.

While I do not think Anthony is not a particularly skilled passer, to my untrained eyes he was a more willing passer at the lower levels compared to when he got to college.

Everything seemed to change at UNC. In very short order it seemed like Anthony decided/realized that his teammates just weren't all that capable of making shots and you could almost see his mentality change to more of a "if I don't take these shots, we have no chance to win this game because passing to these guys is going to result in a worse shot than I can just put up myself."

Unfortunately for Anthony he just wasn't capable of being that rising tide that lifted all boats. His efficiency cratered. The team really struggled. He got injured and everything just snowballed into the mess it became.

[Knightro]

Kemba averaged 23 ppg at college, was 9th pick and in second year of nba averaged 18 ppg.
He also averaged 12 ppg in rookie year.

kemba's limiting factor is not talent, is complete lack of size.

You gotta be fair and compare these guys at the same age and experience level.

Kemba as a college freshman averaged just 8.9 PPG, 2.9 APG and shot 27% from three in 25 MPG. As a sophomore his efficiency was actually even worse. He wasn't even really on the NBA radar two years into his college career.

But he kept working on his game, kept improving and obviously he blew up in his junior year and parlayed that great season into being a top 10 pick.

I'm not saying Anthony is definitely going to become really good like Kemba did because the odds are not in his favor, but you are one of the most guilty posters we have here about rushing to judgement on guys.

Some players get better over time. Some players stay the same. Some players get worse. Development is not linear.

[MadGical]

Not sure if this was posted already, but this article gives a lot of context on what Anthony went through.

First and foremost, he was playing with a roster that was bereft of talent when it was healthy and then further got decimated by injuries, including to himself. The team had one player other than Anthony who made more than 16 threes all season, and he was in and out of the lineup all year thanks to injuries. And even the players who made 16, 16, 16, and 13 threes shot them at rates of 32%, 22.8%, 22.5%, and 20% - given even average shooters for teammates, Anthony’s assists probably go over 6 per game instead of an underwhelming 4. Because of that lack of threat on the outside, he also didn’t have space to operate inside the paint. Like I said before, there are real concerns about his first step and slashing ability that weren’t there in high school because he was athletic enough to cover it up against high schoolers, but that was compounded by defenses that were able to pack the paint with no fear of getting burned by a kick-out pass for an open 3.%

a disproportionate number of those attempts were pull-up jumpers: only half of his three-point makes were assisted (Coby White shot a similar percentage in 2018-19, for comparison, and 72% of his makes were assisted), and if I remember the Synergy screenshots I’ve seen, he was somewhere near the 80th percentile, at least, in pull-up shooting. That’s going to be his main contribution to the Magic, in my opinion

https://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2020/11/23/21590886/orlando-magic-cole-anthony-2020-nba-draft

[basketballRob]

I saw an old clip of Cliff saying that the pull up 3 pt shot is the hardest in basketball to guard. We haven't had someone that could do that in a while.

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[Skin]

The other thing I saw a lot with Cole Anthony at North Carolina specifically was a noticeable lack of trust in his teammates.

It's easy to broadly say Cole is a shameless gunner because he took all sorts of bad shots this past year. But I think it goes a little deeper than that.

I started trying to figure out the reasons *why* Anthony was playing that way and why his passing and willingness to share the ball seemingly appeared to decline from his HS, EYBL and all-star circuit days.

While I do not think Anthony is not a particularly skilled passer, to my untrained eyes he was a more willing passer at the lower levels compared to when he got to college.

Everything seemed to change at UNC. In very short order it seemed like Anthony decided/realized that his teammates just weren't all that capable of making shots and you could almost see his mentality change to more of a "if I don't take these shots, we have no chance to win this game because passing to these guys is going to result in a worse shot than I can just put up myself."

Unfortunately for Anthony he just wasn't capable of being that rising tide that lifted all boats. His efficiency cratered. The team really struggled. He got injured and everything just snowballed into the mess it became.

About how many games in do you think he realized this? Because from my untrained eye it appears he either thought that from before Game 1 or he never thought that at all and is now using it as a convenient excuse.

[JBSouthpaw]

The other thing I saw a lot with Cole Anthony at North Carolina specifically was a noticeable lack of trust in his teammates.

It's easy to broadly say Cole is a shameless gunner because he took all sorts of bad shots this past year. But I think it goes a little deeper than that.

I started trying to figure out the reasons *why* Anthony was playing that way and why his passing and willingness to share the ball seemingly appeared to decline from his HS, EYBL and all-star circuit days.

While I do not think Anthony is not a particularly skilled passer, to my untrained eyes he was a more willing passer at the lower levels compared to when he got to college.

Everything seemed to change at UNC. In very short order it seemed like Anthony decided/realized that his teammates just weren't all that capable of making shots and you could almost see his mentality change to more of a "if I don't take these shots, we have no chance to win this game because passing to these guys is going to result in a worse shot than I can just put up myself."

Unfortunately for Anthony he just wasn't capable of being that rising tide that lifted all boats. His efficiency cratered. The team really struggled. He got injured and everything just snowballed into the mess it became.

About how many games in do you think he realized this? Because from my untrained eye it appears he either thought that from before Game 1 or he never thought that at all and is now using it as a convenient excuse.

I've heard UNC has a good coach.
I'd assume he was directing Cole to play this way, otherwise he wouldn't be on the court.

[Knightro]

About how many games in do you think he realized this? Because from my untrained eye it appears he either thought that from before Game 1 or he never thought that at all and is now using it as a convenient excuse.

Game 1 was one of Anthony's best games

[Skin]

About how many games in do you think he realized this? Because from my untrained eye it appears he either thought that from before Game 1 or he never thought that at all and is now using it as a convenient excuse.

Game 1 was one of Anthony's best games

Yeah he took 24 shots right off the bat. 11 3PTA.

So he knew right away that his teammates sucked? Your excuse for him has nothing to do with how well he played or didn't play. Feel free to answer my question on how you think he developed this so called knowledge that he thought his teammates sucked so was forced to play hero ball.

Or just admit that it's just a hopeful excuse.

I want to be hopeful that he'll be good too, but let's not make up stuff. He came to UNC as the big star, none of the other top recruits wanted to follow him, he had the green light to do whatever he wanted and he showed that he's more about himself than the team.

[JBSouthpaw]

About how many games in do you think he realized this? Because from my untrained eye it appears he either thought that from before Game 1 or he never thought that at all and is now using it as a convenient excuse.

Game 1 was one of Anthony's best games

Yeah he took 24 shots right off the bat. 11 3PTA.

So he knew right away that his teammates sucked? Your excuse for him has nothing to do with how well he played or didn't play. Feel free to answer my question on how you think he developed this so called knowledge that he thought his teammates sucked so was forced to play hero ball.

Or just admit that it's just a hopeful excuse.

I want to be hopeful that he'll be good too, but let's not make up stuff. He came to UNC as the big star, none of the other top recruits wanted to follow him, he had the green light to do whatever he wanted and he showed that he's more about himself than the team.

That is YOUR narrative, not that UNC's team. Let's see what his is here.

[OrlChamps2030]

I think some fans are setting themselves up for disappointment if they think Cole will be an upgrade over DJ year 1.

Cole definitely has some shot creation potential, but I expect him to really struggle at times. I’m a bit worried that if he falls out of favor with Clifford early, he could end up getting pushed pretty far down the rotation

[Knightro]

Yeah he took 24 shots right off the bat. 11 3PTA.

So he knew right away that his teammates sucked? Your excuse for him has nothing to do with how well he played or didn't play. Feel free to answer my question on how you think he developed this so called knowledge that he thought his teammates sucked so was forced to play hero ball.

Or just admit that it's just a hopeful excuse.

I want to be hopeful that he'll be good too, but let's not make up stuff. He came to UNC as the big star, none of the other top recruits wanted to follow him, he had the green light to do whatever he wanted and he showed that he's more about himself than the team.

You do realize that citing the first game doesn't actually back up your point, right?

Anthony made 50% of his shots in that game which UNC won. His teammates combined to shoot 42% for the game.

There are many other games, including several right after the first one, that actually do back up your point. But the first one backs up my point.

[SOUL]

It's a bit of a silly spat. We're worried about a rookie taking TOO many shots? You know that isn't going to happen on the Magic. Especially with a team with a lot of veterans on it and a coach like Clifford. If anything, it might make Cole take and look for more efficient shots. If we were a team like Philadelphia when MCW was there then it would be a potential issue.

[Knightro]

I think some fans are setting themselves up for disappointment if they think Cole will be an upgrade over DJ year 1.

Cole definitely has some shot creation potential, but I expect him to really struggle at times. I’m a bit worried that if he falls out of favor with Clifford early, he could end up getting pushed pretty far down the rotation

Oh there's no doubt he's going to struggle. Most rookies are bad and he was bad in college. I expect a rough transition to start out.

I'm hopeful he can flash some legitimate shot creation ability this year, but I wouldn't be shocked if he had a negative BPM this season.

[Skin]

Yeah he took 24 shots right off the bat. 11 3PTA.

So he knew right away that his teammates sucked? Your excuse for him has nothing to do with how well he played or didn't play. Feel free to answer my question on how you think he developed this so called knowledge that he thought his teammates sucked so was forced to play hero ball.

Or just admit that it's just a hopeful excuse.

I want to be hopeful that he'll be good too, but let's not make up stuff. He came to UNC as the big star, none of the other top recruits wanted to follow him, he had the green light to do whatever he wanted and he showed that he's more about himself than the team.

You do realize that citing the first game doesn't actually back up your point, right?

Anthony made 50% of his shots in that game which UNC won. His teammates combined to shoot 42% for the game.

There are many other games, including several right after the first one, that actually do back up your point. But the first one backs up my point.

His effectiveness of the 1st game is besides the point. The fact that he took that many shots unconsciously shows it's in his mindset... it's not because "he didn't trust his teammates"... a point you were trying to stress.

Him using "I had bad teammates" as an excuse it just distasteful. I've NEVER ever heard that being an excuse for other prospects.

[Skin]

It's a bit of a silly spat. We're worried about a rookie taking TOO many shots? You know that isn't going to happen on the Magic. Especially with a team with a lot of veterans on it and a coach like Clifford. If anything, it might make Cole take and look for more efficient shots. If we were a team like Philadelphia when MCW was there then it would be a potential issue.

Or maybe he's gonna see the way we shoot and then "not trust his teammates".

[Knightro]

His effectiveness of the 1st game is besides the point. The fact that he took that many shots unconsciously shows it's in his mindset... it's not because "he didn't trust his teammates"... a point you were trying to stress.

Him using "I had bad teammates" as an excuse it just distasteful. I've NEVER ever heard that being an excuse for other prospects.

I'm not saying Anthony's teammates were the only reason Anthony played poorly. Hell, I'm not even saying his teammates were *any* reason why Anthony played poorly.

I'm just sharing factual information.

Anthony's teammates at North Carolina shot below 30% from three combined. That is a fact.

Anthony shared the court with two non-shooting big men who almost never attempted shots outside the paint offensively - just 7 combined 3PTA from their starting PF and C. That is a fact.

Anthony did not play in a heavy ball screen offense. North Carolina ranked 306th in the country in pick-and-roll sets finished by passes or shots from the ballhandler. That is a fact.

Does that explain all of Anthony's struggles? Of course not. He played very poorly and obviously was not good enough to raise the play of those around him either.

But it's absolutely something that needs to be factored into his evaluation.