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Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2

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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#381 » by Knightro » Wed May 12, 2021 1:05 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Can somebody explain to me what makes Wagner and Giddey top 10 lottery picks but Jalen Johnson not?


Jalen Johnson is a lottery pick from a pure talent perspective.

The quitting thing is kind of scary though because it's not his first incident.

He quit on IMG Academy in high school because he had issues with the coaching staff and then he followed that up by quitting on Duke because of issues with the coaching staff.

No, he doesn't necessarily owe Duke anything, but taking your ball and going home when you things aren't going well twice in two years is certainly cause for pause.
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#382 » by jonbob17 » Wed May 12, 2021 2:31 pm

Xatticus wrote:
Ziaire Williams is one that I'd avoid. He is the classic long, tall, smooth, and ineffectual prospect. They look great until you watch them play basketball and realize that none of their tools translate on the floor. I've seen almost no highlights of him at the rim. Only 24% of his field goal attempts came at the rim and he was very poor at finishing those (53%). If he can't get to the rim in college, it will never happen in the NBA. He has a very high turnover rate. He moves alright, but he pulls up at the first opportunity he gets to do so, which yields a lot of long, low-percentage shots. He's doing the defense's job for them. I've just learned over the years that this sort of prospect pretty much never pays off. He shouldn't be entering this year's draft and he wouldn't be getting any attention if he wasn't so highly regarded coming out of high school.



His shot looks good and he has size and length and plays the position hardest to find good players. I have a hard time writing off one's prep career over 20 college games, particularly in this strange year.

Not finishing at the rim is a red flag, but that is teachable and can be somewhat improved with weight training.

The thing with all these high end prospects. They are all young, with a year of a college/pro experience under their belt. The draft has been a crap shoot for a long time, and if you can find attributes like Williams has in the middle of the first round or Boston at the top of the 2nd you got to roll the dice, knowing that it is unlikely to pay off, but if it does, you get a huge boost in surplus talent and output.

Give me a 10% chance at a good starter over a 70% chance of a back of the rotation guy every time. Unless, you are a good team in need of depth, and maybe even then
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#383 » by pepe1991 » Wed May 12, 2021 4:09 pm

Knightro wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Can somebody explain to me what makes Wagner and Giddey top 10 lottery picks but Jalen Johnson not?


Jalen Johnson is a lottery pick from a pure talent perspective.

The quitting thing is kind of scary though because it's not his first incident.

He quit on IMG Academy in high school because he had issues with the coaching staff and then he followed that up by quitting on Duke because of issues with the coaching staff.

No, he doesn't necessarily owe Duke anything, but taking your ball and going home when you things aren't going well twice in two years is certainly cause for pause.


That's fair but i'm not stressing all that much about his decisions prior getting real money. In hindsight he probably should have went to G league in first place but whatever.
If i'm having Bulls pick and it's 8th for example, and with my pick i picked Suggs , Cade or Green, i'm going home with Johnson and betting on his raw talent.

I just can't talk myself into Barnes, Mitchell ;Wagner, Giddey... They all to me look like career bench players.
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#384 » by Knightro » Wed May 12, 2021 4:27 pm

pepe1991 wrote:That's fair but i'm not stressing all that much about his decisions prior getting real money. In hindsight he probably should have went to G league in first place but whatever.
If i'm having Bulls pick and it's 8th for example, and with my pick i picked Suggs , Cade or Green, i'm going home with Johnson and betting on his raw talent.

I just can't talk myself into Barnes, Mitchell ;Wagner, Giddey... They all to me look like career bench players.


I think it's certainly arguable that Jalen Johnson had the best individual single game of any college draft prospect this year.

24 PTS, 16 REB, 7 AST, 2 STL, 4 BLK, 0 TO on 8-15 FG, 1-1 3PT, 7-10 FT in 33 minutes against Pitt.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/2021-01-19-21-pittsburgh.html
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#385 » by pepe1991 » Wed May 12, 2021 4:34 pm

Knightro wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:That's fair but i'm not stressing all that much about his decisions prior getting real money. In hindsight he probably should have went to G league in first place but whatever.
If i'm having Bulls pick and it's 8th for example, and with my pick i picked Suggs , Cade or Green, i'm going home with Johnson and betting on his raw talent.

I just can't talk myself into Barnes, Mitchell ;Wagner, Giddey... They all to me look like career bench players.


I think it's certainly arguable that Jalen Johnson had the best individual single game of any college draft prospect this year.

24 PTS, 16 REB, 7 AST, 2 STL, 4 BLK, 0 TO on 8-15 FG, 1-1 3PT, 7-10 FT in 33 minutes against Pitt.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/2021-01-19-21-pittsburgh.html


First game of his career 19 points, 19 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 blocks... 100% FG ( 8-8) . Ugly 7 turnovers but whatever.

I think he has incredible upside. 6'9 , versitale, athletic players with some sort of jumpshot simply don't grow on threes.

I'm sucker for 6'8 players that have shooting upside, that explains why last year i wanted Bey or Nesmith. i still think Nesmith can turn into good player... last few games he is starting to play better. ( and i know Nesmith isn't 6'8 :lol: )
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#386 » by Xatticus » Wed May 12, 2021 5:36 pm

jonbob17 wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
Ziaire Williams is one that I'd avoid. He is the classic long, tall, smooth, and ineffectual prospect. They look great until you watch them play basketball and realize that none of their tools translate on the floor. I've seen almost no highlights of him at the rim. Only 24% of his field goal attempts came at the rim and he was very poor at finishing those (53%). If he can't get to the rim in college, it will never happen in the NBA. He has a very high turnover rate. He moves alright, but he pulls up at the first opportunity he gets to do so, which yields a lot of long, low-percentage shots. He's doing the defense's job for them. I've just learned over the years that this sort of prospect pretty much never pays off. He shouldn't be entering this year's draft and he wouldn't be getting any attention if he wasn't so highly regarded coming out of high school.



His shot looks good and he has size and length and plays the position hardest to find good players. I have a hard time writing off one's prep career over 20 college games, particularly in this strange year.

Not finishing at the rim is a red flag, but that is teachable and can be somewhat improved with weight training.

The thing with all these high end prospects. They are all young, with a year of a college/pro experience under their belt. The draft has been a crap shoot for a long time, and if you can find attributes like Williams has in the middle of the first round or Boston at the top of the 2nd you got to roll the dice, knowing that it is unlikely to pay off, but if it does, you get a huge boost in surplus talent and output.

Give me a 10% chance at a good starter over a 70% chance of a back of the rotation guy every time. Unless, you are a good team in need of depth, and maybe even then


It's not just that he is a poor finisher at the rim. He doesn't even try to get there. Only 24% of his shots came at the rim. That's very low, especially for someone with his height and athleticism. What's the point of having the physical attributes if you aren't going to use them? He seems to despise contact entirely. Nobody is efficient enough on pull-up jumpers for that to carry their offense. High volume scorers that take a lot of them generally bolster their efficiency with cheap baskets and free throws. He just pulls up every time he has an inch of space. That's all he does. He doesn't generate good shots, he just takes bad ones. That's Ron Mercer or Kevin Knox.
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#387 » by Xatticus » Wed May 12, 2021 5:44 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Knightro wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:That's fair but i'm not stressing all that much about his decisions prior getting real money. In hindsight he probably should have went to G league in first place but whatever.
If i'm having Bulls pick and it's 8th for example, and with my pick i picked Suggs , Cade or Green, i'm going home with Johnson and betting on his raw talent.

I just can't talk myself into Barnes, Mitchell ;Wagner, Giddey... They all to me look like career bench players.


I think it's certainly arguable that Jalen Johnson had the best individual single game of any college draft prospect this year.

24 PTS, 16 REB, 7 AST, 2 STL, 4 BLK, 0 TO on 8-15 FG, 1-1 3PT, 7-10 FT in 33 minutes against Pitt.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/2021-01-19-21-pittsburgh.html


First game of his career 19 points, 19 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 blocks... 100% FG ( 8-8) . Ugly 7 turnovers but whatever.

I think he has incredible upside. 6'9 , versitale, athletic players with some sort of jumpshot simply don't grow on threes.

I'm sucker for 6'8 players that have shooting upside, that explains why last year i wanted Bey or Nesmith. i still think Nesmith can turn into good player... last few games he is starting to play better. ( and i know Nesmith isn't 6'8 :lol: )


Does he have shooting upside though? He was 8 of 18 on threes. That's a really small sample. He hit 63% of his free throws. He didn't hit his threes or free throws in high school. There aren't many players in this draft that have good shooting profiles. Those that do are just really limited players overall. I wouldn't have a big issue with Johnson, but I see him as more of a Harkless or Aaron Gordon type of prospect.
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#388 » by RookieStar » Wed May 12, 2021 8:45 pm

Bensational wrote:
RookieStar wrote:
Knightro wrote:
I mean that's the one major drawback to Şengün IMO. He pretty much has good power forward size - rumored to be 6'9" 245 lbs with a 7'0" wingspan - but a center's game both offensively and defensively.

Offensively, I'm pretty confident he's going to end up being really good. His hands are outstanding. His touch inside 15 feet is really great. He is an advanced passer for as young as he is. The shooting from 3 isn't there yet, but his FT stroke is pure and I don't see any reason why he won't extend the range.

Defense is the big question mark. It doesn't seem like big enough or long enough to be a rim protector, but he's 2nd in his league in blocks and gets a ton of steals too so he clearly has some instincts and timing. At the same time he's never defended the perimeter at all, so to ask him to try and do that against NBA talent seems like a recipe for disaster.

I like him a lot all things considered.


People compare him to a shorter Sabonis, but why not a shorter Kanter?

Also I really think he is one of those players who'se stock will rise and fall greatly depending on the combine measurements. Some guys can get away with being an inch shorter, vertical not as high or wingspan shorter than expected because of other areas like shooting and ball handling skill.


From what I've seen of Sengun, I would say he has more in common with Jokic and Zion than he does with Kanter or Sabonis. He's not an athletic freak like Zion, but for a guy his size he can really get up and once he's up nothing can stop that kind of inertia. Then on the floor, his handles, footwork, vision and patience are closer to Jokic's style of game.

I'm not saying he's in their tier, just that his game seems to share more in common with them, than it does Kanter/Sabonis.


Alright, I don't watch his regular games to form a proper evaluation on him from my standpoint. So I'll take the viewpoint of you guys who did ( you all did watch regular games right? not just YT highlights? lol) as I do to all. So IF our FO does pick him in the 2nd frp choice we have, then I trust them that they did their due diligence. I think they earned a little leeway in the draft when they picked the JI, Cole ,Chuma and ( didnt draft but pursued for ) RJ.
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#389 » by RookieStar » Wed May 12, 2021 9:04 pm

Xatticus wrote:
jonbob17 wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
Ziaire Williams is one that I'd avoid. He is the classic long, tall, smooth, and ineffectual prospect. They look great until you watch them play basketball and realize that none of their tools translate on the floor. I've seen almost no highlights of him at the rim. Only 24% of his field goal attempts came at the rim and he was very poor at finishing those (53%). If he can't get to the rim in college, it will never happen in the NBA. He has a very high turnover rate. He moves alright, but he pulls up at the first opportunity he gets to do so, which yields a lot of long, low-percentage shots. He's doing the defense's job for them. I've just learned over the years that this sort of prospect pretty much never pays off. He shouldn't be entering this year's draft and he wouldn't be getting any attention if he wasn't so highly regarded coming out of high school.



His shot looks good and he has size and length and plays the position hardest to find good players. I have a hard time writing off one's prep career over 20 college games, particularly in this strange year.

Not finishing at the rim is a red flag, but that is teachable and can be somewhat improved with weight training.

The thing with all these high end prospects. They are all young, with a year of a college/pro experience under their belt. The draft has been a crap shoot for a long time, and if you can find attributes like Williams has in the middle of the first round or Boston at the top of the 2nd you got to roll the dice, knowing that it is unlikely to pay off, but if it does, you get a huge boost in surplus talent and output.

Give me a 10% chance at a good starter over a 70% chance of a back of the rotation guy every time. Unless, you are a good team in need of depth, and maybe even then


It's not just that he is a poor finisher at the rim. He doesn't even try to get there. Only 24% of his shots came at the rim. That's very low, especially for someone with his height and athleticism. What's the point of having the physical attributes if you aren't going to use them? He seems to despise contact entirely. Nobody is efficient enough on pull-up jumpers for that to carry their offense. High volume scorers that take a lot of them generally bolster their efficiency with cheap baskets and free throws. He just pulls up every time he has an inch of space. That's all he does. He doesn't generate good shots, he just takes bad ones. That's Ron Mercer or Kevin Knox.


Hi you two.. I understand both of your perspectives on Zaire as much as anyone. However, you both (pro and con) did not give proper context to him as well. He had a major bike/motorcycle ( I forgot) accident that sidelined him pre-NCAA season thus he missed a lot of practices. When he was able to suit up, he had death in the family due to covid that again sidelined him so he could return home I think. Then when he returned, the NCAA rules on covid/quarantine again isolated and sidelined him from practices and games.. then after that, a lot of cancellations happened ( as Im sure you were aware of what happened with the NCAA games last season).

So yeah, hard for me to properly judge a player with all that factors attached.
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#390 » by RookieStar » Wed May 12, 2021 9:14 pm

Knightro wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Can somebody explain to me what makes Wagner and Giddey top 10 lottery picks but Jalen Johnson not?


Jalen Johnson is a lottery pick from a pure talent perspective.

The quitting thing is kind of scary though because it's not his first incident.

He quit on IMG Academy in high school because he had issues with the coaching staff and then he followed that up by quitting on Duke because of issues with the coaching staff.

No, he doesn't necessarily owe Duke anything, but taking your ball and going home when you things aren't going well twice in two years is certainly cause for pause.


Agree.. based on talent alone he is a top 8 lotto pick. But like Wiggins, Mario , and other you have to question what is up between the ears. 3 high schools before your senior year? Is it personality/attitude or bad handlers or what?

Then at Duke.. there were talks that he quit on the team BEFORE Christmas and the team was ok with it, in fact they played better team-wise.. even made a "supposedly" fake injury for him so all parties could save face. Then flip-flopped and decided to play again. Supposedly it was a WTF moment for a lot of players and coaches but no problem.. then a month or 2 later he decided to quit AGAIN???

And if you believed the talk, he didn't handle the bench-role well. He is not a SF, he is a PF in college and as sure heck (unless he improved his agility and speed) he is a PF in the NBA as well. Supposedly he was benched because he could not or would not bang down low and of course, Hurt just did not have the body to do so. Thus, they went with Mark Williams and those 3 could not share time together on the floor.

Anyway, personality, mindset, attitude.Those need to be answered before you even pick him at a high pick.
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#391 » by Knightro » Thu May 13, 2021 5:19 pm

Read on Twitter


Şengün wins MVP of the ING Basketbol Süper Ligi in Turkey.
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#392 » by CZ Eddie » Thu May 13, 2021 6:15 pm

Knightro wrote:
Read on Twitter


Şengün wins MVP of the ING Basketbol Süper Ligi in Turkey.


There is a different video of him where every single play the announcer yells "Ahlparaiiin SANGOooooooooo".
And I just want to click the close button on him every time.
It would be neat to hear MMA's Bruce Buffer call out this guys name just to see how it would compare.
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#393 » by CZ Eddie » Thu May 13, 2021 6:18 pm

Can you imagine if we got Jalen Green *and* Alperen Şengün in this draft?!?!
This team would be shown non-stop every day on ESPN highlight reels.
Mix in some Cole Train and what a fun team to watch.
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#394 » by zaymon » Thu May 13, 2021 7:26 pm

Knightro wrote:
Read on Twitter


Şengün wins MVP of the ING Basketbol Süper Ligi in Turkey.


I think this is a 4 + 3 player draft and Kuminga is not one of them. Sengun has some real Sabonis premium upside. Worst case he could be the engine of our bench,
My money is on Banchero going number 1 !
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#395 » by CZ Eddie » Fri May 14, 2021 2:06 am

It was just seven months ago that ESPN had Suggs as the projected #18 pick.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30383235/nba-mock-draft-loaded-no-1-pick-race-new-top-60

Interesting to see some names high on that list that I don't recognize.
The mock draft did not age super well.

BJ Boston fell way down the list after his teammate died in the car accident.
Might be a good SG pickup in the second round if he's still available.
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#396 » by RookieStar » Fri May 14, 2021 2:36 am

CZ Eddie wrote:It was just seven months ago that ESPN had Suggs as the projected #18 pick.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30383235/nba-mock-draft-loaded-no-1-pick-race-new-top-60

Interesting to see some names high on that list that I don't recognize.
The mock draft did not age super well.

BJ Boston fell way down the list after his teammate died in the car accident.
Might be a good SG pickup in the second round if he's still available.


BJ fell down way before that. He fell down after his majority games exposed his flaws especially his cluelessness.
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#397 » by thelead » Fri May 14, 2021 2:58 am

Green or Cade with Sengun would be a perfect draft for us
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#398 » by Knightro » Fri May 14, 2021 3:13 am

thelead wrote:Green or Cade with Sengun would be a perfect draft for us


This is increasingly where I’m at. Although I’d throw Suggs into that Cunningham/Green mix too.
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#399 » by KillMonger » Fri May 14, 2021 3:15 am

Knightro wrote:
Read on Twitter


Şengün wins MVP of the ING Basketbol Süper Ligi in Turkey.

i Don't know how anyone can think this isn't impressive.....to be doing what he's doing against grown men? he might be able to contribute right away to a team
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Re: Official 2021 NBA Draft Thread Part 2 

Post#400 » by tiderulz » Fri May 14, 2021 3:15 am

zaymon wrote:
Knightro wrote:
Read on Twitter


Şengün wins MVP of the ING Basketbol Süper Ligi in Turkey.


I think this is a 4 + 3 player draft and Kuminga is not one of them. Sengun has some real Sabonis premium upside. Worst case he could be the engine of our bench,

for his height, he is barely getting his hands over the rim on any of those dunks

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