Leadership, development, and promotion

[seeingstars]

Whilst Oladipo has shown a lot of promise, I think we've been way too premature to anoint he and Vuc as the foundation of the team. We haven't done our due diligence in allowing other guys to make their mark, and it's only going to be harder to do that going forwards now that Vuc and Vic have pretty much taken on those roles. How often have you seen a star take a step back for another player this early in their careers? The only way things change from here is through player movement.

Oladipo will need to prove problematic to another players growth before we get out the pitch forks. While I agree that he has been groomed for a role that he isn't suited for, I think we need to wait for another player to really step up and then see how Oladipo reacts before we go assuming too much. If AG begins beasting, for example, and then Dipo starts showing reluctance to submit.. then we can open this discussion. A player worthy of usurping Oladipo will show it on the court regardless of what pecking order the coaches set.

Why don't you think Oladipo can be that guy? He's proven himself to be clutch as of late, he plays great on defense and hustles every play and leading by example on the later two.

[woosah]

Borrego said in his exit interview that they want more leadership qualities to emerge from both EP and Victor. They have given them the charge, now what will they do with it?

[Bensational]

Whilst Oladipo has shown a lot of promise, I think we've been way too premature to anoint he and Vuc as the foundation of the team. We haven't done our due diligence in allowing other guys to make their mark, and it's only going to be harder to do that going forwards now that Vuc and Vic have pretty much taken on those roles. How often have you seen a star take a step back for another player this early in their careers? The only way things change from here is through player movement.

Oladipo will need to prove problematic to another players growth before we get out the pitch forks. While I agree that he has been groomed for a role that he isn't suited for, I think we need to wait for another player to really step up and then see how Oladipo reacts before we go assuming too much. If AG begins beasting, for example, and then Dipo starts showing reluctance to submit.. then we can open this discussion. A player worthy of usurping Oladipo will show it on the court regardless of what pecking order the coaches set.

no pitchforks required, because Vuc, Oladipo and Tobes are our best guys right now. i completely understand why we went with them. i'm not even ruling Oladipo out. i'm just not convinced yet that any of them are our guy. i have no doubt Oladipo could be a great leader, just not sure he can be a best player.

i just would have liked the team to have shared everything around a lot more this season, and hopefully next season. it's hard to usurp when you're not getting consistent touches. look at Nicholson for example. if we had given him Vuc's role as a starting PF who's charged with 16FGAs, who knows how he would have done? I have a suspicion he wouldn't have been too far behind Vuc in terms of scoring ability, though, because Nicholson is a gifted scorer. but we never even tried that. Nicholson has been screwed around the entire time he's been here.

it just doesn't make sense to me why we'd clear out all the vets to level the playing field, only to instantly push a couple of our younger players up into those roles, and deny everyone else the chance.

[Bensational]

rcklsscognition just posted some quotes from Henny which really kind of support what I've been feeling:

Listen to Dante interview Henny in Magic Drive Time today. Bullet points:

1) Borrego is not a real candidate.

2) Thinks we need to 'recalibrate' the roles players found for themselves this season.

3) Loves Tobias.

4) Goal for next season is to be a low lottery team (pick in the teens low)

5) Goal is to develop some on current roster into stars.


Direct quotes:

"....enhance the group we have."

"Yeah, we really believe in our guys. We believe in our young guys. We believe in the core that we're developing, and we believe in their capacity to develop over the next couple of years. That's a big part of the vision of the team, and the plan, and....we feel pretty strong that these guys will get better year after year.

"We have a half dozen games, maybe 10, where we competed with some of the best teams in the league, and beat some. But, on the other hand, we weren't able to gain traction and beat teams we maybe should have had an easier time beating.....we're trying to wrap our heads around how we push and put our young players in positions to close out in these situations."

On Development:

"I think we collectively need to continue to learn how to play as a unit. Whether it was our youth, or guys trying to find their way in the league, first, if we can re-calibrate that, and really get back to learning how to play off each other, with each other, how to play more cohesive and unified, I think that will potentially be a big step for us in development.

That says, to me, more team play and less force-feeding of Vuc and Dipo. More ball movement. More Spurs/Hawks style play.

And I love that.

[woosah]

rcklsscognition just posted some quotes from Henny which really kind of support what I've been feeling:

Listen to Dante interview Henny in Magic Drive Time today. Bullet points:

1) Borrego is not a real candidate.

2) Thinks we need to 'recalibrate' the roles players found for themselves this season.

3) Loves Tobias.

4) Goal for next season is to be a low lottery team (pick in the teens low)

5) Goal is to develop some on current roster into stars.


Direct quotes:

"....enhance the group we have."

"Yeah, we really believe in our guys. We believe in our young guys. We believe in the core that we're developing, and we believe in their capacity to develop over the next couple of years. That's a big part of the vision of the team, and the plan, and....we feel pretty strong that these guys will get better year after year.

"We have a half dozen games, maybe 10, where we competed with some of the best teams in the league, and beat some. But, on the other hand, we weren't able to gain traction and beat teams we maybe should have had an easier time beating.....we're trying to wrap our heads around how we push and put our young players in positions to close out in these situations."

On Development:

"I think we collectively need to continue to learn how to play as a unit. Whether it was our youth, or guys trying to find their way in the league, first, if we can re-calibrate that, and really get back to learning how to play off each other, with each other, how to play more cohesive and unified, I think that will potentially be a big step for us in development.

That says, to me, more team play and less force-feeding of Vuc and Dipo. More ball movement. More Spurs/Hawks style play.

And I love that.

yep, awesome. I just didn't feel that anything was established and things are in flux so this makes sense, especially with new leadership coming in.

I also found it interesting that management seems to be encouraging the guys to spend time together over the break and develop off court chemistry. Elf spoke of it today saying he would be getting the guys together for things as their schedule permits. We're working on a stew!

[eyriq]

The average 22 year old guard averages 11/3/4 on 44/29/77 shooting with an average PER of 14.27

Oladipo averaged 18/4/4 on 44/34/82 shooting with a 15.9 PER

Averages go up until they peak around the age of 28. I think Oladipo was featured because he deserves to be. He is easily an above average guard prospect whose shooting efficiency is overly and inaccurately criticized.

The average 22 year old forward averages 12/6/2 on 47/20/72 shooting with a 14.97 PER

Tobias averaged 17/6/2 on 47/37/79 shooting with a 16.7 PER

Harris is projecting to be an elite 3 point shooting forward should these numbers hold up, and I'm not sure this is really part of the narrative when we discuss him. So while he is probably an otherwise average forward his shooting boosts him over the pack. The huge downside is his poor defense, while this is a strength of Oladipo's.

As for Vuvevic, he is easily elite given his age. INSANELY elite.

Average 24 year old center 11/7/1 on 51/14/67 shooting with a 15.46 PER

Vucevic 19/11/2 on 52/33/75 shooting with a 21.5 PER

He is a stretch center with elite rebounding and good scoring efficiency. So, in retrospect, of course we focused on Vucevic and Oladipo with a heavy side of Harris.

C'mon man, you're comparing the numbers of average players to players who have been handed lead roles. Average players don't get 36 minutes and 14-16fgas a game, so comparing those numbers just doesn't fly.

Look at Dipo compared to other SGs who were given large roles at the same age... He's middle of the pack when in comparison to those guys. Better than Beal (who's actually younger), but still doesn't have the shooting prowess of Klay.

Look at Harris compared to other 22 year old SFs... 3rd in FGAs, 3rd in PPG, but 2nd last in PER and TS%.

Let's look at Vuc compared to some other C's that have been given large roles at the same age... He's still only the 4th highest scorer, despite having the 2nd most FGAs, and he's 2nd last in PER. And there's only one-two of those guys who's been a significant impact player on a contending team.

Of course these guys look elite compared to the scrubs of the league, but when you look at them compared to the other above average players, then they certainly start to fall into the middle of that pack. They're not looking like the real difference makers you'd want them to be if they were going to be your stars.

I mean, what do Payton's numbers look like to the average 20 year old PG? What do AG's PER36 numbers look like compared to the average 19 year old SF? Even Fournier's PER36 numbers are above the average 22 year old numbers you posted.

Fair points. Just as an FYI, the data I pulled for these averages is from B-R and for all seasons since the 79-80 season (yes it took a long time to copy and paste all that into an excel LOL)

The average 22 year old guard and forward logged 27 MPG, so DRSD is essentially correct that this is your typical top of the rotation player. I do think pointing out that Harris and Oladipo are above average on the developmental curve is relevant. However, I'm interested to see how they stack up against other guards and forwards that average say more than 30 MPG (the sample is already filtered for total minutes played).

So, when filtered for 30 MPG or more

Guards: Avg MPG 35 with 17/4/6 on 45/31/78 shooting with a 16.56 PER

Forwards: Avg MPG 35 with 18/8/2 on 48/23/74 with a 17.58 PER

There have been 78 Forward seasons that meet that criteria, and 75 Guard seasons that meet that criteria.

Code: Select all

Allen Iverson
Andre Iguodala
Anfernee Hardaway
Baron Davis
Ben Gordon
Brandon Jennings
Brandon Knight
Brandon Roy
Brevin Knight
Chauncey Billups
Chris Paul
Clyde Drexler*
Damian Lillard
Damon Stoudamire
Darrell Griffith
Delonte West
DeMar DeRozan
Deron Williams
Derrick Rose
DeShawn Stevenson
Dwyane Wade
Eric Gordon
Gilbert Arenas
Hersey Hawkins
Isaiah Rider
Isiah Thomas*
James Harden
Jason Kidd
Jason Richardson
Jerry Stackhouse
Joe Johnson
Josh Childress
Jrue Holiday
Kelvin Ransey
Kemba Walker
Kenny Anderson
Kenny Smith
Kerry Kittles
Kevin Johnson
Klay Thompson
Kobe Bryant
Kyrie Irving
Latrell Sprewell
Magic Johnson*
Mario Chalmers
Mark Jackson
Mark Macon
Michael Carter-Williams
Michael Finley
Mike Bibby
Mike Conley
Monta Ellis
Nick Van Exel
O.J. Mayo
Rajon Rondo
Ray Allen
Raymond Felton
Reggie Theus
Richard Hamilton
Rodney Stuckey
Ron Mercer
Russell Westbrook
Stephen Curry
Stephon Marbury
Steve Francis
T.J. Ford
Tony Parker
Travis Mays
Trey Burke
Tyreke Evans
Tyus Edney
Vern Fleming
Victor Oladipo
Vince Carter
Willie Anderson


Code: Select all

Al Harrington
Amar'e Stoudemire
Andrei Kirilenko
Antoine Walker
Antonio McDyess
Billy Owens
Blake Griffin
Buck Williams
Carlos Boozer
Carmelo Anthony
Caron Butler
Cedric Henderson
Charles Barkley*
Chris Bosh
Chuck Person
Clarence Weatherspoon
Clark Kellogg
Cliff Robinson
Danilo Gallinari
Dave Greenwood
Derrick Favors
Derrick McKey
Dirk Nowitzki
Elton Brand
Gerald Wallace
Glen Rice
Glenn Robinson
Grant Hill
Greg Monroe
J.R. Reid
Jamal Mashburn
Jay Vincent
Jeff Green
Jermaine O'Neal
Josh Smith
Juwan Howard
Karl Malone*
Keith Van Horn
Kelly Tripucka
Kevin Durant
Kevin Garnett
Kevin Love
Khris Middleton
LaMarcus Aldridge
Landry Fields
LaPhonso Ellis
Larry Johnson
LeBron James
Lionel Simmons
Lorenzen Wright
Luol Deng
Marvin Williams
Maurice Taylor
Michael Beasley
Michael Brooks
Mike Miller
Mike O'Koren
Nicolas Batum
Pau Gasol
Paul George
Paul Pierce
Rashard Lewis
Richard Jefferson
Rudy Gay
Sean Elliott
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Shawn Marion
Terry Cummings
Tim Duncan
Tobias Harris
Tom Chambers
Tracy McGrady
Tristan Thompson
Troy Murphy
Vin Baker
Wilson Chandler
Xavier McDaniel
Zach Randolph


[Bensational]

The average 22 year old guard averages 11/3/4 on 44/29/77 shooting with an average PER of 14.27

Oladipo averaged 18/4/4 on 44/34/82 shooting with a 15.9 PER

Averages go up until they peak around the age of 28. I think Oladipo was featured because he deserves to be. He is easily an above average guard prospect whose shooting efficiency is overly and inaccurately criticized.

The average 22 year old forward averages 12/6/2 on 47/20/72 shooting with a 14.97 PER

Tobias averaged 17/6/2 on 47/37/79 shooting with a 16.7 PER

Harris is projecting to be an elite 3 point shooting forward should these numbers hold up, and I'm not sure this is really part of the narrative when we discuss him. So while he is probably an otherwise average forward his shooting boosts him over the pack. The huge downside is his poor defense, while this is a strength of Oladipo's.

As for Vuvevic, he is easily elite given his age. INSANELY elite.

Average 24 year old center 11/7/1 on 51/14/67 shooting with a 15.46 PER

Vucevic 19/11/2 on 52/33/75 shooting with a 21.5 PER

He is a stretch center with elite rebounding and good scoring efficiency. So, in retrospect, of course we focused on Vucevic and Oladipo with a heavy side of Harris.

C'mon man, you're comparing the numbers of average players to players who have been handed lead roles. Average players don't get 36 minutes and 14-16fgas a game, so comparing those numbers just doesn't fly.

Look at Dipo compared to other SGs who were given large roles at the same age... He's middle of the pack when in comparison to those guys. Better than Beal (who's actually younger), but still doesn't have the shooting prowess of Klay.

Look at Harris compared to other 22 year old SFs... 3rd in FGAs, 3rd in PPG, but 2nd last in PER and TS%.

Let's look at Vuc compared to some other C's that have been given large roles at the same age... He's still only the 4th highest scorer, despite having the 2nd most FGAs, and he's 2nd last in PER. And there's only one-two of those guys who's been a significant impact player on a contending team.

Of course these guys look elite compared to the scrubs of the league, but when you look at them compared to the other above average players, then they certainly start to fall into the middle of that pack. They're not looking like the real difference makers you'd want them to be if they were going to be your stars.

I mean, what do Payton's numbers look like to the average 20 year old PG? What do AG's PER36 numbers look like compared to the average 19 year old SF? Even Fournier's PER36 numbers are above the average 22 year old numbers you posted.

Fair points. Just as an FYI, the data I pulled for these averages is from B-R and for all seasons since the 79-80 season (yes it took a long time to copy and paste all that into an excel LOL)

The average 22 year old guard and forward logged 27 MPG, so DRSD is essentially correct that this is your typical top of the rotation player. I do think pointing out that Harris and Oladipo are above average on the developmental curve is relevant. However, I'm interested to see how they stack up against other guards and forwards that average say more than 30 MPG (the sample is already filtered for total minutes played).

So, when filtered for 30 MPG or more

Guards: Avg MPG 35 with 17/4/6 on 45/31/78 shooting with a 16.56 PER

Forwards: Avg MPG 35 with 18/8/2 on 48/23/74 with a 17.58 PER

There have been 78 Forward seasons that meet that criteria, and 75 Guard seasons that meet that criteria.

Code: Select all

Allen Iverson
Andre Iguodala
Anfernee Hardaway
Baron Davis
Ben Gordon
Brandon Jennings
Brandon Knight
Brandon Roy
Brevin Knight
Chauncey Billups
Chris Paul
Clyde Drexler*
Damian Lillard
Damon Stoudamire
Darrell Griffith
Delonte West
DeMar DeRozan
Deron Williams
Derrick Rose
DeShawn Stevenson
Dwyane Wade
Eric Gordon
Gilbert Arenas
Hersey Hawkins
Isaiah Rider
Isiah Thomas*
James Harden
Jason Kidd
Jason Richardson
Jerry Stackhouse
Joe Johnson
Josh Childress
Jrue Holiday
Kelvin Ransey
Kemba Walker
Kenny Anderson
Kenny Smith
Kerry Kittles
Kevin Johnson
Klay Thompson
Kobe Bryant
Kyrie Irving
Latrell Sprewell
Magic Johnson*
Mario Chalmers
Mark Jackson
Mark Macon
Michael Carter-Williams
Michael Finley
Mike Bibby
Mike Conley
Monta Ellis
Nick Van Exel
O.J. Mayo
Rajon Rondo
Ray Allen
Raymond Felton
Reggie Theus
Richard Hamilton
Rodney Stuckey
Ron Mercer
Russell Westbrook
Stephen Curry
Stephon Marbury
Steve Francis
T.J. Ford
Tony Parker
Travis Mays
Trey Burke
Tyreke Evans
Tyus Edney
Vern Fleming
Victor Oladipo
Vince Carter
Willie Anderson


Code: Select all

Al Harrington
Amar'e Stoudemire
Andrei Kirilenko
Antoine Walker
Antonio McDyess
Billy Owens
Blake Griffin
Buck Williams
Carlos Boozer
Carmelo Anthony
Caron Butler
Cedric Henderson
Charles Barkley*
Chris Bosh
Chuck Person
Clarence Weatherspoon
Clark Kellogg
Cliff Robinson
Danilo Gallinari
Dave Greenwood
Derrick Favors
Derrick McKey
Dirk Nowitzki
Elton Brand
Gerald Wallace
Glen Rice
Glenn Robinson
Grant Hill
Greg Monroe
J.R. Reid
Jamal Mashburn
Jay Vincent
Jeff Green
Jermaine O'Neal
Josh Smith
Juwan Howard
Karl Malone*
Keith Van Horn
Kelly Tripucka
Kevin Durant
Kevin Garnett
Kevin Love
Khris Middleton
LaMarcus Aldridge
Landry Fields
LaPhonso Ellis
Larry Johnson
LeBron James
Lionel Simmons
Lorenzen Wright
Luol Deng
Marvin Williams
Maurice Taylor
Michael Beasley
Michael Brooks
Mike Miller
Mike O'Koren
Nicolas Batum
Pau Gasol
Paul George
Paul Pierce
Rashard Lewis
Richard Jefferson
Rudy Gay
Sean Elliott
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Shawn Marion
Terry Cummings
Tim Duncan
Tobias Harris
Tom Chambers
Tracy McGrady
Tristan Thompson
Troy Murphy
Vin Baker
Wilson Chandler
Xavier McDaniel
Zach Randolph


Wow man, I applaud your effort. Would be nice if B-R made it easier to download all that data in a spreadsheet for people to run their own calculations on it. They could probably get away with charging a small fee, like $1 a month, and get enough people signing up to make it worth their while.

Anyways, there's still a spectrum of average starter quality to star quality players in those lists, and I still feel like Oladipo and Harris sit in the middle right now. The true stars in those groups are already stars by this age, and I'd say the numbers are low for the amount of players who really step up into stardom beyond 23.

For me, the final conclusion comes down to the belief that I don't think any player on our team is going to break down another team and carry us to a win every single night, so we can't rely on these guys as if they were Shaq/Duncan/Lebron/Durant/etc. But any one of them could have a big game any night and certainly carry us to a win. So for now, I'd like to see us adopt more of a Spurs/Hawks style offense that's flexible enough to chase the hot hand on any given night rather than forcing everyone to fall in line behind certain players regardless of how well they're playing that night.

[tiderulz]

Whilst Oladipo has shown a lot of promise, I think we've been way too premature to anoint he and Vuc as the foundation of the team. We haven't done our due diligence in allowing other guys to make their mark, and it's only going to be harder to do that going forwards now that Vuc and Vic have pretty much taken on those roles. How often have you seen a star take a step back for another player this early in their careers? The only way things change from here is through player movement.

Oladipo will need to prove problematic to another players growth before we get out the pitch forks. While I agree that he has been groomed for a role that he isn't suited for, I think we need to wait for another player to really step up and then see how Oladipo reacts before we go assuming too much. If AG begins beasting, for example, and then Dipo starts showing reluctance to submit.. then we can open this discussion. A player worthy of usurping Oladipo will show it on the court regardless of what pecking order the coaches set.

Why don't you think Oladipo can be that guy? He's proven himself to be clutch as of late, he plays great on defense and hustles every play and leading by example on the later two.

1 - he hasnt "proven" himself clutch yet
2 - he plays defense, but it hasnt been great
3 - he goes into serious chuck mode a lot this year

[eyriq]

Wow man, I applaud your effort. Would be nice if B-R made it easier to download all that data in a spreadsheet for people to run their own calculations on it. They could probably get away with charging a small fee, like $1 a month, and get enough people signing up to make it worth their while.

Anyways, there's still a spectrum of average starter quality to star quality players in those lists, and I still feel like Oladipo and Harris sit in the middle right now. The true stars in those groups are already stars by this age, and I'd say the numbers are low for the amount of players who really step up into stardom beyond 23.

For me, the final conclusion comes down to the belief that I don't think any player on our team is going to break down another team and carry us to a win every single night, so we can't rely on these guys as if they were Shaq/Duncan/Lebron/Durant/etc. But any one of them could have a big game any night and certainly carry us to a win. So for now, I'd like to see us adopt more of a Spurs/Hawks style offense that's flexible enough to chase the hot hand on any given night rather than forcing everyone to fall in line behind certain players regardless of how well they're playing that night.

Yeah, Oladipo and Harris keep good company but don't stand out from the pack. They are pacing/trending, however you want to think of it, on a border-line allstar trajectory. I'm more optimistic about Oladipo due to his athleticism and physical tools, plus the fact that he is progressing faster given NBA experience compared to Harris (2 yrs vs 4 yrs), and the fact that he is developing similar to his close comps like Arenas and Wade. Westbrook, Rose, and Curry all looked better at 22 yrs old but Rose and Westbrook had an extra season of NBA experience under their belts, while Curry's shooting was just so advanced that it helped separate him from the pack right away.

I am still very high on Oladipo.

As for Vucevic, there have been 30 player seasons with 24 year old centers averaging 30 or more MPG while making the leader board for minutes played.

18/10/2 on 52/15/70 shooting and a 18.99 PER

Code: Select all

Al Horford
Alonzo Mourning*
Andrew Bynum
Benoit Benjamin
Brook Lopez
Bryant Reeves
David Robinson*
DeMarcus Cousins
Dwight Howard
Eddy Curry
Emeka Okafor
Hakeem Olajuwon*
Herb Williams
Jack Sikma
Jeff Ruland
Joe Barry Carroll
Kevin Duckworth
Marc Gasol
Michael Olowokandi
Moses Malone*
Nikola Vucevic
Patrick Ewing*
Ralph Sampson*
Rick Mahorn
Rony Seikaly
Shawn Bradley
Tim McCormick
Tyson Chandler
Vlade Divac
Yao Ming


[tiderulz]

I'm more optimistic about Oladipo due to his athleticism and physical tools, plus the fact that he is progressing faster given NBA experience compared to Harris (2 yrs vs 4 yrs), and the fact that he is developing similar to his close comps like Arenas and Wade. Westbrook, Rose, and Curry all looked better at 22 yrs old but Rose and Westbrook had an extra season of NBA experience under their belts, while Curry's shooting was just so advanced that it helped separate him from the pack right away.

true, but unlike Dipo, hasnt wasnt given the green light for anything for almost his first 2 years. and that is a big piece of growing.

[Neon1]

I'm more optimistic about Oladipo due to his athleticism and physical tools, plus the fact that he is progressing faster given NBA experience compared to Harris (2 yrs vs 4 yrs), and the fact that he is developing similar to his close comps like Arenas and Wade. Westbrook, Rose, and Curry all looked better at 22 yrs old but Rose and Westbrook had an extra season of NBA experience under their belts, while Curry's shooting was just so advanced that it helped separate him from the pack right away.

true, but unlike Dipo, hasnt wasnt given the green light for anything for almost his first 2 years. and that is a big piece of growing.

Since 2011-12, which is the year they BOTH entered college, Oladipo has more on court development time then Harris.

Harris NBA career didn't really start until was traded here midway through his second year. Sitting on the bench not playing a role is not more beneficial to a young players development skill wise or mentally.

Harris entered the league as a super young rookie (he was the youngest player in the NBA, just like Aaron Gordon is now), Harris was more ready as a freshman then Oladipo because Harris had a much larger role handed to him at Tennessee (29.2mpg) vs Oladipo at Indiana (18.0mpg).

Oladipo has played 152 games in a Magic uniform for a total of 5060 minutes (33.3mpg)
Harris has played 156 games in a Magic uniform for a total of 5193 minutes (33.3mpg)

They are from the same college entry class 2010-11, they are also the same age (Dipo only months older), and their development time washes out in the end, they are in the same boat. Tobias had the immediate playing time jump on Dipo to start their college career, and Oladipo got the immediate playing time jump on Tobias to start their NBA career. The playing field is even at this point.


Tobias first year in the league Harris played a total of 479 minutes. For comparison sake, Aaron Gordon played 797 minutes this season and we all know how much complaints go on about our handling of him.

Harris first year and a half in the NBA before being traded to the Magic he played a total of 804 minutes 11.4mpg. Now imagine Aaron Gordon playing only 7 minutes between now and the next years NBA trade deadline and then doing exactly what we saw Tobias doing post All Star break of next season and on after not playing for a season and a half.

Why all of our young players EXCEPT for him are given the pass on they will develop it later, I will never understand. Tobias is just as young, inexperienced and in just as early stage of his career as the other guys, but for some reason he is held to a different standard or expectation.

[Orlwillbeback]

I'm more optimistic about Oladipo due to his athleticism and physical tools, plus the fact that he is progressing faster given NBA experience compared to Harris (2 yrs vs 4 yrs), and the fact that he is developing similar to his close comps like Arenas and Wade. Westbrook, Rose, and Curry all looked better at 22 yrs old but Rose and Westbrook had an extra season of NBA experience under their belts, while Curry's shooting was just so advanced that it helped separate him from the pack right away.

true, but unlike Dipo, hasnt wasnt given the green light for anything for almost his first 2 years. and that is a big piece of growing.

Since 2011-12, which is the year they BOTH entered college, Oladipo has more on court development time then Harris.

Harris NBA career didn't really start until was traded here midway through his second year. Sitting on the bench not playing a role is not more beneficial to a young players development skill wise or mentally.

Harris entered the league as a super young rookie (he was the youngest player in the NBA, just like Aaron Gordon is now), Harris was more ready as a freshman then Oladipo because Harris had a much larger role handed to him at Tennessee (29.2mpg) vs Oladipo at Indiana (18.0mpg).

Oladipo has played 152 games in a Magic uniform for a total of 5060 minutes (33.3mpg)
Harris has played 156 games in a Magic uniform for a total of 5193 minutes (33.3mpg)

They are from the same college entry class 2010-11, they are also the same age (Dipo only months older), and their development time washes out in the end, they are in the same boat. Tobias had the immediate playing time jump on Dipo to start their college career, and Oladipo got the immediate playing time jump on Tobias to start their NBA career. The playing field is even at this point.


Tobias first year in the league Harris played a total of 479 minutes. For comparison sake, Aaron Gordon played 797 minutes this season and we all know how much complaints go on about our handling of him.

Harris first year and a half in the NBA before being traded to the Magic he played a total of 804 minutes 11.4mpg. Now imagine Aaron Gordon playing only 7 minutes between now and the next years NBA trade deadline and then doing exactly what we saw Tobias doing post All Star break of next season and on after not playing for a season and a half.

Why all of our young players EXCEPT for him are given the pass on they will develop it later, I will never understand. Tobias is just as young, inexperienced and in just as early stage of his career as the other guys, but for some reason he is held to a different standard or expectation.

PREACH

[eyriq]

I'm more optimistic about Oladipo due to his athleticism and physical tools, plus the fact that he is progressing faster given NBA experience compared to Harris (2 yrs vs 4 yrs), and the fact that he is developing similar to his close comps like Arenas and Wade. Westbrook, Rose, and Curry all looked better at 22 yrs old but Rose and Westbrook had an extra season of NBA experience under their belts, while Curry's shooting was just so advanced that it helped separate him from the pack right away.

true, but unlike Dipo, hasnt wasnt given the green light for anything for almost his first 2 years. and that is a big piece of growing.

Since 2011-12, which is the year they BOTH entered college, Oladipo has more on court development time then Harris.

Harris NBA career didn't really start until was traded here midway through his second year. Sitting on the bench not playing a role is not more beneficial to a young players development skill wise or mentally.

Harris entered the league as a super young rookie (he was the youngest player in the NBA, just like Aaron Gordon is now), Harris was more ready as a freshman then Oladipo because Harris had a much larger role handed to him at Tennessee (29.2mpg) vs Oladipo at Indiana (18.0mpg).

Oladipo has played 152 games in a Magic uniform for a total of 5060 minutes (33.3mpg)
Harris has played 156 games in a Magic uniform for a total of 5193 minutes (33.3mpg)

They are from the same college entry class 2010-11, they are also the same age (Dipo only months older), and their development time washes out in the end, they are in the same boat. Tobias had the immediate playing time jump on Dipo to start their college career, and Oladipo got the immediate playing time jump on Tobias to start their NBA career. The playing field is even at this point.


Tobias first year in the league Harris played a total of 479 minutes. For comparison sake, Aaron Gordon played 797 minutes this season and we all know how much complaints go on about our handling of him.

Harris first year and a half in the NBA before being traded to the Magic he played a total of 804 minutes 11.4mpg. Now imagine Aaron Gordon playing only 7 minutes between now and the next years NBA trade deadline and then doing exactly what we saw Tobias doing post All Star break of next season and on after not playing for a season and a half.

Why all of our young players EXCEPT for him are given the pass on they will develop it later, I will never understand. Tobias is just as young, inexperienced and in just as early stage of his career as the other guys, but for some reason he is held to a different standard or expectation.

The reason number of seasons in the NBA is a differentiator is due to access to coaches, facilities, and culture, plus the increased wealth of the player and therefore more training options.

[Orlwillbeback]

^^ lol **** argument

[tiderulz]

The reason number of seasons in the NBA is a differentiator is due to access to coaches, facilities, and culture, plus the increased wealth of the player and therefore more training options.

if told you the following:

Player A: 36 games, 27 mpg, 12 FGA/game

Player B: 41 games, 11 mpg, 4 FGA/game

which player would do you think would have developed their game more?

[eyriq]

^^ lol **** argument

1 year of development at the college level is equal to 1 year of development at the NBA level?

Edit:

Why the NBA develops players better

[Neon1]

^^ lol **** argument

1 year of development at the college level is equal to 1 year of development at the NBA level?

Edit:

Why the NBA develops players better

If both players are actually playing and getting minutes, you would have a valid point.

If that NBA player is simply sitting on the bench all year not in the rotation or getting minutes, he is NOT developing.

All he is doing is learning the NBA lifestyle and culture. You get better by PLAYING.

There is a reason people say "that kid should have stayed in college.."

[ezzzp]

The average 22 year old guard averages 11/3/4 on 44/29/77 shooting with an average PER of 14.27

Oladipo averaged 18/4/4 on 44/34/82 shooting with a 15.9 PER

Averages go up until they peak around the age of 28. I think Oladipo was featured because he deserves to be. He is easily an above average guard prospect whose shooting efficiency is overly and inaccurately criticized.

The average 22 year old forward averages 12/6/2 on 47/20/72 shooting with a 14.97 PER

Tobias averaged 17/6/2 on 47/37/79 shooting with a 16.7 PER

Harris is projecting to be an elite 3 point shooting forward should these numbers hold up, and I'm not sure this is really part of the narrative when we discuss him. So while he is probably an otherwise average forward his shooting boosts him over the pack. The huge downside is his poor defense, while this is a strength of Oladipo's.

As for Vuvevic, he is easily elite given his age. INSANELY elite.

Average 24 year old center 11/7/1 on 51/14/67 shooting with a 15.46 PER

Vucevic 19/11/2 on 52/33/75 shooting with a 21.5 PER

He is a stretch center with elite rebounding and good scoring efficiency. So, in retrospect, of course we focused on Vucevic and Oladipo with a heavy side of Harris.

On the defensive end the numbers show that the difference between Oladipo and Harris is not very much.

Victor is 2 months older than Harris. Oladipo is slightly undersized for a SG 6-4 210 but with a good wingspan 6-9; and Harris has ideal size for a SF 6-9 235 with a 6-11' wingspan. Oladipo has played 5060 minutes in NBA, Harris 5997.

• Oladipo was touted as being very good defensively coming out of college, but the NBA numbers don't really show that. His DRPM is (negative 1.67) which is 71st amongst SG's; according to 82games.com his opponent counterpart at SG has an 16.7PER and at PG his guy puts up an 18.5 PER.

• Harris who is supposed to be terrible defensively, has a DRPM of (negative 2.01) which is 72nd amongst SF's; and according to 82games.com his opponent counterpart at SF has an 14.9PER and at PF his guy puts up a 14.4PER.