What are your best Fournier trade proposals?

[pepe1991]

Nobody argues that better player would help, but nobody is proposing logical, realistic trades how to get there.
As MM said, we are not getting Beal in Evan Fournier trade. In order to get something, you have to give away something...

[VFX]

Saying "Fournier is not as bad as...." is not an endorsement. And it doesn't change the fact that we need bigger impact from the backcourt than DJ and Fournier are providing.

People who want to make the case that he could bounce back and return to being a good shooter are ignoring that even at those levels, he won't make the kind of impact we need. So then you're limited to just Fultz being the difference making playmaker to tip the team over the edge. That's not a safe bet.

Don’t get me wrong, he’s not good for his price. Just because other teams overpaid other guards doesn’t discount his lack of production. It doesn’t help that both backcourt options are lackluster and emphasizes this further.

The point is that he is going to be difficult to move for another SG of comparable value/production/salary.

[Bensational]

Saying "Fournier is not as bad as...." is not an endorsement. And it doesn't change the fact that we need bigger impact from the backcourt than DJ and Fournier are providing.

People who want to make the case that he could bounce back and return to being a good shooter are ignoring that even at those levels, he won't make the kind of impact we need. So then you're limited to just Fultz being the difference making playmaker to tip the team over the edge. That's not a safe bet.

Don’t get me wrong, he’s not good for his price. Just because other teams overpaid other guards doesn’t discount his lack of production. It doesn’t help that both backcourt options are lackluster and emphasizes this further.

The point is that he is going to be difficult to move for another SG of comparable value/production/salary.

I don't think you even try to match salary and production, because there are so many bloated SG contracts.

I'd either look to take back a 'competent' veteran who can replace Ross off the bench, and a young prospect (this is a Turner + Simons, or Korver + Exum, or Will Barton + Monte Morris/Michael Porter/Malik Beasley type deal), or a consolidated contract deal for someone on a hefty contract (Fournier + Mozgov for Conley, or JRue, etc type deal).

[VFX]

Saying "Fournier is not as bad as...." is not an endorsement. And it doesn't change the fact that we need bigger impact from the backcourt than DJ and Fournier are providing.

People who want to make the case that he could bounce back and return to being a good shooter are ignoring that even at those levels, he won't make the kind of impact we need. So then you're limited to just Fultz being the difference making playmaker to tip the team over the edge. That's not a safe bet.

Don’t get me wrong, he’s not good for his price. Just because other teams overpaid other guards doesn’t discount his lack of production. It doesn’t help that both backcourt options are lackluster and emphasizes this further.

The point is that he is going to be difficult to move for another SG of comparable value/production/salary.

I don't think you even try to match salary and production, because there are so many bloated SG contracts.

I'd either look to take back a 'competent' veteran who can replace Ross off the bench, and a young prospect (this is a Turner + Simons, or Korver + Exum, or Will Barton + Monte Morris/Michael Porter/Malik Beasley type deal), or a consolidated contract deal for someone on a hefty contract (Fournier + Mozgov for Conley, or JRue, etc type deal).

Agreed. Trading him for another bad contract/decent player + young promising prospect is likely the better option.

[Skin]

If you want some unbiased opinion try asking/looking on the Trades and Transactions forum.

[Bensational]

I wonder if, if we offered Brogdon a FA offer of $20M, and the Bucks didn't want to pay that, if they would do a s&t of Brogdon for Fournier? But then, they may as well just pay Brogdon the extra and retain the consistency in their team.

[j-ragg]

I wonder if, if we offered Brogdon a FA offer of $20M, and the Bucks didn't want to pay that, if they would do a s&t of Brogdon for Fournier? But then, they may as well just pay Brogdon the extra and retain the consistency in their team.

I'm surprised so many on here want Brogdon.

Statistically he's hyper efficient, but I guess I just mean style of play. He seems like another really good role player that'd thrive playing off of a #1 option. Not saying wings that are #1 options are abundant or anything but imo we'd be better saving our cap for someone who could grow into that? Maybe like Caris Levert next summer or something. I'd talk myself into Brogdon the second we signed him fwiw I'm just scared to be a near luxury tax team with some of the same offensive constraints.

[tiderulz]

I wonder if, if we offered Brogdon a FA offer of $20M, and the Bucks didn't want to pay that, if they would do a s&t of Brogdon for Fournier? But then, they may as well just pay Brogdon the extra and retain the consistency in their team.

I'm surprised so many on here want Brogdon.

Statistically he's hyper efficient, but I guess I just mean style of play. He seems like another really good role player that'd thrive playing off of a #1 option. Not saying wings that are #1 options are abundant or anything but imo we'd be better saving our cap for someone who could grow into that? Maybe like Caris Levert next summer or something. I'd talk myself into Brogdon the second we signed him fwiw I'm just scared to be a near luxury tax team with some of the same offensive constraints.

this strikes a chord with me too. very wary of overpaying for a role player. seems a good shooter, but below average athleticism, especially for a wing.

[fendilim]

Yeah, not sure why we’d want to replace Brogdon. He’s pretty much having a career year. And might be too early to overreact on fournier’s down year. Maybe if he continues to struggle next year.

But replacing him with Brogdon would only hurt the team further, imo. Brogdon would demand more than Fournier. But then what? Be stuck in another 4 years of mediocrity after? I’d rather let Evan’s deal expire and see what happens then. I dont really see brogdon moving the needle for us. Might us well just stick with Evan and see if his numbers go back up to previous years, not like this year.

[VFX]

I think the main reason people throw Brogdon’s name out there is because he is a relatively good combo guard. He’s got less nba mileage while at the same time older than a true prospect being 26. Lastly, he can fill in at either guard position and can help solve our back court quickly. I’m more on board with bringing someone like him on if we choose not to resign Ross and Vuc for that reason. That and bad free agency years ahead.

He’s also a backup - backup plan to Fultz not panning out altogether (which is entirely possible).

[tiderulz]

I think the main reason people throw Brogdon’s name out there is because he is a relatively good combo guard. He’s somewhat young while at the same time older than a true prospect being 26 and fitting with the youth rebuild. Lastly, he can fill in at either guard position and can help solve our back court quickly. I’m more on board with bringing someone like him on if we choose not to resign Ross and Vuc for that reason. That and bad free agency years ahead.

He’s also a backup - backup plan to Fultz not panning out altogether (which is entirely possible).

he is 1.5 months younger than Evan, just for reference purposes.

and Milwaukee tried him at PG and it wasnt a good fit. Not saying he couldnt fill in emergency minutes there, but i wouldnt count him as a backup PG.

[VFX]

I think the main reason people throw Brogdon’s name out there is because he is a relatively good combo guard. He’s somewhat young while at the same time older than a true prospect being 26 and fitting with the youth rebuild. Lastly, he can fill in at either guard position and can help solve our back court quickly. I’m more on board with bringing someone like him on if we choose not to resign Ross and Vuc for that reason. That and bad free agency years ahead.

He’s also a backup - backup plan to Fultz not panning out altogether (which is entirely possible).

he is 1.5 months younger than Evan, just for reference purposes.

and Milwaukee tried him at PG and it wasnt a good fit. Not saying he couldnt fill in emergency minutes there, but i wouldnt count him as a backup PG.

Yeah I should have reworded it in terms of nba mileage. He’s only been in the league 3 years and doesn’t really have a glaring weakness to his game. Not really a true point, but can’t be worse than Evan this year at generating offense and being a solid defender.

[j-ragg]

I think the main reason people throw Brogdon’s name out there is because he is a relatively good combo guard. He’s got less nba mileage while at the same time older than a true prospect being 26. Lastly, he can fill in at either guard position and can help solve our back court quickly. I’m more on board with bringing someone like him on if we choose not to resign Ross and Vuc for that reason. That and bad free agency years ahead.

He’s also a backup - backup plan to Fultz not panning out altogether (which is entirely possible).

He’s definitely versatile defensively which is nice. I think it comes down to three reasons: 1) he’s a guard and ours stink. 2) he might actually be attainable due to Milwaukee paying other guys. 3) he shoots and defends. Don’t disagree with any reasons there either, I just think this would be our 1 big FA splash and after we did it I think we’d still struggle in late game situations on offense.

By the same token for smaller markets it’s kinda beggars can’t be choosers so like I said if he were willing to sign, I’d talk myself into it. Just would try some other avenues first.

[pepe1991]

Brogdon can't be your point guard.
He is definition of two guard. Almost all his shots are assisted ( career 83% shots for 3 assisted ). He is on team with 3 ballhandlers over him ( Giannis, MIddleton and Bledsoe ) . His assists don't come from some playmaking, but from basic ballswings.

As player he is too slow to be traditional PG, can't really turn corner, doesn't have footspeed or crafted game with players on his back to operate through heavy pick&roll game around him like guys like Conley or other elite guards.

I know it's irrelevant data, but for somebody who is 6'6 guy dunekd 6 times whole season long. It just goes to show you how mediocre athlete he is. But again, when you put him on team with arguably best player on the planet, 20 ppg Middelton, ex allstar Lopez and Bledose ,and only thing he has to do is spot up and wait, it's not hard to look MUCH better than you are.

They don't even miss him that much , they replaced him with George Hill and he puts up 11,1 ppg on 50% FG, 40% for 3 and has 3 rebounds and 3 assists per game.

I have no clue where you get notion he is good defender . It's like back in Pacers when people were saying Lance Stephenson is good defender because they had elite defense so he had to be good, right? Not really.

He is pretty much carbon copy of Evan Fournier, and will, just like Evan, get deal he does not deserve. Only difference is that he stays in his lane and doesn't try to do too much because he doesn't have to. Evan has to. But everything else is almost identical.

"But he is much better shooter " , well yes, but he also doesn't shoot that much in general. Only 3,8 threes a game. Would his percentages hold on if he shoots 5 threes a game of even 6? He also had TERRIBLE playoffs last year.

[tiderulz]

Brogdon can't be your point guard.
He is definition of two guard. Almost all his shots are assisted ( career 83% shots for 3 assisted ). He is on team with 3 ballhandlers over him ( Giannis, MIddleton and Bledsoe ) . His assists don't come from some playmaking, but from basic ballswings.

As player he is too slow to be traditional PG, can't really turn corner, doesn't have footspeed or crafted game with players on his back to operate through heavy pick&roll game around him like guys like Conley or other elite guards.

I know it's irrelevant data, but for somebody who is 6'6 guy dunekd 6 times whole season long. It just goes to show you how mediocre athlete he is. But again, when you put him on team with arguably best player on the planet, 20 ppg Middelton, ex allstar Lopez and Bledose ,and only thing he has to do is spot up and wait, it's not hard to look MUCH better than you are.

They don't even miss him that much , they replaced him with George Hill and he puts up 11,1 ppg on 50% FG, 40% for 3 and has 3 rebounds and 3 assists per game.

I have no clue where you get notion he is good defender . It's like back in Pacers when people were saying Lance Stephenson is good defender because they had elite defense so he had to be good, right? Not really.

He is pretty much carbon copy of Evan Fournier, and will, just like Evan, get deal he does not deserve. Only difference is that he stays in his lane and doesn't try to do too much because he doesn't have to. Evan has to. But everything else is almost identical.

"But he is much better shooter " , well yes, but he also doesn't shoot that much in general. Only 3,8 threes a game. Would his percentages hold on if he shoots 5 threes a game of even 6? He also had TERRIBLE playoffs last year.

thats a double edge sword. Milwaukee's offense is predicated on keeping everyone out of the paint for Giannis to have space. Thus, that takes away some offense from players that might be able to cut to the hole or take their guy off the dribble. Milwaukee's offensive scheme can limit some players by removing some of their weapons.

[pepe1991]

Brogdon can't be your point guard.
He is definition of two guard. Almost all his shots are assisted ( career 83% shots for 3 assisted ). He is on team with 3 ballhandlers over him ( Giannis, MIddleton and Bledsoe ) . His assists don't come from some playmaking, but from basic ballswings.

As player he is too slow to be traditional PG, can't really turn corner, doesn't have footspeed or crafted game with players on his back to operate through heavy pick&roll game around him like guys like Conley or other elite guards.

I know it's irrelevant data, but for somebody who is 6'6 guy dunekd 6 times whole season long. It just goes to show you how mediocre athlete he is. But again, when you put him on team with arguably best player on the planet, 20 ppg Middelton, ex allstar Lopez and Bledose ,and only thing he has to do is spot up and wait, it's not hard to look MUCH better than you are.

They don't even miss him that much , they replaced him with George Hill and he puts up 11,1 ppg on 50% FG, 40% for 3 and has 3 rebounds and 3 assists per game.

I have no clue where you get notion he is good defender . It's like back in Pacers when people were saying Lance Stephenson is good defender because they had elite defense so he had to be good, right? Not really.

He is pretty much carbon copy of Evan Fournier, and will, just like Evan, get deal he does not deserve. Only difference is that he stays in his lane and doesn't try to do too much because he doesn't have to. Evan has to. But everything else is almost identical.

"But he is much better shooter " , well yes, but he also doesn't shoot that much in general. Only 3,8 threes a game. Would his percentages hold on if he shoots 5 threes a game of even 6? He also had TERRIBLE playoffs last year.

thats a double edge sword. Milwaukee's offense is predicated on keeping everyone out of the paint for Giannis to have space. Thus, that takes away some offense from players that might be able to cut to the hole or take their guy off the dribble. Milwaukee's offensive scheme can limit some players by removing some of their weapons.

He is turning 27 on start of next season. With 4 years of college and 3 years in nba, we never saw any developed offensive game from him. I just don't think he has athletics or ballhandling to expend his game at this stage of his career. Bucks are perfect for him, just like guards like him and George Hill are perfect for them.

[VFX]

Brogdon can't be your point guard.
He is definition of two guard. Almost all his shots are assisted ( career 83% shots for 3 assisted ). He is on team with 3 ballhandlers over him ( Giannis, MIddleton and Bledsoe ) . His assists don't come from some playmaking, but from basic ballswings.

As player he is too slow to be traditional PG, can't really turn corner, doesn't have footspeed or crafted game with players on his back to operate through heavy pick&roll game around him like guys like Conley or other elite guards.

I know it's irrelevant data, but for somebody who is 6'6 guy dunekd 6 times whole season long. It just goes to show you how mediocre athlete he is. But again, when you put him on team with arguably best player on the planet, 20 ppg Middelton, ex allstar Lopez and Bledose ,and only thing he has to do is spot up and wait, it's not hard to look MUCH better than you are.

They don't even miss him that much , they replaced him with George Hill and he puts up 11,1 ppg on 50% FG, 40% for 3 and has 3 rebounds and 3 assists per game.

I have no clue where you get notion he is good defender . It's like back in Pacers when people were saying Lance Stephenson is good defender because they had elite defense so he had to be good, right? Not really.

He is pretty much carbon copy of Evan Fournier, and will, just like Evan, get deal he does not deserve. Only difference is that he stays in his lane and doesn't try to do too much because he doesn't have to. Evan has to. But everything else is almost identical.

"But he is much better shooter " , well yes, but he also doesn't shoot that much in general. Only 3,8 threes a game. Would his percentages hold on if he shoots 5 threes a game of even 6? He also had TERRIBLE playoffs last year.

You are insane if you don’t think Brogdon isn’t better defensively than Fournier. Just because he can play point doesn’t mean he should. However, that’s more than Fournier can say. Being a two guard than can spot up and defend is more than Orlando could ask for. I’m not saying Orlando should or will sign him, but he’s an upgrade to what we have currently.

Higher ppg, 3p%, better rebounder, better defensively, and significantly better ft% which is telling. The only category Fournier is higher than him in is APG 3.6 to 3.4, but that’s with a legitimate point guard next to him in Bledsoe.

[pepe1991]

Brogdon can't be your point guard.
He is definition of two guard. Almost all his shots are assisted ( career 83% shots for 3 assisted ). He is on team with 3 ballhandlers over him ( Giannis, MIddleton and Bledsoe ) . His assists don't come from some playmaking, but from basic ballswings.

As player he is too slow to be traditional PG, can't really turn corner, doesn't have footspeed or crafted game with players on his back to operate through heavy pick&roll game around him like guys like Conley or other elite guards.

I know it's irrelevant data, but for somebody who is 6'6 guy dunekd 6 times whole season long. It just goes to show you how mediocre athlete he is. But again, when you put him on team with arguably best player on the planet, 20 ppg Middelton, ex allstar Lopez and Bledose ,and only thing he has to do is spot up and wait, it's not hard to look MUCH better than you are.

They don't even miss him that much , they replaced him with George Hill and he puts up 11,1 ppg on 50% FG, 40% for 3 and has 3 rebounds and 3 assists per game.

I have no clue where you get notion he is good defender . It's like back in Pacers when people were saying Lance Stephenson is good defender because they had elite defense so he had to be good, right? Not really.

He is pretty much carbon copy of Evan Fournier, and will, just like Evan, get deal he does not deserve. Only difference is that he stays in his lane and doesn't try to do too much because he doesn't have to. Evan has to. But everything else is almost identical.

"But he is much better shooter " , well yes, but he also doesn't shoot that much in general. Only 3,8 threes a game. Would his percentages hold on if he shoots 5 threes a game of even 6? He also had TERRIBLE playoffs last year.

You are insane if you don’t think Brogdon isn’t better defensively than Fournier and a better shooter. Just because he can play point doesn’t mean he should. However, that’s more than Fournier can say. Being a two guard than can spot up and defend is more than Orlando could ask for. I’m not saying Orlando should of will sign him, but he’s an upgrade to what we have currently.

Brogdon's DBPM is always negative, despite playing on elite defensive team.
Being better than Evan on defense doesn't mean much ,but painting him as some elite defender is laughable.
Also why are you so confident he is better shooter ? Almost all his shots are wide open.
Just think about it for a second and how much he benefits from Giannis and MIddelton through this fact:
40% three point shooter made 90 out of 104 threes where closest defender was at least 6 feet away from him. Do you know how many shooters get to be THAT wide open during 82 games , yet only shoot 3,8 threes a game? Non.

Also did you know that Gordon this year made more threes in single season than Brogdon ever did? Matter of fact he only made 18 threes more than Jonathan Isaac. And this is season where he made most threes. He is extreamly conservative shooter, only shoots when he is wide open. Things that on worst teams will never be a case.

You get Brogdon here and all his efficiency stats will drop, because there will be no Giannis , Middleton, Bledsoe , Mirotić, Lopez to drag create for him .

It's also interesting that him ,as guard, only shot 5% of all FGA from 3-10 feet range. Just goes to show you how he is being used, as outside shooter and nothing else. So objective question is simple -what makes $17-20M , 27 years old Brogdon that much more valuable than $10-14M , 28 years old Ross ?

[tiderulz]

Brogdon can't be your point guard.
He is definition of two guard. Almost all his shots are assisted ( career 83% shots for 3 assisted ). He is on team with 3 ballhandlers over him ( Giannis, MIddleton and Bledsoe ) . His assists don't come from some playmaking, but from basic ballswings.

As player he is too slow to be traditional PG, can't really turn corner, doesn't have footspeed or crafted game with players on his back to operate through heavy pick&roll game around him like guys like Conley or other elite guards.

I know it's irrelevant data, but for somebody who is 6'6 guy dunekd 6 times whole season long. It just goes to show you how mediocre athlete he is. But again, when you put him on team with arguably best player on the planet, 20 ppg Middelton, ex allstar Lopez and Bledose ,and only thing he has to do is spot up and wait, it's not hard to look MUCH better than you are.

They don't even miss him that much , they replaced him with George Hill and he puts up 11,1 ppg on 50% FG, 40% for 3 and has 3 rebounds and 3 assists per game.

I have no clue where you get notion he is good defender . It's like back in Pacers when people were saying Lance Stephenson is good defender because they had elite defense so he had to be good, right? Not really.

He is pretty much carbon copy of Evan Fournier, and will, just like Evan, get deal he does not deserve. Only difference is that he stays in his lane and doesn't try to do too much because he doesn't have to. Evan has to. But everything else is almost identical.

"But he is much better shooter " , well yes, but he also doesn't shoot that much in general. Only 3,8 threes a game. Would his percentages hold on if he shoots 5 threes a game of even 6? He also had TERRIBLE playoffs last year.

You are insane if you don’t think Brogdon isn’t better defensively than Fournier. Just because he can play point doesn’t mean he should. However, that’s more than Fournier can say. Being a two guard than can spot up and defend is more than Orlando could ask for. I’m not saying Orlando should or will sign him, but he’s an upgrade to what we have currently.

Higher ppg, 3p%, better rebounder, better defensively, and significantly better ft% which is telling. The only category Fournier is higher than him in is APG 3.6 to 3.4, but that’s with a legitimate point guard next to him in Bledsoe.

on the flip side, Fournier can play SF and Brogdon cant.

[pepe1991]

i don't think Brogdon is bad player, but price tag of $17-20M is not realistic salary for somebody who will not solve Magic ballhandling issues and who needs system around him to get best of him.

He is also much older than most people assume ( turning 27 on start of next season ) . People forget that he spent 4 years at college.