The Guards

[Bensational]

OKC have found a way to play SGA, Giddey and Williams all at once. 3 PGs, one who can’t shoot, sharing the court at the same time. And they just drafted Cason. Nobody is worried about OKC not being able to fit together.

Jalen Williams is an off-ball player for OKC. He only averaged 46 touches per game compared to 77 touches for Giddey and 73 touches for SGA.

The Thunder also don't possess the same caliber of front court as the Magic (Paolo 65, Franz 53 touches per game), so more touches go to their guards than will go to the Magic's guards.

If any one of Fultz, Cole or Black could play off the ball as effectively as Williams can, this wouldn't really be an issue for the Magic.

The problem is we already know Fultz and Cole are significantly less effective/outright bad off the ball and Black doesn't project to be a good enough shooter (at least early on) to be effective off the ball either.

So unlike OKC, the Magic have three guys who all need the ball. And you don't play three primary ball handlers.

Jalen Williams in college was an on-ball player who averaged more apg than Black did in college, so like Black he has PG capabilities. But SGA and Giddey were superior so they claimed the lion's share. It didn't mean Williams suddenly lost his ability to play on-ball, he just didn't have the skills to demand more touches. More touches will go to the strongest offensive engines, it’s not strictly a front court back court thing.

Cole shoots more or less the same as Williams off the ball. Black is young so he's expected to struggle. Fultz is the one who has something to prove this season and he's going to get the chance.

[Petre1978]

Tbh, I think most logical is to have Black play SG most of the time next year. That’s the only logical scenario where we’ll be able to play him big minutes without sacrificing much on competing aspect, as w’ll be able to play him alongside vets.

I think we’ll be playing a lot like how the Celtics play their lineup with White and Smart.

If you look at our offense, there really is no defined role and everyone can run the offense. The position title is really just a title, but everyone can play different roles every play.

The question next though is where the shooting will come from. I think management still believes in internal progression of shooting from Fultz and Suggs. And after last season, there MIGHT be hope. Suggs
Improved significantly and Fultz was showing some ability to shoot off the drivble 3s.

I was thinking about Black as the backup PG.

[Bensational]

I think people are really, really overthinking and overcomplicating it.

Rooks are rooks. As long as there is a legit plan for him to be a lead guard as soon as next year, Black will probably start getting on ball reps from the bench and then ??? as the season progresses. That may be Cole's best spot but whatever, it'll be noticeable if his guard skills from college translate immediately that that's where he should be.

They saw the improvement the team made last season and don't want to risk rocking the boat too much, but they're still undecided about what is "real" and what is a "mirage" about the backcourt. It's solid, but average. I think they think that "If you want to stay, show why you're good enough to stay."

Which means they can afford to play around with lineups until trade deadline/next offseason and move guys. We saw how literally 2-3 weeks into the season last year how easily our depth depletes with an injury or two. And it's clear with the 2025 CBA coming up that we can't realistically sign everyone while also paying Wagner + Banchero and trying to wrangle bigger fish. It's probably why they made and kept these picks, because you saw teams like Denver and other smart teams rebuilding through the draft and posturing towards the future.

This only becomes a problem if Fultz is signed long-term with an intention to be full time PG, making Black's pick questionable.. unless Black at the next level just becomes some weird ass player we could never have predicted.

This.

Except for the last line. By the virtue of Black's size he could be anything from a big PG to a playmaking SF. I think people are too stuck on traditional roles and titles in the era of position-less basketball. Skills are more important than role names and we're collecting guys who have the skills to play smart, fast and connected. Total Basketball.

[SOUL]

Except for the last line. By the virtue of Black's size he could be anything from a big PG to a playmaking SF. I think people are too stuck on traditional roles and titles in the era of position-less basketball. Skills are more important than role names and we're collecting guys who have the skills to play smart, fast and connected. Total Basketball.

I don't disagree his multi-positional use, just in the context of Fultz-Black-Franz-Banchero-WCJ as a future starting lineup if he didn't become a full-time PG, it would make internal three point shooting having to be massively improved upon, which I just don't think will happen with that group in terms of someone needing to be a sniper with a massive amount of attempts.. maybe Wagner. Banchero will improve. Fultz ??, WCJ seems good for a few. But it's also why I'm okay with him the upcoming season just playing out there wherever and showing the team what he's best at.

[fendilim]

Tbh, I think most logical is to have Black play SG most of the time next year. That’s the only logical scenario where we’ll be able to play him big minutes without sacrificing much on competing aspect, as w’ll be able to play him alongside vets.

I think we’ll be playing a lot like how the Celtics play their lineup with White and Smart.

If you look at our offense, there really is no defined role and everyone can run the offense. The position title is really just a title, but everyone can play different roles every play.

The question next though is where the shooting will come from. I think management still believes in internal progression of shooting from Fultz and Suggs. And after last season, there MIGHT be hope. Suggs
Improved significantly and Fultz was showing some ability to shoot off the drivble 3s.

I was thinking about Black as the backup PG.

true. But we have a logjam. Suggs and Cole.

I dont think black can run the offense better than suggs and cole especially at the start of his rookie year.

[Knightro]

Jalen Williams in college was an on-ball player who averaged more apg than Black did in college, so like Black he has PG capabilities. But SGA and Giddey were superior so they claimed the lion's share. It didn't mean Williams suddenly lost his ability to play on-ball, he just didn't have the skills to demand more touches. More touches will go to the strongest offensive engines, it’s not strictly a front court back court thing.

Cole shoots more or less the same as Williams off the ball. Black is young so he's expected to struggle. Fultz is the one who has something to prove this season and he's going to get the chance.

I mean no disrespect, but does it matter at all what Williams did in college when we’re talking about what his role was in OKC?

Williams can probably play on the ball in the NBA, sure. But the Thunder used him strictly off the ball as a rookie.

But even if he could play as a primary ball handler at a really high level, that’s especially irrelevant to this discussion because we’re talking about the literal exact opposite in regards to the Magic.

We’re talking about three guys (two for sure and one based on projected weaknesses) who CANT play off the ball.

Which has been my point the entire time. How is Black going to get the on-ball reps needed when Fultz and Cole are soaking up all those reps? Especially if you want this team to be as competitive as possible, then there’s no way you’d move Cole off the ball to accommodate a rookie that hasn’t earned it and make the team weaker on the court (in the short term) in the process.

Again I say again if any one of Fultz, Cole or Black could play off the ball as well as Williams did last year for OKC, none of this would be an issue whatsoever.

But they can’t. So it is.

[Knightro]

Except for the last line. By the virtue of Black's size he could be anything from a big PG to a playmaking SF. I think people are too stuck on traditional roles and titles in the era of position-less basketball. Skills are more important than role names and we're collecting guys who have the skills to play smart, fast and connected. Total Basketball.

This whole thing is based on skills. Or specifically lack there of.

Markelle Fultz can’t shoot and also doesn’t shoot.

There’s no scenario he can play *with* Anthony Black unless one of them DRAMATICALLY improves their 3PT shooting (and 3PT volume in Fultz’s case) beyond what anyone could reasonably expect.

This entire discussion is literally skill based and how that inevitably trickles down to a player’s respective role on the court.

[Petre1978]

Tbh, I think most logical is to have Black play SG most of the time next year. That’s the only logical scenario where we’ll be able to play him big minutes without sacrificing much on competing aspect, as w’ll be able to play him alongside vets.

I think we’ll be playing a lot like how the Celtics play their lineup with White and Smart.

If you look at our offense, there really is no defined role and everyone can run the offense. The position title is really just a title, but everyone can play different roles every play.

The question next though is where the shooting will come from. I think management still believes in internal progression of shooting from Fultz and Suggs. And after last season, there MIGHT be hope. Suggs
Improved significantly and Fultz was showing some ability to shoot off the drivble 3s.

I was thinking about Black as the backup PG.

true. But we have a logjam. Suggs and Cole.

I dont think black can run the offense better than suggs and cole especially at the start of his rookie year.

Suggs is not a PG ( combo guard )
Cole is a small SG

[Knightro]

Suggs is not a PG ( combo guard )
Cole is a small SG

There’s three positions in the NBA.

1. Primary ball handler (guys who bring the ball up and initiate plays)

2. Off-ball guards and wings (guys who spot up or create offense in the halfcourt after receiving a pass)

3. Bigs (guys who are the primary screen setters offensively and/or hang out in the dunker spot)

Cole is a primary ball handler even if he’s not a traditional pass first playmaking type of guard.

Fultz is obviously a primary ball handler as well.

We were all hoping Suggs would be one to as well, but candidly his ball handling is so poor that he just isn’t really capable of being one.

The issue is that it appears on paper that Black, given his shortcomings as a shooter, needs to be a primary ball handler as well to maximize his effectiveness.

But you can’t play three of those guys in one rotation.

So something’s gotta give.

[Bensational]

Jalen Williams in college was an on-ball player who averaged more apg than Black did in college, so like Black he has PG capabilities. But SGA and Giddey were superior so they claimed the lion's share. It didn't mean Williams suddenly lost his ability to play on-ball, he just didn't have the skills to demand more touches. More touches will go to the strongest offensive engines, it’s not strictly a front court back court thing.

Cole shoots more or less the same as Williams off the ball. Black is young so he's expected to struggle. Fultz is the one who has something to prove this season and he's going to get the chance.

I mean no disrespect, but does it matter at all what Williams did in college when we’re talking about what his role was in OKC?

I can spin that back to you: what does it matter what Black did in college if the Magic choose to put him in a different role? Paolo and Franz appear to be superior players already, both are playmakers, so wouldn’t they get the SGA/Giddey preferential touches over Black?

Jalen Williams was more than just an off-ball guy though. He ranked top 3 in OKC for dribbles per touch and top 4 in time per touch and 3rd in assists, so it’s not like he was Gary Harris. It’s beyond an exaggeration to say Williams was strictly off-ball.

But even if he could play as a primary ball handler at a really high level, that’s especially irrelevant to this discussion because we’re talking about the literal exact opposite in regards to the Magic.

We’re talking about three guys (two for sure and one based on projected weaknesses) who CANT play off the ball.

Cole already plays off the ball with Franz. There’s also more ways to play off the ball than just kicking to open shooters.

Which has been my point the entire time. How is Black going to get the on-ball reps needed when Fultz and Cole are soaking up all those reps? Especially if you want this team to be as competitive as possible, then there’s no way you’d move Cole off the ball to accommodate a rookie that hasn’t earned it and make the team weaker on the court (in the short term) in the process.

Again I say again if any one of Fultz, Cole or Black could play off the ball as well as Williams did last year for OKC, none of this would be an issue whatsoever.

But they can’t. So it is.

Again - Cole’s off-ball numbers lineup with Jalen’s pretty comparably. Williams is 0.8/2.3 catch and shoot attempts from 3 (37%). Cole was 0.8/2.4 (35%). We have a guy who can provide the kind of numbers you’re looking for but you keep insisting Cole can’t do that.

Black will get plenty of on-ball touches in the course of a game, but if his off-ball game needs the most work then it doesn’t seem a loss to have him prioritise developing that this season. Will it be as efficient as if we had someone like Austin Reaves playing that role? Probably not, but this is part of the development required in a rebuild - letting players grow into their fully realised selves.

[tiderulz]

Suggs is not a PG ( combo guard )
Cole is a small SG

There’s three positions in the NBA.

1. Primary ball handler (guys who bring the ball up and initiate plays)

2. Off-ball guards and wings (guys who spot up or create offense in the halfcourt after receiving a pass)

3. Bigs (guys who are the primary screen setters offensively and/or hang out in the dunker spot)

Cole is a primary ball handler even if he’s not a transitional pass first playmaking type of guard.

Fultz is obviously a primary ball handler as well.

We were all hoping Suggs would be one to as well, but candidly his ball handling is so poor that he just isn’t really capable of being one.

The issue is that it appears on paper that Black, given his shortcomings as a shooter, needs to be a primary ball handler as well to maximize his effectiveness.

But you can’t play three of those guys in one rotation.
So something’s gotta give.

+100

especially about the 3 positions.

[SOUL]

Suggs is not a PG ( combo guard )
Cole is a small SG

There’s three positions in the NBA.

1. Primary ball handler (guys who bring the ball up and initiate plays)

2. Off-ball guards and wings (guys who spot up or create offense in the halfcourt after receiving a pass)

3. Bigs (guys who are the primary screen setters offensively and/or hang out in the dunker spot)

Cole is a primary ball handler even if he’s not a transitional pass first playmaking type of guard.

Fultz is obviously a primary ball handler as well.

We were all hoping Suggs would be one to as well, but candidly his ball handling is so poor that he just isn’t really capable of being one.

The issue is that it appears on paper that Black, given his shortcomings as a shooter, needs to be a primary ball handler as well to maximize his effectiveness.

But you can’t play three of those guys in one rotation.
So something’s gotta give.

I don't disagree with these, I just think the urgency in which you're saying like "Then he shouldn't be drafted" is waaay too premature, considering I think it's obvious with the way the cap future is set up that they cannot pay all 4 guards, and Black isn't going to be the odd man out there.

Where he starts his career is of the least of my concerns. 80% of rookies don't have the luxury that Suggs/Franz/Paolo did in being able to play the most optimal roles and learn the way they did, teams start having expectations and wanting to win. But they also need to have a plan in place, and I think they do.

The only caveat is, if we somehow extended Cole and Fultz or something. Then I'd agree with your statement of taking someone out of their best role with no intention to play them there. Suggs to me doesn't really clash as much because he's not an on-ball guy like you said, but I think for now things will shuffle out how they shuffle out, even if at first the shapes aren't neatly put into the correct spaces.

[Petre1978]

Suggs is not a PG ( combo guard )
Cole is a small SG

There’s three positions in the NBA.

1. Primary ball handler (guys who bring the ball up and initiate plays)

2. Off-ball guards and wings (guys who spot up or create offense in the halfcourt after receiving a pass)

3. Bigs (guys who are the primary screen setters offensively and/or hang out in the dunker spot)

Cole is a primary ball handler even if he’s not a transitional pass first playmaking type of guard.

Fultz is obviously a primary ball handler as well.

We were all hoping Suggs would be one to as well, but candidly his ball handling is so poor that he just isn’t really capable of being one.

The issue is that it appears on paper that Black, given his shortcomings as a shooter, needs to be a primary ball handler as well to maximize his effectiveness.

But you can’t play three of those guys in one rotation.
So something’s gotta give.

You should be in the FO.
Du bass den richtegen dofir.

[Petre1978]

Jalen Williams in college was an on-ball player who averaged more apg than Black did in college, so like Black he has PG capabilities. But SGA and Giddey were superior so they claimed the lion's share. It didn't mean Williams suddenly lost his ability to play on-ball, he just didn't have the skills to demand more touches. More touches will go to the strongest offensive engines, it’s not strictly a front court back court thing.

Cole shoots more or less the same as Williams off the ball. Black is young so he's expected to struggle. Fultz is the one who has something to prove this season and he's going to get the chance.

I mean no disrespect, but does it matter at all what Williams did in college when we’re talking about what his role was in OKC?

I can spin that back to you: what does it matter what Black did in college if the Magic choose to put him in a different role? Paolo and Franz appear to be superior players already, both are playmakers, so wouldn’t they get the SGA/Giddey preferential touches over Black?

Jalen Williams was more than just an off-ball guy though. He ranked top 3 in OKC for dribbles per touch and top 4 in time per touch and 3rd in assists, so it’s not like he was Gary Harris. It’s beyond an exaggeration to say Williams was strictly off-ball.

But even if he could play as a primary ball handler at a really high level, that’s especially irrelevant to this discussion because we’re talking about the literal exact opposite in regards to the Magic.

We’re talking about three guys (two for sure and one based on projected weaknesses) who CANT play off the ball.

Cole already plays off the ball with Franz. There’s also more ways to play off the ball than just kicking to open shooters.

Which has been my point the entire time. How is Black going to get the on-ball reps needed when Fultz and Cole are soaking up all those reps? Especially if you want this team to be as competitive as possible, then there’s no way you’d move Cole off the ball to accommodate a rookie that hasn’t earned it and make the team weaker on the court (in the short term) in the process.

Again I say again if any one of Fultz, Cole or Black could play off the ball as well as Williams did last year for OKC, none of this would be an issue whatsoever.

But they can’t. So it is.

Again - Cole’s off-ball numbers lineup with Jalen’s pretty comparably. Williams is 0.8/2.3 catch and shoot attempts from 3 (37%). Cole was 0.8/2.4 (35%). We have a guy who can provide the kind of numbers you’re looking for but you keep insisting Cole can’t do that.

Black will get plenty of on-ball touches in the course of a game, but if his off-ball game needs the most work then it doesn’t seem a loss to have him prioritise developing that this season. Will it be as efficient as if we had someone like Austin Reaves playing that role? Probably not, but this is part of the development required in a rebuild - letting players grow into their fully realised selves.

I agree with you!!

[VFX]

Suggs is not a PG ( combo guard )
Cole is a small SG

There’s three positions in the NBA.

1. Primary ball handler (guys who bring the ball up and initiate plays)

2. Off-ball guards and wings (guys who spot up or create offense in the halfcourt after receiving a pass)

3. Bigs (guys who are the primary screen setters offensively and/or hang out in the dunker spot)

Cole is a primary ball handler even if he’s not a transitional pass first playmaking type of guard.

Fultz is obviously a primary ball handler as well.

We were all hoping Suggs would be one to as well, but candidly his ball handling is so poor that he just isn’t really capable of being one.

The issue is that it appears on paper that Black, given his shortcomings as a shooter, needs to be a primary ball handler as well to maximize his effectiveness.

But you can’t play three of those guys in one rotation.
So something’s gotta give.

I don't disagree with these, I just think the urgency in which you're saying like "Then he shouldn't be drafted" is waaay too premature, considering I think it's obvious with the way the cap future is set up that they cannot pay all 4 guards, and Black isn't going to be the odd man out there.

Where he starts his career is of the least of my concerns. 80% of rookies don't have the luxury that Suggs/Franz/Paolo did in being able to play the most optimal roles and learn the way they did, teams start having expectations and wanting to win. But they also need to have a plan in place, and I think they do.

The only caveat is, if we somehow extended Cole and Fultz or something. Then I'd agree with your statement of taking someone out of their best role with no intention to play them there. Suggs to me doesn't really clash as much because he's not an on-ball guy like you said, but I think for now things will shuffle out how they shuffle out, even if at first the shapes aren't neatly put into the correct spaces.

Not so sure.

I mean at some point you have to look at your assets and make assessments on how you are allocating value within the roster. You can’t spend multiple lottery picks on building a starting lineup and be “OK” knowing none of it works on the court together efficiently. This isn’t some backyard family get together where everyone sits around a campfire and tells ghost stories for the next 6 years. They have to build a roster that can compete.

No, they should not have spent a #6 pick on Black if they don’t have an actionable plan in place toward easing him into being the lead initiator of the offense in the immediate future.

All of this comes down to Fultz, like every other topic on this board. Not Cole and not Suggs. Why? Because they are under controlled contracts for the foreseeable future. Cole provides more as a backup than Fultz for many reasons and likely will cost less to retain. Suggs doesn’t need the ball in his hands to be effective whatsoever. Neither of those things can be said of Fultz.

None of this needs to be immediately solved right this very minute. However, at some point down the line if moves aren’t made this upcoming season, then Orlando will have problems. If they extend Markelle you can completely dismiss any semblance of logically utilizing assets appropriately.

[SOUL]

None of this needs to be immediately solved right this very minute. However, at some point down the line if moves aren’t made this upcoming season, then Orlando will have problems. If they extend Markelle you can completely dismiss any semblance of logically utilizing assets appropriately.

We're basically saying the same thing in the end just with different smaller disagreements though. I just think the writing is on the wall with the Black pick that they are okay with the backcourt in terms of short-term competitiveness, but are not convinced on the future of any of them until there is consistency in important guard skills (shooting, playmaking, off-ball potential).

And yeah, it all depends on what they do with extensions. If they play out the season without extending anybody with Black playing in not the most optimal roles to start, that's fine to me. It's if they've already committed a spot at PG to Fultz and are still considering Cole/Suggs or something where it's like.. well.. where does he go?

[VFX]

None of this needs to be immediately solved right this very minute. However, at some point down the line if moves aren’t made this upcoming season, then Orlando will have problems. If they extend Markelle you can completely dismiss any semblance of logically utilizing assets appropriately.

We're basically saying the same thing in the end just with different smaller disagreements though. I just think the writing is on the wall with the Black pick that they are okay with the backcourt in terms of short-term competitiveness, but are not convinced on the future of any of them until there is consistency in important guard skills (shooting, playmaking, off-ball potential).

And yeah, it all depends on what they do with extensions. If they play out the season without extending anybody with Black playing in not the most optimal roles to start, that's fine to me. It's if they've already committed a spot at PG to Fultz and are still considering Cole/Suggs or something where it's like.. well.. where does he go?

Sorry I misread what you originally wrote.

Yes we agree.

We are saying the same thing where we notice there are objectively different qualities between the guards that make sense within the scope of drafting Black.

[Knightro]

I can spin that back to you: what does it matter what Black did in college if the Magic choose to put him in a different role? Paolo and Franz appear to be superior players already, both are playmakers, so wouldn’t they get the SGA/Giddey preferential touches over Black?

We're projecting strengths and weaknesses man. Jalen Williams in his final season of college shot 39% from 3PT and 81% from FT. It was pretty clear Williams would be able to shoot at the next level based on that.

It's not clear right now if Black can shoot at all and it's extremely difficult to play off the ball in the NBA if you can't shoot.

Jalen Williams was more than just an off-ball guy though. He ranked top 3 in OKC for dribbles per touch and top 4 in time per touch and 3rd in assists, so it’s not like he was Gary Harris. It’s beyond an exaggeration to say Williams was strictly off-ball.

If a player isn't responsible for dribbling the basketball up and initiating the offense set, he's an off the ball player. Giddey and SGA were those guys for the Thunder. Williams was not.

Even if a player likes to run a bunch of isolations in the halfcourt and has the skill to pass the ball when the defense collapses, there's still generally going to be someone else feeding him the ball and off ball action to get him open within the halfcourt in a spot where he likes to receive the ball in the first place.

Cole already plays off the ball with Franz. There’s also more ways to play off the ball than just kicking to open shooters.

Again - Cole’s off-ball numbers lineup with Jalen’s pretty comparably. Williams is 0.8/2.3 catch and shoot attempts from 3 (37%). Cole was 0.8/2.4 (35%). We have a guy who can provide the kind of numbers you’re looking for but you keep insisting Cole can’t do that.

Black will get plenty of on-ball touches in the course of a game, but if his off-ball game needs the most work then it doesn’t seem a loss to have him prioritise developing that this season. Will it be as efficient as if we had someone like Austin Reaves playing that role? Probably not, but this is part of the development required in a rebuild - letting players grow into their fully realised selves.

There's a lot about this that is just not really accurate. When Cole's in the game and Fultz is not, he's the primary ball handler. Franz might have a high usage when he's playing with the 2nd unit, but that's generally in the halfcourt after Cole's passed him the ball, which is different thing.

What Black needs a whole lot more than off ball reps is on ball reps. He's a point guard and he was drafted really high. He needs to play PG. We literally just went through this same nonsense with Suggs.

[Knightro]

The only caveat is, if we somehow extended Cole and Fultz or something. Then I'd agree with your statement of taking someone out of their best role with no intention to play them there. Suggs to me doesn't really clash as much because he's not an on-ball guy like you said, but I think for now things will shuffle out how they shuffle out, even if at first the shapes aren't neatly put into the correct spaces.

This is pretty much exactly what MagicMatic and I are warning everyone against.

The Magic appear to be ready to attempt to navigate two distinctly different paths concurrently.

Path 1 is to field as competitive of a team as possible and make the play in/playoffs next season

Path 2 is to putting their young talent (most specifically Paolo, Franz, Suggs, Black and Howard) in the best position to maximize their development

What's going to happen when those paths converge next summer?

If Markelle Fultz and Cole Anthony are both here this entire upcoming season and the Magic make the playoffs, do you really think the Magic are going to let one or both of them walk in free agency and just hand over one of their spots to Anthony Black? That just seems completely implausible. They're gonna want to ride the momentum wave into an even deeper playoff run in 24-25, which means not turning the reigns over to what will almost certainly be an inexperienced young point guard in Black.

They're backing themselves into a corner when they definitely don't need to.

I will go on record right now and say if Markelle Fultz signs a new contract with the Magic that the Anthony Black pick was an abject failure.

[Audi]

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