Moore: Magic Need to Trade for Malcolm Brogdon

[SOUL]

This isn't even factoring in 22-year-old Jalen Suggs who's best position *could* have been point guard, but has been forced to move to a pure shooting guard role because of roster construction.

I love Suggs but the whole not being able to dribble every other possession thing is an issue. Same issue Oladipo had which is why he ultimately couldn't be ran at that position full time. It's also not easy to invest that much time into that important of a position if you can't do one of the most important things that position requires at least at a dependable level.

[Bensational]

I understood Lillard.

Jrue I thought was dumb but at least could understand.

Now we want Brogdan?!

Some of you are jonesing so much for a trade it’s kind of nuts we need to find out what we have in all of our guards so we figure out who to keep. Or maybe decide none are starting championship quality. But we need to find out.

True. I don’t think even adding Lillard would propel us into contention because we’re still very much in our infancy, imo. I like Harris and Ingles as our veterans because both seem happy to take a back seat to emerging youth.

[pepe1991]

Thing is, there is nothing that sophmore Suggs did that was better than rookie Oladipo.
And just because he can't play PG , doesn't make him good shooting guard.

There is whole bunch of things shooting guards should be doing, that Suggs simply doesn't. Like, moving without ball, making open mid range jumpers, shoot above laegue's average in catch&shoot, cuts.

I saw his cuts percentile, and it's 18th. Frequency isn't bad, it's efficiency that stinks. Where some top tear SGs are in upper 80s and even mid 90s (Edwards, with similar build with 94th percentile, Lavine 97th, SGA 95th etc).

His spotups are even worst, even Fultz is better at it ( again 16th percentile, witch is laughable for shooting guard). This is another category where frequency isn't issue, issue is fact he shoots 32% FG off.

We also give him 0,7 possessions for iso basketball. Return value - 20th percentile.

And what's probably the worst ,he is very bad transition player as well , sitting at 20th percentile. It's so bad that even our center, Carter, is better transition player, standing at near 300 pounds .


Overall, Suggs fandom is based on things that he did against weak competition at college, where he was 3rd best player at. His legacy is half court, off glass shot.
Since his arrival in nba, he is mediocre bench player and one man tank as starter (in rookie season).

Only reason why people project him at SG is because Magic have like 12 point guards better than him, and at SG they have nobody. But that notion alone, doesn't make him shooting guard. hell, Cole is way better "shooting guard" than Sugggs.

[drsd]

Thing is, there is nothing that sophmore Suggs did that was better than rookie Oladipo.
And just because he can't play PG , doesn't make him good shooting guard.

pepe: do you like Suggs as a backup guard though? I personalty think he would be a nice player behind a starting SG that is focused on scoring.

[pepe1991]

Thing is, there is nothing that sophmore Suggs did that was better than rookie Oladipo.
And just because he can't play PG , doesn't make him good shooting guard.

pepe: do you like Suggs as a backup guard though? I personalty think he would be a nice player behind a starting SG that is focused on scoring.

I like him with Cole off bench because he could guard players Cole can't. But in same time that's your former 5th overall pick.

[MoMM]

Terrible pick and just to think we could have Josh Giddey instead makes it even worse.

You spent a Top5 pick in a guard that can't be a playmaker and can't shoot in today's game, no sense at all

[basketballRob]

Suggs was our second most effective player last season based on Raptor. Players usually continue to make jumps for their first 3 years.

He also shot near 40% from 3 in his last 30 games. His shot has gotten better.

If he has a season where he's healthy, I think everyone here will view him as a good pick. You can still see flashes where he's one of the best players on the team. I'll even say his peaks are better than anyone else on the team. When he's good, he can take over on both ends.

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[pepe1991]

Raptor doesn't measure efficiency. Hell, Raptor doesn't measure anything.
They have model that realies heavily on on/off data ( that has very little value without context of quality of benches & replacment players).
But worst thing about RAPTOR data ( that they even mentioned in one article) is their gross overvalue of VERY specific things that are very random and not that important really. Like their fascination with contested rebounds.
By definition it's very hard to define "contested" and my assumpsion is that tracking just counts rebounds near other oppoonent as contested.

Anyhow, it's funny how inflated RAPTOR is and how baised it is toward "contested rebounds" rebounders. That data alone allows Gobert to creep into top 5-10 players every year.
Going back to 2018-19 for some context in time, RAPTOR data vs best contested rebounders:

Andre Drummond- best contested rebounder = 33rd best player
Anthony Davis- second best rebounder-6th best player by RAPTOR
Capela- 3rd by nba.com--- 43rd best player raptor
Whiteside- 4th by tracking---39th best player by raptor
Embiid-5th--- 5th best player by raptor data
Vuc- 7th-- 21th


Drummond as player sucked, Whiteside was overrated, Capela was never top 50 nba player. But their "niche" as defensvie rebounders specialized at "contested rebounds" all made them top 46 players by RAPTOR data.

Look, once you figure prime Lebron never made top 10 by RAPTOR, you know whole thing is bad joke. Just imagine there is data people actually pay attention to, that claims Demarcus Cousins is better than Lebron. Why? Well... contested rebounds

[Knightro]

I love Suggs but the whole not being able to dribble every other possession thing is an issue. Same issue Oladipo had which is why he ultimately couldn't be ran at that position full time. It's also not easy to invest that much time into that important of a position if you can't do one of the most important things that position requires at least at a dependable level.

But the Magic weren’t good when they drafted Suggs, ya know? If there was ever a time to live through the certain ugliness of him attempting to develop as a lead guard, they had it at that point.

Unfortunately, it’s not easy when you have 2 or 3 other guys - who to be clear might not be good either - fighting for the same minutes.

[Skybox]

This isn't even factoring in 22-year-old Jalen Suggs who's best position *could* have been point guard, but has been forced to move to a pure shooting guard role because of roster construction.

I love Suggs but the whole not being able to dribble every other possession thing is an issue. Same issue Oladipo had which is why he ultimately couldn't be ran at that position full time. It's also not easy to invest that much time into that important of a position if you can't do one of the most important things that position requires at least at a dependable level.

That’s a great comp…and I feel like Suggs will also have a real “awakening” like Oladipo, and mash the offensive pedal down…hopefully, still in ORL when it happens

[Knightro]

The point really isn’t whether Suggs is good or bad.

The point is the roster construction has and continues to not put guys in an optimal situation to develop.

And yes, it’s possible that some of these guys wouldn’t have developed anyway, but that’s not a reasonable excuse.

[VFX]

Overall, Suggs fandom is based on things that he did against weak competition at college, where he was 3rd best player at. His legacy is half court, off glass shot.
Since his arrival in nba, he is mediocre bench player and one man tank as starter (in rookie season).

Only reason why people project him at SG is because Magic have like 12 point guards better than him, and at SG they have nobody. But that notion alone, doesn't make him shooting guard. hell, Cole is way better "shooting guard" than Sugggs.

False.

Suggs is a hard worker. He increased his draft stock in college compared to Cade and Green who were always projected highly while accomplishing less before they were drafted. Would you rather have either of those players or even Barnes? None of them would make sense in the current lineup let alone Giddey.

There’s an importance in knowing you have a guy that is going to guard the other teams best back court player whenever he’s on the floor. Don’t discount defense and plays that determine the outcome of games.

His offense became better at the end of last season when he was finally healthy for a stretch. I appreciate Orlando having players with toughness for the first time in a decade. There is a reason why every Magic trade proposal I see on the TnT thread from other fans involves him.

[bigdogdylan5]

Ok so we’re really saying we should have taken Giddey over Suggs? That is so Monday morning QBing it’s hilarious. The reaction ironically would have been like the Jett Howard pick but way worse. I have always thought we as a board are too hard on Suggs maybe because we expected a star out of the box which was dumb. Especially after he fell to us and we were excited and Franz who everyone hated is trending to be that star. But this is his 3rd year and it will be critical for him. I mean Oladipo is the an interesting case to keep in mind with him. Development is not always a linear line up or down sometimes it can be steady and then go exponential. The kid is 22 and is like 3 years away from his prime and already defensively he looks like he could make multiple defensive first teams in his career already. If the shot keeps trending up we’re talking a Jrue Holliday or an elite role guy on a championship contender. An elite skill role player at the 5th pick in the draft is not a bust and he still has plenty of room for development.

[pepe1991]

The point really isn’t whether Suggs is good or bad.

The point is the roster construction has and continues to not put guys in an optimal situation to develop.

And yes, it’s possible that some of these guys wouldn’t have developed anyway, but that’s not a reasonable excuse.

Your 5th overall pick should be way better than Bruce Brown wannabe. Just fact of life.

[pepe1991]

Overall, Suggs fandom is based on things that he did against weak competition at college, where he was 3rd best player at. His legacy is half court, off glass shot.
Since his arrival in nba, he is mediocre bench player and one man tank as starter (in rookie season).

Only reason why people project him at SG is because Magic have like 12 point guards better than him, and at SG they have nobody. But that notion alone, doesn't make him shooting guard. hell, Cole is way better "shooting guard" than Sugggs.

False.

Suggs is a hard worker. He increased his draft stock in college compared to Cade and Green who were always projected highly while accomplishing less before they were drafted. Would you rather have either of those players or even Barnes? None of them would make sense in the current lineup let alone Giddey.

There’s an importance in knowing you have a guy that is going to guard the other teams best back court player whenever he’s on the floor. Don’t discount defense and plays that determine the outcome of games.

His offense became better at the end of last season when he was finally healthy for a stretch. I appreciate Orlando having players with toughness for the first time in a decade. There is a reason why every Magic trade proposal I see on the TnT thread from other fans involves him.

Jalen Suggs was overrated college point guard, who wasn't even capable playing PG there ,but instad of actually evaluating things he WAS doing he was evaluated based on things scouts/fans/GMs thought he could be doing under different circumstances.

His college team went 31-1.
He wasn't leading scorer. He wasn't second leading scorer.
He wasn't even leading assists guy , despite fact his usage was 25% compared to Nembhard's 14,7%
He didn't lead team in BPM ( he was actually 4th)
He didn't lead team in Win share ( 4th)

He shot just 33,7% for 3 ,on rather mediocre 74% FTs.

But on top of all this, they NEVER played pick&roll. And we had various , albet creative, excuses why. Real reason why was in front of us. Suggs can't play pick&roll.

In rookie year, his pick& roll percentile was epic 13th.
In sophmore year his pick&roll percentile was rather bad 53th ( if you think that's not bad, RJ Hampton was at 60 and Franz is at 58th on double of attemps).

There’s an importance in knowing you have a guy that is going to guard the other teams best back court player whenever he’s on the floor. Don’t discount defense and plays that determine the outcome of games.

Defense and guards... Jamal Murray and KCP, against Struss and Gabe Vincent in finals. Yep, i'm 100% overlooking that. Knowing best guard of a decade(s) and one of best PGs to ever play, Curry, is big defensive liability, after biggest trade of offseason is DPOY candidate for defensive liability swap, where everybody considers Bucks "winners".

His offense became better at the end of last season when he was finally healthy for a stretch.

When? He shot 42/31,7 for whole month of March. Your alleged "positive" sample includes 5 games in April, playing against deep benches. Pss don't tell anybody, but in 3 out of last 5 games, Magic faced teams without starters of opposing teams playing, witch means Suggs faced bunch of deep bench bodies,and in other 2 games where he faced *nba* competition he shot 6-15 FG on 1-8 for 3 and cumulative 1 assist. What a thrill. But hey ,he was waaaay better than Dean Wade, in 24 points beatdown of Cavs bench over Magic bench players

There is a reason why every Magic trade proposal I see on the TnT thread from other fans involves him

Same reason why for 4 years every Magic trade included Cam Reddish. People love to project previous expetations as still realistic scenario for underachiving players who they deem as cheap. Ask them will they trade lottery pick for him , like 5th pick maybe?

TOday, if you line up Josh Okogie or any other *try hard -but no talent * guard, and Suggs, you will struggle to find difference. Playing hard isn't skill. Lottery isn't there to draft for toughness and throwing yourself for a ball. For two years, he is waste of 5th overall pick. If third year changes that, cool, great for us. But let's not project him into something he isn't . To me, today, it's simply hypocritical to throw Fultz under a ringer and have blind homer spot for guard who shoots basically worst than him, and also can't dribble the ball and also can't pass. But unlike Fultz he is our own lottery investment.

[Residual-Heat]

We get he's inefficient. So are Green, Giddey, Barnes and Cade. Suggs played well last season in respect to his draft class. We've already determined what he's going to be when he has barely played a 100 games, and has struggled with injuries?

[basketballRob]

We get he's inefficient. So are Green, Giddey, Barnes and Cade. Suggs played well last season in respect to his draft class. We've already determined what he's going to be when he has barely played a 100 games, and has struggled with injuries?

Of course they are. They've already determined what type of players the rookies will be before they've played a game.

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[eyriq]

I don't know, Suggs was one of the better college prospects we've seen in the last decade. He was a steal at the spot we got him. That it hasn't translated as linearly as we'd like to see isn't a critique of the draft evaluation process. This is a huge season for suggs.

[Knightro]

Your 5th overall pick should be way better than Bruce Brown wannabe. Just fact of life.

I'm not arguing this. I'm certainly not saying Suggs shouldn't be better. He absolutely should be better.

I'm simply saying the way the organization goes about roster construction really hasn't done many of these guys any favors.

The Magic went 21-51 the year before Suggs arrived. It was 100% certain they were going to be god awful in Mosley's first year as coach.

So why on earth did they draft a guard 5th overall, but then opt to start a non-lotto pick who was coming off a horrific rookie season in Cole Anthony at point guard from the very first game?

Would it have gone awful with Suggs at point guard? Almost assuredly so, but who cares? That season was going to be a tanking mess regardless, so the focus should have been trying to maximize your two high lotto picks (Suggs/Franz) and best setting them up for future success.

This is one of the problem with trying to develop a bunch of guys who all need to play the same position all at the same time.

It's going to happen this year with Anthony Black too. Just because the guy has size and *can* defend some 2s and 3s doesn't mean that's what he *should* be doing.

But there's not really any point guard minutes to be had, and they want to compete too.

[JojoSlimbiid]

Can someone show me an example of a supposed point guard who couldn't dribble the ball for more than 2 seconds all of the sudden being able to learn how to navigate life as a full-time point guard in their career? That is wild.

All because a guy needs to validate his obsession over Fultz 24/7