Official 2024-2025 Training Camp Thread - Roster Announced

[SOUL]

It’s like people are buying into this weird quasi development approach from Weltman. Is Orlando competing ? Are they developing players? Are they half-assing both? There really aren’t enough minutes to do both and spending first round picks on deep bench players seems counter intuitive in both approaches.

Late first round picks are literally meant to be bench players though? Hell, even late lottery guys like Hawkins, Dick might be in the same sort of position as Jett this next year if he starts getting 15-20 minutes if he wins it over Gary. I wholly disagree with the approach you and Knightro talk about where it seems we have to either have 15 veterans or all young guys. What is the rush?

Young players are cheap and cost-controlled and can be valuable in trades. That's why they stay on the team even when they're not given minutes. Pels just did it with Dyson Daniels to get Murray.

It makes sense how rookies earn their way into playing time on teams that are deep. It's pretty applicable to most sports too, Mahomes sat an entire rookie year, Rodgers sat three.. I'd say if that can apply to Hall of Famers, it can apply to guys we probably hope will be great bench players or future solid starters.

[VFX]

It’s like people are buying into this weird quasi development approach from Weltman. Is Orlando competing ? Are they developing players? Are they half-assing both? There really aren’t enough minutes to do both and spending first round picks on deep bench players seems counter intuitive in both approaches.

Late first round picks are literally meant to be bench players though? Hell, even late lottery guys like Hawkins, Dick might be in the same sort of position as Jett this next year if he starts getting 15-20 minutes if he wins it over Gary. I wholly disagree with the approach you and Knightro talk about where it seems we have to either have 15 veterans or all young guys. What is the rush?

Young players are cheap and cost-controlled and can be valuable in trades. That's why they stay on the team even when they're not given minutes. Pels just did it with Dyson Daniels to get Murray.

It makes sense how rookies earn their way into playing time on teams that are deep. It's pretty applicable to most sports too, Mahomes sat an entire rookie year, Rodgers sat three.. I'd say if that can apply to Hall of Famers, it can apply to guys we probably hope will be great bench players or future solid starters.

You keep listing examples of guys that are entering the league at 19 / 20 riding on potential and intriguing skill sets. I’m talking about a guy that can play now. That was the whole point of drafting him. Which is why teams weren’t high on a player like Knecht if you aren’t expecting them to contribute to a contender.

The point is that you have to find minutes for these guys over prioritizing someone like Gary Harris or even Cole to a lesser extent. Why? Because you have to increase asset value even if they aren’t part of your overall plan. Josh Giddey is the most recent example of this. You have to play Dyson Daniels 23mpg last season, to move him for positive assets, even if he wasn’t amazing.

At some level the FO has to prioritize what will get them the maximum value short and long term. Which is why re-signing Gary Harris was such a laughable move this offseason. Continuing to bury your investments and never finding value for them is why this organization isn’t taken seriously for a many number of years. Boston and OKC have no problem whatsoever cultivating and consolidating assets they have developed for years. Orlando isn’t even on stage one of that process.

So actually yes. Burying TDS, Jett, and even AB last season is very on par with what Orlando does. Playing Franz, Paolo, and Suggs minutes in previous seasons was just too much for them to stomach before throwing vets into the mix for a first round exit team. God forbid they find a way to expand the teams ceiling without handing washed role players like KCP nice fat contracts.

[SOUL]

So actually yes. Burying TDS, Jett, and even AB last season is very on par with what Orlando does. Playing Franz, Paolo, and Suggs minutes in previous seasons was just too much for them to stomach before throwing vets into the mix for a first round exit team. God forbid they find a way to expand the teams ceiling without handing washed role players like KCP nice fat contracts.

Something tells me playing these guys and having a worse team would annoy you too. You're acting as if playing young guys means we have to invest in playing every single young guy. It doesn't work like that, at all.

It's really common sense that rookies in the 3rd/4th year of drafting are going to have less minutes available than the first few years, and no, you don't have to trade them immediately or play them 20+ minutes from the gate.

Also KCP washed role player?:? Stop.

[eyriq]

I wholly disagree with the approach you and Knightro talk about where it seems we have to either have 15 veterans or all young guys.

Haha, this is a great way to frame their argument. Calling TDS a bust if AB or Jett or both get rotation minutes over him because it's somehow obvious that he was drafted specifically to get rotation minutes over AB or Jett is a take I've never liked.

Also, while it's nice that TDS doesn't need to be a development project, it doesn't mean he is more ready to contribute than AB or Jett. He was our best summer league player, I'll give you that, but AB and Jett both had strong summer league performances and have more experience in the Magic system.

So not only is it wrong to assume that all our decisions should be weighted towards win-now (we are still developing), but it is also wrong to assume that TDS is able to contribute more to winning than AB or Jett.

[SOUL]

I mean, also front offices just don't clear the roster of an actual good bench to put all the eggs in rookies and second year guys because... we drafted them? We don't owe every drafted player 20+ minutes and a starting spot, especially when we have like 8 drafted guys on the roster. If they're as good as we think they can be, it will come.

All we're hoping for beyond Suggs, Franz, Paolo are role players. Bonus if they can become starters (mostly just Black), otherwise, I don't see the whole "why did we sign KCP" angle at all. Jett seemed more than happy to hone his skills in the G-League and he alluded to his defense being really bad and working hard on it, while Goga re-signed literally because of the vibe of the team and hearing words of encouragement from WCJ, while all year people were arguing that he would leave because he wanted to start or play more (including myself). All of these guys we thought would be bothered by either no minutes or spotty minutes seem in very high spirits and Black has seemingly worked himself into a permanent (bench) role that can increase with his play.

They picked a direction. They clearly want a deep team who can consolidate when needed either with vets or young guys, whichever seem like the right choice to make, depending on who is available and who is more valuable. A lot of teams are doing this.

[VFX]

So actually yes. Burying TDS, Jett, and even AB last season is very on par with what Orlando does. Playing Franz, Paolo, and Suggs minutes in previous seasons was just too much for them to stomach before throwing vets into the mix for a first round exit team. God forbid they find a way to expand the teams ceiling without handing washed role players like KCP nice fat contracts.

Something tells me playing these guys and having a worse team would annoy you too. You're acting as if playing young guys means we have to invest in playing every single young guy. It doesn't work like that, at all.

It's really common sense that rookies in the 3rd/4th year of drafting are going to have less minutes available than the first few years, and no, you don't have to trade them immediately or play them 20+ minutes from the gate.

Also KCP washed role player?:? Stop.

There’s a thing called context.

Is the guy in question a lottery pick?
Or is he Chuma Okeke / Caleb Houstan?

Obviously you play the former and who cares about the latter. You are being willfully dense if you believe Orlando is in a position, in the current iteration of this roster, as successful enough to be stashing lottery picks deep into the bench.

Then people will claim that TDS was a great draft pick mere months ago because Orlando “doesn’t need more youth to develop”. Well if that’s the case why isn’t he getting minutes? Does he need to develop?

It’s called asset mismanagement.

And yes. KCP was an absolute nobody journeyman role player that bounced around the league until he landed next to the best player in the nba. He was a 5th option averaging 10ppg. Reggie Jackson averaged more for them last season. And yeah, his defense is good but we already had Suggs, who is better. He’s also $23m which is the cost of Cole Anthony x2.

To respond to your other post. No. It’s not about “all youth” or “all vets” in rolling out a lineup. It’s about being consistent with what your plan is moving forward. AB and Jett must develop as assets for on court contributions or trade possibilities. They are squandered entirely if not. Mo Bamba comes to mind. Do they actually suck? Then move them.

You play your 2024 first round 24 year old pick because the alternative was trading it away or adding more youth to develop. Oh they are choosing to do none of the above? Wow that’s dumb. Might as well watch terrible 3 guard lineups instead because… yknow… reasons….

And no, choosing not to make decisions isn’t “picking a lane” re-signing everyone possible hoping for a consolidation trade out of the blue isn’t realistic. It’s sad to say, but the crux of this entire argument comes down to Gary Harris. Re-signing him was an absolute mistake.

[zaymon]

I am not even sure what is the argument ?
That you must give 20+ minutes to every player you drafted in the lottery or trade them after first season?
That you cant have veteran players around young core ?
That cheap veteran on short deal is our biggest problem?
Bamba was actually proving that giving minutes to lottery picks for free doesnt end well in most cases. If we want to learn on mistakes we should create environment where young players earn minutes by training hard and being better than veterans. Thats exactly why we resigned Gary Harris. At least Weltman learns on his mistakes. Like our players said in the interviews iron sharpens iron. Its also not that Black/Howard are even half as unhappy about their development as some people here. You would think they would know if their carrier was mismanaged.

[VFX]

I am not even sure what is the argument ?
That you must give 20+ minutes to every player you drafted in the lottery or trade them after first season?
That you cant have veteran players around young core ?
That cheap veteran on short deal is our biggest problem?
Bamba was actually proving that giving minutes to lottery picks for free doesnt end well in most cases. If we want to learn on mistakes we should create environment where young players earn minutes by training hard and being better than veterans. Thats exactly why we resigned Gary Harris. At least Weltman learns on his mistakes. Like our players said in the interviews iron sharpens iron. Its also not that Black/Howard are even half as unhappy about their development as some people here. You would think they would know if their carrier was mismanaged.

Pretty simple to understand if you think about it for more than 2 seconds.

C Anthony is a vet
M Wagner is a vet
J Isaac is a vet
Goga is a vet at this point

Hell they just signed Corey Joseph to babysit AB and Jett.

The point is that you can field a team without needing a vet at every possible position blocking minutes from rookie contract lottery picks. They didn’t need Gary Harris. We are talking about the second unit here. Not even starting minutes.

So when I see the second unit being comprised of
Cole, Gary, AB, Isaac, and Moe. It looks like **** on paper, doesn’t put AB in a good position to succeed, and further blocks Jett and TDS from obvious minutes. They’ll see the floor in injury minutes. Mosely is just yapping nonsense about “your number getting called” for what? A string of 3-5 games? Mosely playing what he knows illustrates FO asset mismanagement.

[SOUL]

Nobody is "blocked" though?? Even KCP is tradeable if he doesn't work out, but he's already proven to be an elite role player. Suggs, Franz, and Paolo rightfully deserve their starting spots. Gary is on a 2 year/7 AAV mil deal, Mo Wagner on a 2 year/11 AAV mil deal, WCJ was in trade rumors, Cole is tradable.

I mean, or we can just speedrun the Hennigan era and play all the young guys at once again, that worked great.

[VFX]

Nobody is "blocked" though?? Even KCP is tradeable if he doesn't work out, but he's already proven to be an elite role player. Suggs, Franz, and Paolo rightfully deserve their starting spots. Gary is on a 2 year/7 AAV mil deal, Mo Wagner on a 2 year/11 AAV mil deal, WCJ was in trade rumors, Cole is tradable.

I mean, or we can just speedrun the Hennigan era and play all the young guys at once again, that worked great.

You’re correct. Players are tradeable. Nobody is talking about 3 seasons from now. Obviously.

[drsd]

Nobody is talking about 3 seasons from now.

Well: three seasons from now, the Orlando Magic will undoubtedly have a Championship banner hanging high in the lofts.

[msmoore66]

I'm lost, has the season already started, 15 games in and TDS hasn't touched the floor yet or something?

[jibba jones]

Players need to earn minutes to play. If they can’t take minutes then they can’t have them.

There is nothing wrong with having a good bench that’s tough to take minutes from. That’s life on a competitive team, a good team.

The young guys are here to take minutes. Maybe that happens.

If a guy can’t take minutes from Harris than it’s a good thing they have Harris or they’d have to play a guy that couldn’t beat Harris.

[drsd]

Players need to earn minutes to play. If they can’t take minutes then they can’t have them.

There is nothing wrong with having a good bench that’s tough to take minutes from. That’s life on a competitive team, a good team.

The young guys are here to take minutes. Maybe that happens.

If a guy can’t take minutes from Harris than it’s a good thing they have Harris or they’d have to play a guy that couldn’t beat Harris.

The counter argument is that Orlando should take these assets and make a consolidation trade. That Orlando signed Caldwell-Pope, that would actually mean trading Suggs and young assets for a star PG. I cannot see that occurring.

[jibba jones]

Who’s that guy?

Garland

[fendilim]

Read on Twitter

?t=_nhLaMvgcMupN14nhUEcrg&s=19

Wait,

So he is implying Harris doesn’t have a guaranteed spot yet?

Boy, sure hope he doesn’t end up a third stringer… cause its gonna be funny as hell when posters were just saying last week its unlikely he’ll end up a 3rd stringer cause he was a starter in the playoffs… and now he isn’t a lock yet. Madness. LMAO

[zaymon]

Players need to earn minutes to play. If they can’t take minutes then they can’t have them.

There is nothing wrong with having a good bench that’s tough to take minutes from. That’s life on a competitive team, a good team.

The young guys are here to take minutes. Maybe that happens.

If a guy can’t take minutes from Harris than it’s a good thing they have Harris or they’d have to play a guy that couldn’t beat Harris.

The counter argument is that Orlando should take these assets and make a consolidation trade. That Orlando signed Caldwell-Pope, that would actually mean trading Suggs and young assets for a star PG. I cannot see that occurring.

I could counter a counter saying why making a trade when you can just sign your target ?
Making trades just to make fanbase happy doesnt seem like good longterm strategy.

[RichCollab]

Read on Twitter

?t=_nhLaMvgcMupN14nhUEcrg&s=19

Wait,

So he is implying Harris doesn’t have a guaranteed spot yet?

Boy, sure hope he doesn’t end up a third stringer… cause its gonna be funny as hell when posters were just saying last week its unlikely he’ll end up a 3rd stringer cause he was a starter in the playoffs… and now he isn’t a lock yet. Madness. LMAO

Harris is plug and play for continuity. He can play starting/second unit as needed. Still a valuable role for our current team.

Caleb/Jett/TDS still have to earn their minutes/spot.

[yoyojw17]

Players need to earn minutes to play. If they can’t take minutes then they can’t have them.

There is nothing wrong with having a good bench that’s tough to take minutes from. That’s life on a competitive team, a good team.

The young guys are here to take minutes. Maybe that happens.

If a guy can’t take minutes from Harris than it’s a good thing they have Harris or they’d have to play a guy that couldn’t beat Harris.

The counter argument is that Orlando should take these assets and make a consolidation trade. That Orlando signed Caldwell-Pope, that would actually mean trading Suggs and young assets for a star PG. I cannot see that occurring.

I could counter a counter saying why making a trade when you can just sign your target ?
Making trades just to make fanbase happy doesnt seem like good longterm strategy.

Evaluation period ain't over. A lot these players are still growing... But having deep talent can help in the future to make necessary trades or consolidation trades.
But....one of our strong suits last year was our depth and ability to replace players. AB and Giga were moved up from the 3rd string to keep the 2nd unit intact. Injuries come for everyone. The only players that will be super tough to just "slot in" are Paolo and Franz as of now.

For them developing talent and bringing value is important.... And if a need or opportunity arises that they think will help.... Then take it. Though we are capped out.... We can still maintain great flexibility in the trade market..... With all our picks and talent.

[yoyojw17]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DAw9UvrN0Xj/?igsh=MW1hZGpkZWhwanU2MQ==

Saw kamara's workout regiment .... And I'm over here hoping JI is on a similar program... Getting all of those ligaments and tendons strong yet flexible. Haha