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Sure, but he's 9th in total minutes played, Paolo is 7th, yet Paolo is second in leverage and Suggs is 11th.Knightro wrote:eyriq wrote:The top ten in combined points
Franz
Paolo
Black
KCP
WCJ
Cole
TDS
Goga
Moritz
JI
Suggs not making the list is a big blow. I think you can explain a lot of the issues just telling to each player.
You can't ignore than Suggs has only played 35 games compared to 60+ for a lot of the other guys on the list.
eyriq wrote:This demonstrates nicely how bad KCP and Cole have been.
Cost of player developmentKnightro wrote:eyriq wrote:This demonstrates nicely how bad KCP and Cole have been.
And Black
eyriq wrote:Sure, but he's 9th in total minutes played, Paolo is 7th, yet Paolo is second in leverage and Suggs is 11th.Knightro wrote:eyriq wrote:The top ten in combined points
Franz
Paolo
Black
KCP
WCJ
Cole
TDS
Goga
Moritz
JI
Suggs not making the list is a big blow. I think you can explain a lot of the issues just telling to each player.
You can't ignore than Suggs has only played 35 games compared to 60+ for a lot of the other guys on the list.
Suggs might just be another guy.
The evidence that Suggs is just a guy is pretty strong at this point. Injury prone to boot. Probably overpaid, which is exacerbated by him sitting in our third option salary slot.VFX wrote:eyriq wrote:Sure, but he's 9th in total minutes played, Paolo is 7th, yet Paolo is second in leverage and Suggs is 11th.Knightro wrote:
You can't ignore than Suggs has only played 35 games compared to 60+ for a lot of the other guys on the list.
Suggs might just be another guy.
Not looking at games played and having a disingenuous argument like you've solved something.
Wake me up when Anthony Black makes second team all defense. Oh right.. I'll be sleeping forever.
Keep posting Anthony Black delusions of grandeur. Its not like 34 year old reserve Corey Jospeh isnt starting over him currently because he's incapable of actually starting next to Orlando's two max players.
eyriq wrote:The evidence that Suggs is just a guy is pretty strong at this point. Injury prone to boot. Probably overpaid, which is exacerbated by him sitting in our third option salary slot.VFX wrote:eyriq wrote:Sure, but he's 9th in total minutes played, Paolo is 7th, yet Paolo is second in leverage and Suggs is 11th.
Suggs might just be another guy.
Not looking at games played and having a disingenuous argument like you've solved something.
Wake me up when Anthony Black makes second team all defense. Oh right.. I'll be sleeping forever.
Keep posting Anthony Black delusions of grandeur. Its not like 34 year old reserve Corey Jospeh isnt starting over him currently because he's incapable of actually starting next to Orlando's two max players.
VFX wrote:eyriq wrote:The evidence that Suggs is just a guy is pretty strong at this point. Injury prone to boot. Probably overpaid, which is exacerbated by him sitting in our third option salary slot.VFX wrote:
Not looking at games played and having a disingenuous argument like you've solved something.
Wake me up when Anthony Black makes second team all defense. Oh right.. I'll be sleeping forever.
Keep posting Anthony Black delusions of grandeur. Its not like 34 year old reserve Corey Jospeh isnt starting over him currently because he's incapable of actually starting next to Orlando's two max players.
As opposed to what?
There isn’t a real third option on this team better than Suggs. Don’t fool yourself into thinking AB off the bench is that guy.
And yeah, the defense has looking pretty abysmal since Suggs went out. He’s basically made his case being out now that the defense begins and ends with his presence.
Not sure there is a price as a third option that justifies that for this roster and how it is currently constructed.
AB isn’t a starter and he’s “just a guy” because he has zero actual position and his skillset is variable. Role player in every sense of the label.
If AB puts up a season like Suggs did in year 3, THEN we can have a conversation. Until then, this is just a weird crusade to make yourself feel better about this hill you’ve built.
VFX wrote:As opposed to what?
There isn’t a real third option on this team better than Suggs. Don’t fool yourself into thinking AB off the bench is that guy.
And yeah, the defense has looking pretty abysmal since Suggs went out. He’s basically made his case being out now that the defense begins and ends with his presence.
Not sure there is a price as a third option that justifies that for this roster and how it is currently constructed.
AB isn’t a starter and he’s “just a guy” because he has zero actual position and his skillset is variable. Role player in every sense of the label.
If AB puts up a season like Suggs did in year 3, THEN we can have a conversation. Until then, this is just a weird crusade to make yourself feel better about this hill you’ve built.
My AB agenda is essentiallyKnightro wrote:VFX wrote:eyriq wrote:The evidence that Suggs is just a guy is pretty strong at this point. Injury prone to boot. Probably overpaid, which is exacerbated by him sitting in our third option salary slot.
As opposed to what?
There isn’t a real third option on this team better than Suggs. Don’t fool yourself into thinking AB off the bench is that guy.
And yeah, the defense has looking pretty abysmal since Suggs went out. He’s basically made his case being out now that the defense begins and ends with his presence.
Not sure there is a price as a third option that justifies that for this roster and how it is currently constructed.
AB isn’t a starter and he’s “just a guy” because he has zero actual position and his skillset is variable. Role player in every sense of the label.
If AB puts up a season like Suggs did in year 3, THEN we can have a conversation. Until then, this is just a weird crusade to make yourself feel better about this hill you’ve built.
He’s pushing a pro Anthony Black agenda and has since the day he was picked.
And honestly, that’s ok. Everybody has guys they like.
But when it teeters out of the “I really like him” lane and into “actually he doesn’t suck and these other players actually are the ones that suck” is gets a little silly and eyeroll inducing.
eyriq wrote:VFX wrote:As opposed to what?
There isn’t a real third option on this team better than Suggs. Don’t fool yourself into thinking AB off the bench is that guy.
And yeah, the defense has looking pretty abysmal since Suggs went out. He’s basically made his case being out now that the defense begins and ends with his presence.
Not sure there is a price as a third option that justifies that for this roster and how it is currently constructed.
AB isn’t a starter and he’s “just a guy” because he has zero actual position and his skillset is variable. Role player in every sense of the label.
If AB puts up a season like Suggs did in year 3, THEN we can have a conversation. Until then, this is just a weird crusade to make yourself feel better about this hill you’ve built.
As opposed to a player like Booker, Herro, Morant, Young, Maxey, or Ball. It's not directly about AB vs Suggs.
eyriq wrote:My AB agenda is essentially
1. He's a PG
2. His development puts him on pace to be a quality starter
3. His development is on pace with Suggs
4. His archetype is the same as Suggs
VFX wrote:eyriq wrote:VFX wrote:As opposed to what?
There isn’t a real third option on this team better than Suggs. Don’t fool yourself into thinking AB off the bench is that guy.
And yeah, the defense has looking pretty abysmal since Suggs went out. He’s basically made his case being out now that the defense begins and ends with his presence.
Not sure there is a price as a third option that justifies that for this roster and how it is currently constructed.
AB isn’t a starter and he’s “just a guy” because he has zero actual position and his skillset is variable. Role player in every sense of the label.
If AB puts up a season like Suggs did in year 3, THEN we can have a conversation. Until then, this is just a weird crusade to make yourself feel better about this hill you’ve built.
As opposed to a player like Booker, Herro, Morant, Young, Maxey, or Ball. It's not directly about AB vs Suggs.
Booker - #1 or 2 option
Morant - #1
Young - #1
Ball - #1 or 2 option
Herro - #2
Has nothing to do with this conversation. None of those guys, except for maybe Herro, are paid anywhere similarly.
We are talking about Jrue Holiday, Dandre Hunter, Jaden McDaniels kind of players here.
Nobody on this team is surpassing Franz and Paolo as the 1-2, which is why a 3&D specialist that doesn't need the ball and sets the tone for defense is an ideal third option. Some random kid off the bench that has a good game once a month doesn't change that.
You dont have to say Suggs is "just a guy" to be in favor of AB. Has he been riddled with injuries? Yes. That doesnt mean AB is anywhere close to his impact. You are inadvertently making me dislike AB with these takes, which I dont.
The 3-6 dribbles are probably heaves from 3.Knightro wrote:eyriq wrote:My AB agenda is essentially
1. He's a PG
2. His development puts him on pace to be a quality starter
3. His development is on pace with Suggs
4. His archetype is the same as Suggs
1. He's played a lot more on ball point guard this year than his rookie season certainly, but he generally looks much better when he's off the ball and able to do more catch-and-shoot and attack close outs. When they do have him on the ball and attempting to initiate offense for himself and others, he's been poor more than he's been even passable.
Black 0 dribbles: 58% from 2PT, 34% from 3PT
Black 1 dribble: 56% from 2PT, 17% from 3PT
Black 2 dribbles: 35% from 2PT, 33% from 3PT (only 6 attempts all year, 2 makes)
Black 3-6 dribbles: 44% from 2PT, 15% from 3PT
2. He's not shown to be an effective player offensively period. Every single advanced metric out there suggests Black has been one of the worst players in the league bad on offense and not at all impactful to winning. 22nd percentile as a pick and roll ball handler.
3. Debatable at best. Wrong at worst. Suggs Year 2 was much better than Black Year 2 in your beloved Net Points. -13.6 total net points and -0.52 Net Points/100 for Suggs Year 2 to -66.07 and -2.15 for Black.
4. This is the closest one of being true since Black is a defense first guard, but Suggs in Year 1 and 2 was a much more impactful defender and a much higher volume shooter which in Year 3 manifested itself out to Suggs being an effective offensive player as a high volume 3PT shooter.
The two things Black has going for him.
1. He's still very young. Only freshly turned 21 years old.
2. He's clearly good and bordering on very good defensively
Like I know you're gonna cite his .363 free throw rate and all that, but getting to the line effectively is pretty mitigated if your USG% is in the teens and you aren't a guy who is particularly comfortable attacking off the dribble in a non-closeout and non-transition situation.
Knightro wrote:
1. He's played a lot more on ball point guard this year than his rookie season certainly, but he generally looks much better when he's off the ball and able to do more catch-and-shoot and attack close outs. When they do have him on the ball and attempting to initiate offense for himself and others, he's been poor more than he's been even passable.
Black 0 dribbles: 58% from 2PT, 34% from 3PT
Black 1 dribble: 56% from 2PT, 17% from 3PT
Black 2 dribbles: 35% from 2PT, 33% from 3PT (only 6 attempts all year, 2 makes)
Black 3-6 dribbles: 44% from 2PT, 15% from 3PT
2. He's not shown to be an effective player offensively period. Every single advanced metric out there suggests Black has been one of the worst players in the league bad on offense and not at all impactful to winning. 22nd percentile as a pick and roll ball handler.
3. Debatable at best. Wrong at worst. Suggs Year 2 was much better than Black Year 2 in your beloved Net Points. -13.6 total net points and -0.52 Net Points/100 for Suggs Year 2 to -66.07 and -2.15 for Black.
4. This is the closest one of being true since Black is a defense first guard, but Suggs in Year 1 and 2 was a much more impactful defender and a much higher volume shooter which in Year 3 manifested itself out to Suggs being an effective offensive player as a high volume 3PT shooter.
The two things Black has going for him.
1. He's still very young. Only freshly turned 21 years old.
2. He's clearly good and bordering on very good defensively
Like I know you're gonna cite his .363 free throw rate and all that, but getting to the line effectively is pretty mitigated if your USG% is in the teens and you aren't a guy who is particularly comfortable attacking off the dribble in a non-closeout and non-transition situation.
eyriq wrote:Knightro wrote:
1. He's played a lot more on ball point guard this year than his rookie season certainly, but he generally looks much better when he's off the ball and able to do more catch-and-shoot and attack close outs. When they do have him on the ball and attempting to initiate offense for himself and others, he's been poor more than he's been even passable.
Black 0 dribbles: 58% from 2PT, 34% from 3PT
Black 1 dribble: 56% from 2PT, 17% from 3PT
Black 2 dribbles: 35% from 2PT, 33% from 3PT (only 6 attempts all year, 2 makes)
Black 3-6 dribbles: 44% from 2PT, 15% from 3PT
2. He's not shown to be an effective player offensively period. Every single advanced metric out there suggests Black has been one of the worst players in the league bad on offense and not at all impactful to winning. 22nd percentile as a pick and roll ball handler.
3. Debatable at best. Wrong at worst. Suggs Year 2 was much better than Black Year 2 in your beloved Net Points. -13.6 total net points and -0.52 Net Points/100 for Suggs Year 2 to -66.07 and -2.15 for Black.
4. This is the closest one of being true since Black is a defense first guard, but Suggs in Year 1 and 2 was a much more impactful defender and a much higher volume shooter which in Year 3 manifested itself out to Suggs being an effective offensive player as a high volume 3PT shooter.
The two things Black has going for him.
1. He's still very young. Only freshly turned 21 years old.
2. He's clearly good and bordering on very good defensively
Like I know you're gonna cite his .363 free throw rate and all that, but getting to the line effectively is pretty mitigated if your USG% is in the teens and you aren't a guy who is particularly comfortable attacking off the dribble in a non-closeout and non-transition situation.
1. He needs the reps. AST% is at secondary playmaker levels now, this is good progress in my books.
2. He's already starter quality on defense. PGs take a long time to develop on offense
3. Check out their stats and net points per 100. Second year Suggs is a good comp for second year AB.
4. Suggs is more offensively focused, TBD if he's a better offensive player. He sucked on offense early on too.
Yes he's young. He's also durable, has great size, and is terrific at getting to the line.
Knightro wrote:
But it’s just so painfully transparent.
People disliked Black ever since we drafted him. They look for any reason to pounce on him each game. They don't know how to act when he has a good game other than to dig for reasons to dislike him. For every pro Black poster, there are 10 negative posters.Knightro wrote:eyriq wrote:Knightro wrote:
1. He's played a lot more on ball point guard this year than his rookie season certainly, but he generally looks much better when he's off the ball and able to do more catch-and-shoot and attack close outs. When they do have him on the ball and attempting to initiate offense for himself and others, he's been poor more than he's been even passable.
Black 0 dribbles: 58% from 2PT, 34% from 3PT
Black 1 dribble: 56% from 2PT, 17% from 3PT
Black 2 dribbles: 35% from 2PT, 33% from 3PT (only 6 attempts all year, 2 makes)
Black 3-6 dribbles: 44% from 2PT, 15% from 3PT
2. He's not shown to be an effective player offensively period. Every single advanced metric out there suggests Black has been one of the worst players in the league bad on offense and not at all impactful to winning. 22nd percentile as a pick and roll ball handler.
3. Debatable at best. Wrong at worst. Suggs Year 2 was much better than Black Year 2 in your beloved Net Points. -13.6 total net points and -0.52 Net Points/100 for Suggs Year 2 to -66.07 and -2.15 for Black.
4. This is the closest one of being true since Black is a defense first guard, but Suggs in Year 1 and 2 was a much more impactful defender and a much higher volume shooter which in Year 3 manifested itself out to Suggs being an effective offensive player as a high volume 3PT shooter.
The two things Black has going for him.
1. He's still very young. Only freshly turned 21 years old.
2. He's clearly good and bordering on very good defensively
Like I know you're gonna cite his .363 free throw rate and all that, but getting to the line effectively is pretty mitigated if your USG% is in the teens and you aren't a guy who is particularly comfortable attacking off the dribble in a non-closeout and non-transition situation.
1. He needs the reps. AST% is at secondary playmaker levels now, this is good progress in my books.
2. He's already starter quality on defense. PGs take a long time to develop on offense
3. Check out their stats and net points per 100. Second year Suggs is a good comp for second year AB.
4. Suggs is more offensively focused, TBD if he's a better offensive player. He sucked on offense early on too.
Yes he's young. He's also durable, has great size, and is terrific at getting to the line.
Ultimately, I just find this whole deflect, deny, defuse routine around Black to be awfully silly.
And like the other guy said, the way you go about it is so goofy to the point it come off intellectually dishonest because we know you’re not a dumb guy. It is actually making other people who aren’t inclined to dislike Black to actually dislike him.
It’s possible to be a fan of a player without essentially saying positive things about the player that are pretty much blatantly untrue. Or at least willfully ignoring the very obviously bad things.
“Oh yeah Net Points is the new hotness. It blows EPM and everything else out of the water!”
*gets pointed out that Net Points has Anthony Black ranked outside of the TOP FIVE HUNDRED NBA players this season*
“Oh well… Suggs was bad at that age too! Black is just learning!”
And obviously these aren’t actual quotes they’re just paraphrased from dozens of discussions.
But it’s just so painfully transparent.
basketballRob wrote:People disliked Black ever since we drafted him. They look for any reason to pounce on him each game. They don't know how to act when he has a good game other than to dig for reasons to dislike him. For every pro Black poster, there are 10 negative posters.Knightro wrote:eyriq wrote:
1. He needs the reps. AST% is at secondary playmaker levels now, this is good progress in my books.
2. He's already starter quality on defense. PGs take a long time to develop on offense
3. Check out their stats and net points per 100. Second year Suggs is a good comp for second year AB.
4. Suggs is more offensively focused, TBD if he's a better offensive player. He sucked on offense early on too.
Yes he's young. He's also durable, has great size, and is terrific at getting to the line.
Ultimately, I just find this whole deflect, deny, defuse routine around Black to be awfully silly.
And like the other guy said, the way you go about it is so goofy to the point it come off intellectually dishonest because we know you’re not a dumb guy. It is actually making other people who aren’t inclined to dislike Black to actually dislike him.
It’s possible to be a fan of a player without essentially saying positive things about the player that are pretty much blatantly untrue. Or at least willfully ignoring the very obviously bad things.
“Oh yeah Net Points is the new hotness. It blows EPM and everything else out of the water!”
*gets pointed out that Net Points has Anthony Black ranked outside of the TOP FIVE HUNDRED NBA players this season*
“Oh well… Suggs was bad at that age too! Black is just learning!”
And obviously these aren’t actual quotes they’re just paraphrased from dozens of discussions.
But it’s just so painfully transparent.
Black is a very good young player. Players like him don't walk through the door every day. You guys just need to open your eyes
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