EXTEND WELTMAN

[OrlChamps2030]

I know the premise of this thread is slightly troll but I'll take the bait.. I've been critical of Weltman (particularly: Inactivity on trade market, running out a terrible offense year after year, holding onto players too long, having your starting PGs as Fultz and Cory Joseph in back-to-back playoff runs, wasting draft picks year after year, general lack of creativity) but I've also given praise for his good moves (drafting Paolo, Franz, Suggs).

Totally willing to eat crow if the team takes a big step forward this year.. but.. ya know.. the games have to actually be played? There's offseason champions every year, ask 76ers fans how their regular season went compared to the offseason. Why wouldn't you wait to extend Weltman until after we see the on-court product? Lets start by winning a playoff series.



RE: One of the best young cores with 3 under 23 starters ever

I actually can't tell if this part is troll or not. How can you be the best in history at anything without winning a playoff series? Lol

There was once a young team that reached the Conference Finals, taking down the #1 seed on the road and losing to the eventual champs in 6 in the ECF. Only 6 different players started for them in the playoffs - 4 of them were under 23. This team was the 2020-2021 Atlanta Hawks. This is the team that future generations will talk about as the pinnacle of young talented teams.. jk.. but seriously where would this team rank in your all-time "young cores with 3 starters under 23" rankings?

[Knightro]

Let’s be real bro. The only thing toxic is everyone’s collective disagreeability and refusal to accept other opinions. We’re ALL guilty of it.

Question is, do you want to fight for reasons to be pessimistic, or hopeful?

I don't think it's helpful for posters to oversell things or perhaps more specifically treat things like accomplishments that haven't actually occurred yet.

Optimism is fine. But making things out to be far beyond what they actually are in reality isn't great IMO.

So optimism is fine, as long as it fits your standards? That sounds less like objectivity and more like gatekeeping.

You don’t have to share the optimism, but trying to police it just proves the point.

If I was “policing” anything I’d actually moderate some of this back and forth nonsense that goes on.

I personally find it a bit annoying, but ultimately I could care less.

[eyriq]

I know the premise of this thread is slightly troll but I'll take the bait.. I've been critical of Weltman (particularly: Inactivity on trade market, running out a terrible offense year after year, holding onto players too long, having your starting PGs as Fultz and Cory Joseph in back-to-back playoff runs, wasting draft picks year after year, general lack of creativity) but I've also given praise for his good moves (drafting Paolo, Franz, Suggs).

Totally willing to eat crow if the team takes a big step forward this year.. but.. ya know.. the games have to actually be played? There's offseason champions every year, ask 76ers fans how their regular season went compared to the offseason. Why wouldn't you wait to extend Weltman until after we see the on-court product? Lets start by winning a playoff series.



RE: One of the best young cores with 3 under 23 starters ever

I actually can't tell if this part is troll or not. How can you be the best in history at anything without winning a playoff series? Lol

There was once a young team that reached the Conference Finals, taking down the #1 seed on the road and losing to the eventual champs in 6 in the ECF. Only 6 different players started for them in the playoffs - 4 of them were under 23. This team was the 2020-2021 Atlanta Hawks. This is the team that future generations will talk about as the pinnacle of young talented teams.. jk.. but seriously where would this team rank in your all-time "young cores with 3 starters under 23" rankings?

That 2021 Hawks team was a great young story. They had a weighted average age of 23.2 for their top three most-played players and won 56.9 percent of their games. That puts them in the 86th percentile for under-24 cores in NBA history.

The 2024 Magic? They posted a better win percentage at 57.3 with a top three player age average of just 21.6. That puts them in the 87th percentile and ahead of that Hawks team by both age and performance. No playoff series win yet, but let’s not pretend that alone defines future value or ceiling. The question is about trajectory, not final outcome.

If anything, your Hawks example strengthens the point. A young core with the right structure, timing, and health can make noise fast. Orlando’s core is younger, bigger, more versatile defensively, and has a clearer team identity. Pretending it’s outrageous to see high upside here says more about your aversion to current success than any flaw in the argument.

We’ll see what happens when the games are played. But acting like we have to sit in silence until a playoff round is won does not reflect how team building works. The process matters. The indicators are strong. The excitement is earned.

[AdamTheGreek]

Summer job is not done yet.

[Fortune Teller]

Let’s be real bro. The only thing toxic is everyone’s collective disagreeability and refusal to accept other opinions. We’re ALL guilty of it.

Question is, do you want to fight for reasons to be pessimistic, or hopeful?

I don't think it's helpful for posters to oversell things or perhaps more specifically treat things like accomplishments that haven't actually occurred yet.

Optimism is fine. But making things out to be far beyond what they actually are in reality isn't great IMO.

So optimism is fine, as long as it fits your standards? That sounds less like objectivity and more like gatekeeping.

You don’t have to share the optimism, but trying to police it just proves the point.

Whatever it is you are doing isn't even optimism. How many times have you called them a "47-win team" to support your agenda? Like, you know they didn't win 47 games last season. That's precisely one of the reasons why Jeff's seat was so hot going into this summer, because they regressed, finished at .500 and were a play-in team with massive roster holes. Yet here you are, calling them a 47-win team in 3 different posts in this thread, trying to gaslight us like we're stupid. Just like saying AB is OBVIOUSLY the point guard of the future and if you don't see that then you're not paying attention or sleeping in class or some goofy crap like that. That's not even optimism man, it's just weird.

Fact: Jeff has been here 8 years. This is his 9th offseason.
Fact: The Magic are a .500 team that lost 4-1 in the first round of the playoffs.
Fact: The Magic have never gotten out of the first round in Jeff's tenure.
Fact: The Magic were dead last in the NBA in 3PT% and 28th in scoring last season.
Fact: Jeff traded 4 first-round picks for Desmond Bane.

Great. So let's see how it goes. But there are no results other than wins and losses, so I'm not sure why you keep saying "you can't argue with the results". Trades and free agent signings are not results, I hope we go to the Finals. We all do. We're Magic fans. But doing victory laps when no other fanbase in the league would be happy with this dude's cumulative portfolio over the past 8+ years is embarrassing. He probably would've been fired 3 years ago in a big market with actual sports media.

[OrlChamps2030]

I know the premise of this thread is slightly troll but I'll take the bait.. I've been critical of Weltman (particularly: Inactivity on trade market, running out a terrible offense year after year, holding onto players too long, having your starting PGs as Fultz and Cory Joseph in back-to-back playoff runs, wasting draft picks year after year, general lack of creativity) but I've also given praise for his good moves (drafting Paolo, Franz, Suggs).

Totally willing to eat crow if the team takes a big step forward this year.. but.. ya know.. the games have to actually be played? There's offseason champions every year, ask 76ers fans how their regular season went compared to the offseason. Why wouldn't you wait to extend Weltman until after we see the on-court product? Lets start by winning a playoff series.



RE: One of the best young cores with 3 under 23 starters ever

I actually can't tell if this part is troll or not. How can you be the best in history at anything without winning a playoff series? Lol

There was once a young team that reached the Conference Finals, taking down the #1 seed on the road and losing to the eventual champs in 6 in the ECF. Only 6 different players started for them in the playoffs - 4 of them were under 23. This team was the 2020-2021 Atlanta Hawks. This is the team that future generations will talk about as the pinnacle of young talented teams.. jk.. but seriously where would this team rank in your all-time "young cores with 3 starters under 23" rankings?

That 2021 Hawks team was a great young story. They had a weighted average age of 23.2 for their top three most-played players and won 56.9 percent of their games. That puts them in the 86th percentile for under-24 cores in NBA history.

The 2024 Magic? They posted a better win percentage at 57.3 with a top three player age average of just 21.6. That puts them in the 87th percentile and ahead of that Hawks team by both age and performance. No playoff series win yet, but let’s not pretend that alone defines future value or ceiling. The question is about trajectory, not final outcome.

If anything, your Hawks example strengthens the point. A young core with the right structure, timing, and health can make noise fast. Orlando’s core is younger, bigger, more versatile defensively, and has a clearer team identity. Pretending it’s outrageous to see high upside here says more about your aversion to current success than any flaw in the argument.

We’ll see what happens when the games are played. But acting like we have to sit in silence until a playoff round is won does not reflect how team building works. The process matters. The indicators are strong. The excitement is earned.

Wait what? Your “best young cores ever” metric completely ignores playoff performance?

[eyriq]

I know the premise of this thread is slightly troll but I'll take the bait.. I've been critical of Weltman (particularly: Inactivity on trade market, running out a terrible offense year after year, holding onto players too long, having your starting PGs as Fultz and Cory Joseph in back-to-back playoff runs, wasting draft picks year after year, general lack of creativity) but I've also given praise for his good moves (drafting Paolo, Franz, Suggs).

Totally willing to eat crow if the team takes a big step forward this year.. but.. ya know.. the games have to actually be played? There's offseason champions every year, ask 76ers fans how their regular season went compared to the offseason. Why wouldn't you wait to extend Weltman until after we see the on-court product? Lets start by winning a playoff series.



RE: One of the best young cores with 3 under 23 starters ever

I actually can't tell if this part is troll or not. How can you be the best in history at anything without winning a playoff series? Lol

There was once a young team that reached the Conference Finals, taking down the #1 seed on the road and losing to the eventual champs in 6 in the ECF. Only 6 different players started for them in the playoffs - 4 of them were under 23. This team was the 2020-2021 Atlanta Hawks. This is the team that future generations will talk about as the pinnacle of young talented teams.. jk.. but seriously where would this team rank in your all-time "young cores with 3 starters under 23" rankings?

That 2021 Hawks team was a great young story. They had a weighted average age of 23.2 for their top three most-played players and won 56.9 percent of their games. That puts them in the 86th percentile for under-24 cores in NBA history.

The 2024 Magic? They posted a better win percentage at 57.3 with a top three player age average of just 21.6. That puts them in the 87th percentile and ahead of that Hawks team by both age and performance. No playoff series win yet, but let’s not pretend that alone defines future value or ceiling. The question is about trajectory, not final outcome.

If anything, your Hawks example strengthens the point. A young core with the right structure, timing, and health can make noise fast. Orlando’s core is younger, bigger, more versatile defensively, and has a clearer team identity. Pretending it’s outrageous to see high upside here says more about your aversion to current success than any flaw in the argument.

We’ll see what happens when the games are played. But acting like we have to sit in silence until a playoff round is won does not reflect how team building works. The process matters. The indicators are strong. The excitement is earned.

Wait what? Your “best young cores ever” metric completely ignores playoff performance?

I don’t have playoff data downloaded, so this is based on regular season outcomes. You get what you pay for.

But also, if your argument is that a young core isn’t worth getting excited about until after a playoff run, that’s kind of missing the point. Playoff success matters, but it's a lagging indicator. The point here is to evaluate the underlying foundation of age, production, identity, and trajectory.

By those measures, this group is already historically strong. If they follow it up with postseason success, it won't be a surprise. It will just be confirmation.

[eyriq]

I don't think it's helpful for posters to oversell things or perhaps more specifically treat things like accomplishments that haven't actually occurred yet.

Optimism is fine. But making things out to be far beyond what they actually are in reality isn't great IMO.

So optimism is fine, as long as it fits your standards? That sounds less like objectivity and more like gatekeeping.

You don’t have to share the optimism, but trying to police it just proves the point.

Whatever it is you are doing isn't even optimism. How many times have you called them a "47-win team" to support your agenda? Like, you know they didn't win 47 games last season. That's precisely one of the reasons why Jeff's seat was so hot going into this summer, because they regressed, finished at .500 and were a play-in team with massive roster holes. Yet here you are, calling them a 47-win team in 3 different posts in this thread, trying to gaslight us like we're stupid. Just like saying AB is OBVIOUSLY the point guard of the future and if you don't see that then you're not paying attention or sleeping in class or some goofy crap like that. That's not even optimism man, it's just weird.

Fact: Jeff has been here 8 years. This is his 9th offseason.
Fact: The Magic are a .500 team that lost 4-1 in the first round of the playoffs.
Fact: The Magic have never gotten out of the first round in Jeff's tenure.
Fact: The Magic were dead last in the NBA in 3PT% and 28th in scoring last season.
Fact: Jeff traded 4 first-round picks for Desmond Bane.

Great. So let's see how it goes. But there are no results other than wins and losses, so I'm not sure why you keep saying "you can't argue with the results". Trades and free agent signings are not results, I hope we go to the Finals. We all do. We're Magic fans. But doing victory laps when no other fanbase in the league would be happy with this dude's cumulative portfolio over the past 8+ years is embarrassing. He probably would've been fired 3 years ago in a big market with actual sports media.

You’re throwing out a lot of “facts” without understanding how they connect.

Yes, the Magic went 41-41 last year. But let’s not pretend that’s some smoking gun. This team was top two in defense, had the youngest core in the playoffs, and dealt with significant injuries to their three core players. That is not regression. That is a roster that held ground while still developing.

And yes, I’ve said 47 wins because they just did that the year before with a near-identical core. That is not gaslighting. That is context. If you are ignoring the trajectory to focus on a single-season plateau, you are not analyzing. You are venting.

On the Bane trade: he is 26, elite off-ball, and fixes our biggest weakness. You can complain about the picks, but that is what they are for. The asset war chest was built to make a move like this. It was executed with timing, roster fit, and cap structure in mind. That is smart team-building, not recklessness.

If your standard is "nothing matters until we win a playoff series," fine. But stop acting like that is some universal truth. The rest of us can see a top-tier core forming, supported by clear process, strong identity, and disciplined execution. You do not have to like it. But pretending it is all smoke just makes you sound stuck in 2020.

No one is saying the job is done. But the work so far? It has been good. Better than you will admit.

[OrlChamps2030]

That 2021 Hawks team was a great young story. They had a weighted average age of 23.2 for their top three most-played players and won 56.9 percent of their games. That puts them in the 86th percentile for under-24 cores in NBA history.

The 2024 Magic? They posted a better win percentage at 57.3 with a top three player age average of just 21.6. That puts them in the 87th percentile and ahead of that Hawks team by both age and performance. No playoff series win yet, but let’s not pretend that alone defines future value or ceiling. The question is about trajectory, not final outcome.

If anything, your Hawks example strengthens the point. A young core with the right structure, timing, and health can make noise fast. Orlando’s core is younger, bigger, more versatile defensively, and has a clearer team identity. Pretending it’s outrageous to see high upside here says more about your aversion to current success than any flaw in the argument.

We’ll see what happens when the games are played. But acting like we have to sit in silence until a playoff round is won does not reflect how team building works. The process matters. The indicators are strong. The excitement is earned.

Wait what? Your “best young cores ever” metric completely ignores playoff performance?

I don’t have playoff data downloaded, so this is based on regular season outcomes. You get what you pay for.

But also, if your argument is that a young core isn’t worth getting excited about until after a playoff run, that’s kind of missing the point. Playoff success matters, but it's a lagging indicator. The point here is to evaluate the underlying foundation of age, production, identity, and trajectory.

By those measures, this group is already historically strong. If they follow it up with postseason success, it won't be a surprise. It will just be confirmation.

No wonder you're such a huge Weltman fan. The playoffs don't even exist in your world!

[eyriq]

Wait what? Your “best young cores ever” metric completely ignores playoff performance?

I don’t have playoff data downloaded, so this is based on regular season outcomes. You get what you pay for.

But also, if your argument is that a young core isn’t worth getting excited about until after a playoff run, that’s kind of missing the point. Playoff success matters, but it's a lagging indicator. The point here is to evaluate the underlying foundation of age, production, identity, and trajectory.

By those measures, this group is already historically strong. If they follow it up with postseason success, it won't be a surprise. It will just be confirmation.

No wonder you're such a huge Weltman fan. The playoffs don't even exist in your world!

Playoffs exist just fine. I just don’t need to pretend the foundation is shaky until someone wins a second-round series to feel validated. Some of us can spot a good build without needing the parade first.

[Bensational]

Whatever it is you are doing isn't even optimism. How many times have you called them a "47-win team" to support your agenda? Like, you know they didn't win 47 games last season. That's precisely one of the reasons why Jeff's seat was so hot going into this summer, because they regressed, finished at .500 and were a play-in team with massive roster holes. Yet here you are, calling them a 47-win team in 3 different posts in this thread, trying to gaslight us like we're stupid. Just like saying AB is OBVIOUSLY the point guard of the future and if you don't see that then you're not paying attention or sleeping in class or some goofy crap like that. That's not even optimism man, it's just weird.

Fact: Jeff has been here 8 years. This is his 9th offseason.
Fact: The Magic are a .500 team that lost 4-1 in the first round of the playoffs.
Fact: The Magic have never gotten out of the first round in Jeff's tenure.
Fact: The Magic were dead last in the NBA in 3PT% and 28th in scoring last season.
Fact: Jeff traded 4 first-round picks for Desmond Bane.

You realise the Magic only had Paolo, Franz and Suggs together for 5 games of the season? They also lost their 6th man and leading bench scorer for half the season. And they only saw a 6 game decline in regular season W’s.

So Weltman has been here for 8 seasons, and in that time the Magic have had:

4 x playoff appearances (and first round exits)
Drafted 3 x franchise cornerstone pieces
Made the Magic one of the hottest teams discussed in media today.

He helped push the Vuc-Magic teams to their ceilings after inheriting those rosters, he bottomed out for 2 seasons of tanking and drafted so damn well the team was back into play-in and playoff contention immediately after.

It’s not perfect, but it’s also not enough to warrant such heavy skepticism of every move made or the potential future success of those moves.

Check that history again - got the team to the playoffs 1 in every 2 years, and drafted a franchise cornerstone piece in the years he didn’t. That’s just a fact and a damn good resume upon reflection.

[BadMofoPimp]

Weltman provin' em all wrong!!!

[msmoore66]

I just want a situation where we can all be happy.

[Bensational]

I just want a situation where we can all be happy.

Toxic positivity has entered the chat!

Lol, jk.

[msmoore66]

I just want a situation where we can all be happy.

Toxic positivity has entered the chat!

Lol, jk.

Reported!

Imagine upsetting people with positivity and optimism...

[eyriq]

I just want a situation where we can all be happy.

Toxic positivity has entered the chat!

Lol, jk.

Reported!

Imagine upsetting people with positivity and optimism...

It’s equally shocking to me, trust me. Somehow optimism backed by results is more offensive than blind cynicism.

[eyriq]

This dataset identifies and compares some of the most successful young cores in NBA history, based on regular season performance. Specifically, it ranks teams by win percentage, weighted average age of their top three most-played players, and their corresponding percentile rank among all young cores with similar profiles. I list the top 25 young cores below, there are 182 in total.

This framework does not measure playoff success, but rather serves as a forward-looking indicator of team-building trajectory, sustainability, and upside.

| Team | Year | Win % | Weighted Age | Key Players | Win % Percentile |
| ---- | ---- | ----- | ------------ | -------------------------------------------------- | ---------------- |
| PHO | 2005 | 0.756 | 23.71 | Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion, Amar'e Stoudemire | 1.000 |
| OKC | 2013 | 0.732 | 23.71 | Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Serge Ibaka | 0.995 |
| OKC | 2012 | 0.712 | 22.71 | Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, James Harden | 0.989 |
| OKC | 2024 | 0.695 | 23.35 | Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Chet Holmgren, Lu Dort | 0.984 |
| SAS | 1991 | 0.671 | 23.66 | David Robinson, Sean Elliott, Willie Anderson | 0.973 |
| OKC | 2011 | 0.671 | 21.73 | Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Serge Ibaka | 0.973 |
| BOS | 2018 | 0.671 | 23.60 | Jayson Tatum, Al Horford, Jaylen Brown | 0.973 |
| BOS | 2020 | 0.667 | 22.89 | Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart | 0.962 |
| POR | 2009 | 0.659 | 23.63 | LaMarcus Aldridge, Brandon Roy, Travis Outlaw | 0.953 |
| DEN | 2019 | 0.659 | 22.29 | Nikola Jokić, Jamal Murray, Monte Morris | 0.953 |
| PHI | 2018 | 0.634 | 23.62 | Ben Simmons, Robert Covington, Dario Šarić | 0.945 |
| CLE | 2023 | 0.622 | 23.25 | Evan Mobley, Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell | 0.940 |
| LAL | 1999 | 0.620 | 23.12 | Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, Derek Fisher | 0.934 |
| OKC | 2010 | 0.610 | 21.67 | Kevin Durant, Jeff Green, Russell Westbrook | 0.923 |
| GSW | 1994 | 0.610 | 22.47 | Latrell Sprewell, Billy Owens, Chris Webber | 0.923 |
| ORL | 1994 | 0.610 | 22.89 | Shaquille O'Neal, Anfernee Hardaway, Nick Anderson | 0.923 |
| MIA | 2020 | 0.603 | 23.59 | Bam Adebayo, Duncan Robinson, Kendrick Nunn | 0.912 |
| NJN | 1983 | 0.598 | 22.96 | Buck Williams, Darwin Cook, Albert King | 0.901 |
| BOS | 2019 | 0.598 | 23.22 | Jayson Tatum, Kyrie Irving, Marcus Smart | 0.901 |
| CHI | 2007 | 0.598 | 23.28 | Luol Deng, Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon | 0.901 |
| HOU | 1985 | 0.585 | 23.02 | Ralph Sampson, Rodney McCray, Hakeem Olajuwon | 0.887 |
| IND | 2003 | 0.585 | 23.05 | Jermaine O'Neal, Al Harrington, Metta World Peace | 0.887 |
| CHI | 1989 | 0.573 | 23.77 | Michael Jordan, Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen | 0.874 |
| CHI | 2005 | 0.573 | 22.78 | Kirk Hinrich, Tyson Chandler, Chris Duhon | 0.874 |
| ORL | 2024 | 0.573 | 21.61 | Paolo Banchero, Franz Wagner, Jalen Suggs | 0.874 |
| ATL | 2021 | 0.569 | 23.23 | Kevin Huerter, Trae Young, Clint Capela | 0.863 |

[byeganyo]

Weltman felt the heat and made his moves. Now we wait. Is Bane the player worth putting all you chips in? I dont know. In 10 months this thread can look great for eyriq or ridiculous. If it is the latter at least we will get some entertainment out of it.

[JoshuaPotter]

Weltman felt the heat and made his moves. Now we wait. Is Bane the player worth putting all you chips in? I dont know. In 10 months this thread can look great for eyriq or ridiculous. If it is the latter at least we will get some entertainment out of it.

Are you NOT entertained now?



Well know either way come this time next year. Reality I think is somewhere between well have a good outcome to be hopeful for but no ring. Weltman will likely be extended because of the outcome.

[Knightro]

Playoffs exist just fine. I just don’t need to pretend the foundation is shaky until someone wins a second-round series to feel validated. Some of us can spot a good build without needing the parade first.

How about a first-round series?