Will Vince be a better go-to guy than Hedo?

[BadMofoPimp]

In NJ, Vince had to be the man and demanded double teams. On the Magic, he will have much more room to drive and create for himself and others, like Hedo did. There will be no question about his talents over Hedo once the season begins. The things that I liked about Hedo was his ability to create for those around him and his size in order to shoot over smaller SF's.

[craig01]

So the only we can play is the way we played with Hedo?

That seems to be the thought....lol

[karizma87]

Classic example of a fanbase clinging to scraps of dillusion to comfort them when losing a key piece of their system.

I was thinking the same thing...but then if anyone can replicate what hedo did, it's vince (but with a different style)

the only way to find out is to watch and see, the magic lost what made their system unique but got a great player, real curious as to see how that'll pan out

[ClashCityRocker]

everybody's overlooking possibly the most important stat of all- Vince has missed zero games due to the turkoflu

[Prolific Scorer]

Of course he is..

I know VC is going on 32/33 years of age, but if you look at it we improved in Hedo's main setbacks which are consistancy and effeciency. Not to mention VC is more of a legitimate scorer who can get more shots off (not just running fallaways in hope of a whistle) without sacrificing passing or playmaking.


I understand Hedo was an asset as far as being a 6'10 SF who can run point and get others shots, but VC can do that AND come with it on a night in night out basis.

[ClashCityRocker]

just change the topic to "Why C-Lee is better than Ryan Anderson" so Nets fans won't feel so bad.

[Horcy]

Classic example of a fanbase clinging to scraps of dillusion to comfort them when losing a key piece of their system.

So do you think we are forcing our opinions because we lost Turkoglu?
Dude...we've signed Vince Carter, a proven veteran who can really run the offense of a team. Wouldn't you be happy?
Turkoglu has been a very good player, but he was playing with very good players around too. Have you seen the series against Phila?...
Just compare numbers, Carter is much better than Turk. Since McGrady we don't have a scorer like him

We have no problem to accept when our organization makes a bad move, but definitely this is not a bad move. I think is a very intelligent move by Otis Smith.

[ClashCityRocker]

From a biased point of view (haha) I think Turk's personality has something to do with why we're second guessing the move. Turk is a classic Magic player. Humble, unasuming, kinda goofy. Meanwhile Vince has been known to be brash, cocky and a bit of a prima donna. I'm sure that's not the main factor for any of us but it definately holds some validity as far as I'm concerned.
But then again how many rings have our 'magic-type players' delivered?

[Hilltop]

Classic example of a fanbase clinging to scraps of dillusion to comfort them when losing a key piece of their system.

So you think that Hedo is unquestionably better than Vince?

Not at all but i think that it's foolish and homeristic to simply assume that because Vince is a better individual player then Hedo that he will be a greater asset, a better fit and more impactful to the Magic.

It's also foolish and ignorant to assume that just because Hedo played well in this system, losing him will jeopardize the entire thing all together. It's not as if the Magic have lost their ability to win ballgames just because one player (albeit an integral part of the system) departed.

Vince Carter is NOT Hedo Turkoglu and thus he will NEVER fit into the system in the 'EXACT' same way that Hedo did. Still, it doesn't matter. Vince doesn't need to be Hedo and I don't know why you are all assuming that he does. I doubt that even our head coach is assuming such a thing. Vince Carter is a different player and thus he brings different things to the table. The system will change to accommodate these changes so what are you all fussing about? These compatibility issues are just things haters/doubters/bandwagon fans will bring up to put a negative spin on this trade. I'm getting sick of it.

[The Main Event]

It's also foolish and ignorant to assume that just because Hedo played well in this system, losing him will jeopardize the entire thing all together. It's not as if the Magic have lost their ability to win ballgames just because one player (albeit an integral part of the system) departed.

Vince Carter is NOT Hedo Turkoglu and thus he will NEVER fit into the system in the 'EXACT' same way that Hedo did. Still, it doesn't matter. Vince doesn't need to be Hedo and I don't know why you are all assuming that he does. I doubt that even our head coach is assuming such a thing. Vince Carter is a different player and thus he brings different things to the table. The system will change to accommodate these changes so what are you all fussing about? These compatibility issues are just things haters/doubters/bandwagon fans will bring up to put a negative spin on this trade. I'm getting sick of it.

The changes that will be made in order to accomodate Vince into the system can neither be assumed beneficial or detrimental to the teams success yet, which is exactly what most posters are doing. Assuming that he will come in and be a great fit is just as ignorant as assuming that he will hurt the team. Vince is a ball-dominant player. That's not to say that he is incapable of playing a team game but he is most effective with the ball in his hands. On the other hand, Hedo was not as ball-dominant, which is exactly why he was able to put himself into positions that maximized his strengths. I think that we will have to wait and see how things gel with a player like Vince on the Magic.

[humblebum]

Vince will be a better go to scorer but Turkoglu is a more natural playmaker for others, especially in the P&R.

And ultimately the biggest difference is that there are fewer guys who can match Hedo's quickness, skill and size vs. Carter.

Hedo presented serious matchup difficulties whereas Carter is just a really tough cover, but there are more guys physically capable of defending him.

Most teams have one guy who could defend Hedo/Lewis but almost no team had two guys to defend them. Orlando will miss that.

However, if Carter plays up to his peak potential then I think that Orlando will be just fine given the overall strength of the roster, and the effectiveness of their funnel the opponent to Dwight defense.

[Hilltop]

The changes that will be made in order to accomodate Vince into the system can neither be assumed beneficial or detrimental to the teams success yet, which is exactly what most posters are doing. Assuming that he will come in and be a great fit is just as ignorant as assuming that he will hurt the team.

Again, this 'accommodation' is based on the assumption that the Magic are trying to make Vince, or at least make him play 'Hedo Turkoglu' in every sense of the word/name whichever. It isn't so much about Stan looking for a crack to fill Carter with, I think it goes without saying that when you have added and subtracted a significant amount of players, the system changes all together. I don't see the worry though. So our style of play might change a bit, but it doesn't mean we cannot be effective and win games just the same. I think people have just gotten too used to (and way too comfortable with) the last lineup and gotten too attached to the success we've milked from it. Some people seem overly content in just sticking to that same formula. The thing is, keeping that same core in itself doesn't guarantee success considering we even fell short, and the rest of the league has 'improved' already. Change isn't a bad thing though. It doesn't change the fact that we can be a very good team, just in a different way.

You are right when you say that this is all speculation until the season begins. The word 'improvement' here is used very loosely because pretty much everything is 'on paper' until then. It is really anybody's guess. Nevertheless, to believe that the Magic have made good offseason moves and thus 'improved' is not founded on pure speculation or opinion alone. Vince Carter (albeit without the size of Turkoglu) is superior in virtually every other category which makes him suitable for the go-to guy role. The addition of Ryan Anderson offsets the young talent lost in Courtney Lee and provides the Magic with that extra big man who is capable of spreading the floor. The addition of Brandon Bass eases a lot of the Magic's rebounding/defensive woes at the PF position. He is also much younger, and potentially more productive than Battie (who is earning 6 Million this year lol) at this point in their careers. Obviously no one can predict the future, but the praises are warranted and the moves Otis made can certainly be rationalized. It is not a coincidence that experts, analysts, coaches, GM's, and players alike have acknowledged the 'improvement' or at the very least, the tremendous potential this team will have (whether it will be realized or not).

On the other hand, majority of these posts saying Carter cannot flourish with the Magic, or that he will disrupt some 'delicate balance' , or that Hedo's role is irreplaceable are based on what? If anything it's these statements that are based on pure speculation and opinion alone.

Vince is a ball-dominant player. That's not to say that he is incapable of playing a team game but he is most effective with the ball in his hands. On the other hand, Hedo was not as ball-dominant, which is exactly why he was able to put himself into positions that maximized his strengths. I think that we will have to wait and see how things gel with a player like Vince on the Magic.

I think you described Vince in words you should have described Hedo with. Hedo IS a ball-dominant player and he IS most effective with the ball in his hands. A large part of his success is based on the fact that Stan has given him the leeway to operate, and he has trusted him with the ball in situations that many would say should have gone to the franchise player (in this case Dwight Howard). Stan has practically given him the greenlight to do as he sees fit with the ball and while that leads to some poor decisions and bad shooting nights, it leads to clutch plays and great performances as well.

There is no denying that Hedo is a valuable part of this team and I do not demean anything he has done for this team. The thing is, people just tend to overrate him too much. It's excessive. Besides his size at the SF position (which is one hell of an asset), there is nothing else he brings to the table that Carter cannot. And again, there is really no pressure to live up to a 'Hedo Turkoglu' at all. Vince Carter is his own baksetball player, and his presence brings some other things to the equation that Hedo himself could never.

[mhectorgato]

It's also foolish and ignorant to assume that just because Hedo played well in this system, losing him will jeopardize the entire thing all together. It's not as if the Magic have lost their ability to win ballgames just because one player (albeit an integral part of the system) departed.

Vince Carter is NOT Hedo Turkoglu and thus he will NEVER fit into the system in the 'EXACT' same way that Hedo did. Still, it doesn't matter. Vince doesn't need to be Hedo and I don't know why you are all assuming that he does. I doubt that even our head coach is assuming such a thing. Vince Carter is a different player and thus he brings different things to the table. The system will change to accommodate these changes so what are you all fussing about? These compatibility issues are just things haters/doubters/bandwagon fans will bring up to put a negative spin on this trade. I'm getting sick of it.

The changes that will be made in order to accomodate Vince into the system can neither be assumed beneficial or detrimental to the teams success yet, which is exactly what most posters are doing. Assuming that he will come in and be a great fit is just as ignorant as assuming that he will hurt the team. Vince is a ball-dominant player. That's not to say that he is incapable of playing a team game but he is most effective with the ball in his hands. On the other hand, Hedo was not as ball-dominant, which is exactly why he was able to put himself into positions that maximized his strengths. I think that we will have to wait and see how things gel with a player like Vince on the Magic.

[The Main Event]

It's also foolish and ignorant to assume that just because Hedo played well in this system, losing him will jeopardize the entire thing all together. It's not as if the Magic have lost their ability to win ballgames just because one player (albeit an integral part of the system) departed.

Vince Carter is NOT Hedo Turkoglu and thus he will NEVER fit into the system in the 'EXACT' same way that Hedo did. Still, it doesn't matter. Vince doesn't need to be Hedo and I don't know why you are all assuming that he does. I doubt that even our head coach is assuming such a thing. Vince Carter is a different player and thus he brings different things to the table. The system will change to accommodate these changes so what are you all fussing about? These compatibility issues are just things haters/doubters/bandwagon fans will bring up to put a negative spin on this trade. I'm getting sick of it.

The changes that will be made in order to accomodate Vince into the system can neither be assumed beneficial or detrimental to the teams success yet, which is exactly what most posters are doing. Assuming that he will come in and be a great fit is just as ignorant as assuming that he will hurt the team. Vince is a ball-dominant player. That's not to say that he is incapable of playing a team game but he is most effective with the ball in his hands. On the other hand, Hedo was not as ball-dominant, which is exactly why he was able to put himself into positions that maximized his strengths. I think that we will have to wait and see how things gel with a player like Vince on the Magic.

[mhectorgato]

The changes that will be made in order to accomodate Vince into the system can neither be assumed beneficial or detrimental to the teams success yet, which is exactly what most posters are doing. Assuming that he will come in and be a great fit is just as ignorant as assuming that he will hurt the team. Vince is a ball-dominant player. That's not to say that he is incapable of playing a team game but he is most effective with the ball in his hands. On the other hand, Hedo was not as ball-dominant, which is exactly why he was able to put himself into positions that maximized his strengths. I think that we will have to wait and see how things gel with a player like Vince on the Magic.

The reason for that was that your statement was way off-base.

If you've been around this board during game threads you'd have seen the use of , , , , etc with regards to the way the offense stalled when Hedo got the ball - mostly in the 4th quarter. Prior to that, a good part of hte times he played in the flow of the offense when he put up "smart" jumpshots.

Many times he'd put the ball on the floor, jab step after jab step then wind up taking step back 20ft contested jumpshots. This would stall the offense. This is because he was ball dominant.

In effect your statement was far from the truth, thus the (and a more detailed explination from Hilltop).

[G_MoNeY]

From a biased point of view (haha) I think Turk's personality has something to do with why we're second guessing the move. Turk is a classic Magic player. Humble, unasuming, kinda goofy. Meanwhile Vince has been known to be brash, cocky and a bit of a prima donna. I'm sure that's not the main factor for any of us but it definately holds some validity as far as I'm concerned.
But then again how many rings have our 'magic-type players' delivered?

I think it's safe to say my friend, you don't know much about Vince Carter. Cocky? Are you serious? VC is one of the most unselfish players in the NBA and is VERY humble.

Vince will be a better go to scorer but Turkoglu is a more natural playmaker for others, especially in the P&R.

You are in for a surprise. VC is a great playmaker. VC has Hedo beat in both categories. Better go-to scorer and a better playmaker. The size mismatch is the only thing Hedo provides, but VC is one of the best at creating his own shot or an easier shot for others. Not to mention VC draws at least a double-team throughout most of the game because of his ability.

[streetp0et]

It's also foolish and ignorant to assume that just because Hedo played well in this system, losing him will jeopardize the entire thing all together. It's not as if the Magic have lost their ability to win ballgames just because one player (albeit an integral part of the system) departed.

Vince Carter is NOT Hedo Turkoglu and thus he will NEVER fit into the system in the 'EXACT' same way that Hedo did. Still, it doesn't matter. Vince doesn't need to be Hedo and I don't know why you are all assuming that he does. I doubt that even our head coach is assuming such a thing. Vince Carter is a different player and thus he brings different things to the table. The system will change to accommodate these changes so what are you all fussing about? These compatibility issues are just things haters/doubters/bandwagon fans will bring up to put a negative spin on this trade. I'm getting sick of it.

The changes that will be made in order to accomodate Vince into the system can neither be assumed beneficial or detrimental to the teams success yet, which is exactly what most posters are doing. Assuming that he will come in and be a great fit is just as ignorant as assuming that he will hurt the team. Vince is a ball-dominant player. That's not to say that he is incapable of playing a team game but he is most effective with the ball in his hands. On the other hand, Hedo was not as ball-dominant, which is exactly why he was able to put himself into positions that maximized his strengths. I think that we will have to wait and see how things gel with a player like Vince on the Magic.

so basically, you're saying since vince has not played one game in a magic uniform, no one is allowed to form an opinion on how he'll fare in the magic's system compared to hedo. what are we left to discuss then, considering more than 50% of topics discussed on these forums are based on opinions and assumptions?

[craig01]

On the other hand, Hedo was not as ball-dominant, which is exactly why he was able to put himself into positions that maximized his strengths. I think that we will have to wait and see how things gel with a player like Vince on the Magic.

You and I weren't watching the same games then.

Hedo was VERY ball dominant.

[Hilltop]

It's also foolish and ignorant to assume that just because Hedo played well in this system, losing him will jeopardize the entire thing all together. It's not as if the Magic have lost their ability to win ballgames just because one player (albeit an integral part of the system) departed.

Vince Carter is NOT Hedo Turkoglu and thus he will NEVER fit into the system in the 'EXACT' same way that Hedo did. Still, it doesn't matter. Vince doesn't need to be Hedo and I don't know why you are all assuming that he does. I doubt that even our head coach is assuming such a thing. Vince Carter is a different player and thus he brings different things to the table. The system will change to accommodate these changes so what are you all fussing about? These compatibility issues are just things haters/doubters/bandwagon fans will bring up to put a negative spin on this trade. I'm getting sick of it.

The changes that will be made in order to accomodate Vince into the system can neither be assumed beneficial or detrimental to the teams success yet, which is exactly what most posters are doing. Assuming that he will come in and be a great fit is just as ignorant as assuming that he will hurt the team. Vince is a ball-dominant player. That's not to say that he is incapable of playing a team game but he is most effective with the ball in his hands. On the other hand, Hedo was not as ball-dominant, which is exactly why he was able to put himself into positions that maximized his strengths. I think that we will have to wait and see how things gel with a player like Vince on the Magic.

so basically, you're saying since vince has not played one game in a magic uniform, no one is allowed to form an opinion on how he'll fare in the magic's system compared to hedo. what are we left to discuss then, considering more than 50% of topics discussed on these forums are based on opinions and assumptions?

See that's the problem on RealGM. When it comes to Vince Carter playing for Orlando, it's always about how Vince will not fit into the offense, how he will ruin team chemistry, or how he will jeopardize some pre-existing 'equilibrium'. Sure The funny thing is, Vince is as unproven in this system as Rasheed is in Boston, Shaq is in Cleveland's, Artest is in LA's, and Jefferson is in San Antonio's. For some reason all these teams get the pass and are actually given praise for their 'upgrades' (even if they are upgrades on paper only). All of a sudden, after those trades/signings, these teams are the NBA's elite and are automatically assumed to be the 'teams to beat' next season. Magic fans on the other hand are left with the burden to still have to prove that their team is part of the mix (when on paper, it obviously is) Is the Magic the only team that needs to consider adjusting their style of plays because they acquired new players? Is the Magic the only team that has to worry about 'fits' and 'team chemistry' issues? Is the Magic the only team subject to these rules? Apparently, a lot of these tools think so. Yet, I can't think of any difference. The favoritism is ridiculous.

If you say that Magic fans have no right to believe/assume they are a better team on the sole basis that they have upgraded their talent 'on paper', then the same can be said for all these other teams in the NBA because everyone else, has upgraded 'on paper' as well.

[orlandomike]

You can throw numbers out the window. Different teams, different players, different positions, different roles on the team.

Hedo did well by driving to the basket it really forced teams to account for him in 2 different places but Hedo really is a slow sort fo player. He isnt that athletic. His gift was 6'10" shooting 3's and drawing the foul, doing some dirty work on driving layups.

Carter is much more athletic, can shoot 3's and do inside stuff all day and mre quickly and wont be a defensive trouble spot. What Carter gives us is a guy, who when the game is on the line, can create his own shot other than Howard who is a liability at the line.