Do you think Aaron Gordon will emerge as a breakout star this year?

[JF5]

Kudos for Aaron for the big game tonight. Unfortunately didn't see it but I'm happy to see him shine tonight.

[Skin]

Somewhere Evan is burning up mad inside.

[Instincts]

It really is amazing that people still want to downplay AG’s improvement. Without going back to the beginning of this thread, I’m sure very few would have predicted that AG would be averaging 19pt / 8rb on 56% 2pt / 44% 3pt through the first quarter of the season.

I guess it depends on what defines a breakout star, especially at 22. Averaging 19 / 8 on highly efficient percentages, showing drastic improvement in shooting form (which many have stated was statistically impossible), solidly out playing Wiggins (the top pick in 2014 draft) this season, having humility and articulation beyond his years, becoming a household name in the best dunk contest in 20 years. Not sure exactly what he has to do earn the label “breakout star”. Of course he is breakout star.

And all this is being done while Vogel rightly or wrongly has him playing “within the system”.

If we sneak into the playoffs, he is capable of dominanting on both ends. We haven’t seen lock down Gordon as he has been focusing his energy on offense. But it is still there and I am ready to see him step up to the challenge. A 20/20 playoff game is very possible and I do expect at least one or two during the regular season as well.

I love the highs and lows of this thread.

It’s wildly inconsistent. Much like his game.

Do you want a finished product at 22?

[PrimeThyme]

Watch on YouTube

;t=0s

[Rainwater]

It really is amazing that people still want to downplay AG’s improvement. Without going back to the beginning of this thread, I’m sure very few would have predicted that AG would be averaging 19pt / 8rb on 56% 2pt / 44% 3pt through the first quarter of the season.

I guess it depends on what defines a breakout star, especially at 22. Averaging 19 / 8 on highly efficient percentages, showing drastic improvement in shooting form (which many have stated was statistically impossible), solidly out playing Wiggins (the top pick in 2014 draft) this season, having humility and articulation beyond his years, becoming a household name in the best dunk contest in 20 years. Not sure exactly what he has to do earn the label “breakout star”. Of course he is breakout star.

And all this is being done while Vogel rightly or wrongly has him playing “within the system”.

If we sneak into the playoffs, he is capable of dominanting on both ends. We haven’t seen lock down Gordon as he has been focusing his energy on offense. But it is still there and I am ready to see him step up to the challenge. A 20/20 playoff game is very possible and I do expect at least one or two during the regular season as well.

It’s wildly inconsistent. Much like his game.

Do you want a finished product at 22?

I will agree that Gordon has improved greatly especially his shooting. But to say he is solidly out playing Wiggins is saying a lot. Wiggins is avg 19 with two other All-Stars on a good Minnesota team, AG is only avg 19 surrounded by nobodies on a bad Magic team. Wiggins was avg nearly 24 without Butler on the team last year. You put AG on that Minnesota team now not only would Minnesota not be as good but AG would struggle. Part of the reason AG is succeeding is because there is really nobody else on the team.

[SOUL]

Wiggins is also purely a scorer though. Doesn't really do much else out there.

I'd say also that while the talent obviously isn't the same as the Timberwolves, the usage rates of our players (Vucevic, Fournier, Simmons, etc) are probably the same if not more than what Wiggins gets in that offense.

[Mr Magic Fan]

It really is amazing that people still want to downplay AG’s improvement. Without going back to the beginning of this thread, I’m sure very few would have predicted that AG would be averaging 19pt / 8rb on 56% 2pt / 44% 3pt through the first quarter of the season.

I guess it depends on what defines a breakout star, especially at 22. Averaging 19 / 8 on highly efficient percentages, showing drastic improvement in shooting form (which many have stated was statistically impossible), solidly out playing Wiggins (the top pick in 2014 draft) this season, having humility and articulation beyond his years, becoming a household name in the best dunk contest in 20 years. Not sure exactly what he has to do earn the label “breakout star”. Of course he is breakout star.

And all this is being done while Vogel rightly or wrongly has him playing “within the system”.

If we sneak into the playoffs, he is capable of dominanting on both ends. We haven’t seen lock down Gordon as he has been focusing his energy on offense. But it is still there and I am ready to see him step up to the challenge. A 20/20 playoff game is very possible and I do expect at least one or two during the regular season as well.

Do you want a finished product at 22?

I will agree that Gordon has improved greatly especially his shooting. But to say he is solidly out playing Wiggins is saying a lot. Wiggins is avg 19 with two other All-Stars on a good Minnesota team, AG is only avg 19 surrounded by nobodies on a bad Magic team. Wiggins was avg nearly 24 without Butler on the team last year. You put AG on that Minnesota team now not only would Minnesota not be as good but AG would struggle. Part of the reason AG is succeeding is because there is really nobody else on the team.

Choose a player:

A: Per Game: Pts 19.0 Reb 8.3 Ast 2.1 BLK 1 STL 1 TOV 1.8 FG% 51.1 3PT% 44 FT% 75.6 eFG% 60.3 TS% 63.3 on 13.2 FGA/5.5 3PA/4.1 FTA on 21.7% USG

B: Per Game: Pts 19.2 Reb 4.1 Ast 2.0 BLK 0.7 STL 1.3 TOV 1.9 FG% 45.9 3PT% 33.7 FT% 63.5 eFG% 50.7 TS% 53.6 on 15.5 FGA/4.4 3PA/5.5 FTA on 23.5 % USG

[VFX]

It really is amazing that people still want to downplay AG’s improvement. Without going back to the beginning of this thread, I’m sure very few would have predicted that AG would be averaging 19pt / 8rb on 56% 2pt / 44% 3pt through the first quarter of the season.

I guess it depends on what defines a breakout star, especially at 22. Averaging 19 / 8 on highly efficient percentages, showing drastic improvement in shooting form (which many have stated was statistically impossible), solidly out playing Wiggins (the top pick in 2014 draft) this season, having humility and articulation beyond his years, becoming a household name in the best dunk contest in 20 years. Not sure exactly what he has to do earn the label “breakout star”. Of course he is breakout star.

And all this is being done while Vogel rightly or wrongly has him playing “within the system”.

If we sneak into the playoffs, he is capable of dominanting on both ends. We haven’t seen lock down Gordon as he has been focusing his energy on offense. But it is still there and I am ready to see him step up to the challenge. A 20/20 playoff game is very possible and I do expect at least one or two during the regular season as well.

I will agree that Gordon has improved greatly especially his shooting. But to say he is solidly out playing Wiggins is saying a lot. Wiggins is avg 19 with two other All-Stars on a good Minnesota team, AG is only avg 19 surrounded by nobodies on a bad Magic team. Wiggins was avg nearly 24 without Butler on the team last year. You put AG on that Minnesota team now not only would Minnesota not be as good but AG would struggle. Part of the reason AG is succeeding is because there is really nobody else on the team.

Choose a player:

A: Per Game: Pts 19.0 Reb 8.3 Ast 2.1 BLK 1 STL 1 TOV 1.8 FG% 51.1 3PT% 44 FT% 75.6 eFG% 60.3 TS% 63.3 on 13.2 FGA/5.5 3PA/4.1 FTA on 21.7% USG

B: Per Game: Pts 19.2 Reb 4.1 Ast 2.0 BLK 0.7 STL 1.3 TOV 1.9 FG% 45.9 3PT% 33.7 FT% 63.5 eFG% 50.7 TS% 53.6 on 15.5 FGA/4.4 3PA/5.5 FTA on 23.5 % USG

I think you missed the point of what he is saying in his previous post. Wiggins is doing it with 2 other stars and AG is doing it without. Albeit Vogel isn’t running everything through AG , which most of us would like to see, and still focusing on a more balanced offense.

[Mr Magic Fan]

I will agree that Gordon has improved greatly especially his shooting. But to say he is solidly out playing Wiggins is saying a lot. Wiggins is avg 19 with two other All-Stars on a good Minnesota team, AG is only avg 19 surrounded by nobodies on a bad Magic team. Wiggins was avg nearly 24 without Butler on the team last year. You put AG on that Minnesota team now not only would Minnesota not be as good but AG would struggle. Part of the reason AG is succeeding is because there is really nobody else on the team.

Choose a player:

A: Per Game: Pts 19.0 Reb 8.3 Ast 2.1 BLK 1 STL 1 TOV 1.8 FG% 51.1 3PT% 44 FT% 75.6 eFG% 60.3 TS% 63.3 on 13.2 FGA/5.5 3PA/4.1 FTA on 21.7% USG

B: Per Game: Pts 19.2 Reb 4.1 Ast 2.0 BLK 0.7 STL 1.3 TOV 1.9 FG% 45.9 3PT% 33.7 FT% 63.5 eFG% 50.7 TS% 53.6 on 15.5 FGA/4.4 3PA/5.5 FTA on 23.5 % USG

I think you missed the point of what he is saying in his previous post. Wiggins is doing it with 2 other stars and AG is doing it without. Albeit Vogel isn’t running everything through AG , which most of us would like to see, and still focusing on a more balanced offense.

I understand his point but it's a false narrative. AG's production is significantly better across the board except for FTR and steals. And on lower usage. So even though Wiggins plays with a better team, he still uses more possessions and produces less efficiently. Also, every advanced measure favors AG including PER, BPM, WS, VORP, OFF rating and DEF rating. Stats like BPM and OFF & DEF rating should be better for Wiggins as his teammates are better. Guess what? Those stats aren't.

I'm not trying to discount Wiggins, because I think he is very talented. However, AG is clearly playing better than him. There really is no argument unless you're basing it off media driven false narratives.

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[Rainwater]

Choose a player:

A: Per Game: Pts 19.0 Reb 8.3 Ast 2.1 BLK 1 STL 1 TOV 1.8 FG% 51.1 3PT% 44 FT% 75.6 eFG% 60.3 TS% 63.3 on 13.2 FGA/5.5 3PA/4.1 FTA on 21.7% USG

B: Per Game: Pts 19.2 Reb 4.1 Ast 2.0 BLK 0.7 STL 1.3 TOV 1.9 FG% 45.9 3PT% 33.7 FT% 63.5 eFG% 50.7 TS% 53.6 on 15.5 FGA/4.4 3PA/5.5 FTA on 23.5 % USG

I think you missed the point of what he is saying in his previous post. Wiggins is doing it with 2 other stars and AG is doing it without. Albeit Vogel isn’t running everything through AG , which most of us would like to see, and still focusing on a more balanced offense.

I understand his point but it's a false narrative. AG's production is significantly better across the board except for FTR and steals. And on lower usage. So even though Wiggins plays with a better team, he still uses more possessions and produces less efficiently. Also, every advanced measure favors AG including PER, BPM, WS, VORP, OFF rating and DEF rating. Stats like BPM and OFF & DEF rating should be better for Wiggins as his teammates are better. Guess what? Those stats aren't.

I'm not trying to discount Wiggins, because I think he is very talented. However, AG is clearly playing better than him. There really is no argument unless you're basing it off media driven false narratives.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

I think you are paying too much attention to advance numbers than watching the game, It's flawed. For example, AG has a lower usage but plays more efficiently than Paul George but does that mean he is better? Paul George and AG have similar VORP, BPM, WS, Per does that mean AG and Paul George are equal in talent? Of course not. The same concept holds true when comparing AG and Wiggins. You switch off Wiggins for AG that would be a loss for the Wolves.

And honsetly, I don't know what all these numbers mean, I am old school. But sometimes its better to watch the game.

[Mr Magic Fan]

I think you missed the point of what he is saying in his previous post. Wiggins is doing it with 2 other stars and AG is doing it without. Albeit Vogel isn’t running everything through AG , which most of us would like to see, and still focusing on a more balanced offense.

I understand his point but it's a false narrative. AG's production is significantly better across the board except for FTR and steals. And on lower usage. So even though Wiggins plays with a better team, he still uses more possessions and produces less efficiently. Also, every advanced measure favors AG including PER, BPM, WS, VORP, OFF rating and DEF rating. Stats like BPM and OFF & DEF rating should be better for Wiggins as his teammates are better. Guess what? Those stats aren't.

I'm not trying to discount Wiggins, because I think he is very talented. However, AG is clearly playing better than him. There really is no argument unless you're basing it off media driven false narratives.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

I think you are paying too much attention to advance numbers than watching the game, It's flawed. For example, AG has a lower usage but plays more efficiently than Paul George but does that mean he is better? Paul George and AG have similar VORP, BPM, WS, Per does that mean AG and Paul George are equal in talent? Of course not. The same concept holds true when comparing AG and Wiggins. You switch off Wiggins for AG that would be a loss for the Wolves.

Numbers are objective whereas the "eye test" is biased. I am biased in favor of AG, I'll admit that. But you're obviously biased in the other direction. However the numbers clearly support that AG is a bigger factor than Wiggins on the court. Wiggins numbers last year and this year are nearly identical. And Paul George, really? Of course PG is more talented right now vs 22 year old AG. PG is definitely affected by his situation, whereas Wiggins numbers have been the same for 3 years. But compare 22 year old PG to 22 year old AG.

Also, how exactly would AG get lost in Minnesota? He'd still be able to hit 3s off catches, rebound, attack in transition and closeouts, and play similar D. How does Wiggins playing in Minny make his FG% worse, 3 point shooting worse, defensive numbers worse, low assist rate than if he was on the Magic?

Your argument is purely narrative and biased for whatever reason.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

[VFX]

Choose a player:

A: Per Game: Pts 19.0 Reb 8.3 Ast 2.1 BLK 1 STL 1 TOV 1.8 FG% 51.1 3PT% 44 FT% 75.6 eFG% 60.3 TS% 63.3 on 13.2 FGA/5.5 3PA/4.1 FTA on 21.7% USG

B: Per Game: Pts 19.2 Reb 4.1 Ast 2.0 BLK 0.7 STL 1.3 TOV 1.9 FG% 45.9 3PT% 33.7 FT% 63.5 eFG% 50.7 TS% 53.6 on 15.5 FGA/4.4 3PA/5.5 FTA on 23.5 % USG

I think you missed the point of what he is saying in his previous post. Wiggins is doing it with 2 other stars and AG is doing it without. Albeit Vogel isn’t running everything through AG , which most of us would like to see, and still focusing on a more balanced offense.

I understand his point but it's a false narrative. AG's production is significantly better across the board except for FTR and steals. And on lower usage. So even though Wiggins plays with a better team, he still uses more possessions and produces less efficiently. Also, every advanced measure favors AG including PER, BPM, WS, VORP, OFF rating and DEF rating. Stats like BPM and OFF & DEF rating should be better for Wiggins as his teammates are better. Guess what? Those stats aren't.

I'm not trying to discount Wiggins, because I think he is very talented. However, AG is clearly playing better than him. There really is no argument unless you're basing it off media driven false narratives.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

The media doesn’t cover Orlando or Minnesota, so I don’t think you need to worry about the idea of fabricated narratives. It’s merely an observation on two players from the 2014 draft (a draft that produced a bunch of role players, Wiggins, AG, and Embiid).

Wiggins just signed a max contract with Minnesota. AG will likely do the same with Orlando. Both of them are good young players.

AG means more to the Magic than Wiggins means to the Wolves because we have no talent on the roster whereas Minnesota has 2 other stars to lean on.

[Rainwater]

I understand his point but it's a false narrative. AG's production is significantly better across the board except for FTR and steals. And on lower usage. So even though Wiggins plays with a better team, he still uses more possessions and produces less efficiently. Also, every advanced measure favors AG including PER, BPM, WS, VORP, OFF rating and DEF rating. Stats like BPM and OFF & DEF rating should be better for Wiggins as his teammates are better. Guess what? Those stats aren't.

I'm not trying to discount Wiggins, because I think he is very talented. However, AG is clearly playing better than him. There really is no argument unless you're basing it off media driven false narratives.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

I think you are paying too much attention to advance numbers than watching the game, It's flawed. For example, AG has a lower usage but plays more efficiently than Paul George but does that mean he is better? Paul George and AG have similar VORP, BPM, WS, Per does that mean AG and Paul George are equal in talent? Of course not. The same concept holds true when comparing AG and Wiggins. You switch off Wiggins for AG that would be a loss for the Wolves.

Numbers are objective whereas the "eye test" is biased. I am biased in favor of AG, I'll admit that. But you're obviously biased in the other direction. However the numbers clearly support that AG is a bigger factor than Wiggins on the court. Wiggins numbers last year and this year are nearly identical. And Paul George, really? Of course PG is more talented right now vs 22 year old AG. PG is definitely affected by his situation, whereas Wiggins numbers have been the same for 3 years. But compare 22 year old PG to 22 year old AG.

Also, how exactly would AG get lost in Minnesota? He'd still be able to hit 3s off catches, rebound, attack in transition and closeouts, and play similar D. How does Wiggins playing in Minny make his FG% worse, 3 point shooting worse, defensive numbers worse, low assist rate than if he was on the Magic?

Your argument is purely narrative and biased for whatever reason.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

No, it's not a Narrative, lol. Most people would chose Wiggins over AG (unless you are a magic fan). No offense but you are the bias one.

Using PG as an example shows how flawed stats can be if you are just looking at the numbers and nothing else. You tried doing same in your prior post.

In addition you don't think that AG stats are effected by his situation? Not playing with other key guys?

Andrew Wiggins is far better offensive player than AG, far better creator and dribbler. On the Magic would quickly become the number one option.

[Mr Magic Fan]

I think you missed the point of what he is saying in his previous post. Wiggins is doing it with 2 other stars and AG is doing it without. Albeit Vogel isn’t running everything through AG , which most of us would like to see, and still focusing on a more balanced offense.

I understand his point but it's a false narrative. AG's production is significantly better across the board except for FTR and steals. And on lower usage. So even though Wiggins plays with a better team, he still uses more possessions and produces less efficiently. Also, every advanced measure favors AG including PER, BPM, WS, VORP, OFF rating and DEF rating. Stats like BPM and OFF & DEF rating should be better for Wiggins as his teammates are better. Guess what? Those stats aren't.

I'm not trying to discount Wiggins, because I think he is very talented. However, AG is clearly playing better than him. There really is no argument unless you're basing it off media driven false narratives.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

The media doesn’t cover Orlando or Minnesota, so I don’t think you need to worry about the idea of fabricated narratives. It’s merely an observation on two players from the 2014 draft (a draft that produced a bunch of role players, Wiggins, AG, and Embiid).

Wiggins just signed a max contract with Minnesota. AG will likely do the same with Orlando. Both of them are good young players.

Wiggins has been hyped as a star since he was a sophomore or junior in high school. That perception clearly persists, even when the numbers say otherwise. I agree with in that both are good young players and both have amazing tools to build upon.

Sent from my SM-T520 using RealGM mobile app

[Mr Magic Fan]

I think you are paying too much attention to advance numbers than watching the game, It's flawed. For example, AG has a lower usage but plays more efficiently than Paul George but does that mean he is better? Paul George and AG have similar VORP, BPM, WS, Per does that mean AG and Paul George are equal in talent? Of course not. The same concept holds true when comparing AG and Wiggins. You switch off Wiggins for AG that would be a loss for the Wolves.

Numbers are objective whereas the "eye test" is biased. I am biased in favor of AG, I'll admit that. But you're obviously biased in the other direction. However the numbers clearly support that AG is a bigger factor than Wiggins on the court. Wiggins numbers last year and this year are nearly identical. And Paul George, really? Of course PG is more talented right now vs 22 year old AG. PG is definitely affected by his situation, whereas Wiggins numbers have been the same for 3 years. But compare 22 year old PG to 22 year old AG.

Also, how exactly would AG get lost in Minnesota? He'd still be able to hit 3s off catches, rebound, attack in transition and closeouts, and play similar D. How does Wiggins playing in Minny make his FG% worse, 3 point shooting worse, defensive numbers worse, low assist rate than if he was on the Magic?

Your argument is purely narrative and biased for whatever reason.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

No, it's not a Narrative, lol. Most people would chose Wiggins over AG (unless you are a magic fan). No offense but you are the bias one.

Using PG as an example shows how flawed stats can be you are just looking at the numbers and nothing else. You tried doing same in your prior post.

In addition you don't think that AG stats are effected by his situation? Not playing with other key guys?

Andrew Wiggins is far better offensive player than AG, far better creator and dribbler. On the Magic would quickly become the number one option.

Bandwagon fallacy. Just cause others believe it doesn't make it true.

PG has been great historically, the dip in his numbers can be attributed to a change in situation. You're just shifting the goal posts at this point.

Wiggins number are damn near the same before and after the roster changes.

If Wiggins is the better offensive player, why are his shooting percentages lower across the board? Even playing next to better teammates who are better offensive creators than Vuc and Evan. Why does Wiggins only average 2 assists (same as AG) and 2 turnovers (same as AG), on higher usage and with better teammates? Shouldn't he average more assists? Why are his defensive metrics worse? I'll give you he is a better ball handler and he draws fouls better. That's it.

Your argument is purely your opinion at this point and a misguided one at that.

Sent from my SM-T520 using RealGM mobile app

[Xatticus]

I think you missed the point of what he is saying in his previous post. Wiggins is doing it with 2 other stars and AG is doing it without. Albeit Vogel isn’t running everything through AG , which most of us would like to see, and still focusing on a more balanced offense.

I understand his point but it's a false narrative. AG's production is significantly better across the board except for FTR and steals. And on lower usage. So even though Wiggins plays with a better team, he still uses more possessions and produces less efficiently. Also, every advanced measure favors AG including PER, BPM, WS, VORP, OFF rating and DEF rating. Stats like BPM and OFF & DEF rating should be better for Wiggins as his teammates are better. Guess what? Those stats aren't.

I'm not trying to discount Wiggins, because I think he is very talented. However, AG is clearly playing better than him. There really is no argument unless you're basing it off media driven false narratives.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

I think you are paying too much attention to advance numbers than watching the game, It's flawed. For example, AG has a lower usage but plays more efficiently than Paul George but does that mean he is better? Paul George and AG have similar VORP, BPM, WS, Per does that mean AG and Paul George are equal in talent? Of course not. The same concept holds true when comparing AG and Wiggins. You switch off Wiggins for AG that would be a loss for the Wolves.

And honsetly, I don't know what all these numbers mean, I am old school. But sometimes its better to watch the game.

Wiggins scores a bunch of points. That's all. He doesn't even do that efficiently. He's glorified because he was anointed as a star long before he had demonstrated as much (he still hasn't).

His one season at Kansas was disappointing. Still, he was the first player taken in the draft because of his incredible length and athleticism. He was supposed to be a great defender. He is a poor one instead. He was supposed to become a facilitator. His assist rate has been consistently low.

Paul George wasn't always Paul George. He was the 10th pick in the draft. At what point did he become a great player? At what point did he become better than Dirk Nowitzki or Carmelo Anthony? Gordon is better than Wiggins. You are going to be the last person to figure this out.

[Rainwater]

Numbers are objective whereas the "eye test" is biased. I am biased in favor of AG, I'll admit that. But you're obviously biased in the other direction. However the numbers clearly support that AG is a bigger factor than Wiggins on the court. Wiggins numbers last year and this year are nearly identical. And Paul George, really? Of course PG is more talented right now vs 22 year old AG. PG is definitely affected by his situation, whereas Wiggins numbers have been the same for 3 years. But compare 22 year old PG to 22 year old AG.

Also, how exactly would AG get lost in Minnesota? He'd still be able to hit 3s off catches, rebound, attack in transition and closeouts, and play similar D. How does Wiggins playing in Minny make his FG% worse, 3 point shooting worse, defensive numbers worse, low assist rate than if he was on the Magic?

Your argument is purely narrative and biased for whatever reason.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

No, it's not a Narrative, lol. Most people would chose Wiggins over AG (unless you are a magic fan). No offense but you are the bias one.

Using PG as an example shows how flawed stats can be you are just looking at the numbers and nothing else. You tried doing same in your prior post.

In addition you don't think that AG stats are effected by his situation? Not playing with other key guys?

Andrew Wiggins is far better offensive player than AG, far better creator and dribbler. On the Magic would quickly become the number one option.

Bandwagon fallacy. Just cause others believe it doesn't make it true.

PG has been great historically, the dip in his numbers can be attributed to a change in situation. You're just shifting the goal posts at this point.

Wiggins number are damn near the same before and after the roster changes.

If Wiggins is the better offensive player, why are his shooting percentages lower across the board? Even playing next to better teammates who are better offensive creators than Vuc and Evan. Why does Wiggins only average 2 assists (same as AG) and 2 turnovers (same as AG), on higher usage and with better teammates? Shouldn't he average more assists? Why are his defensive metrics worse? I'll give you he is a better ball handler and he draws fouls better. That's it.

Your argument is purely your opinion at this point and a misguided one at that.

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I get it you are an advance metrics/stat guy, Your whole argument is based on stats=talent and not looking at anything else. But that is flawed. If you look at a lot of guys in the league I am certain their advance stats does not match their actual value on the court. I randomly looked at Bradley Beal and he has the same issue. Advance stats would indicate that Gordon is as good as Beal. Again, that is not true. And at a glance, histoically, his advance stats have been consistent. And I can probably keep pulling up guys and we would see the same issue over and over again. But I don't have that type of time, lol.

We can agree to disagree but I think there would be a significant dip in AG's numbers if he played with actual all-stars although it might depend on the situation.

[Rainwater]

I understand his point but it's a false narrative. AG's production is significantly better across the board except for FTR and steals. And on lower usage. So even though Wiggins plays with a better team, he still uses more possessions and produces less efficiently. Also, every advanced measure favors AG including PER, BPM, WS, VORP, OFF rating and DEF rating. Stats like BPM and OFF & DEF rating should be better for Wiggins as his teammates are better. Guess what? Those stats aren't.

I'm not trying to discount Wiggins, because I think he is very talented. However, AG is clearly playing better than him. There really is no argument unless you're basing it off media driven false narratives.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

I think you are paying too much attention to advance numbers than watching the game, It's flawed. For example, AG has a lower usage but plays more efficiently than Paul George but does that mean he is better? Paul George and AG have similar VORP, BPM, WS, Per does that mean AG and Paul George are equal in talent? Of course not. The same concept holds true when comparing AG and Wiggins. You switch off Wiggins for AG that would be a loss for the Wolves.

And honsetly, I don't know what all these numbers mean, I am old school. But sometimes its better to watch the game.

Wiggins scores a bunch of points. That's all. He doesn't even do that efficiently. He's glorified because he was anointed as a star long before he had demonstrated as much (he still hasn't).

His one season at Kansas was disappointing. Still, he was the first player taken in the draft because of his incredible length and athleticism. He was supposed to be a great defender. He is a poor one instead. He was supposed to become a facilitator. His assist rate has been consistently low.

Paul George wasn't always Paul George. He was the 10th pick in the draft. At what point did he become a great player? At what point did he become better than Dirk Nowitzki or Carmelo Anthony? Gordon is better than Wiggins. You are going to be the last person to figure this out.

You missed the whole point in regards to the comparison to PG.

Seriously, that just wouldn't be me but most people who watch the NBA.

[Mr Magic Fan]

No, it's not a Narrative, lol. Most people would chose Wiggins over AG (unless you are a magic fan). No offense but you are the bias one.

Using PG as an example shows how flawed stats can be you are just looking at the numbers and nothing else. You tried doing same in your prior post.

In addition you don't think that AG stats are effected by his situation? Not playing with other key guys?

Andrew Wiggins is far better offensive player than AG, far better creator and dribbler. On the Magic would quickly become the number one option.

Bandwagon fallacy. Just cause others believe it doesn't make it true.

PG has been great historically, the dip in his numbers can be attributed to a change in situation. You're just shifting the goal posts at this point.

Wiggins number are damn near the same before and after the roster changes.

If Wiggins is the better offensive player, why are his shooting percentages lower across the board? Even playing next to better teammates who are better offensive creators than Vuc and Evan. Why does Wiggins only average 2 assists (same as AG) and 2 turnovers (same as AG), on higher usage and with better teammates? Shouldn't he average more assists? Why are his defensive metrics worse? I'll give you he is a better ball handler and he draws fouls better. That's it.

Your argument is purely your opinion at this point and a misguided one at that.

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I get it you are an advance metrics/stat guy, Your whole argument is based on stats=talent and not looking at anything else. But that is flawed. If you look at a lot of guys in the league I am certain their advance stats does not match their actual value on the court. I randomly looked at Bradley Beal and he has the same issue. Advance stats would indicate that Gordon is as good as Beal. Again, that is not true. And at a glance, histoically, his advance stats have been consistent. And I can probably keep pulling up guys and we would see the same issue over and over again. But I don't have that type of time, lol.

We can agree to disagree but I think there would be a significant dip in AG's numbers if he played with actual all-stars although it might depend on the situation.

I don't think any stats should be the end all, be all. However, the numbers can help confirm what you see on the court or even dispel what you think you see on the court. If you put AG on the wolves, sure his counting stats decrease but I'd anticipate his efficiency and advanced numbers to increase because of better opportunities with better teammates.

While Wiggins looks like a good player, he just doesn't put up good numbers yet. It's kind if like style over substance. I think he's very similar to Rudy Gay. Yeah he has basketball skills, athleticism, etc. Yet, it doesn't translate efficiently to the court or really impact games in a positive way. I think Wiggins career will be more Demar than Rudy though.

This season, AG is putting up really good numbers on a decent sample. There are many things he needs to improve at, like off ball defense, handles, and decision making. But I'm optimistic as he has already shown considerable growth in his game.

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[ivDT]

did that guy just hand wave away stat-based analysis based on real stats only to close his post with his unfounded gut feeling of what aaron would do in a hypothetical situation that likely wouldn't play out the way he expects, anyway?

i think i just had a t-dot keezy flashback.