Game #64: Orlando Magic(36-27) @ Denver Nuggets (35-28)

[MagicStarwipe]

That may have been true in the past, but doesn't seem the case this season. Jameer has been much better in the pick 'n roll with Dwight this season. Hedo can't even throw lobs to Dwight anymore.

85% of the time meer probably doesn't pass to dwight off the pnr

This season he seems to set Dwight up much more than Hedo. I'd like to see stats on it.

[Prolific Scorer]

Ryan anderson tweeted

"m sitting right behind you on the bus to the airport right now and i think ur a beast bro... Especially being put into a situation like this and going from not playing to big minutes. Gotta give my guy some love! I guess i probably could have just told you this in person... Your literally a foot away right now RT (@danielorton21: Gotta apologize to the fans and my teammates. Ive failed in everything that was asked of me the past two games Im extremely sorry. Love yall) "

Good teammate and a good guy.

[Hilltop]

Amare used to set a lot of weak picks and get on the move almost instantly and yet Nash would still feed him. Jameer just isn't a good PnR player. It's a combination of a scorer's mentality and the misfortune of being short.

He cant capitalize even when teams cheat. Lots of times you see Dwight wide open or being covered by the opposing 1/2. All he has to do is make the entry pass or throw a lob but he can't. You can trap Jameer because you know he is trying to score on that play. Once you deny him, it's game over. Try to trap Nash and Dwight is getting an easy two points or someone is getting a wide open three.

[Bensational]

Ryan anderson tweeted

"m sitting right behind you on the bus to the airport right now and i think ur a beast bro... Especially being put into a situation like this and going from not playing to big minutes. Gotta give my guy some love! I guess i probably could have just told you this in person... Your literally a foot away right now RT (@danielorton21: Gotta apologize to the fans and my teammates. Ive failed in everything that was asked of me the past two games Im extremely sorry. Love yall) "

Good teammate and a good guy.

what a champ!

that's the kind of leadership i wish Dwight would show more of.

[magicman123]

Amare used to set a lot of weak picks and get on the move almost instantly and yet Nash would still feed him. Jameer just isn't a good PnR player. It's a combination of a scorer's mentality and the misfortune of being short.

He cant capitalize even when teams cheat. Lots of times you see Dwight wide open or being covered by the opposing 1/2. All he has to do is make the entry pass or throw a lob but he can't. You can trap Jameer because you know he is trying to score on that play. Once you deny him, it's game over. Try to trap Nash and Dwight is getting an easy two points or someone is getting a wide open three.

yep, meer hardly gets anything to dwight on the pnr, he cant do it, he cant make the entry pass or the lob

[Bensational]

Amare used to set a lot of weak picks and get on the move almost instantly and yet Nash would still feed him. Jameer just isn't a good PnR player. It's a combination of a scorer's mentality and the misfortune of being short.

He cant capitalize even when teams cheat. Lots of times you see Dwight wide open or being covered by the opposing 1/2. All he has to do is make the entry pass or throw a lob but he can't. You can trap Jameer because you know he is trying to score on that play. Once you deny him, it's game over. Try to trap Nash and Dwight is getting an easy two points or someone is getting a wide open three.

yep, meer hardly gets anything to dwight on the pnr, he cant do it, he cant make the entry pass or the lob

Jameer looks at 3 things when he's driving off the p&r - the floor, the hoop, the perimeter.

[rcklsscognition]

yet they fail to make simple lob passes/short dishes to him on the majority of p&r's we run...

you know who has actually been the most consistent at either popping a lob over to Dwight, or offloading the ball to Dwight in the lane off a drive? JJ and Von. they make the basic passes that Jameer never does. Duhon doesn't even get a mention. Ish doesn't get the chance (but I've seen him do it several times).

I know we talked about this in the other thread and you (i think) had some stats saying Dwight was very good on t he p&r but I am sticking to my guns and saying he is not doing it well enough. He doesn't set the pick hard enough because he's afraid of picking up a foul, and he doesn't allow the pick to develop and set before he moves. I'm not saying he never does, but a lot of times he doesn't.

Watch how much separation Jordan gets here:

Patience:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjVD_A6gUu8[/youtube]

Dwight doing the same but never touches the ball handler's man, doesn't even set a pick with Redick vs. Roy Hibbert in March:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hw3MveU4jE[/youtube]

You say, that's great, he doesn't even have to set picks, but the problem is you do have to set picks to make the pick and roll work on almost all other plays. Dwight has a tendency to shy away from a pick because of foul trouble. That's why if Dwight set picks like BBD, he'd have a much better pick and roll game.

In this vid, at 57 seconds, Dwight actually sets a pick and pushes the defender away and gets an open dunk. The beginning of the vid is all terrible picks set by Howard and Gortat. No separation created. No disruption and no switch. In the plays where the bigs are camped in the lane zone, Jameer is doing the correct thing and shooting after the pick.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzmEntcAxrE&feature=related[/youtube]

When there is no big man zone being played and Howard sets a good pick, they get lobs and dunks. Problem is, against us, that's the defense we see a lot because that's how you shut down the 1-5 pick and roll. Don't hate on Jameer for not being able to throw a lob to a Dwight who is getting covered in the paint by 1 or 2 bigs in the zone.

go back and watch those videos and watch the difference in the ball handlers. Chris Paul virtually creates separation before the pick is even set, and then Budinger is off balance as Jordan sets the pick.

JJ is on the move and doesn't make a cut anywhere near Howard, so for Howard to step out and create a pick on that, it's a near gaurantee he'd get called for the foul.

and watch Jameer. he does nothing to actually create separation, or disorient his defender. whatever side he protects the ball on, he drives to that side, and he doesn't take the ball near the pick - he steps around it with a good foot or two clearance, and that just makes it riskier for a big man.

i won't lie, Dwight could definitely do with setting some more solid picks, but if he had a legitimately capable PG, it would make more of a difference than that quality of Dwight's picks.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPSpvdpnxUw[/youtube]

watch Nash, he always starts the p&r on the move, with a defender uncertain which way he's going to go. he cuts close to the pick. and most of all - the dude has vision.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa3nu-hO7R4[/youtube]

again, Paul is always on the move, always has the defender uncertain about where the play is going.

Yes, I agree, Nash and Paul get in closer to the pick, and in fact, I have made numerous posts calling Jameer out for moving too soon. Now that said, I have watched his p&r with BBD and he does it correctly with Davis. That's why I'm calling Howard out on this one. Now, it may have been a fluke with BBD that he runs the pick and roll correctly, but when he does it with Glen, he waits long enough to make his move and brings the action in real tight and compacts the 4 players, like you're supposed to, like Nash does. When Nelson runs the play with Dwight, he often starts to move too early, I don't know why he does it with Howard like that, but I'd like to see more evidence of the Nelson BBD p&r to see the differences.

[rcklsscognition]

Amare used to set a lot of weak picks and get on the move almost instantly and yet Nash would still feed him. Jameer just isn't a good PnR player. It's a combination of a scorer's mentality and the misfortune of being short.

He cant capitalize even when teams cheat. Lots of times you see Dwight wide open or being covered by the opposing 1/2. All he has to do is make the entry pass or throw a lob but he can't. You can trap Jameer because you know he is trying to score on that play. Once you deny him, it's game over. Try to trap Nash and Dwight is getting an easy two points or someone is getting a wide open three.

yep, meer hardly gets anything to dwight on the pnr, he cant do it, he cant make the entry pass or the lob

Jameer looks at 3 things when he's driving off the p&r - the floor, the hoop, the perimeter.

And that is fundamentally what he's supposed to do, actually. On a pick and roll with a 2 big man zone in the paint, the pick and roll ball handlers a) shoots the open mid-range shot or b) passes to the wing for a 3 pointer after attempting to draw the wing defender in with penetration. We wonder why does Jameer always do this, because that's how defenses usually play us. When they don't and they make a mistake and have only 1 guy on Dwight, Nelson usually finds D12 for the hoop or dunk. Our whole system is designed around having a 3 point shooter available for the kick out on a pick and roll situation just like this. If you're Stan and you know the opposing team is going to have 2 bigs waiting in the paint for Dwight on his roll, then you set up a lethal 4 3 point shooter to receive the kick out from Jameer.

[mhectorgato]

yet they fail to make simple lob passes/short dishes to him on the majority of p&r's we run...

you know who has actually been the most consistent at either popping a lob over to Dwight, or offloading the ball to Dwight in the lane off a drive? JJ and Von. they make the basic passes that Jameer never does. Duhon doesn't even get a mention. Ish doesn't get the chance (but I've seen him do it several times).

I know we talked about this in the other thread and you (i think) had some stats saying Dwight was very good on t he p&r but I am sticking to my guns and saying he is not doing it well enough. He doesn't set the pick hard enough because he's afraid of picking up a foul, and he doesn't allow the pick to develop and set before he moves. I'm not saying he never does, but a lot of times he doesn't.

Watch how much separation Jordan gets here:

Patience:

Dwight doing the same but never touches the ball handler's man, doesn't even set a pick with Redick vs. Roy Hibbert in March:

You say, that's great, he doesn't even have to set picks, but the problem is you do have to set picks to make the pick and roll work on almost all other plays. Dwight has a tendency to shy away from a pick because of foul trouble. That's why if Dwight set picks like BBD, he'd have a much better pick and roll game.

In this vid, at 57 seconds, Dwight actually sets a pick and pushes the defender away and gets an open dunk. The beginning of the vid is all terrible picks set by Howard and Gortat. No separation created. No disruption and no switch. In the plays where the bigs are camped in the lane zone, Jameer is doing the correct thing and shooting after the pick.


When there is no big man zone being played and Howard sets a good pick, they get lobs and dunks. Problem is, against us, that's the defense we see a lot because that's how you shut down the 1-5 pick and roll. Don't hate on Jameer for not being able to throw a lob to a Dwight who is getting covered in the paint by 1 or 2 bigs in the zone.

go back and watch those videos and watch the difference in the ball handlers. Chris Paul virtually creates separation before the pick is even set, and then Budinger is off balance as Jordan sets the pick.

JJ is on the move and doesn't make a cut anywhere near Howard, so for Howard to step out and create a pick on that, it's a near gaurantee he'd get called for the foul.

and watch Jameer. he does nothing to actually create separation, or disorient his defender. whatever side he protects the ball on, he drives to that side, and he doesn't take the ball near the pick - he steps around it with a good foot or two clearance, and that just makes it riskier for a big man.

i won't lie, Dwight could definitely do with setting some more solid picks, but if he had a legitimately capable PG, it would make more of a difference than that quality of Dwight's picks.

watch Nash, he always starts the p&r on the move, with a defender uncertain which way he's going to go. he cuts close to the pick. and most of all - the dude has vision.

again, Paul is always on the move, always has the defender uncertain about where the play is going.

No doubt there are improvements that can be made.

However, showing how CP & Nash do it is like another team saying: "Our center should block shots like Dwight Howard does".

While CP & Nash set the gold standard, there's a reason why they are the best in the league at what they do, and all the other PGs are good to average to Dohun.

The only way to get the they bring is to get those players. Sure another PG would be able run the PnR better, but they would be deficient in other areas, likely areas in which Jameer does good on.

[BadMofoPimp]

The point is to keep the defense on its toes and trying to be unpredictable. I played the Point for years and I never stopped moving with and without the ball. This offense has Meer and Duhon at the top of the key holding the ball too much giving defenses time to get set.