Let's Talk About Mario

[Lazy10]

Mario Hezonja has disappointed me. Thought he be top 5 discussion for ROY but he looked most of the time. Terrible defender. Not as good athletically as the scouts said he was. His 3 point shooting was average to below average. Hopefully he turns it around in year 2 because if he doesnt he's a huge bust and Hennigan is gone.

[SOUL]

Mario Hezonja has disappointed me. Thought he be top 5 discussion for ROY but he looked most of the time. Terrible defender. Not as good athletically as the scouts said he was. His 3 point shooting was average to below average. Hopefully he turns it around in year 2 because if he doesnt he's a huge bust and Hennigan is gone.

What did you expect from a European learning a new league basically, in limited minutes, with a known deficiency in defense?

So much wrong with this, especially because he wasn't a "bust" this year. He still put up 42/35/90 which is decent numbers, and looked better at the end of the season on defense as well.

[Xatticus]

Seems pretty clear that the evidence posted by Ezzp and Saber indicates that Fournier is a pretty average passer. I'm open to an argument for why I'm misinterpreting the data, but I haven't seen such an argument posted yet.

Just for clarification, I was catching up on the thread and had not yet reached SaberT's post, which does provide insight.

Posting raw figures for passes and assists is absolutely useless. These are both functions of playing time and touches. There are only so many conceivable outcomes from any possession over the course of a game. If you aren't shooting or turning the ball over, you must be passing it. One would expect that the team leader in minutes played would rank highly among the members of that team in each of those categories. Nothing posted thus far refutes the notion that Fournier is preferential in his passing.

[ezzzp]

One of them will get max, other is on 7 mill

Same production, same TS% (worst jumper for louwill which he compensates with FT), all other stats almost equal, evan plays better D than lou(not that hard really) and D is crucial when considering evan-he needs to be great 2 way player because this kind of production he have on offense can be replaced for cheaper than max.

Only Qmark for him is if he can guard SF or not(Mario can if and when he pulls his S together in nba), because if both evan and dipo stay, evan will play sf annnd he will start cause I dont think magic will pay him all that money otherwise. I have feeling they will pay him and start next season and if team go south they pull tobias on him, and insert mario in his spot

Why would the Magic go after Lou Williams?

The only position he can feasibly play is back up PG, except he isn't a PG. Teams have hidden him at backup PG because its the only position he can barely defend but he's just a very undersized SG. If the Magic wanted to do that they would just slide Oladipo over.

Plus, Williams is a notoriously lazy defender with no physical capacity at all on that end. The only thing that has kept him in the NBA is that he can put up points vs 2nd units.

Lou Williams is the kind of player a GM signs to tank a season. Definitely not a Rob Hennigan type of player.

There is a reason why there is potential that someone might offer Fournier a Max contract and why Lou Williams never has or ever will get valued at that level.

[ezzzp]

I'm not talking about a 1 on 1 situation here. No way is Evan shooting better than 25% on 1 on 3's, albeit a small and specific sample size.

There is no stat for that specificity, but Fournier is one of the best in the NBA at finishing in transition...

Let me put it this way, Fournier in Transition Plays generates a Points Per Possession of (1.34) ... Lebron James (1.32) and Kevin Durant (1.32) in that type of play.

...Evan Fournier is very very good at converting in the open court.

Is there any stat on passing while in transition (assisting on a fastbreak? Although Evan is really good at passing out of a long rebound or a steal)? This is where someone like Lebron excels.

I just checked but I couldn't find anything that gave insight on that; but its pretty obvious that he doesn't have that type of a Point Forward ability in the open court. I guess if he did, we wouldn't be having this discussion as Denver would have recognized that and never traded him.

That of course doesn't discount that he is a very good finisher in transition.

[ezzzp]

Seems pretty clear that the evidence posted by Ezzp and Saber indicates that Fournier is a pretty average passer. I'm open to an argument for why I'm misinterpreting the data, but I haven't seen such an argument posted yet.

Just for clarification, I was catching up on the thread and had not yet reached SaberT's post, which does provide insight.

Posting raw figures for passes and assists is absolutely useless. These are both functions of playing time and touches. There are only so many conceivable outcomes from any possession over the course of a game. If you aren't shooting or turning the ball over, you must be passing it. One would expect that the team leader in minutes played would rank highly among the members of that team in each of those categories. Nothing posted thus far refutes the notion that Fournier is preferential in his passing.

Assist Ratio and Assist per100 normalize possessions; Assist per36 normalize minutes (all on page 19).

Every single basketball player is preferential in their passing. Most of that is guided by how the team offense is designed but it is also layered with who they play well with...they call that chemistry.

[Xatticus]

Assist Ratio and Assist per100 normalize possessions; Assist per36 normalize minutes (all on page 19).

Every single basketball player is preferential in their passing. Most of that is guided by how the team offense is designed but it is also layered with who they play well with...they call that chemistry.

Those were field goal figures on page 19?

I have defended Fournier's decision-making, as I believe field goal percentage is largely a function of this decision-making. If a player is indeed a black hole, their field goal percentage should suffer as they force up shots. But let's not pretend that the things that we all see on a consistent basis don't actually happen.

Chemistry is a rose-colored interpretation of his passing predilections. I'd love to hear the positive spin on his rebounding and defensive qualities.

[ezzzp]

Those were field goal figures on page 19?

I have defended Fournier's decision-making, as I believe field goal percentage is largely a function of this decision-making. If a player is indeed a black hole, their field goal percentage should suffer as they force up shots. But let's not pretend that the things that we all see on a consistent basis don't actually happen.

Chemistry is a rose-colored interpretation of his passing predilections. I'd love to hear the positive spin on his rebounding and defensive qualities.

I have never defended his defense or rebounding, and in fact have stated numerous times that because he is playing out of position at SF he will always be at a physical disadvantage on the defensive end - and why he isn't the longterm solution at SF.

What I have opposed are the tin foil hat conspiracy theories about him being a black hole and never passing; and after that was disproved about how he is supposedly bad in transition...

...and now about him being a preferential passer (to Vuc). How dare he pass more to the team's no.1 option. Look at the starters passing break down in the previous post, I guess Oladipo and EP are also "preferential passers." Yea, rose colored glasses....

[Xatticus]

I have never defended his defense or rebounding, and in fact have stated numerous times that because he is playing out of position at SF he will always be at a physical disadvantage on the defensive end - and why he isn't the longterm solution at SF.

What I have opposed are the tin foil hat conspiracy theories about him being a black hole and never passing; and after that was disproved about how he is supposedly bad in transition...

...and now about him being a preferential passer (to Vuc). How dare he pass more to the team's no.1 option. Look at the starters passing break down in the previous post, I guess Oladipo and EP are also "preferential passers." Yea, rose colored glasses....

I think we can all agree that Fournier is not a collapsed star whose gravitational pull is so strong that not even light can escape. Given that there is no actual definition for what a black hole is in basketball terms, you can't actually disprove this. I think it's safe to state that "black hole" and "never passing" were rhetorical absolutes that weren't meant to be taken literally.

Positions in basketball are archaic and largely meaningless. A player is defined by what he can defend. If Fournier can't keep a three in front of him, what makes you think he can keep a two in front of him? His physical disadvantage is a lack of athleticism.

Preferential was a very polite way of saying that he freezes out other players. The obvious difference in the statistics presented is that other players on the team are capable facilitators for other members of the team aside from Vucevic, at least relative to Fournier.

You can try to rationalize this any way that you wish, but to anyone that has ever played competitive basketball, it is really obvious when he forgoes the correct basketball play. You can argue that these are mistakes, or that his court vision is suspect. What you can't argue, however, is that this is evidence of some sublime tactical understanding.

[ezzzp]

I have never defended his defense or rebounding, and in fact have stated numerous times that because he is playing out of position at SF he will always be at a physical disadvantage on the defensive end - and why he isn't the longterm solution at SF.

What I have opposed are the tin foil hat conspiracy theories about him being a black hole and never passing; and after that was disproved about how he is supposedly bad in transition...

...and now about him being a preferential passer (to Vuc). How dare he pass more to the team's no.1 option. Look at the starters passing break down in the previous post, I guess Oladipo and EP are also "preferential passers." Yea, rose colored glasses....

I think we can all agree that Fournier is not a collapsed star whose gravitational pull is so strong that not even light can escape. Given that there is no actual definition for what a black hole is in basketball terms, you can't actually disprove this. I think it's safe to state that "black hole" and "never passing" were rhetorical absolutes that weren't meant to be taken literally.

Positions in basketball are archaic and largely meaningless. A player is defined by what he can defend. If Fournier can't keep a three in front of him, what makes you think he can keep a two in front of him? His physical disadvantage is a lack of athleticism.

Preferential was a very polite way of saying that he freezes out other players. The obvious difference in the statistics presented is that other players on the team are capable facilitators for other members of the team aside from Vucevic, at least relative to Fournier.

You can try to rationalize this any way that you wish, but to anyone that has ever played competitive basketball, it is really obvious when he forgoes the correct basketball play. You can argue that these are mistakes, or that his court vision is suspect. What you can't argue, however, is that this is evidence of some sublime tactical understanding.

I agree that you are consistent in your use of pointless jargon and mind numbingly obvious pontifications to misdirect attention away from the fact that you continue to be proved totally wrong over and over. That is the only thing that is obvious.

[j-ragg]

I have never defended his defense or rebounding, and in fact have stated numerous times that because he is playing out of position at SF he will always be at a physical disadvantage on the defensive end - and why he isn't the longterm solution at SF.

What I have opposed are the tin foil hat conspiracy theories about him being a black hole and never passing; and after that was disproved about how he is supposedly bad in transition...

...and now about him being a preferential passer (to Vuc). How dare he pass more to the team's no.1 option. Look at the starters passing break down in the previous post, I guess Oladipo and EP are also "preferential passers." Yea, rose colored glasses....

You can try to rationalize this any way that you wish, but to anyone that has ever played competitive basketball, it is really obvious when he forgoes the correct basketball play. You can argue that these are mistakes, or that his court vision is suspect. What you can't argue, however, is that this is evidence of some sublime tactical understanding.

This. So much this.

[ezzzp]

This. So much this.

Blue_and_White was so right.

[Bensational]

This. So much this.

Blue_and_White was so right.

Let's keep the discussion on track and not resort to name calling (or elude to it).

[basketballRob]

Mario Hezonja has disappointed me. Thought he be top 5 discussion for ROY but he looked most of the time. Terrible defender. Not as good athletically as the scouts said he was. His 3 point shooting was average to below average. Hopefully he turns it around in year 2 because if he doesnt he's a huge bust and Hennigan is gone.

You think the Magic should trade him?

Off the top of my head I know Nowitzki and Hedo had even worse first years then Mario had.

I saw some things athletically from him this year that not many players his size could do. Plus he's a better passer/playmaker then I thought. I think his low ceiling is a Hedo type player.

[basketballRob]

Even after a year were Mario seemed like a fish out of water, probably partially due to getting acclimated to the American lifestyle, you can see were he can potentially be better than Turkoglu at the very least.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=turkohe01&p2=hezonma01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

[j-ragg]

This. So much this.

Blue_and_White was so right.

Totally bro. Because I share the same opinion that many do, that makes me a troll.

[ezzzp]

This. So much this.

Blue_and_White was so right.

Totally bro. Because I share the same opinion that many do, that makes me a troll.

Look at most of those who you are in agreement with and their reasons for agreeing and contextualize it.

[PennytoShaq]

Mario Hezonja has disappointed me. Thought he be top 5 discussion for ROY but he looked most of the time. Terrible defender. Not as good athletically as the scouts said he was. His 3 point shooting was average to below average. Hopefully he turns it around in year 2 because if he doesnt he's a huge bust and Hennigan is gone.

This is pretty in line with your screen name because it is clear you spent very little time actually watching Mario play basketball.

[eyriq]

I think he is a pretty safe bet to land somewhere between a Wesley Person or a Ray Allen.

[Xatticus]

Totally bro. Because I share the same opinion that many do, that makes me a troll.

Look at most of those who you are in agreement with and their reasons for agreeing and contextualize it.

Precisely the same can be said about you or those you agree with. What makes you an exception to your own innuendo?