Game Thread 23: Orlando Magic (10-12) vs Boston Celtics (12-9) 12/7 7PM ET

[rcklsscognition]

As for Mario, you got to approach the game as a professional no matter the situation. If he would just commit himself to being a 3&D guy and actually take pride on the defensive end, Frank would be playing him in the rotation. Mario had the chance to cement himself in the rotation earlier this season and did not take advantage. I still have hope for him but man he has taken a nose dive from last year to this year.

I honestly don't think there are minutes available for him. Even before the season started, Meeks had Mario's number, Mario had one opportunity to come out of the gates well and he stumbled, hard, and probably lost the job for the rest of the year unless something crazy happens. There's just no reason to play Mario at all except for "development". None. It sucks, but it's the truth.

[boomershadow]

So in game where opponents best player doesn't play, where our top salary guys :
Evan gets abused on both ends by Bradley. Dude made first 3 shots and missed 10 of next 11. Was biggest pile of garbage out there, not only that he missed 10 of 14 shots, he also didn't move ball at all ,he also killed 3 possessions by having no clue what's shot clock situation.
Biyombo, one of biggest no factors outthere. That $17M per year over next 4 years looks laughably bad.
Green 1-5 from the floor in 22 min.

Team lost by 30 and all fans talk about are 4 and half min of Mario Hezonja where he didn't run on defense with 30 seconds left in a 30 points blow out after bad no-call on other end. How can we ever forgive him that?
He "gave up" because team gave up on him. They DNPed him for unofficial 14 time in a row, he didn't play "normal" basketball for month and half now. And he is 21, so what he should do? Run happy and hug contract warriors like Ibaka, Meeks and Green who only play for next years FA or what? I mean what team ever did for him ? Drafted him just because they didn't want prospect, had unrealistic expetations from somebody who was 20 years old, gave him coach that kepth im on short leash and gave him no proper playing time to develop or learn through mistake, despite being lottery team, when he turned 21 ,after bad preseason and start of season where everybody sucked they decided they his window of improvment is closed. It's copy past same situation like it was with Harkless . And Harkless is now 13 ppg player on playoff team TRADED FOR 2020 SECOND ROUNDER - PROTECTED.

Just trade him and finish this. Then you will stop this lie that Magic are "young upcoming team" when Gordon is only one younger than 22 that actually plays. Magic are middle of a pack team in terms of talent, filled with contract warriors,already 8th most expensive team in NBA that probably won't make playoffs. Team that ruined their future by trading Oladipo and Sabonis for 27 years old rental who isn't even that good.

Vogel is as big a player's coach as there can be. He is as dedicated to developing young talent as there can be. He played Paul George and Miles Turner in the starting lineup as rookies, and Lance Stephenson as a sophomore. His dedication to dedication to development of raw talent turned Roy Hibbert into a 2x All Star. And it's not like those Pacers teams were absolutely devoid of drama or immaturity.

But that doesn't change the fact that even when he plays, Hezonja doesn't look good. His shooting is off, his confidence is shot, and his attitude sucks. He didn't like his coach last year? Tough cookies. This is a league for grownups. I saw him literally walk by a pass to him and let it go out of bounds. Then laugh. Every single player in this league has to earn their minutes. Lottery picks aren't immune from this anymore than anyone else.

Hezonja didn't like coach last year? You mean guy that undercut his way to become coach , was coach for few months and gave up around January ? In process did everything in his power to ruin Magic by asking for trade Harris away ( after he almost ruined his career with Bucks) and killed Paytons confidence and kept Mario on 1 mistake per game for whole season? Yea that Skiles run was really epic.

We don't talk about Mario earning min, we talk about fact that he is last man of rotation that plays 8 min per month and situation won't get better any time soon. So why not just let him go and trade?
Also talking about "earning " min is laughable when you know that Jeff Green "earns " his min by getting payed $15M so he must play and he is always, night in and night out worst player on offense and defense. But heeeey, gotta respect that salary.

Aside from Skiles's time in Orlando seeming like a waste, which there is really absolutely nothing that can be done to change unless you own a time machine, I disagree with pretty much everything you have to say.

The only things that get you anywhere in this league are hard work and on-court performance. The moment the season begins, nobody cares what number you got drafted at.

[MagicStarwipe]

I'd love for Mario to play. I really would. Unfortunately he's just not a good player.

[pepe1991]

I'd love for Mario to play. I really would. Unfortunately he's just not a good player.

Retoric of this post is epic. So people don't want to trade him, but call him bust and don't want him to play because " he didn't earn it " despite clear fact that guys like CJ Watson and Green play just because they are born earlier, not because they "earned it" or they are playing any better than him.
And this is main reason why i hope they trade him, because it's hopeless situation for him and for a team. They can gain literally nothing by keeping him because development is myth if you DNP guy for a season.

[Bensational]

Is this a prank? You really belive Payton and Vučević are having good seasons ,despite all stats show that they are pretty much below average at everything ( compared to other players on their position ) i really can't help you.
Vučević for example is offensive center with 3rd worst TS% in whole league, that makes him 3rd least effective scorer among 57 Cs in NBA.
Vučević and his case are laughable, lowest PPG ever, second lowest TS% of career, lowest FG% , awful free trow attemps per min, awful free trow percentages despite shooting being his stronger side. Just awful season overall. And despite all that he still had balls to bi**h in front of media about him being benched.

Look i'm not saying that his attitude is good for him, but i can understand him . He didn't play month and half and he only gets 3 min of garbage time, so he is frustrated and shows no will to be there playing 3 min of garbage time knowing that it really means nothing. And in same time team refuses to send him to D league and give him some burn. I really,really hope that he asks for trade at December 15.

Yeah, Vuc and Payton are definitely playing some of their best basketball this season. Vuc is playing both ends and doing so at a high level. What impact he's lost in shooting (which I'd say is likely just a slump), he's gained much more in defense, improved passing and adding 3pt range. He's a mug more complete player this season. Payton, too, has improved his drives and scoring at the rim, improved his defense and his 3pt shooting. They're are the most complete this year than they've been at any point prior in their careers.

Mario isn't a complete player. He isn't even a good one way player. He had a whole lot of minutes during the Olympics but that didn't translate to him becoming a star - he still underwhelmed there.

Frank Vogel and Chad Forcier have a track record of developing players well. Mario has a track record of being egotistical. If there's a breakdown there, who do you think is the most likely candidate to blame? And when Mario finally gets a chance and then proceeds to sulk on the court, then you should have all the answers you need. He was benched to recalibrate his attitude, and it looks like it still needs recalibration.

I understand his feelings, too. But the reality is you can only afford to have that attitude if you're good enough to back it up. He's certainly not that good yet. I'm sure if he wanted to go to the D-League the team would accomodate, but he seems more like the kind of kid who would take that as disrespect, too.

[Bensational]

I'd love for Mario to play. I really would. Unfortunately he's just not a good player.

Retoric of this post is epic. So people don't want to trade him, but call him bust and don't want him to play because " he didn't earn it " despite clear fact that guys like CJ Watson and Green play just because they are born earlier, not because they "earned it" or they are playing any better than him.
And this is main reason why i hope they trade him, because it's hopeless situation for him and for a team. They can gain literally nothing by keeping him because development is myth if you DNP guy for a season.

They do play better than him. They play defense, which is an integral part of Vogel's system. They make rotations when needed and they stick to their man well. Mario still isn't across that stuff. Hell, he literally hasn't even tried to play defense lately.

You only seem to value one end of the court, offense, and that's why you don't understand why Mario isn't playing. It's not about age, it's about brains, ability and a willingness to play how the team wants you to play. None of those are strengths in Mario's game right now.

Just have patience man. Mario will get back on the court later this season once everything is much more ironed out, and once he shows he can make the right plays.

[MagicStarwipe]

I'd love for Mario to play. I really would. Unfortunately he's just not a good player.

Retoric of this post is epic. So people don't want to trade him, but call him bust and don't want him to play because " he didn't earn it " despite clear fact that guys like CJ Watson and Green play just because they are born earlier, not because they "earned it" or they are playing any better than him.
And this is main reason why i hope they trade him, because it's hopeless situation for him and for a team. They can gain literally nothing by keeping him because development is myth if you DNP guy for a season.

If he had any b-ball IQ at all it would be fine. He just can't seem to do anything right when he's on the court though. It would be one thing if he could consistently knock down shots.

[Bensational]

This is the PR battle I was referring to. Vogel and Forcier are given the benefit of the doubt when Skiles never was. Hezonja's tantrums have played into this, but let's not forget that he was a useful rotation piece last year. You can certainly make an argument for his poor defense as the reason for his removal from Vogel's rotation, but you can't blame effort. Hezonja always played hard before he was removed from the rotation entirely. Nobody buys in when they feel they are being treated unfairly.

This isn't about pissing contests, it's about getting the most out of what you have for the sake of the organization. The Hezonja situation is untenable at this point. The number five pick in a strong draft is close to becoming a sunk cost after less than 18 months. Blame the player for that if you wish to.

Vogel gets the pass because he has a solid track record of embracing youth. He's also already shown with our current guys that he can get them playing the way he wants, even if that's meant benching some guys who consider themselves starters. When you've got all that behind him, and then you look at Mario who is clumsy on offense, plays bad defense, failed to stand out in the Olympics when he had minutes on a team starved for offensive options, and now sulks when on the court, it's completely understandable why Vogel gets a pass.

The other pro Vogel thing is that I don't think Vogel will hold Mario's recent attitude against him. He's a player's coach who I think will continue reaching out to him and giving him small opportunities, and he'll reward him when he earns it.

So yeah, I put that on Mario. And I genuinely hope he can buy into what the team wants him to do soon, and continue to develop, because he's got a lot of potential. Of course I'd rather see him on the court than Jeff Green. But right now I think there's more pressure on the team to win games and get back into the playoff race than to accomodate one young guy who doesn't even look that impressive when on the court. AG and Elf are equally young, but they still contribute because they've got at least some NBA caliber skills and they can play both ends - and both have been moved in and out of the starting lineup this season without complaint.

If we were tanking, then yeah it should be the Mario show. But since we're not his development needs to align with what the team is doing.

[pepe1991]

I'd love for Mario to play. I really would. Unfortunately he's just not a good player.

Retoric of this post is epic. So people don't want to trade him, but call him bust and don't want him to play because " he didn't earn it " despite clear fact that guys like CJ Watson and Green play just because they are born earlier, not because they "earned it" or they are playing any better than him.
And this is main reason why i hope they trade him, because it's hopeless situation for him and for a team. They can gain literally nothing by keeping him because development is myth if you DNP guy for a season.

They do play better than him. They play defense, which is an integral part of Vogel's system. They make rotations when needed and they stick to their man well. Mario still isn't across that stuff. Hell, he literally hasn't even tried to play defense lately.

You only seem to value one end of the court, offense, and that's why you don't understand why Mario isn't playing. It's not about age, it's about brains, ability and a willingness to play how the team wants you to play. None of those are strengths in Mario's game right now.

Just have patience man. Mario will get back on the court later this season once everything is much more ironed out, and once he shows he can make the right plays.

Jeff Green plays defense???
You can't be serious? I'm not sure that even Jeff Green would say that Jeff Green plays defense.

[pepe1991]

Is this a prank? You really belive Payton and Vučević are having good seasons ,despite all stats show that they are pretty much below average at everything ( compared to other players on their position ) i really can't help you.
Vučević for example is offensive center with 3rd worst TS% in whole league, that makes him 3rd least effective scorer among 57 Cs in NBA.
Vučević and his case are laughable, lowest PPG ever, second lowest TS% of career, lowest FG% , awful free trow attemps per min, awful free trow percentages despite shooting being his stronger side. Just awful season overall. And despite all that he still had balls to bi**h in front of media about him being benched.

Look i'm not saying that his attitude is good for him, but i can understand him . He didn't play month and half and he only gets 3 min of garbage time, so he is frustrated and shows no will to be there playing 3 min of garbage time knowing that it really means nothing. And in same time team refuses to send him to D league and give him some burn. I really,really hope that he asks for trade at December 15.

Yeah, Vuc and Payton are definitely playing some of their best basketball this season. Vuc is playing both ends and doing so at a high level. What impact he's lost in shooting (which I'd say is likely just a slump), he's gained much more in defense, improved passing and adding 3pt range. He's a mug more complete player this season. Payton, too, has improved his drives and scoring at the rim, improved his defense and his 3pt shooting. They're are the most complete this year than they've been at any point prior in their careers.

Mario isn't a complete player. He isn't even a good one way player. He had a whole lot of minutes during the Olympics but that didn't translate to him becoming a star - he still underwhelmed there.

Frank Vogel and Chad Forcier have a track record of developing players well. Mario has a track record of being egotistical. If there's a breakdown there, who do you think is the most likely candidate to blame? And when Mario finally gets a chance and then proceeds to sulk on the court, then you should have all the answers you need. He was benched to recalibrate his attitude, and it looks like it still needs recalibration.

I understand his feelings, too. But the reality is you can only afford to have that attitude if you're good enough to back it up. He's certainly not that good yet. I'm sure if he wanted to go to the D-League the team would accomodate, but he seems more like the kind of kid who would take that as disrespect, too.

Yea i mean sure, vučević and Payton are playing better, because you said so. Who needs stats when we have Phil Jackson as moderator of a forum. I have no will to insult you, but Vučević is awful ,just because his defense went from awful to terrible it doesn't mean he is now good, matter of fact now he is just equally terrible on both ends.
Payton , aside of 2 games, has been player that showed zero development over last 3 years, just like Gordon. They are copy past same players today as they were in 2014.
Hezonja at Olympics overplayed Batum who makes $120M . He also was shooting 50% for 3 .

PRoblem is simple, with healthy Meeks , and with stuborn coach that forces Gordon at SF , not allowing Mario to even try to play that position, he will DNP until the end of a season , or at least competitive part of a season. In other words it will be second year in Marios career where "winning" was priority over him, and winning simply won't happen for this Magic team because they are again on pace to win 32 to 35 game and go nowhere.

So when you put that in perspective you get to the point where you have to ask yourself why they don't simply trade him and cash ond fact that he was lottery pick from last year ?

[Bensational]

Yeah cool story bro. Maybe you should just go hang at the Hezonja forum since he's the only reason you're here and he can do no wrong in your eyes.

PS, if you wanna talk about stats why don't you acknowledge Mario's TS% of 36%??? How can you back a dude who's shooting so absolutely attrociously, when that's the one and only skill he's supposed to be good at? Give me a break, dude. The kid is playing like trash right now and he's the only one that can change that. Vogel can't put puppet strings on him and physically show him how to play the game.

[pepe1991]

Yeah cool story bro. Maybe you should just go hang at the Hezonja forum since he's the only reason you're here and he can do no wrong in your eyes.

PS, if you wanna talk about stats why don't you acknowledge Mario's TS% of 36%??? How can you back a dude who's shooting so absolutely attrociously, when that's the one and only skill he's supposed to be good at? Give me a break, dude. The kid is playing like trash right now and he's the only one that can change that. Vogel can't put puppet strings on him and physically show him how to play the game.

Because watching TS% and overall stats for player logged 150 min ,aka 3 full games is laughably stupid? You should know that without me even having to explain it.
How can he change it if he in 23 games only had 150 min? Of 1100 max?

I didn't even start this Hezonja thing here, i just replyed to somebody People here call him bust. To be bust you should at least have a chance to suck. He can't even have that. He is player that in 13 months with Magic never got a chance to show what he can or can't do. It was always 12.-13 mpg in rookie year, and DNP is second. Never got freedom or anything and now people dig into his body language based on 3 min of garbage time that team lost BY FREAKING 30 POINTS AGAINST TEAM THAT DIDN'T HAVE THEIR BEST PLAYER AT FREAKIN HOME. But it all must be Marios fault ,right , his body language was biggest takeaway here after losing by 30 .

And yes, maybe i should go on Hezonjas forums , people there would probably be much more objective about Magic than some Magic fans can. Magic fans are only fans in the world that after losing by 30 focus on body language of 21 years old player that PLAYED 5 FREAKING MIN AFTER GAME WAS OVER.
Who cares that Nikola Vučević in that game missed 9 of 14 shots .You said he is good so it must be true
Who cares that Jeff Green was 1/5 ,you said he is good on defense
Who cares that Evan Fournier after making first 3 shots missed 10 of next 11, " he is our go to guy"
Who cares that highest payed player on a team is by all advanced stats one of most worthless singings in FA along with Joakim Noah.
Who cares that Gordons TS% dropped by 8% from last year because he simply can't play SF

ONly thing that matters is body language of somebody who played 4 min and didn't sprint on defense when team was down by 28
Oh and yea, he also made jumpshot in progress, but who cares , he didn't sprint on defense !! Just ...
I'm done. Won't reply any more. Just laugh in silence.

[Bensational]

He's playing less minutes than last season and taking just as many shots. He averages 1 shot per 2 minutes. His USG% his 24.7%. That's featured player level. Those are opportunities for him to prove something, and all he's proving is that he's got poor shot selection, and when he doesn't, he's not making shots. He's had 72 shots in 14 games, and he's hitting 3's (2 per game) at 17% 17 FREAKING PERCENT! That's disgusting. That's worse than Jeff Green. That's worse than CJ Watson.

You want to see more minutes of that? He got more minutes at the Olympics and did nothing with it - you've got no answer for that, do you? Who do you want to blame for that? Who's fault was that, because obviously you're not going to think Mario was the reason he underperformed.

Why should we risk our team's ability to win a game just because you've got an irrational need to see a bad player make more bad plays? Your use of stats to try and support your opinion is incredibly skewed, too. You want to point to bad individual games from other players, bad averages for other players, but there isn't a single statistic that makes Mario look good. Not one.

But the answer is... more minutes? Because, y'know, Mario has shown he knows how to make such good use of the minutes he currently gets, so of course he's gonna be better in more minutes, right? Mario's had 3 games this season where he got over 20mpg, and in those games he shot 36% overall and 17% from 3. Yeah, give me more of that! That's some winning basketball right there! That's a superstar in the making and we're obviously just not seeing it!

And nobody has put this loss on Mario. You're just inventing that as something to deflect attention from the fact that Mario isn't any good. Yes, the team lost, and the other players are responsible for that. But we can use those garbage minutes to get glimpses of guys who don't get much burn to see how they're progressing - and in those minutes, Mario looked like a petulant child who was offended he'd been allowed on the court. Simple as that. If you think that's acceptable behaviour then you frankly don't have a clue what acceptable behaviour is. Is it understandable? Sure, in a way. The frustration is understandable, but the lack of professionalism from someone being paid stupid amounts of money to do what he does isn't understandable in the slightest.

[Smitty731]

Hey fellas,

I just wanted to check in after reading a lot of the Hezonja comments.

I've been around the team a lot and also talk to a lot of people around the league on a regular basis. Both on and off the record the Magic folks says that Hezonja is working hard in practice. They don't see any attitude issues. He's just struggling. Generally, when you get the same message on and off the record, you can take it as being the truth.

Around the league there are a several teams who would love to grab him, but they want him on the cheap. The hope is that he's a late bloomer. But I can also tell you that those teams are hearing the same thing about him working hard. So, the fear is growing that he just might not be good. He was supposed to be a knock down shooter with the athleticism to make plays off the bounce and defend. He has really shown any of that.

I just wanted to share what I've heard direct from people with knowledge of him and the situation.

[Supreme]

Hey fellas,

I just wanted to check in after reading a lot of the Hezonja comments.

I've been around the team a lot and also talk to a lot of people around the league on a regular basis. Both on and off the record the Magic folks says that Hezonja is working hard in practice. They don't see any attitude issues. He's just struggling. Generally, when you get the same message on and off the record, you can take it as being the truth.

Around the league there are a several teams who would love to grab him, but they want him on the cheap. The hope is that he's a late bloomer. But I can also tell you that those teams are hearing the same thing about him working hard. So, the fear is growing that he just might not be good. He was supposed to be a knock down shooter with the athleticism to make plays off the bounce and defend. He has really shown any of that.

I just wanted to share what I've heard direct from people with knowledge of him and the situation.

[ChosenSavior]

Hey fellas,

I just wanted to check in after reading a lot of the Hezonja comments.

I've been around the team a lot and also talk to a lot of people around the league on a regular basis. Both on and off the record the Magic folks says that Hezonja is working hard in practice. They don't see any attitude issues. He's just struggling. Generally, when you get the same message on and off the record, you can take it as being the truth.

Around the league there are a several teams who would love to grab him, but they want him on the cheap. The hope is that he's a late bloomer. But I can also tell you that those teams are hearing the same thing about him working hard. So, the fear is growing that he just might not be good. He was supposed to be a knock down shooter with the athleticism to make plays off the bounce and defend. He has really shown any of that.

I just wanted to share what I've heard direct from people with knowledge of him and the situation.

Thank you for the info kind sir. That really sheds some light on the report right now that Frank is looking to send him to the D-League (pretty sure there's a separate thread on this topic).