The Vertical: Rob Hennigan Fired

[Gomagic44]

Do you think coach lue wills lebron to a championship? Of course our players are soft. They've been soft for 5 years. What are you talking about? You think Frank Vogel willed our franchise worse loss with his rotations? We have the worst roster we've ever had. Since 1989. Your grasping for straws to save Hennigans honor. Vuc is weak. Fournier is weak. Mario is weak. Etc. Look at our season. Henny is weak. We are a disaster. Skiles is weak? Lol. He got out of dodge when he saw a train wreck.


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[JF5]

Do you think coach lue wills lebron to a championship? Of course our players are soft. They've been soft for 5 years. What are you talking about? You think Frank Vogel willed our franchise worse loss with his rotations? We have the worst roster we've ever had. Since 1989. Your grasping for straws to save Hennigans honor. Vuc is weak. Fournier is weak. Mario is weak. Etc. Look at our season. Henny is weak. We are a disaster. Skiles is weak? Lol. He got out of dodge when he saw a train wreck.


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Skiles quit on the team... His distraught behavior when the team started sliding (running out of answers), and his alleged attempt to resign during the middle of the season are all documented. He got HIS players in a trade that were in his prior regime and he allegedly had Martins on his side (as it seemed he and Skiles were on the same page). I doubt letting go of young talent for a seasonal rentals was part of Hennigan's plan of "organic growth". Yes, Rob has made questionable decisions, but I find it hard to believe with the Skiles hiring and the Tobias Harris trade that he had as much authority as Martins is claiming he did.

[Gomagic44]

Do you think coach lue wills lebron to a championship? Of course our players are soft. They've been soft for 5 years. What are you talking about? You think Frank Vogel willed our franchise worse loss with his rotations? We have the worst roster we've ever had. Since 1989. Your grasping for straws to save Hennigans honor. Vuc is weak. Fournier is weak. Mario is weak. Etc. Look at our season. Henny is weak. We are a disaster. Skiles is weak? Lol. He got out of dodge when he saw a train wreck.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Skiles quit on the team... His distraught behavior when the team started sliding (running out of answers), and his alleged attempt to resign during the middle of the season are all documented. He got HIS players in a trade that were in his prior regime and he allegedly had Martins on his side (as it seemed he and Skiles were on the same page). I doubt letting go of young talent for a seasonal rentals was part of Hennigan's plan of "organic growth". Yes, Rob has made questionable decisions, but I find it hard to believe with the Skiles hiring and the Tobias Harris trade that he had as much authority as Martins is claiming he did.

It was a dink in the total wreck of the Hennigan era.





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[BadMofoPimp]

Skiles= 35 wins
Vogel= 29 wins

But **** Skiles doe....I think they both know this roster isn't built to win in today's NBA.

Martins needs to be removed from. Bball ops but I challenge anyone to identify a better and available coach when we hired Skiles

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Skiles is a decent coach... But what this team needed and Scott's history with young teams and wearing out his welcome, he simply didn't fit/belong here. Plus, with him essentially quitting on the team and being at a loss for what to do in the midst of the losing streak in the middle of the season shows he's not mentally tough (Literally going into the office and wanting to resign at the point). Just imagine 3-4 years of that guy being partly interested and not knowing what to do half the time. That's not somebody who you want coaching/leading your team at all.

A short nonathletic guy who played a tough brand of basketball for 9 NBA seasons in the 90's and who took teams out of mediocrity to be playoff teams as a coach doesn't strike me as mentally soft or someone who doesn't know what to do during a losing streak. You're totally off base in that regard imo.

With what Martins eluded to about Hennigan wanting to basically breastfeed the players it seems reasonable to say that the group of players that we have is the bigger issue. Skiles knew that and he knew Hennigan would rather coddle them than hold them accountable which is why he left not because he didnt know what to do during a losing streak or because he was not mentally tough. He didnt have the support of his boss and they had two completely different ideas of how the team should be coached.

The fact that Vogel has had to constantly ask them to play hard over the course of this last season, all the bad losses including the one against the Bulls, and the fact that every year they seem to play well when the pressure is off (what i call garbage time) is further evidence that its they, the players that are mentally soft, not Skiles and not Vogel.

The issue is either with the personnel that we have on this team or their mindset and that's where the change needs to happen.

Skiles had no issue benching players for lack of effort which is something Vogel rarely did.

[Nemesis21]

Do you think coach lue wills lebron to a championship? Of course our players are soft. They've been soft for 5 years. What are you talking about? You think Frank Vogel willed our franchise worse loss with his rotations? We have the worst roster we've ever had. Since 1989. Your grasping for straws to save Hennigans honor. Vuc is weak. Fournier is weak. Mario is weak. Etc. Look at our season. Henny is weak. We are a disaster. Skiles is weak? Lol. He got out of dodge when he saw a train wreck.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Skiles quit on the team... His distraught behavior when the team started sliding (running out of answers), and his alleged attempt to resign during the middle of the season are all documented. He got HIS players in a trade that were in his prior regime and he allegedly had Martins on his side (as it seemed he and Skiles were on the same page). I doubt letting go of young talent for a seasonal rentals was part of Hennigan's plan of "organic growth". Yes, Rob has made questionable decisions, but I find it hard to believe with the Skiles hiring and the Tobias Harris trade that he had as much authority as Martins is claiming he did.

It was a dink in the total wreck of the Hennigan era.





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It was more than a dink.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Skiles is a decent coach... But what this team needed and Scott's history with young teams and wearing out his welcome, he simply didn't fit/belong here. Plus, with him essentially quitting on the team and being at a loss for what to do in the midst of the losing streak in the middle of the season shows he's not mentally tough (Literally going into the office and wanting to resign at the point). Just imagine 3-4 years of that guy being partly interested and not knowing what to do half the time. That's not somebody who you want coaching/leading your team at all.

A short nonathletic guy who played a tough brand of basketball for 9 NBA seasons in the 90's and who took teams out of mediocrity to be playoff teams as a coach doesn't strike me as mentally soft or someone who doesn't know what to do during a losing streak. You're totally off base in that regard imo.

With what Martins eluded to about Hennigan wanting to basically breastfeed the players it seems reasonable to say that the group of players that we have is the bigger issue. Skiles knew that and he knew Hennigan would rather coddle them than hold them accountable which is why he left not because he didnt know what to do during a losing streak or because he was not mentally tough. He didnt have the support of his boss and they had two completely different ideas of how the team should be coached.

The fact that Vogel has had to constantly ask them to play hard over the course of this last season, all the bad losses including the one against the Bulls, and the fact that every year they seem to play well when the pressure is off (what i call garbage time) is further evidence that its they, the players that are mentally soft, not Skiles and not Vogel.

The issue is either with the personnel that we have on this team or their mindset and that's where the change needs to happen.

It doesn't make any sense... Martins liked the guy, Hennigan was supposedly a goner apparently if Martins was leaning towards Skiles anyways (Since he apparently pushed for the hire). If the apparent soft, coddling GM in Hennigan made a supposed (mentally tough) coach quit after 1 season, whose really unfit at their job?

And I don't buy the fact that the players was soft... I feel its an excuse due to him not being able to coach a young team out of a downward spiral.

Guys like Oladipo/Harris/Gordon are anything but soft. The team was rolling for the first two months of the season before teams correctly made adjustments and Scott had no answers for them (to which he kept saying in post game press-conferences after the losses during that stretch of the season). That to me was very concerning but it was overlooked as the season went on. He just wasn't fit to be an NBA coach anymore.

I dont understand most of your first sentence but if you read the interview, apparently Skiles approached Martins. We dont know what was said but if Martins told him that they're sticking with Hennigan and Skiles knew it wouldnt work then it kinda makes sense. I'm not going to get in a back and forth about whos more mentally tough between Hennigan or Scott Skiles because its pretty apparent 9/10 Scott wins that battle and its not even close.
If you want to talk about being unfit, Hennigan was the one who was fired. Skiles won 35 games while Vogel won 29 so we can get into that discussion if you want.

Having to constantly ask the players to play hard is not something a head coach should have to ask them to do weekly. Your boss shouldn't have to ask you to do your job the right way every day should they?
I didn't say any of the players are physically soft, but they are definately mentally soft. I dont understand how in the hell anyone could miss that. They were soft under Skiles and they were soft under Vogel. Our team isnt mentally tough in any capacity.

And if you think Skiles doesnt know how to coach a young team out of a "downward" spiral then you know absolutely nothing about his coaching history, because coaching young teams out of downward spirals is what he's done his entire career. And lets pretend you're right...Then I guess that means Vogel cant either using your logic. Its a globally known fact that its exactly what Skiles does.

Magic
2012-13: 20-62 - Vaughn
2013-14: 23-59 - Vaughn
2014-15: 25-57 - Vaughn/ Borrego
2015-16: 35-47 - Skiles
2016-17: 29 53 - Vogel

Bulls
02-03: 30-52 - Bill Cartwright
03-04: 23-59 - Bill Cartwright
04-05: 47-35 - Scott Skiles (Playoffs L in 1st Rd)
05-06 41-41 - Scott Skiles (Playoffs L in 1st Rd)
06-07 49-33 - Scott Skiles (Playoffs L in 2nd Rd)

Bucks
06-07: 28-54 - Terry Stotts
07-08: 26-65 - Larry Krystkowiak
08-09: 34-48 - Scott Skiles
09-10: 46-36 - Scott Skiles (Playoffs L 1st Rd)
10-11: 35-47 - Scott Skiles
11-12: 31-35 - Scott Skiles

I mean I dont know what else....I didn't even include Phoenix.

Overall its not about the coaching for me, its the fact that our players are indeed mental midgets. That could be due to the losing culture or their limitations but something needs to change fast and I don't know how to do that outside of landing an elite player and getting W's.

[BadMofoPimp]

A short nonathletic guy who played a tough brand of basketball for 9 NBA seasons in the 90's and who took teams out of mediocrity to be playoff teams as a coach doesn't strike me as mentally soft or someone who doesn't know what to do during a losing streak. You're totally off base in that regard imo.

With what Martins eluded to about Hennigan wanting to basically breastfeed the players it seems reasonable to say that the group of players that we have is the bigger issue. Skiles knew that and he knew Hennigan would rather coddle them than hold them accountable which is why he left not because he didnt know what to do during a losing streak or because he was not mentally tough. He didnt have the support of his boss and they had two completely different ideas of how the team should be coached.

The fact that Vogel has had to constantly ask them to play hard over the course of this last season, all the bad losses including the one against the Bulls, and the fact that every year they seem to play well when the pressure is off (what i call garbage time) is further evidence that its they, the players that are mentally soft, not Skiles and not Vogel.

The issue is either with the personnel that we have on this team or their mindset and that's where the change needs to happen.

It doesn't make any sense... Martins liked the guy, Hennigan was supposedly a goner apparently if Martins was leaning towards Skiles anyways (Since he apparently pushed for the hire). If the apparent soft, coddling GM in Hennigan made a supposed (mentally tough) coach quit after 1 season, whose really unfit at their job?

And I don't buy the fact that the players was soft... I feel its an excuse due to him not being able to coach a young team out of a downward spiral.

Guys like Oladipo/Harris/Gordon are anything but soft. The team was rolling for the first two months of the season before teams correctly made adjustments and Scott had no answers for them (to which he kept saying in post game press-conferences after the losses during that stretch of the season). That to me was very concerning but it was overlooked as the season went on. He just wasn't fit to be an NBA coach anymore.

I dont understand most of your first sentence but if you read the interview, apparently Skiles approached Martins. We dont know what was said but if Martins told him that they're sticking with Hennigan and Skiles knew it wouldnt work then it kinda makes sense. I'm not going to get in a back and forth about whos more mentally tough between Hennigan or Scott Skiles because its pretty apparent 9/10 Scott wins that battle and its not even close.
If you want to talk about being unfit, Hennigan was the one who was fired. Skiles won 35 games while Vogel won 29 so we can get into that discussion if you want.

Having to constantly ask the players to play hard is not something a head coach should have to ask them to do weekly. Your boss shouldn't have to ask you to do your job the right way every day should they?
I didn't say any of the players are physically soft, but they are definately mentally soft. I dont understand how in the hell anyone could miss that. They were soft under Skiles and they were soft under Vogel. Our team isnt mentally tough in any capacity.

And if you think Skiles doesnt know how to coach a young team out of a "downward" spiral then you know absolutely nothing about his coaching history, because coaching young teams out of downward spirals is what he's done his entire career. And lets pretend you're right...Then I guess that means Vogel cant either using your logic. Its a globally known fact that its exactly what Skiles does.

Magic
2012-13: 20-62 - Vaughn
2013-14: 23-59 - Vaughn
2014-15: 25-57 - Vaughn/ Borrego
2015-16: 35-47 - Skiles
2016-17: 29 53 - Vogel

Bulls
02-03: 30-52 - Bill Cartwright
03-04: 23-59 - Bill Cartwright
04-05: 47-35 - Scott Skiles (Playoffs L in 1st Rd)
05-06 41-41 - Scott Skiles (Playoffs L in 1st Rd)
06-07 49-33 - Scott Skiles (Playoffs L in 2nd Rd)

Bucks
06-07: 28-54 - Terry Stotts
07-08: 26-65 - Larry Krystkowiak
08-09: 34-48 - Scott Skiles
09-10: 46-36 - Scott Skiles (Playoffs L 1st Rd)
10-11: 35-47 - Scott Skiles
11-12: 31-35 - Scott Skiles

I mean I dont know what else....I didn't even include Phoenix.

Overall its not about the coaching for me, its the fact that our players are indeed mental midgets. That could be due to the losing culture or their limitations but something needs to change fast and I don't know how to do that outside of landing an elite player and getting W's.

It is about teaching these players chemistry and adopting a winning mentality. No amount of talent added to the roster will make this team a winner if the players don't buy into that concept.

[OrlandoDream]

I have a feeling that we are waiting for Doc to finish his playoffs. I don't think there is another ownership in the NBA that embraces Nepotism as much as Devos/Martins.

What has Doc accomplished as GM in LA?

[JF5]

A short nonathletic guy who played a tough brand of basketball for 9 NBA seasons in the 90's and who took teams out of mediocrity to be playoff teams as a coach doesn't strike me as mentally soft or someone who doesn't know what to do during a losing streak. You're totally off base in that regard imo.

With what Martins eluded to about Hennigan wanting to basically breastfeed the players it seems reasonable to say that the group of players that we have is the bigger issue. Skiles knew that and he knew Hennigan would rather coddle them than hold them accountable which is why he left not because he didnt know what to do during a losing streak or because he was not mentally tough. He didnt have the support of his boss and they had two completely different ideas of how the team should be coached.

The fact that Vogel has had to constantly ask them to play hard over the course of this last season, all the bad losses including the one against the Bulls, and the fact that every year they seem to play well when the pressure is off (what i call garbage time) is further evidence that its they, the players that are mentally soft, not Skiles and not Vogel.

The issue is either with the personnel that we have on this team or their mindset and that's where the change needs to happen.

It doesn't make any sense... Martins liked the guy, Hennigan was supposedly a goner apparently if Martins was leaning towards Skiles anyways (Since he apparently pushed for the hire). If the apparent soft, coddling GM in Hennigan made a supposed (mentally tough) coach quit after 1 season, whose really unfit at their job?

And I don't buy the fact that the players was soft... I feel its an excuse due to him not being able to coach a young team out of a downward spiral.

Guys like Oladipo/Harris/Gordon are anything but soft. The team was rolling for the first two months of the season before teams correctly made adjustments and Scott had no answers for them (to which he kept saying in post game press-conferences after the losses during that stretch of the season). That to me was very concerning but it was overlooked as the season went on. He just wasn't fit to be an NBA coach anymore.

I dont understand most of your first sentence but if you read the interview, apparently Skiles approached Martins. We dont know what was said but if Martins told him that they're sticking with Hennigan and Skiles knew it wouldnt work then it kinda makes sense. I'm not going to get in a back and forth about whos more mentally tough between Hennigan or Scott Skiles because its pretty apparent 9/10 Scott wins that battle and its not even close.
If you want to talk about being unfit, Hennigan was the one who was fired. Skiles won 35 games while Vogel won 29 so we can get into that discussion if you want.

Having to constantly ask the players to play hard is not something a head coach should have to ask them to do weekly. Your boss shouldn't have to ask you to do your job the right way every day should they?
I didn't say any of the players are physically soft, but they are definately mentally soft. I dont understand how in the hell anyone could miss that. They were soft under Skiles and they were soft under Vogel. Our team isnt mentally tough in any capacity.

And if you think Skiles doesnt know how to coach a young team out of a "downward" spiral then you know absolutely nothing about his coaching history, because coaching young teams out of downward spirals is what he's done his entire career. And lets pretend you're right...Then I guess that means Vogel cant either using your logic. Its a globally known fact that its exactly what Skiles does.

Magic
2012-13: 20-62 - Vaughn
2013-14: 23-59 - Vaughn
2014-15: 25-57 - Vaughn/ Borrego
2015-16: 35-47 - Skiles
2016-17: 29 53 - Vogel

Bulls
02-03: 30-52 - Bill Cartwright
03-04: 23-59 - Bill Cartwright
04-05: 47-35 - Scott Skiles (Playoffs L in 1st Rd)
05-06 41-41 - Scott Skiles (Playoffs L in 1st Rd)
06-07 49-33 - Scott Skiles (Playoffs L in 2nd Rd)

Bucks
06-07: 28-54 - Terry Stotts
07-08: 26-65 - Larry Krystkowiak
08-09: 34-48 - Scott Skiles
09-10: 46-36 - Scott Skiles (Playoffs L 1st Rd)
10-11: 35-47 - Scott Skiles
11-12: 31-35 - Scott Skiles

I mean I dont know what else....I didn't even include Phoenix.

Overall its not about the coaching for me, its the fact that our players are indeed mental midgets. That could be due to the losing culture or their limitations but something needs to change fast and I don't know how to do that outside of landing an elite player and getting W's.

Skiles did want to dictate Roster/Personnel decisions on the team. What I do agree on Martins with is that he didn't want his coach completely dictating where the direction the roster would go (as he had a GM in place). That probably angered Scott as he had to deal with the inexperience of a completely young team.

He won 35 games with a better team... I doubt he'd win that many games with the lack of versatility/depth/cohesion this years Magic team had. Having guys like Jeff Green be the 6th Man and Aaron Gordon be the Starting SF. Lol, That's much worse than having Tobias Harris or Evan Fournier as your starting SF/6th man combo.

That's the thing... He was brought in here to teach young/inexperienced players how to win/play the right way (as these only experienced losing). Turning it around in one year (Without a All-Star/Star Caliber player) just wasn't going to happen, it takes 2-3 years to overhaul a culture that has permeated for just as long.

Skiles dealt with that in each tenure with Milwaukee and Chicago in his first year.
The Bulls went 19-47 in the 03-04 Season
The Bucks went 34-48 in the 08-09 Season

Him bitching about coming in here and molding these players into tougher/harder working competitors WAS THE MAIN REASON WHY HE WAS HIRED. I don't think Rob or anyone else had a problem with that sort of mentality overseeing the talent compiled; but more of the fact that Skiles unwillingness to deal with certain players and the attempts to bury them in the depth charts or trade them for vet players because he didn't like them.

[PennytoShaq]

I have a feeling that we are waiting for Doc to finish his playoffs. I don't think there is another ownership in the NBA that embraces Nepotism as much as Devos/Martins.

What has Doc accomplished as GM in LA?

Well I think he could be quite good as President of Basketball Ops. Or a part owner, which I believe is what will happen. As a GM, he knows how to build veteran teams and he clearly has his guys that he likes to bring in, including his son. I wouldn't be that excited about him as GM here either, but I do not think that is the plan.

[Blue_and_Whte]

It doesn't make any sense... Martins liked the guy, Hennigan was supposedly a goner apparently if Martins was leaning towards Skiles anyways (Since he apparently pushed for the hire). If the apparent soft, coddling GM in Hennigan made a supposed (mentally tough) coach quit after 1 season, whose really unfit at their job?

And I don't buy the fact that the players was soft... I feel its an excuse due to him not being able to coach a young team out of a downward spiral.

Guys like Oladipo/Harris/Gordon are anything but soft. The team was rolling for the first two months of the season before teams correctly made adjustments and Scott had no answers for them (to which he kept saying in post game press-conferences after the losses during that stretch of the season). That to me was very concerning but it was overlooked as the season went on. He just wasn't fit to be an NBA coach anymore.

I dont understand most of your first sentence but if you read the interview, apparently Skiles approached Martins. We dont know what was said but if Martins told him that they're sticking with Hennigan and Skiles knew it wouldnt work then it kinda makes sense. I'm not going to get in a back and forth about whos more mentally tough between Hennigan or Scott Skiles because its pretty apparent 9/10 Scott wins that battle and its not even close.
If you want to talk about being unfit, Hennigan was the one who was fired. Skiles won 35 games while Vogel won 29 so we can get into that discussion if you want.

Having to constantly ask the players to play hard is not something a head coach should have to ask them to do weekly. Your boss shouldn't have to ask you to do your job the right way every day should they?
I didn't say any of the players are physically soft, but they are definately mentally soft. I dont understand how in the hell anyone could miss that. They were soft under Skiles and they were soft under Vogel. Our team isnt mentally tough in any capacity.

And if you think Skiles doesnt know how to coach a young team out of a "downward" spiral then you know absolutely nothing about his coaching history, because coaching young teams out of downward spirals is what he's done his entire career. And lets pretend you're right...Then I guess that means Vogel cant either using your logic. Its a globally known fact that its exactly what Skiles does.

Magic
2012-13: 20-62 - Vaughn
2013-14: 23-59 - Vaughn
2014-15: 25-57 - Vaughn/ Borrego
2015-16: 35-47 - Skiles
2016-17: 29 53 - Vogel

Bulls
02-03: 30-52 - Bill Cartwright
03-04: 23-59 - Bill Cartwright
04-05: 47-35 - Scott Skiles (Playoffs L in 1st Rd)
05-06 41-41 - Scott Skiles (Playoffs L in 1st Rd)
06-07 49-33 - Scott Skiles (Playoffs L in 2nd Rd)

Bucks
06-07: 28-54 - Terry Stotts
07-08: 26-65 - Larry Krystkowiak
08-09: 34-48 - Scott Skiles
09-10: 46-36 - Scott Skiles (Playoffs L 1st Rd)
10-11: 35-47 - Scott Skiles
11-12: 31-35 - Scott Skiles

I mean I dont know what else....I didn't even include Phoenix.

Overall its not about the coaching for me, its the fact that our players are indeed mental midgets. That could be due to the losing culture or their limitations but something needs to change fast and I don't know how to do that outside of landing an elite player and getting W's.

Skiles did want to dictate Roster/Personnel decisions on the team. What I do agree on Martins with is that he didn't want his coach completely dictating where the direction the roster would go (as he had a GM in place). That probably angered Scott as he had to deal with the inexperience of a completely young team.

He won 35 games with a better team... I doubt he'd win that many games with the lack of versatility/depth/cohesion this years Magic team had. Having guys like Jeff Green be the 6th Man and Aaron Gordon be the Starting SF. Lol, That's much worse than having Tobias Harris or Evan Fournier as your starting SF/6th man combo.

That's the thing... He was brought in here to teach young/inexperienced players how to win/play the right way (as these only experienced losing). Turning it around in one year (Without a All-Star/Star Caliber player) just wasn't going to happen, it takes 2-3 years to overhaul a culture that has permeated for just as long.

Skiles dealt with that in each tenure with Milwaukee and Chicago in his first year.
The Bulls went 19-47 in the 03-04 Season
The Bucks went 34-48 in the 08-09 Season

Him bitching about coming in here and molding these players into tougher/harder working competitors WAS THE MAIN REASON WHY HE WAS HIRED. I don't think Rob or anyone else had a problem with that sort of mentality overseeing the talent compiled; but more of the fact that Skiles unwillingness to deal with certain players and the attempts to bury them in the depth charts or trade them for vet players because he didn't like them.

Saying that Skiles was upset because he wanted to dictate roster and personnel decisions is an assumption on your part. The level of his involvement in those decisions was likely discussed prior to the hiring. Also all coaches have a say in the personnel they have with them on the sidelines. Regardless of that, how much worse would it have been if Skiles did have that pull? In the big picture Skiles has had more success winning than Hennigan.

It doesnt matter if your think he had a better team or not. It doesn't change the fact that its consistent with how his career has gone. You claimed that "he didnt know what to do when a young team was struggling" and I've given you factual evidence disputing that claim. He's given young, underachieving teams and they make the playoffs so its more than reasonable to say that your statement is completely incorrect based on the evidence and the fact that its common knowledge around the league. Furthermore had we not seen an improvement with that roster under Skiles then you'd be complaining that Skiles couldn't improve the team. So its a lose lose discussion.

I don't think there's this predetermined amount of time for a teams to turn it around and change the culture but i does typically take some amount of time. Either way who said anything about turning it around in one year? In every stop he's taught guys how to win and play the right way. The problem is that he's too tough on the soft minded millennials of our generation. Nobody on this team can handle being held accountable the way Skiles does it. You've got to hold their hand and stroke their egos so they dont get mad at you.

Skiles dealt with that in each tenure with Milwaukee and Chicago in his first year.
The Bulls went 19-47 in the 03-04 Season
The Bucks went 34-48 in the 08-09 Season

Dealt with what?

Skiles was "Bitching" about coming here? What the hell are you talking about? All three were in agreement that there needed to be a culture change and players needed to be held accountable. imo I don't think Hennigan realized what that entailed. And its apparent that Martins in the end, agreed with Skiles about the lack of accountability and lackadaisical culture that was apparently created by Hennigan.

In the wake of firing general manager Rob Hennigan, Magic CEO Alex Martins admitted that former coach Scott Skiles was right about the failed GM and should have stuck around until the team figured out what to do about it.
From talking to people close to the situation and listening to Martin’s public comments, it appears Skiles felt Hennigan and Perry coddled players and undermined the coaching staff’s ability to instill accountability. Skiles is a no-nonsense basketball lifer who didn’t like the work ethic of his young players or the culture created by the inexperienced Hennigan.

[JF5]

Saying that Skiles was upset because he wanted to dictate roster and personnel decisions is an assumption on your part. The level of his involvement in those decisions was likely discussed prior to the hiring. Also all coaches have a say in the personnel they have with them on the sidelines. Regardless of that, how much worse would it have been if Skiles did have that pull? In the big picture Skiles has had more success winning than Hennigan.

Didn't you just establish that he didn't like the roster because they were "too soft"? What other reason would be there for him to quit if he did like the direction of the team and couldn't dictate its course?

It doesnt matter if your think he had a better team or not. It doesn't change the fact that its consistent with how his career has gone. You claimed that "he didnt know what to do when a young team was struggling" and I've given you factual evidence disputing that claim. He's given young, underachieving teams and they make the playoffs so its more than reasonable to say that your statement is completely incorrect based on the evidence and the fact that its common knowledge around the league. Furthermore had we not seen an improvement with that roster under Skiles then you'd be complaining that Skiles couldn't improve the team. So its a lose lose discussion.

Skiles has turned teams around, I never denied that...Though I didn't like his signing I credited him for the improvement/effect that he had on this team during the year. I even wanted him to stay at least another year or two so there was some type of consistency with the staff for the young guys. But when he consistently admits in post game interviews after losses that he doesn't know what to do, or doesn't have the answers. How do you think that looks for a head coaching trying to lead a young team?

Dealt with what?

You also conveniently glossed over the fact that Skiles led the Bulls in his first season to a 19-47 record, and Milwaukee Bucks in 08-09 to a 34-48 season (First year there aswell). I was trying to prove a point that he might've pushed the team to the playoffs if the team stayed together another year. But obviously that didn't come to fruition.

Skiles was "Bitching" about coming here? What the hell are you talking about? All three were in agreement that there needed to be a culture change and players needed to be held accountable. imo I don't think Hennigan realized what that entailed. And its apparent that Martins in the end, agreed with Skiles about the lack of accountability and lackadaisical culture that was apparently created by Hennigan.

Bitching about the roster DURING his tenure here not before (Read carefully)... Plus, you just proved my point that all 3 guys wanted the guys to become tougher and be held accountable. Why would Hennigan continue to "coddle" the guys if they were all agreed to have a much more stern atmosphere with Skiles?

[OrlandoDream]

I have a feeling that we are waiting for Doc to finish his playoffs. I don't think there is another ownership in the NBA that embraces Nepotism as much as Devos/Martins.

What has Doc accomplished as GM in LA?

Well I think he could be quite good as President of Basketball Ops. Or a part owner, which I believe is what will happen. As a GM, he knows how to build veteran teams and he clearly has his guys that he likes to bring in, including his son. I wouldn't be that excited about him as GM here either, but I do not think that is the plan.

Cant be worse then what we have had. Ill take a second round treadmill then this garbage train any day.

[SOUL]

Skiles is irrelevant, he quit on the team. I don't care if he didn't like Rob, or the players or whatever. He gave up. I don't want to hear about accountability or "snowflakes" or whatever when you can't take being the coach of kids playing a game for a living. Maybe he shouldn't have applied for the job if he didn't want to be the leader of a rebuild.

If a player (sort of like Dwight, and he's done 10x more for the franchise than Skiles ever has) can get crap for basically quitting on the team, Skiles doesn't deserve to be talked about or debated if he's right or wrong.

[Bensational]

Perry was a part of building s championship Pistons team, then worked under Presti whilst they built a finals contending team (with Hennigan). Lloyd helped recruit guys that Thibs was able to turn into a contending force.

I'm gonna wager that those guys know more about how to handle players than a coach with very middling success and a reputation for alienating players. Or Martins for that matter.

It's pretty hypocritical for guys like Skiles and Martins to complain about accountability when neither of them have taken any lately. Skiles quit, and Martins threw Hennigan under the bus.

[Mr Magic Fan]

Perry was a part of building s championship Pistons team, then worked under Presti whilst they built a finals contending team (with Hennigan). Lloyd helped recruit guys that Thibs was able to turn into a contending force.

I'm gonna wager that those guys know more about how to handle players than a coach with very middling success and a reputation for alienating players. Or Martins for that matter.

It's pretty hypocritical for guys like Skiles and Martins to complain about accountability when neither of them have taken any lately. Skiles quit, and Martins threw Hennigan under the bus.

100 percent agree. The regime wasn't perfect, but the first two years the vision was clear. Clean up the cap, accumulate assets, and maintain flexibility. I appreciated the analytical and process oriented approach. In a business of uncertainty that's the best you ask for. Consistently make good decisions based on the available evidence and data and the results will eventually follow. Don't get bogged down with short term variance.

It's clear Martins and/or Devos wanted to accelerate the process. The timing of the Skiles hire was very poor. He is not a bad coach, just the wrong coach for a young developing squad. That hire transitioned the Magic to making different personal moves to appease an inpatient CEO and/or owner. I hope the organization can learn and evolve from these past 5 years. Previous Magic success has been due to good fortune. The pendulum has not swung that way this rebuild but hopefully when it does again we'll have the infrastructure to rely on sound decision making based on evidence and data.

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[BadMofoPimp]

Perry was a part of building s championship Pistons team, then worked under Presti whilst they built a finals contending team (with Hennigan). Lloyd helped recruit guys that Thibs was able to turn into a contending force.

I'm gonna wager that those guys know more about how to handle players than a coach with very middling success and a reputation for alienating players. Or Martins for that matter.

It's pretty hypocritical for guys like Skiles and Martins to complain about accountability when neither of them have taken any lately. Skiles quit, and Martins threw Hennigan under the bus.

This is hypothetical, but I have a feeling Henny threw Skiles under the bus to hire Vogel.

[RickB-Orlando]

Tobias Harris would not, will not, not, not, not save this team, much like oladipo he was inconsistent, does anyone remember Harris in his time here? He didn't make our team better, he didn't make the pistons better, he can score at times, he can't do what this team needs, we need a player who can take over a game and before you bitch about Fournier he is our most consistent player since he's been with us, I know he isn't the player this team needs like I was talking about but he is the perfect player to play next to the guy we need, or even off the bench, ala Terry, ala manu

I always thought the criticism of Tobias was a bit unfair. He's a consistent 17/8 guy when given 30 mpg. He's not a go-to scorer, but is a qualified third option, maybe even second option if the first option is a real star.

Criticizing Tobias for not being a go to scorer is the same as criticizing Fournier for not being a go to scorer. They're both fine 2d or 3d options.

[Blue_and_Whte]

It doesn't matter either way because Skiles isn't the coach but with everything that's come out, not a damn person here is going to tell me that Skiles was wrong. I dont care if he resigned and if you ask me, it was the team that quit on him, I'm assuming most of you paid attention last season right? We have a bunch of pussies on this team that thus far cant handle the pressure and sure as hell cant handle a coach telling them to sit their sorry asses down when they're playing like crap.

[Gomagic44]

It doesn't matter either way because Skiles isn't the coach but with everything that's come out, not a damn person here is going to tell me that Skiles was wrong. I dont care if he resigned and if you ask me, it was the team that quit on him, I'm assuming most of you paid attention last season right? We have a bunch of pussies on this team that thus far cant handle the pressure and sure as hell cant handle a coach telling them to sit their sorry asses down when they're playing like crap.

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