ImageImageImageImage

ORL vs CLE game thread FEB 11 2008

Moderators: Def Swami, Howard Mass, ChosenSavior, UCFJayBird, UCF, Knightro

Happyfoosball
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,468
And1: 3
Joined: Oct 28, 2004

 

Post#461 » by Happyfoosball » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:26 am

magicfan217 wrote:Van Gundy has done a good job.

We are 11 games over .500 with the most road games played in the league. We have no starting point. We have no starting power forward. He's done a great job with what we've had. Sure I would love to and think that he could probably play JJ more, and maybe try and get the ball to dwight a little more, but he's done a nice job with the roster he's been given for the most part.


The team got better in the offseason. I stand by what I said last week, with almost any coach, mabye even Brian Hill *who I hate for the same reasons I hate Van Gundy as a fan* Orlando is still 11 games over .500. But it's not how a team starts it's how they finish, and Orlando has been getting worse all year. Remember they WERE 16-4. They haven't played well since then, not at all.
"I like our team" - Otis Smith
User avatar
MagicStarwipe
RealGM
Posts: 16,911
And1: 12,064
Joined: May 19, 2007
 

 

Post#462 » by MagicStarwipe » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:27 am

Dwight is good enough. I hate that argument. How come every time he get's the ball something good happens. Sure, he **** up from time to time but so do the perimeter players. The difference is if Dwight **** up he doesn't see the ball again for 10 posessions.
Image
RealGM Classics - Oladipo's "rude" celebration comes back to bite him: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1358414
User avatar
magicman123
RealGM
Posts: 26,171
And1: 722
Joined: Jan 14, 2007
Location: "THO"
   

 

Post#463 » by magicman123 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:27 am

Happyfoosball wrote:I'm gonna add this too, Dwight takes games and doesn't play good defense, but when Orlando plays good defense, it's usually 90 percent Dwight. He has a great games on that side of the court. Hedo and Lewis NEVER play defense. They both flat out suck at that end of the court. Which makes it so much harder for Dwight, yet nobody ever talks about that.


im praying we get a real starting pf at the deadline or in the offseason, lewis will not work there longterm
Happyfoosball
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,468
And1: 3
Joined: Oct 28, 2004

 

Post#464 » by Happyfoosball » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:28 am

Magicmehdi wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Turk is our best offensive player hands down, he does it all.

But the problem is Defense not offense.


And he's reaching his potiential this year. Dwights nowhere near as good as he's going to be. He needs the ball more, it's that simple. It comes down to a choice between the two, everyone takes Dwight and anyone who doesn't is a complete moron. Yeah Turk is better right now, but it's marginal at best, and if i'm going to go with one, it's gotta be Dwight.
"I like our team" - Otis Smith
magicfan4life05
RealGM
Posts: 23,617
And1: 198
Joined: Jun 29, 2005
Location: Welcome back the Comeback King !

 

Post#465 » by magicfan4life05 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:29 am

Image


"LOL, having trouble with your coach"
Dwight Howard on his FT struggles:

"I just think everybody needs to stop talking about it," Howard said. "There's more to life than free throws."
User avatar
magicfan217
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,274
And1: 1,075
Joined: Nov 04, 2004
Location: Still a JJ Redick fanboy
     

 

Post#466 » by magicfan217 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:30 am

Happyfoosball wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



The team got better in the offseason. I stand by what I said last week, with almost any coach, mabye even Brian Hill *who I hate for the same reasons I hate Van Gundy as a fan* Orlando is still 11 games over .500. But it's not how a team starts it's how they finish, and Orlando has been getting worse all year. Remember they WERE 16-4. They haven't played well since then, not at all.


didn't we just come off a stretch where we won 5 of 6 or 6 of 7?


A lot of us were saying that we were back at that point.....

we've lost 3 out of 4 to good teams.

Lakers
Cavs
Mavs


Were still sitting in a very good position with an easier schedule to finish out the year...
TooNice00
Banned User
Posts: 2,653
And1: 0
Joined: Dec 11, 2006

 

Post#467 » by TooNice00 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:31 am

howard basically takes the least amount of shots of the top 50 scorers in the nba. yeah he shoots FTs. but still the lowest FGA of the top 50 scorers. come on. that is just ridiculous. of course hedo is gonna look better on offense when he never sees double teams and dwight howard creates all his driving lanes and assists.
MagicFan3
Banned User
Posts: 8,982
And1: 20
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
Location: Superman!

 

Post#468 » by MagicFan3 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:31 am

Key reasons we lost:

1. Dooling was injured. IMO it's a whole new ballgame if we have Dooling guarding Hughes in the third quarter.

2. Dwight played with no intensity at all. I know he's frustrated, but you can't do that to your team when they count on you. When your coach has to bench you to send a message, I think it's safe to say there is an issue.

3. No energy across the board.

4. Larry Hughes... really, wtf?
MagiChamps
Junior
Posts: 264
And1: 1
Joined: Feb 05, 2008
Location: Orlando

 

Post#469 » by MagiChamps » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:33 am

TooNice00 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



uh no. no offense runs through anyone attempting only 10 shots a game. howard gets the ball more now than he did then and he still doesn't get the ball enough.


not that it matters but g. hill had less fga per game. i don't feel like fighting so ill leave it at that.
taruky1
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,569
And1: 28
Joined: Jul 29, 2004

 

Post#470 » by taruky1 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:35 am

Happyfoosball wrote:So what Dwights supposed to be okay with never getting the ball? Just be happy to play defense? There are so many problems with this team, should he play better defense? Absolutely, but it's hard for a player to maintain motivation when he hardly see's the ball, especially when he is his teams best player, leading scorer, rebouder, etc. SVG is a moron and I hope he's gone at the end of this year. I said what I thought about him earlier this week and got flamed. He was fighting with J.J, he wanted them to get rid of Ariza, and how he's fighting with Dwight. He's a freaking idiot.


How was he fighing with JJ? By not playing him? Hill didn't play him either last year. Ariza is really nothing special, get over it. And it's about time someone showed some cajones with Dwight. If he's taking it easy because he's not getting the ball enough, then I don't know what to say. Maybe the nice guy/hard worker thing is as much a facade as the devout Christian thing. There are plenty of reasons not to go to Dwight too often in the 4th. His lousy free throw shooting is one of them. Then there's the fact that he's a lousy and infrequent passer himself. Some of you love to site Dwight's scoring statistics as a sign that he should get the ball more often or the offense should run through him. But you forget that those statistics are largely due to offensive rebounds, running the break, etc. He wasn't scoring 20+ a game on post moves. He is no Duncan in the post, heck he's no Al Jefferson in the post. He is not yet the guy an offense should "run through", especially when he's a terrible passer.
taruky1
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,569
And1: 28
Joined: Jul 29, 2004

 

Post#471 » by taruky1 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:39 am

Happyfoosball wrote:I'm gonna add this too, Dwight takes games and doesn't play good defense, but when Orlando plays good defense, it's usually 90 percent Dwight. He has a great games on that side of the court. Hedo and Lewis NEVER play defense. They both flat out suck at that end of the court. Which makes it so much harder for Dwight, yet nobody ever talks about that.


You're talking out of your behind. Just because they aren't blocking shots or making spectacular plays doesn't mean they don't play defense. They may not be great defenders, but their defense is adequate and the effort is there. Dwight's defense on any big that steps out a little sucks. Most players have some weakness to their defensive game.
taruky1
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,569
And1: 28
Joined: Jul 29, 2004

 

Post#472 » by taruky1 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:43 am

TooNice00 wrote:howard basically takes the least amount of shots of the top 50 scorers in the nba. yeah he shoots FTs. but still the lowest FGA of the top 50 scorers. come on. that is just ridiculous. of course hedo is gonna look better on offense when he never sees double teams and dwight howard creates all his driving lanes and assists.


Oh really? Hedo gets a lot of his points and assists with Howard out as well, so a bit of an exaggeration.
User avatar
Last Guardian
RealGM
Posts: 27,432
And1: 4,410
Joined: Feb 22, 2004
Location: New Jersey
 

 

Post#473 » by Last Guardian » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:48 am

I understand both sides. Dwight deserves the ball more, simple as that. On the other hand, it can be quite difficult to get him the ball when he gets so much attention. In those cases, he is the leader he shouldn't get discouraged and try to have an effect on defense.
craig01
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 20,958
And1: 483
Joined: Dec 24, 2005
Location: orlando

 

Post#474 » by craig01 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:52 am

Howards claim to fame down the road will be that of a premier rebounder/defender that was team oriented.

He's apparently not mature enough to do so.


Give him time.
Basketball is driven by three principles:

1) Movement 2) Application of fundamentals 3) Predictability
TooNice00
Banned User
Posts: 2,653
And1: 0
Joined: Dec 11, 2006

 

Post#475 » by TooNice00 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:57 am

howard is the best offensive player on this team by far. he is the only player that ever draws any attention on offense. he scores the most points. shoots the most FTs. and is the most efficient scorer. nobody doubles hedo or rashard. they even let them shoot wide open threes from time to time and the big men are so worried about dwight they don't even come over to challenge their shots. i have no problem with hedo and rashard playing off dwight but can you not give howard 14 or 15 shots a game. i think he'd be quite happy with that. you don't have to run the offense through him every play. its those games where you see him with only 8 or 10 shots that piss him off. really is there a reason for him to drop like 10 or 15 point in one quarter and then ignored the rest of the game?
User avatar
MagicStarwipe
RealGM
Posts: 16,911
And1: 12,064
Joined: May 19, 2007
 

 

Post#476 » by MagicStarwipe » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:00 am

On the plus side, Dwight usually responds after being called out. Although he may be to frustrated to do so if Stan can't see his point of view.
Image
RealGM Classics - Oladipo's "rude" celebration comes back to bite him: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1358414
User avatar
FFBlitzace
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 35,726
And1: 8,086
Joined: Jan 14, 2004
Location: Beyond the Space, Beyond the Time
 

 

Post#477 » by FFBlitzace » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:00 am

I've been content with his number of shot attempts the entire time he's been with us. The success rate of a Dwight Howard post up is not as high as you might think it is reading this board. Very rarely does he face anything other than a double team. Sometimes it creates a shot off a double team. Sometimes. But just as often he holds it until the shot clock is running down and then we have to rush something. And when he actually takes the shot himself, which sometimes is a complete force against a double team, it's usually something wild. That step-into-the-lane hookshot he's got going on is ugly. Sometimes it bangs in, but usually it misses badly. When he drives baseline, it's usually an offensive foul or he steps out of bounds. If he actually passes those hurdles, he usually just gets wrapped up and sent to the line where he shoots under 60%.


I don't mean to sit here and just bash his offensive game, or Dwight in general. Anything this Magic team accomplishes over the next half decade will be because of him, and I'm depending on him just as much as anybody else. I'm just saying that I understand not giving him the ball every trip down at this point in his career. I just honestly don't think it would be better to do that every trip down than, say, letting Hedo attempt to create something every once in a while. Or letting Rashard try to score. Which is another thing. Rashard is averaging fewer shot attempts than he has in a long time. And this guy is probably the best pure scorer on our team, he has a legit argument for more shots if he wants to make an issue over it.

Dwight would get his points if he focused on the defense and rebounding. Like I said before, he averaged 12 a game his rookie year while pretty much never touching the ball. It was all putbacks and opportunity baskets. And Dwight's much better now than he was then. He could get 20 a game that way, very efficiently. And he would still draw attention. Even when he doesn't touch the ball he draws attention. You have to keep an eye on him, because if a weak defender is on him 1 on 1, he can just overpower him and dunk. So it's not like he has to take 20+ shots and score 30 a game to draw attention and clog the lane for shooters. And it's not like he would never see a postup. He'd still get the ball the same amount he gets it now, which is reasonable. If a team came along that didn't double, give him the ball and he'll score 30+ like he has done many times this year against teams that have decided to defend us differently than most teams. But it rarely happens when teams do that, and it's only going to get rarer (if that's a word).

And let's not forget how many points per game this team is averaging. We're one of the highest scoring teams in the league. Very rarely is the offense an issue for this team. Dwight's averaging over 20 points per game, most on the team, the team is averaging well over 100 per game, and he doesn't want to play defense because he's not happy with the offense? Obviously it's not that simple, but when you break it down like that, it hardly seems like this should even be an issue.

Sure, the entire team needs to pick it up defensively. But he's the anchor. He's the leader, the star. There are role players and there are stars. Stars exist because they do things role players don't. Role players are role players because they're not as good as stars. If he wants to be a role player, we'll void his max extension and give him Jameer-type dollars instead. But that's not happening, so play like the star you claim you want to be.
11/18/2017 - I have officially disowned Nikola Vucevic and branded him a loser.

- Skal Labissiere was my guy in 2016 pre-trade. Whoops, but I still believe.
- Malik Monk was my guy in 2017. Whoops(?)
- Mo Bamba was my guy in 2018. TBD.
User avatar
AdamTheGreek
RealGM
Posts: 41,588
And1: 2,663
Joined: Dec 30, 2006
Location: Orlando, FL. Thinking of Greece.
         

 

Post#478 » by AdamTheGreek » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:09 am

Not going to say much other than NO DEFENSE HAS CAUSED US TO LOSE THESE LAST 2 GAMES!

SVG finally sees what I've seen for the past few weeks, Dwight not caring about his defense.

I was happy to see Stan finally punish Dwight and stick in Cookie who at least tries.
Bluesky: @adampapageorgiou.bsky.social
Penny & Pops Podcast (Orlando Magic): https://soundcloud.com/137665379
User avatar
MagicStarwipe
RealGM
Posts: 16,911
And1: 12,064
Joined: May 19, 2007
 

 

Post#479 » by MagicStarwipe » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:14 am

Dwight after the game...

Orlando Magic Center Dwight Howard:
Image
RealGM Classics - Oladipo's "rude" celebration comes back to bite him: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1358414
MagicFan3
Banned User
Posts: 8,982
And1: 20
Joined: Jun 21, 2005
Location: Superman!

 

Post#480 » by MagicFan3 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:19 am

Dwight is saying all the right things... now he just needs to try actually doing it.

Return to Orlando Magic