Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory

[Bensational]

Are Fultz and Isaac untouchable for trade?

Dwight Howard will be a Free Agent this upcoming offseason. Is there a chance he could be back with Orlando? I know he burned the bridge when he asked for a trade and got traded. But that is in the past, should we welcome him to complete his legacy? Could be a solid contributor especially since Bamba might get into the trade talk this upcoming offseason

Are those two independent thoughts/questions?

I'd welcome Dwight back, now that he seems to have settled into his role in the twilight of his career. He probably needs to get a ring in LA first, for his sake. But Cliff coached Dwight in his last season in Charlotte (for as long as Cliff coached - he was out sick for most of it I think?), so the two of them must be able to get along.

Dwight coming back to put things right and finish out his career as a mentor to Isaac and Bamba would be a great narrative, if LeBron has helped Dwight get his head screwed on right. I don't think Vuc and Dwight would fit well on the same team, ego wise, or minutes wise.

Dwight/Bamba
Isaac/Aminu
X/Okeke
X/Ross
Fultz/MCW

with Vuc, Gordon and Fournier on the market to find players to fill in and improve the 2 and/or 3 spots.

Maybe one of them remains, like Gordon. Vuc + Fournier (and his expiring on a shrinking cap) for a SG upgrade should get us something solid. Or maybe it's Fournier, and Vuc + Gordon get us a SF?

I wouldn't say any of our veterans or Dwight are worth moving our talented young guys like Fultz and Isaac to put win now pieces around them. Unless it's Kawhi or Giannis on a long term deal.

Fultz + Isaac + Bamba + Okeke + 1sts for Giannis.

Vuc/Dwight
Giannis/Aminu
Gordon/X
Fournier/Ross
MCW/X

Get some ring chasing veterans to fill out PG and bench - can we contend?

[KillMonger]

curious.....any way we can get buddy hield?

Question:

Do you rate Hield as substantially better than Fournier?


Anyhow: your question has merit as the Kings and the Magic are both up and comers with unbalanced rosters. They have every reason to consider a dollar-for-dollar equal trade that balances respective rosters.

Any trade starts with Gordon and Hield. Orlando needs to absorb a bad contract and add its 2020 FRP. But if Fournier opts out, I think this could be quite interesting as a start to a 2020/21 roster decision.




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For me i would say not substantial but noticeably better if that makes any sense? The stats may not bear that out, i'm much more of an eye test guy and for me i think Buddy is bit more dynamic for me....he can get buckets in a few more ways than fournier for me, i've seen Hield create shots out of nothing far more consistently than i've seen Evan, as Evan is more effective when there is a pick involved moreso than him just getting the ball and is told to create from nothing. I feel they are closer than not but i feel like he's closer to the prototype of a scorer that i envision, i feel like he's in between Evan Fournier and Bradley Beal as a player.

For me i think one the changes HAS to be fournier, i thank him for what he's done here but i just rather have a change at that spot. I look at the landscape and i think who can we realistically target who is an upgrade(subjective) and i think Buddy is doable. It seems he really wants to be a starter and has been on record saying if he isn't a starter he would like to be elsewhere so why not? i would prefer bradley beal but thats not realistic....

drsd, thanks for the info

[drsd]

Are Fultz and Isaac untouchable for trade?

Dwight Howard will be a Free Agent this upcoming offseason. Is there a chance he could be back with Orlando? I know he burned the bridge when he asked for a trade and got traded. But that is in the past, should we welcome him to complete his legacy? Could be a solid contributor especially since Bamba might get into the trade talk this upcoming offseason

Are those two independent thoughts/questions?

I'd welcome Dwight back, now that he seems to have settled into his role in the twilight of his career. He probably needs to get a ring in LA first, for his sake. But Cliff coached Dwight in his last season in Charlotte (for as long as Cliff coached - he was out sick for most of it I think?), so the two of them must be able to get along.

Dwight coming back to put things right and finish out his career as a mentor to Isaac and Bamba would be a great narrative, if LeBron has helped Dwight get his head screwed on right. I don't think Vuc and Dwight would fit well on the same team, ego wise, or minutes wise.

Dwight/Bamba
Isaac/Aminu
X/Okeke
X/Ross
Fultz/MCW

with Vuc, Gordon and Fournier on the market to find players to fill in and improve the 2 and/or 3 spots.

Maybe one of them remains, like Gordon. Vuc + Fournier (and his expiring on a shrinking cap) for a SG upgrade should get us something solid. Or maybe it's Fournier, and Vuc + Gordon get us a SF?

I wouldn't say any of our veterans or Dwight are worth moving our talented young guys like Fultz and Isaac to put win now pieces around them. Unless it's Kawhi or Giannis on a long term deal.

Fultz + Isaac + Bamba + Okeke + 1sts for Giannis.

Vuc/Dwight
Giannis/Aminu
Gordon/X
Fournier/Ross
MCW/X

Get some ring chasing veterans to fill out PG and bench - can we contend?

Dwight Howard burnt himself with previous management; with current management, the question is positional gain.

Is Howard better than Vučević? No.

Is Howard better than Bamba? Yes.

Is Howard a player to build a team around at this stage of his career? No.


In conclusion: if Orlando trades Bamba (perhaps to upgrade the wing), then yes it is fine to consider Howard as Vučević's back-up for a year or two.

Look: Howard is a first ballet Hall of Famer. But right now he is a back-up Center. No more than that.


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[drsd]

For me i think one the changes HAS to be fournier, ....

I feel most here have accepted a roster that will include Fultz and Isaac. I also think most here "Don't care about the Center slot" and thus the Vučević-vs.-Bamba narrative is a moo point to me. Friend's reference to "It is a Cow's opinion". It's moo.


So: for Orlando to go from mediocre to good, the Wing must be the target. (I am agreeing with you).

Gordon and Fournier cannot be part of Orlando's future in that given discussion. But Fournier is probable to opt-in.
Moving forward, Orlando can thus consider both Fournier and Gordon for trades to solidify the wing. I really see no path forward for this team than those two issues as "fact".

Within two-year's time, the Magic is going to bring the bank truck for a FA, and Mr. Wonderful will probably be a wing.
Until then: the trade market it is.


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[jezzerinho]

I'm not convinced Fourier is the problem, per se. Our problem is we have no shot-creator / playmaker on the team. He has been thrust into that role despite not being good at it. Gordon most years of his career has tried to be a playmaker and has never convinced. He hasn't the handle, the moves or the nous to be that guy.

Despite having a dearth 9f shooting from the PG position, between Fourier, Ross and Vucevic, plus an improving Isaac & Bamba and a new shooter in Okeke, there's enough treys in there for it not to be a cause for panic.

On the other hand, we have nobody to self-create points with any reliability. We also have in Vucevic a focal point who can't be relied on when he's needed.

For me, finding an alpha focal point with playmaking ability by any means necessary should be the number one target.

The reported interest in DeRozan and Dinwiddie made sense to me in that regard.

[J the Drafter]

I don’t believe the path forward involves giving players up. The team would be better served, imo, by finding ways to add good players to the roster while keeping what they have. I wouldn’t mind a shooting guard that’s good enough to take Fournier’s starting role, or a power forward who can relieve AG and JI from covering that position. (Yes, I know AG and JI have more speed and PF. They have more size at the wing, and they don’t give up speed to do it.) Focusing on who we should get rid of is the wrong approach.

[j-ragg]

So we have 10 players under contract next year, assuming Evan and Ennis opt-in. What would you guys want to see for our players that are becoming free agents? Pretty much only DJ & MCW.

DJ signed a 4/28 MLE deal in 2016. I'm borderline shocked he lasted the whole deal. I don't think he's a minimum player but I also don't think he's a 7 million dollar backup.

MCW is on a minimum deal but put up some good advanced stats. CARMELO has his 5 year value for 40 million dollars somehow lol but I'd like him to stick if he is on the vet minimum, I wonder if he'll start thinking the grass is greener somewhere else? He's still young.

But I liked BJ Johnson/Vic Law/Gary Clark as well. Hope some or all of them get a shot next season especially Clark if we still have a need for shooting next year (we will).

[darthmerrick]

I'm not convinced Fourier is the problem, per se. Our problem is we have no shot-creator / playmaker on the team. He has been thrust into that role despite not being good at it. Gordon most years of his career has tried to be a playmaker and has never convinced. He hasn't the handle, the moves or the nous to be that guy.

Despite having a dearth 9f shooting from the PG position, between Fourier, Ross and Vucevic, plus an improving Isaac & Bamba and a new shooter in Okeke, there's enough treys in there for it not to be a cause for panic.

On the other hand, we have nobody to self-create points with any reliability. We also have in Vucevic a focal point who can't be relied on when he's needed.

For me, finding an alpha focal point with playmaking ability by any means necessary should be the number one target.

The reported interest in DeRozan and Dinwiddie made sense to me in that regard.

My problem with Fournier is the turnovers and the bad shots. He acts like he is the best player on a top 5 lottery bound team that can afford his bad plays rather then a team fighting to reach the 2nd round of the playoffs. I think he would be a great 6 or 7th man somewhere else. Same with Gordon...takes some bad shots and makes some bone headed plays that kill your runs. We may have a 5+ win total just dumping those guys. Add in Dinwiddie or DeRozan with Fultz, Issac and Vuc... we might win ten more games and be a 4th seed.

[Catledge]

I have been away for a while, so I apologize if this topic has already been thoroughly covered, but can somebody explain what makes Buddy Hield clearly better than Fournier? The stats look pretty similar to me. Is there something hidden deep in the advanced metrics that I'm missing? Is there something that I would see with the eye test if I stayed up late enough to watch west coast games?

[Xatticus]

I have been away for a while, so I apologize if this topic has already been thoroughly covered, but can somebody explain what makes Buddy Hield clearly better than Fournier? The stats look pretty similar to me. Is there something hidden deep in the advanced metrics that I'm missing? Is there something that I would see with the eye test if I stayed up late enough to watch west coast games?

They are similar, but Hield is pretty clearly better at what makes them useful. He has better movement on and off the ball and he is a better shooter. He finds more opportunities at the offensive end and he makes more of the opportunities that he does find. They are both overpaid though. Neither is a capable facilitator and their stat lines flatter to deceive. Both can get their own, but neither contributes meaningfully to a good offense. Both are going to make your defense worse. Contrast them with someone like Steve Nash, who only scored 14 ppg for his career, but essentially guaranteed that you were going to have an elite offense.

[basketballRob]

I think we'd be okay without Fournier or Heild, addition by subtraction. We just need a defender who makes shots around the league average.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[zaymon]

I'm not convinced Fourier is the problem, per se. Our problem is we have no shot-creator / playmaker on the team. He has been thrust into that role despite not being good at it. Gordon most years of his career has tried to be a playmaker and has never convinced. He hasn't the handle, the moves or the nous to be that guy.

Despite having a dearth 9f shooting from the PG position, between Fourier, Ross and Vucevic, plus an improving Isaac & Bamba and a new shooter in Okeke, there's enough treys in there for it not to be a cause for panic.

On the other hand, we have nobody to self-create points with any reliability. We also have in Vucevic a focal point who can't be relied on when he's needed.

For me, finding an alpha focal point with playmaking ability by any means necessary should be the number one target.

The reported interest in DeRozan and Dinwiddie made sense to me in that regard.

My problem with Fournier is the turnovers and the bad shots. He acts like he is the best player on a top 5 lottery bound team that can afford his bad plays rather then a team fighting to reach the 2nd round of the playoffs. I think he would be a great 6 or 7th man somewhere else. Same with Gordon...takes some bad shots and makes some bone headed plays that kill your runs. We may have a 5+ win total just dumping those guys. Add in Dinwiddie or DeRozan with Fultz, Issac and Vuc... we might win ten more games and be a 4th seed.

Fournier is not more turnover prone than Hield or Middleton, while having much worse offensive firepower to support him. He is no Klay Thompson, but he is not Lavine bad. Also how many bad shots he really takes, being by far the most efficient guy on our team, while having responsibility to create out of broken plays at the end of shot clock?

[pepe1991]

Both players are same age ( 40 -ish days apart) , both players across the board give you similar production.
One has player's option worth $17M, other just signed 4 years , $106M deal that didn't even kick-started yet.

Paying almost, at average $10M a year more fore Hield compared to Evan's contract is simply waste of money. Just like paying $35M for Khris MIddelton is fasted way to chase Giannis off small market team.

NBA teams before corona started to act like drunk billionaires and burned crazy amount of money into average role players with inflated stat lines due 3 ball and pace. (Harris, Horford, Middelton, Bledsoe just to name a few)

Did anybody but Brogdon actually lived up to his new contract this year ? I can't name anybody.

[drsd]

So we have 10 players under contract next year, assuming Evan and Ennis opt-in. What would you guys want to see for our players that are becoming free agents?



DJ signed a 4/28 MLE deal in 2016. I'm borderline shocked he lasted the whole deal. I don't think he's a minimum player but I also don't think he's a 7 million dollar backup.

MCW is on a minimum deal but put up some good advanced stats. CARMELO has his 5 year value for 40 million dollars somehow lol but I'd like him to stick if he is on the vet minimum, I wonder if he'll start thinking the grass is greener somewhere else? He's still young.

But I liked BJ Johnson/Vic Law/Gary Clark as well. Hope some or all of them get a shot next season especially Clark if we still have a need for shooting next year (we will).

[/quote]

It is 11 players (Okeke is nearly certain to be signed), with the assumption that the Magic is not picking up the team option on Frazier.

With the two opt-ins, the roster "today" is:


Fultz
Fournier/Ross
Isaac/Ennis/Okeke
Gordon/Aminu
Vučević/Bamba/Birch


Currently the Magic does have a mid-level FRP, and looking at the above roster, drafting a combo guard makes a lot of sense. So I will pencil in RJ Hampton. From there, I think Carter-Williams would be resigned over Augustin. And sure why not ink Clark.

This leads to :
Fultz/Carter-Williams/Hampton
Fournier/Ross
Isaac/Ennis/Okeke
Gordon/Aminu/Clark
Vučević/Bamba/Birch


I am not sure we fans should expect much more than that.


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[darthmerrick]

So we have 10 players under contract next year, assuming Evan and Ennis opt-in. What would you guys want to see for our players that are becoming free agents?



DJ signed a 4/28 MLE deal in 2016. I'm borderline shocked he lasted the whole deal. I don't think he's a minimum player but I also don't think he's a 7 million dollar backup.

MCW is on a minimum deal but put up some good advanced stats. CARMELO has his 5 year value for 40 million dollars somehow lol but I'd like him to stick if he is on the vet minimum, I wonder if he'll start thinking the grass is greener somewhere else? He's still young.

But I liked BJ Johnson/Vic Law/Gary Clark as well. Hope some or all of them get a shot next season especially Clark if we still have a need for shooting next year (we will).

It is 11 players (Okeke is nearly certain to be signed), with the assumption that the Magic is not picking up the team option on Frazier.

With the two opt-ins, the roster "today" is:


Fultz
Fournier/Ross
Isaac/Ennis/Okeke
Gordon/Aminu
Vučević/Bamba/Birch


Currently the Magic does have a mid-level FRP, and looking at the above roster, drafting a combo guard makes a lot of sense. So I will pencil in RJ Hampton. From there, I think Carter-Williams would be resigned over Augustin. And sure why not ink Clark.

This leads to :
Fultz/Carter-Williams/Hampton
Fournier/Ross
Isaac/Ennis/Okeke
Gordon/Aminu/Clark
Vučević/Bamba/Birch


I am not sure we fans should expect much more than that.


..[/quote]

Unless we make a big trade Vuc/Gordon or Fournier, I don't expect many changes in the off-season other then signing our draft picks. I wouldn't be surprised if we brought back DJ or will go for someone like Teague or Jackson to backup Fultz. Hopefully we add more guys that can hit the open three. Maybe that will be Chuma for us.

Other then that I'm guessing we bring back Clark for depth and will resign one of Carter-Williams/Iwundu.

[drsd]

... and will resign one of Carter-Williams/Iwundu.

Is there really a choice?


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[SOUL]

I need basketballllllllllllllll

[jezzerinho]

With a reduced cap and a tough landscape for the NBA, you can see teams that haven't properly contended deciding to hit the reset button and cash in their expensive vets for expirings and young potential.

Might make Gordon a more valuable chip as his deal is reasonable and declining, Fournier if he opts in will be a decent expiring deal. On the incoming side, you could see a team like SA dropping the trade demands on DeRozan and going for a reboot.

Vooch will be even more untradable, which sucks. Maybe time to offload Bamba to a team who's looking to build during the lean times.

[T-Cat]

A trade for Harrison Barnes for Vucevic straight up works on draft day! Unless we can trade Vucevic for an expiring deal like the Hornets for Batum.

[j-ragg]

I’m surprised the league hasn’t put out a target date or something. Could always change if needed, but this still feels so far away. Hopefully lots of details are just in the background.