2024-2025 Regular Season Game 60: Cleveland Cavaliers (47-10) at Orlando Magic (29-30) - 7:30pm

[tiderulz]

We lost to the best team in the East and possibly the league right now. While adding to our season injury count. Frankly, this is expected even if it disappointing.

I feel like AB missed another opportunity to do damage on both ends of the floor but I didn't get to listen into the whole game. Just looking at his stat line it reminds me of Paolo in his rookie year where anytime he went up against anyone good he would have a less then stellar game.

Beyond AB / Suggs / and if someone could send KCP a picture of himself 2 years ago our guard rotation just has zero offense. Even with injured Cole. Hope he gets better soon, because I don't think AB is consistent enough to find 14ppg in his absence yet.

seriously. the Knicks are 3rd in the East and lost to Cleveland by 37. Sometimes its matchups, sometimes its off nights. This Magic team still isnt designed correctly and missing their 3rd best player. One of their star players had asked for PG help and the front office whiffed.

[89Magicfan]

I'm fine with the team building so far. The cap sheet is flexible and we aren't locked into a terrible core. The future is still bright. They can re-tool the bench and 4th/5th starters without any problems

The future will always be in the future with Weltman. Last two seasons he should be making the necessary moves to make/keep the team competitive. He has not. He has failed.

I stand by player development as the growth engine for a young team. That's the right approach. He protected Franz, Suggs, and Paolo from blockers and allowed them to develop as offensive and defensive leaders. He's opted for continuity and low usage/high character veterans to support the cores development.

Injuries set the team back, not mismanagement.

You don’t develop players by putting them into failing situations. That’s how you develop bad habits. Never in time have good players developed in such an environment.

Injuries is not an excuse for inaction from management.

[eyriq]

The future will always be in the future with Weltman. Last two seasons he should be making the necessary moves to make/keep the team competitive. He has not. He has failed.

I stand by player development as the growth engine for a young team. That's the right approach. He protected Franz, Suggs, and Paolo from blockers and allowed them to develop as offensive and defensive leaders. He's opted for continuity and low usage/high character veterans to support the cores development.

Injuries set the team back, not mismanagement.

You don’t develop players by putting them into failing situations.

+12, +13 win seasons, max contract for Franz, third option contract for Suggs, coming max for Paolo, 5th seed, top 5 defense. Who is failing?

[MartinsIzAfraud]

I'm fine with the team building so far. The cap sheet is flexible and we aren't locked into a terrible core. The future is still bright. They can re-tool the bench and 4th/5th starters without any problems

The future will always be in the future with Weltman. Last two seasons he should be making the necessary moves to make/keep the team competitive. He has not. He has failed.

I stand by player development as the growth engine for a young team. That's the right approach. He protected Franz, Suggs, and Paolo from blockers and allowed them to develop as offensive and defensive leaders. He's opted for continuity and low usage/high character veterans to support the cores development.

Injuries set the team back, not mismanagement.

so absolute hopium that progress is linear even though this year has shown that is as far from true as possible.

[89Magicfan]

I stand by player development as the growth engine for a young team. That's the right approach. He protected Franz, Suggs, and Paolo from blockers and allowed them to develop as offensive and defensive leaders. He's opted for continuity and low usage/high character veterans to support the cores development.

Injuries set the team back, not mismanagement.

You don’t develop players by putting them into failing situations.

+12, +13 win seasons, max contract for Franz, third option contract for Suggs, coming max for Paolo, 5th seed, top 5 defense. Who is failing?

Signing max contracts isn’t development.

Look at the offense trajectory for last 5-8 years. We are currently 7th seed and I believe that will continue to slide. Our defense has been alright but even that has slipped.

[eyriq]

The future will always be in the future with Weltman. Last two seasons he should be making the necessary moves to make/keep the team competitive. He has not. He has failed.

I stand by player development as the growth engine for a young team. That's the right approach. He protected Franz, Suggs, and Paolo from blockers and allowed them to develop as offensive and defensive leaders. He's opted for continuity and low usage/high character veterans to support the cores development.

Injuries set the team back, not mismanagement.

so absolute hopium that progress is linear even though this year has shown that is as far from true as possible.

I think it's common sense that young players get better

[yoyojw17]

I stand by player development as the growth engine for a young team. That's the right approach. He protected Franz, Suggs, and Paolo from blockers and allowed them to develop as offensive and defensive leaders. He's opted for continuity and low usage/high character veterans to support the cores development.

Injuries set the team back, not mismanagement.

You don’t develop players by putting them into failing situations.

+12, +13 win seasons, max contract for Franz, third option contract for Suggs, coming max for Paolo, 5th seed, top 5 defense. Who is failing?

Failing situation .... we are nearly at the end of the season.... our desired starting lineup has barely played together (due to longterm timely injuries to many of our players and especially core player)..... identity development has not been established.....

If that was the story about a team... i would not expect them to be only 2 games below .500 in the playoff picture. Failure... i wouldn't say that... a disappointing season... i'm pretty sure we can all agree on it. and most of the frustration is because for many... they feel as though we can be better "IF xyz" and those xyz seems attainable.

[Bergmaniac]

I don't think it's a good development strategy to give your young players so little help on offense, especially when the tanking is over and you are trying to win games. They are developing bad habits and getting frustrated. They can still get plenty of shots if we had a competent PG and a spacing which belongs to the current decade. They won't get their development "blocked" if we sign a Mike Conley or Ingles type player, or even someone like Simons, there are plenty of shots to go around.

It's not a coincidence that the one time the offense looked good in Weltman's period in charge is when Ingles still had some juice left in his legs and was doing a lot of the playmaking in his minutes on the court.

[JoshuaPotter]

I stand by player development as the growth engine for a young team. That's the right approach. He protected Franz, Suggs, and Paolo from blockers and allowed them to develop as offensive and defensive leaders. He's opted for continuity and low usage/high character veterans to support the cores development.

Injuries set the team back, not mismanagement.

so absolute hopium that progress is linear even though this year has shown that is as far from true as possible.

I think it's common sense that young players get better

Ok, no, it isn't hopium. I agree its common sense. We have been bit hard by the injury bug this season. Even if we said "two things can be true at the same time" also isn't a far cry. I really agree on the mismanagement parts. I also really want people to understand that there is plenty of room for optimism. Or let me re-explain it. The kinda PG I think a lot of people want either isn't available or doesn't exist yet. No matter how many trades offers we dream up.

The other side of it, is someone has offered something that someone here whom doesn't like our mismanaged efforts would have gobbled up.

I see it as sorta this. What little bit of targeting we have done just has not been at the asking price desired. Hey maybe it is true that we aren't the Lakers and somehow can convince someone that possibly the best player in the world has too much baggage. If someone asked for Black in exchange for a lot of players i'd balk too because Blacks upper tier looks really good insomuch that we possibly lose that trade a lot in 2 years thus fueling the "we mismanage".

I like a couple of the offers proposed here. I'd like to "dream" that if we presented those offers or if they were presented to us we would take it. At the same time, we do not know the reputation of individual players like an NBA team would. I can only say these facts for now.

I think Paolo actually cares about winning in a league where a majority of players are cashing a paycheck. Some of them might even be on this team right now.

I think Franz cares.
I think Suggs cares.
Black also seems to care.

So we have 4 guys mentioned that want to play for 48 minutes / 82+ games a season. How do we build or even potentially trade for the next pieces that are trying to accomplish more then their next contract $ / % increase.

[89Magicfan]

You don’t develop players by putting them into failing situations.

+12, +13 win seasons, max contract for Franz, third option contract for Suggs, coming max for Paolo, 5th seed, top 5 defense. Who is failing?

Failing situation .... we are nearly at the end of the season.... our desired starting lineup has barely played together (due to longterm timely injuries to many of our players and especially core player)..... identity development has not been established.....

If that was the story about a team... i would not expect them to be only 2 games below .500 in the playoff picture. Failure... i wouldn't say that... a disappointing season... i'm pretty sure we can all agree on it. and most of the frustration is because for many... they feel as though we can be better "IF xyz" and those xyz seems attainable.

Identity has been established and has been for quite some tine. Solid defensively when healthy worse team in the league offensively and no answer to it for multiple seasons now. That’s a failure.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

so absolute hopium that progress is linear even though this year has shown that is as far from true as possible.

I think it's common sense that young players get better

Ok, no, it isn't hopium. I agree its common sense. We have been bit hard by the injury bug this season. Even if we said "two things can be true at the same time" also isn't a far cry. I really agree on the mismanagement parts. I also really want people to understand that there is plenty of room for optimism. Or let me re-explain it. The kinda PG I think a lot of people want either isn't available or doesn't exist yet. No matter how many trades offers we dream up.

The other side of it, is someone has offered something that someone here whom doesn't like our mismanaged efforts would have gobbled up.

I see it as sorta this. What little bit of targeting we have done just has not been at the asking price desired. Hey maybe it is true that we aren't the Lakers and somehow can convince someone that possibly the best player in the world has too much baggage. If someone asked for Black in exchange for a lot of players i'd balk too because Blacks upper tier looks really good insomuch that we possibly lose that trade a lot in 2 years thus fueling the "we mismanage".

I like a couple of the offers proposed here. I'd like to "dream" that if we presented those offers or if they were presented to us we would take it. At the same time, we do not know the reputation of individual players like an NBA team would. I can only say these facts for now.

I think Paolo actually cares about winning in a league where a majority of players are cashing a paycheck. Some of them might even be on this team right now.

I think Franz cares.
I think Suggs cares.
Black also seems to care.

So we have 4 guys mentioned that want to play for 48 minutes / 82+ games a season. How do we build or even potentially trade for the next pieces that are trying to accomplish more then their next contract $ / % increase.

so I can 1000% agree on the last point, but it was never a question on those 4. That's 4 of 10 rotational players when this FO has had how long to try and mix/match to see what works. Instead, they've doubled down on mediocrity and 1 way injury prone players.

Franz/Paolo/Suggs are the 3 players we can feel good about going forward. Outside of those 3 our roster is bad and does not fit with the 3 mentioned earlier. AB is the only other one that you can say, yeah he has shown flashes and I can see him working out.


Yes Franz & Paolo will get better but they can't carry an offense when the rest of the roster is dog water. We got embarrassed by 40 at home and our bench scored 13 points with 3 others in the starting lineup failing to cross 10 points.

TLDR- Fans are sick and tired of this wait for the youth to grow outside of Paolo/Franz/Suggs/AB. Go get them some help and stop wasting years when its obvious Jett, Cole, Gary, Gary 2.0 and the rest of the bunch don't fit.

[bigshawn]

Paolo goes into hero ball way too much. He shoots the moving fading corner shots with little chance to go in. Franz does at times too but not with the inefficiency of Paolo. The difference is Franz plays GREAT defense and is a better player at this point than Paolo.

If we could trade Paolo with a package to the team who gets the number 1 pick for Cooper Flagg, I would do it without hesitation.

[Last Guardian]

I'm a bit on both sides of the fence. There is definitely some room for internal growth, but also a bit of a shakeup can also be needed.

God I hate thinking it but Paolo just doesn't really fit the mold of the rest of the team. If our intention is to be a legendary defensive team...he just doesn't fit. And his offense isn't really helping...in fact the team did well without him.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Read on Twitter

When you surround your star players with **** they decide to go hero mode vs making the right plays all the time.

[RichCollab]

It’s time for multiple changes even if injuries accelerated them. Most would say it’s taken way too long.

Cavs are having a historic season and we are still trying to recover from a couple of injury blows.

Pistons add the right vets and seem to have changed things in the positive.

We need to change up our vets and maybe fit of our younger players.

We need to increase the offensive schemes with additional or replacement staff.

[three3d]

Portland’s top 10 pick + Simons + Advija for Paolo + WCJ + two 1st round picks this year + future 1st round pick. Heck they can even take Cole if they’d like him off the bench.

[VFX]

I stand by player development as the growth engine for a young team. That's the right approach. He protected Franz, Suggs, and Paolo from blockers and allowed them to develop as offensive and defensive leaders. He's opted for continuity and low usage/high character veterans to support the cores development.

Injuries set the team back, not mismanagement.

so absolute hopium that progress is linear even though this year has shown that is as far from true as possible.

I think it's common sense that young players get better

This has been explained maybe a hundred times on this forum for the last decade plus.

Players get better at things they are already proficient at doing. Exceptional talents like Franz become elite at what they already do. Suggs will sharpen his already elite defensive ability with experience.

It is anomalous that players develop skillsets they simply have not shown AT ALL 2-3 seasons in the league with significant playing time. Paolo can become an average defender. He will never be great. AB can become average at running an offense in his prime. He will never be elite, possibly never a starting quality table setter. Get it?

Young players get slightly better over time with experience. AB doesn’t become SGA simply because he gets older and put on nba miles. Thats an anomaly you are talking about at a .0001% chance of happening.

The failures of this team aren’t solved with time. They are solved with proper construction people have been screaming about for going on 3 seasons now. They are solved with coaching that isn’t sub AAU circuit IQ on offense.

People are just now seeing this smack them in the face because they were incapable of grasping it at the time. Like I argue here with mods for 2+ seasons and I’m told I’m chicken little. What now? Well it’s too late so those conversations won’t materialize again and I hate that I was right. Too bad I guess.

People need to see terrible results for some reason before they start drawing obvious conclusions because skillsets exist and progression isn’t ultimately linear. These things aren’t hard to see when you simply look at contracts handed out and skillsets matching a functioning offense.

[OrlandoDream]

Read on Twitter

When you surround your star players with **** they decide to go hero mode vs making the right plays all the time.

Its Gary effin Harris. Paolo knows he is trash and has no trust in him. If that was Suggs, it would be different story. He has no trust for Gary and quickly losing KCP. I cant wait until both those pieces of garbage are off this team.

[89Magicfan]

Portland’s top 10 pick + Simons + Advija for Paolo + WCJ + two 1st round picks this year + future 1st round pick. Heck they can even take Cole if they’d like him off the bench.

No thanks

[89Magicfan]

I'm a bit on both sides of the fence. There is definitely some room for internal growth, but also a bit of a shakeup can also be needed.

God I hate thinking it but Paolo just doesn't really fit the mold of the rest of the team. If our intention is to be a legendary defensive team...he just doesn't fit. And his offense isn't really helping...in fact the team did well without him.

He fits it’s just the personnel that Weltman has put around him that doesn’t fit.