2024-2025 Regular Season Game 60: Cleveland Cavaliers (47-10) at Orlando Magic (29-30) - 7:30pm

[OrlandoNed]

The Franz fanboys who are advocating trading Paolo need to put down the crack pipe and do something productive with their time than spew asinine takes online.

Last I checked, in last seasons playoffs in Game 7 only one of our two stars rose to the occasion when the lights were the brightest. Guess which one it wasn't. I'll give you a hint, it wasn't the guy who went 1-15 from the field.

How about instead of playing favorites, we push for the FO to fix the ACTUAL problem by replacing all the dead weight on the roster with people who can actually contribute to a functioning offense.

[three3d]

Portland’s top 10 pick + Simons + Advija for Paolo + WCJ + two 1st round picks this year + future 1st round pick. Heck they can even take Cole if they’d like him off the bench.

No thanks

Paolo’s max contract will be the equivalent of an iceberg meeting the Titanic

[three3d]

The Franz fanboys who are advocating trading Paolo need to put down the crack pipe and do something productive with their time than spew asinine takes online.

Last I checked, in last seasons playoffs in Game 7 only one of our two stars rose to the occasion when the lights were the brightest. Guess which one it wasn't. I'll give you a hint, it wasn't the guy who went 1-15 from the field.

How about instead of playing favorites, we push for the FO to fix the ACTUAL problem by replacing all the dead weight on the roster with people who can actually contribute to a functioning offense.

Last I checked it was Franz carrying the team and leading them to wins WITHOUT Paolo. Last I checked advanced metrics CLEARLY pointed towards Franz being the more important player towards success. Last I checked for three seasons now Paolo’s advanced stats pointed towards him being a low efficiency player. Last I checked Franz has no issue at all finishing around the basket and being the better defensive player.

[Black and Blue]

so absolute hopium that progress is linear even though this year has shown that is as far from true as possible.

I think it's common sense that young players get better

This has been explained maybe a hundred times on this forum for the last decade plus.

Players get better at things they are already proficient at doing. Exceptional talents like Franz become elite at what they already do. Suggs will sharpen his already elite defensive ability with experience.

It is anomalous that players develop skillsets they simply have not shown AT ALL 2-3 seasons in the league with significant playing time. Paolo can become an average defender. He will never be great. AB can become average at running an offense in his prime. He will never be elite, possibly never a starting quality table setter. Get it?

Young players get slightly better over time with experience. AB doesn’t become SGA simply because he gets older and put on nba miles. Thats an anomaly you are talking about at a .0001% chance of happening.

The failures of this team aren’t solved with time. They are solved with proper construction people have been screaming about for going on 3 seasons now. They are solved with coaching that isn’t sub AAU circuit IQ on offense.

People are just now seeing this smack them in the face because they were incapable of grasping it at the time. Like I argue here with mods for 2+ seasons and I’m told I’m chicken little. What now? Well it’s too late so those conversations won’t materialize again and I hate that I was right. Too bad I guess.

People need to see terrible results for some reason before they start drawing obvious conclusions because skillsets exist and progression isn’t ultimately linear. These things aren’t hard to see when you simply look at contracts handed out and skillsets matching a functioning offense.

VFX, while I agree that you are usually a bit "glass half empty", I agree 100% with everything you are saying here.

My biggest concerns with this front office are three fold:

1) More than most GMs, this front office assumes that the players they have are better than going with an unknown. As if making any move in itself is risky and could ruin years and years of beautiful, meticulous planning. This is a horrible way to go through life, as adaptation and a willingness to act when opportunity arises is what separates average joes from the greats.

2) It's quite obvious that whatever conversations are happening within the league - whether it be the group of former agents running the Knicks, or the Lakers-Mavs private deals, or Riley and his mafia-like web of power players - Weltman is no where near the action. This is a bigger problem than anyone is talking about. And to save face, Weltman is positioning them as content with where they are.

3) This front office has four beliefs that they construct the roster around -
-Length is the most important thing in the world
-Defense wins championships still despite it being an overwhelmingly offensive-geared league
-Point guards are pointless and can be replaced by point-forwards
-Shooting is something that can be taught/developed.

The latter two have blown up in their face spectacularly, not just during this injury-riddled season but for years and years now.

I'm joining you VFX in feeling dubious this can be turned around because all of those points I made above are entrenched in this front office's identity. They aren't about which players are available, or what their own players or fans want, they are structural frameworks that clash with a lot of what is successful in the league. Even worse, this front office thinks because it worked once with the Bucks, it will work again. Hopefully they aren't foolish enough to die on that hill.

[Last Guardian]

I'm a bit on both sides of the fence. There is definitely some room for internal growth, but also a bit of a shakeup can also be needed.

God I hate thinking it but Paolo just doesn't really fit the mold of the rest of the team. If our intention is to be a legendary defensive team...he just doesn't fit. And his offense isn't really helping...in fact the team did well without him.

He fits it’s just the personnel that Weltman has put around him that doesn’t fit.

But they did just fine without him

[zaymon]

I'm a bit on both sides of the fence. There is definitely some room for internal growth, but also a bit of a shakeup can also be needed.

God I hate thinking it but Paolo just doesn't really fit the mold of the rest of the team. If our intention is to be a legendary defensive team...he just doesn't fit. And his offense isn't really helping...in fact the team did well without him.

I started to feel this way a year ago, now i am certain. To makes things worse, we wont be able to afford good enough PG with Franz, Paolo and Suggs contracts and even if we manage to bring good but not luxury PG than Paolo acts as overpaid screener and Franz as stationary shooter ? I dont like the team concept at all. Paolo doesnt fit the motion offense scheme.

[eyriq]

This has been explained maybe a hundred times on this forum for the last decade plus.

Players get better at things they are already proficient at doing. Exceptional talents like Franz become elite at what they already do. Suggs will sharpen his already elite defensive ability with experience.

It is anomalous that players develop skillsets they simply have not shown AT ALL 2-3 seasons in the league with significant playing time. Paolo can become an average defender. He will never be great. AB can become average at running an offense in his prime. He will never be elite, possibly never a starting quality table setter. Get it?

Young players get slightly better over time with experience. AB doesn’t become SGA simply because he gets older and put on nba miles. Thats an anomaly you are talking about at a .0001% chance of happening.

The failures of this team aren’t solved with time. They are solved with proper construction people have been screaming about for going on 3 seasons now. They are solved with coaching that isn’t sub AAU circuit IQ on offense.

People are just now seeing this smack them in the face because they were incapable of grasping it at the time. Like I argue here with mods for 2+ seasons and I’m told I’m chicken little. What now? Well it’s too late so those conversations won’t materialize again and I hate that I was right. Too bad I guess.

People need to see terrible results for some reason before they start drawing obvious conclusions because skillsets exist and progression isn’t ultimately linear. These things aren’t hard to see when you simply look at contracts handed out and skillsets matching a functioning offense.

Paolo has the skill set of a first option, as does Franz. Both will improve as they enter their primes. Both are years away from the primes. Both will see drastic improvements in performance from now till their prime as a result. Their fit is terrific, they've led the team in back-to-back +12 & +13 win seasons. This season has stalled out due to injuries.

That's a fair and obvious assessment and has been explained maybe a hundred times on this forum.

If you have a build around two guys that can both be first options and All Star first options at that in their primes that's a good damn build.

Suggs and AB are the other main players being developed. Both are in the same archetype IMO, but still have different strengths and weaknesses. Suggs is higher usage and probably a more aggressive scorer, AB is a better playmaker and probably a more efficient scorer. Suggs development is probably getting derailed by injuries, AB is now ahead of where Suggs was developmentally at the same age.

The supporting cast needs a complete overhaul, you'll get no argument from me there. I've consistently said that this doesn't matter though right now we're focused on developing our four main players.

[89Magicfan]

Portland’s top 10 pick + Simons + Advija for Paolo + WCJ + two 1st round picks this year + future 1st round pick. Heck they can even take Cole if they’d like him off the bench.

No thanks

Paolo’s max contract will be the equivalent of an iceberg meeting the Titanic

Paolo’s? Not Suggs who is being considered to be injury prone and can not stay healthy an entire season? Not Franz who last year struggled with many even saying maybe we should trade him? Now it’s Paolo the one type of guy guy who this entire board was hoping/praying to land for almost a decade?

You want to trade that for role players? No thanks.
It’s shortsighted and bball suicide to trade a player like Paolo in 2 and a half seasons for the reasons you stated after what he’s accomplished in his short career and to do so when we know the entire roster is ass.

[zaymon]

This has been explained maybe a hundred times on this forum for the last decade plus.

Players get better at things they are already proficient at doing. Exceptional talents like Franz become elite at what they already do. Suggs will sharpen his already elite defensive ability with experience.

It is anomalous that players develop skillsets they simply have not shown AT ALL 2-3 seasons in the league with significant playing time. Paolo can become an average defender. He will never be great. AB can become average at running an offense in his prime. He will never be elite, possibly never a starting quality table setter. Get it?

Young players get slightly better over time with experience. AB doesn’t become SGA simply because he gets older and put on nba miles. Thats an anomaly you are talking about at a .0001% chance of happening.

The failures of this team aren’t solved with time. They are solved with proper construction people have been screaming about for going on 3 seasons now. They are solved with coaching that isn’t sub AAU circuit IQ on offense.

People are just now seeing this smack them in the face because they were incapable of grasping it at the time. Like I argue here with mods for 2+ seasons and I’m told I’m chicken little. What now? Well it’s too late so those conversations won’t materialize again and I hate that I was right. Too bad I guess.

People need to see terrible results for some reason before they start drawing obvious conclusions because skillsets exist and progression isn’t ultimately linear. These things aren’t hard to see when you simply look at contracts handed out and skillsets matching a functioning offense.

Paolo has the skill set of a first option, as does Franz. Both will improve as they enter their primes. Both are years away from the primes. Both will see drastic improvements in performance from now till their prime as a result. Their fit is terrific, they've led the team in back-to-back +12 & +13 win seasons. This season has stalled out due to injuries.

That's a fair and obvious assessment and has been explained maybe a hundred times on this forum.

If you have a build around two guys that can both be first options and All Star first options at that in their primes that's a good damn build.

Suggs and AB are the other main players being developed. Both are in the same archetype IMO, but still have different strengths and weaknesses. Suggs is higher usage and probably a more aggressive scorer, AB is a better playmaker and probably a more efficient scorer. Suggs development is probably getting derailed by injuries, AB is now ahead of where Suggs was developmentally at the same age.

The supporting cast needs a complete overhaul, you'll get no argument from me there. I've consistently said that this doesn't matter though right now we're focused on developing our four main players.

Problem is Paolo doesnt have the skill set of a first option. Not even second option. He is oversized third option. If you treat him like first or second you have offensive offense. Thats while he is surrounded with shooters. Harris, KCP, Carter, Suggs, Cole in some way. He just cant run offense, no rhytm for other players.

[89Magicfan]

This has been explained maybe a hundred times on this forum for the last decade plus.

Players get better at things they are already proficient at doing. Exceptional talents like Franz become elite at what they already do. Suggs will sharpen his already elite defensive ability with experience.

It is anomalous that players develop skillsets they simply have not shown AT ALL 2-3 seasons in the league with significant playing time. Paolo can become an average defender. He will never be great. AB can become average at running an offense in his prime. He will never be elite, possibly never a starting quality table setter. Get it?

Young players get slightly better over time with experience. AB doesn’t become SGA simply because he gets older and put on nba miles. Thats an anomaly you are talking about at a .0001% chance of happening.

The failures of this team aren’t solved with time. They are solved with proper construction people have been screaming about for going on 3 seasons now. They are solved with coaching that isn’t sub AAU circuit IQ on offense.

People are just now seeing this smack them in the face because they were incapable of grasping it at the time. Like I argue here with mods for 2+ seasons and I’m told I’m chicken little. What now? Well it’s too late so those conversations won’t materialize again and I hate that I was right. Too bad I guess.

People need to see terrible results for some reason before they start drawing obvious conclusions because skillsets exist and progression isn’t ultimately linear. These things aren’t hard to see when you simply look at contracts handed out and skillsets matching a functioning offense.

Paolo has the skill set of a first option, as does Franz. Both will improve as they enter their primes. Both are years away from the primes. Both will see drastic improvements in performance from now till their prime as a result. Their fit is terrific, they've led the team in back-to-back +12 & +13 win seasons. This season has stalled out due to injuries.

That's a fair and obvious assessment and has been explained maybe a hundred times on this forum.

If you have a build around two guys that can both be first options and All Star first options at that in their primes that's a good damn build.

Suggs and AB are the other main players being developed. Both are in the same archetype IMO, but still have different strengths and weaknesses. Suggs is higher usage and probably a more aggressive scorer, AB is a better playmaker and probably a more efficient scorer. Suggs development is probably getting derailed by injuries, AB is now ahead of where Suggs was developmentally at the same age.

The supporting cast needs a complete overhaul, you'll get no argument from me there. I've consistently said that this doesn't matter though right now we're focused on developing our four main players.

Problem is Paolo doesnt have the skill set of a first option. Not even second option. He is oversized third option. If you treat him like first or second you have offensive offense. Thats while he is surrounded with shooters. Harris, KCP, Carter, Suggs, Cole in some way. He just cant run offense, no rhytm for other players.

Where have you been the last 2 seasons?

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Read on Twitter

[89Magicfan]

I’m just gonna leave this here so yall can really stare at the problem, what has BEEN the problem and tattoo it in some of y’all’s brains. This whole trade Paolo talk is nuts.

The Magic have generated 827 “open” 3P attempts this season, 16th in the league. They’ve shot 30.2% on such shots, 29th.

They’ve generated 1,157 “wide open” 3P attempts this season, 9th in the league. They’ve shot 32.3% on such shots, 30th.”

[89Magicfan]

Read on Twitter

Paolo’s fault (smdh) not the guy who constructed the team that has lead to this.

[OrlandoNed]

Read on Twitter

Let's not forget, we aren't scheming guys open, teams are leaving guys open.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Read on Twitter

Let's not forget, we aren't scheming guys open, teams are leaving guys open.

it's a mix of both. We're getting good looks with solid movement but depending on who is initiating they'd rather double or trap and leave a guy open. Basically if Franz/Paolo are running they're ok leaving Gary and co wide open.

[89Magicfan]

Read on Twitter

Let's not forget, we aren't scheming guys open, teams are leaving guys open.

Pfft trade Paolo. Roster is fine just needs to get healthy. Green font

[89Magicfan]

Read on Twitter

Let's not forget, we aren't scheming guys open, teams are leaving guys open.

it's a mix of both. We're getting good looks with solid movement but depending on who is initiating they'd rather double or trap and leave a guy open. Basically if Franz/Paolo are running they're ok leaving Gary and co wide open.

Oh but don’t you worry because we are developing Paolo/Franz so they can fix that for us while they’re being doubled more than anyone else in the league…Continuity…Healthy…Team…Friendship and family…Thumbs up let’s go 2030…Welp maybe 2040…Idk let’s evaluate…zzzzzz deadline?zzzzz….

[Fortune Teller]

Read on Twitter

To me this supports the argument that it's not Mosley's fault, at least it's certainly not all his fault. They're middle of the league in getting open threes, top-10 in getting wide-open threes, but bottom of the league in makes. This is clear from watching the games. They're getting the looks. But Jeff's obsession with defense and length without bball skills has predictably resulted in a roster of brick-layers.

[Redwood]

The Franz fanboys who are advocating trading Paolo need to put down the crack pipe and do something productive with their time than spew asinine takes online.

Last I checked, in last seasons playoffs in Game 7 only one of our two stars rose to the occasion when the lights were the brightest. Guess which one it wasn't. I'll give you a hint, it wasn't the guy who went 1-15 from the field.

How about instead of playing favorites, we push for the FO to fix the ACTUAL problem by replacing all the dead weight on the roster with people who can actually contribute to a functioning offense.

This entire post is based on one game.

Franz is objectively the better overall player.

[eyriq]

Let's not forget, we aren't scheming guys open, teams are leaving guys open.

it's a mix of both. We're getting good looks with solid movement but depending on who is initiating they'd rather double or trap and leave a guy open. Basically if Franz/Paolo are running they're ok leaving Gary and co wide open.

Oh but don’t you worry because we are developing Paolo/Franz so they can fix that for us while they’re being doubled more than anyone else in the league…Continuity…Healthy…Team…Friendship and family…Thumbs up let’s go 2030…Welp maybe 2040…Idk let’s evaluate…zzzzzz deadline?zzzzz….

Fully healthy our core eight are:

Guards: Suggs, KCP, AB
Forwards: Franz, Paolo, JI
Bigs: WCJ, Goga

A good start would be replacing KCP, WCJ, and JI.

I think the 9-10 guys are Moritz and Cole. Replace them both.

Jett and TDS are trying to earn a seat at the table.

Harris is fringe and has good On-Off numbers, keep him on the green goblins