The case for Jonathan Isaac

[tiderulz]

he was top-10 in scoring for SG's last year, after having to shoulder the load as the primary scorer when he shouldnt have been.

well, the trend continues of having a losing season, so lets tear into our own players

Fournier was really bad this past year. I don't hate the guy, but he was just not good in any respect.

His defense, which has never been good, was absolutely terrible and his overall offensive performance took a major step backwards.

Since he's never going to be a good defender, Fournier MUST be a strong offensive player to make up for it. If he can bounce back to his form under Skiles, then ok. If he doesn't, then he's gotta go.

It's hard to say he definitely will bounce back, considering 2015-16 looks like the outlier compared to the other four years of his career.

you're right, lets get rid of all the players we have that arent all-stars. i mean, thats just Fournier right? everyone else on the team a star and get no criticism. not our non-shooting PG, our PF that is still a project 3 years in, our new coin toss Ross. go ahead, like Vuc, Harris, Dipo, etc, lets just throw away players that other teams would love. Lets just give him to the Spurs for a 2025 2nd round pick

[OrlandoDream]

@stevekylerNBA: Continue to hear Jonathan Isaac is their guy at 4, unless someone falls.

Read on Twitter

It's Kyker who has as much validity as Magical. However; this I can see happening. Isaac and Booker just makes since. That means that Tatum would be all for the taking at 6 or even better. Do I dare dream Josh Jackson will fall to the 6? That would be amazing

Its possible. If Ainge really sees Pierce in Tatum (as reported), if Suns are super high on Isaac, and Kings stick to Fox, Jackson is right there for us.

Assuming LA takes Ball, we get leftover of the 3 SFs vs. DSJ. I think DS is a dark horse for Bos.

I don't think BOS would pick DSJR at the 3. Might they trade down again and maybe pick him?

As far as Jackson landing on our lap, I just can't see it happening. If he somehow doesn't get picked in the top 3, PHX grabs him at the 4 without a moment's hesitation. That would pretty much mean that we chose between Isaac and DSJR.

I just want the draft to be here already. We have speculated enough for 3 offseason.

[Knightro]

you're right, lets get rid of all the players we have that arent all-stars. i mean, thats just Fournier right? everyone else on the team a star and get no criticism. not our non-shooting PG, our PF that is still a project 3 years in, our new coin toss Ross. go ahead, like Vuc, Harris, Dipo, etc, lets just throw away players that other teams would love. Lets just give him to the Spurs for a 2025 2nd round pick

No one said Fournier was the only guy played that played poorly. The team won 29 games, pretty much everyone that was in the rotation ended up doing SOMETHING wrong.

The difference is that Fournier got a 5 year, 85M dollar contract in the offseason and simply regressed on both sides of the floor. He's the highest paid player on the team. They paid him to improve upon his very good offensive season of 2015-2016 and he just didn't do that.

Hell, if you REALLY want to go there, the Magic, for all intents and purposes, chose Fournier at 17M a year over Oladipo at 21M a year.

They put their faith (and money) into the guy and he actively got worse.

Not sure why you would be fighting so hard for a guy who put up empty calorie stats on a bad basketball team.

[Jameerthefear]

he was top-10 in scoring for SG's last year, after having to shoulder the load as the primary scorer when he shouldnt have been.

well, the trend continues of having a losing season, so lets tear into our own players

Fournier was really bad this past year. I don't hate the guy, but he was just not good in any respect.

His defense, which has never been good, was absolutely terrible and his overall offensive performance took a major step backwards.

Since he's never going to be a good defender, Fournier MUST be a strong offensive player to make up for it. If he can bounce back to his form under Skiles, then ok. If he doesn't, then he's gotta go.

It's hard to say he definitely will bounce back, considering 2015-16 looks like the outlier compared to the other four years of his career.

We're not arguing against against trading Fournier, were arguing against salary dumping him to move backwards in the draft which would be hilariously dumb.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[Knightro]

We're not arguing against against trading Fournier, were arguing against salary dumping him to move backwards in the draft which would be hilariously dumb.

I'm not arguing that either.

The other poster in here said Fournier is more asset than liability and I happen to not agree with that. Not based on the way he played last year anyway.

I'm hoping he turns it around.

[MagicStarwipe]

I thought Fournier's tunnel vision got better under Vogel than it did under Skiles. At least towards the end of the season. He just shot and drove a lot worse.

[magicman112]

I thought Fournier's tunnel vision got better under Vogel than it did under Skiles. At least towards the end of the season. He just shot and drove a lot worse.

He was being used as a facilitator which he does not do well. He was much more effective off the ball catching and shooting and driving.

[backasswards]

Haven't gone through the entire thread but has anyone made the comparison to Moe Harkless? Do we think that's a fair one?

[Skin]

he was top-10 in scoring for SG's last year, after having to shoulder the load as the primary scorer when he shouldnt have been.

well, the trend continues of having a losing season, so lets tear into our own players

Fournier was really bad this past year. I don't hate the guy, but he was just not good in any respect.

His defense, which has never been good, was absolutely terrible and his overall offensive performance took a major step backwards.

Since he's never going to be a good defender, Fournier MUST be a strong offensive player to make up for it. If he can bounce back to his form under Skiles, then ok. If he doesn't, then he's gotta go.

It's hard to say he definitely will bounce back, considering 2015-16 looks like the outlier compared to the other four years of his career.

you're right, lets get rid of all the players we have that arent all-stars. i mean, thats just Fournier right? everyone else on the team a star and get no criticism. not our non-shooting PG, our PF that is still a project 3 years in, our new coin toss Ross. go ahead, like Vuc, Harris, Dipo, etc, lets just throw away players that other teams would love. Lets just give him to the Spurs for a 2025 2nd round pick

That is EXACTLY what we need to do. Shed the dollars and open up the playing time to guys who we need to develop.

Stringing along with Fournier, Ross, Vucevic, Biyombo, Augustin or Meeks or the like is NBA abyss.

They are not helping us move the needle. Our only goal is finding and developing a young player into a star.

ONLY THEN will ORL start to get on the map again. Because the next step after that will be reeling in big named FAs who want to join a team with young star talent... and that's not happening unless we have cap space.

[tiderulz]

Fournier was really bad this past year. I don't hate the guy, but he was just not good in any respect.

His defense, which has never been good, was absolutely terrible and his overall offensive performance took a major step backwards.

Since he's never going to be a good defender, Fournier MUST be a strong offensive player to make up for it. If he can bounce back to his form under Skiles, then ok. If he doesn't, then he's gotta go.

It's hard to say he definitely will bounce back, considering 2015-16 looks like the outlier compared to the other four years of his career.

you're right, lets get rid of all the players we have that arent all-stars. i mean, thats just Fournier right? everyone else on the team a star and get no criticism. not our non-shooting PG, our PF that is still a project 3 years in, our new coin toss Ross. go ahead, like Vuc, Harris, Dipo, etc, lets just throw away players that other teams would love. Lets just give him to the Spurs for a 2025 2nd round pick

That is EXACTLY what we need to do. Shed the dollars and open up the playing time to guys who we need to develop.

Stringing along with Fournier, Ross, Vucevic, Biyombo, Augustin or Meeks or the like is NBA abyss.

They are not helping us move the needle. Our only goal is finding and developing a young player into a star.

ONLY THEN will ORL start to get on the map again. Because the next step after that will be reeling in big named FAs who want to join a team with young star talent... and that's not happening unless we have cap space.

you mean overpaying above and beyond what anyone else is willing to pay for a player. because besides Grant Hill, that is what our history is with FA's.

[Nemesis21]

Haven't gone through the entire thread but has anyone made the comparison to Moe Harkless? Do we think that's a fair one?

[Skin]

you're right, lets get rid of all the players we have that arent all-stars. i mean, thats just Fournier right? everyone else on the team a star and get no criticism. not our non-shooting PG, our PF that is still a project 3 years in, our new coin toss Ross. go ahead, like Vuc, Harris, Dipo, etc, lets just throw away players that other teams would love. Lets just give him to the Spurs for a 2025 2nd round pick

That is EXACTLY what we need to do. Shed the dollars and open up the playing time to guys who we need to develop.

Stringing along with Fournier, Ross, Vucevic, Biyombo, Augustin or Meeks or the like is NBA abyss.

They are not helping us move the needle. Our only goal is finding and developing a young player into a star.

ONLY THEN will ORL start to get on the map again. Because the next step after that will be reeling in big named FAs who want to join a team with young star talent... and that's not happening unless we have cap space.

you mean overpaying above and beyond what anyone else is willing to pay for a player. because besides Grant Hill, that is what our history is with FA's.

If it's a legit star, then yeah... you pony up.

[Knightro]

Haven't gone through the entire thread but has anyone made the comparison to Moe Harkless? Do we think that's a fair one?

Not even close when you take a closer look.

Let's start with measureables.

Harkless at 19
Height: 6'8 ¾", Weight: 207, Wingspan: 7'0", Standing reach: 8'6 ½"

Isaac at 19
Height: 6'10 ½", Weight: 205, Wingspan: 7'1 ¼", Standing reach: 9'0 ½"

Isaac is taller with a slightly longer wingspan and a significantly longer standing reach. These differences might not seem like much, but they will really show up when we dive into the defensive metrics.

Speaking of, let's head into the numbers...

Harkless
Shooting
FG%: .452, 2PT%: .506, 3PT%: .215, FT%: .676, TS%: .504, eFG%: .472, 3PAr: .185, FTr: 326

Non-scoring
PER: 21.1, TRB%: 14.0, AST%: 9.6, STL%: 2.6, BLK%: 4.2, TOV%: 14.0, USG%: 24.9

Metrics
OBPM: 1.4, DBPM: 2.0, BPM: 3.4, ORTG: 102.3, DRTG: 102.0

Isaac
Shooting
FG%: .508, 2PT%: .593, 3PT%: .348, FT%: .780, TS%: .614, eFG%: .568, 3PAr: .348, FTr: .461

Non-scoring
PER: 24.6, TRB%: 16.7, AST%: 7.5, STL%: 2.4, BLK%: 6.2, TOV%: 13.3, USG%: 20.3

Metrics
OBPM: 4.7, DBPM: 6.2, BPM: 10.9, ORTG: 122.2, DRTG: 93.6

Jonathan Isaac is a significantly better shooter than Harkless from every area of the floor at the same age. On top of that, Isaac drew more fouls, rebounded better, blocked more shots and turned the ball over less.

Harkless has the edge in assists and steals, but Isaac's advanced metrics blow Moe's out of the water on both ends of the floor, especially on the defensive end.

[nymets1]

I saw on the Suns board that their GM spoke to the media and sayed We taking the best player available at 4.

If Celtics take Jayson Tatum at 3, Josh Jackson should be considered BPA at 4

If Celtics take Josh jackson at 3, Jayson Tatum should be considered BPA at 4

Kings are supposed to take Fox so I feel Isaac is available at our 6th. Nobody has sold me on the Suns taking Isaac over Tatum or Jackson.

[backasswards]

Haven't gone through the entire thread but has anyone made the comparison to Moe Harkless? Do we think that's a fair one?

So you're saying that's not a fair comparison? I'll see myself out thanks.

[backasswards]

Haven't gone through the entire thread but has anyone made the comparison to Moe Harkless? Do we think that's a fair one?

Not even close when you take a closer look.

Let's start with measureables.

Harkless at 19
Height: 6'8 ¾", Weight: 207, Wingspan: 7'0", Standing reach: 8'6 ½"

Isaac at 19
Height: 6'10 ½", Weight: 205, Wingspan: 7'1 ¼", Standing reach: 9'0 ½"

Isaac is taller with a slightly longer wingspan and a significantly longer standing reach. These differences might not seem like much, but they will really show up when we dive into the defensive metrics.

Speaking of, let's head into the numbers...

Harkless
Shooting
FG%: .452, 2PT%: .506, 3PT%: .215, FT%: .676, TS%: .504, eFG%: .472, 3PAr: .185, FTr: 326

Non-scoring
PER: 21.1, TRB%: 14.0, AST%: 9.6, STL%: 2.6, BLK%: 4.2, TOV%: 14.0, USG%: 24.9

Metrics
OBPM: 1.4, DBPM: 2.0, BPM: 3.4, ORTG: 102.3, DRTG: 102.0

Isaac
Shooting
FG%: .508, 2PT%: .593, 3PT%: .348, FT%: .780, TS%: .614, eFG%: .568, 3PAr: .348, FTr: .461

Non-scoring
PER: 24.6, TRB%: 16.7, AST%: 7.5, STL%: 2.4, BLK%: 6.2, TOV%: 13.3, USG%: 20.3

Metrics
OBPM: 4.7, DBPM: 6.2, BPM: 10.9, ORTG: 122.2, DRTG: 93.6

Jonathan Isaac is a significantly better shooter than Harkless from every area of the floor at the same age. On top of that, Isaac drew more fouls, rebounded better, blocked more shots and turned the ball over less.

Harkless has the edge in assists and steals, but Isaac's advanced metrics blow Moe's out of the water on both ends of the floor, especially on the defensive end.

I know Isaac's measurables are better. I've read the scouting reports and watched several of cut-ups on YouTube and was curious to see if the comparison was valid or not. I've been out of the game for a while so bear with me

[Knightro]

I know Isaac's measurables are better. I've read the scouting reports and watched several of cut-ups on YouTube and was curious to see if the comparison was valid or not. I've been out of the game for a while so bear with me

Harkless was a bad shooter in college and, not surprisingly, is still bad shooter (.315 career 3PT/.283 career 16-23 feet) in the pros.

To his credit, Moe has been a better defender in the pros than he was at St. John's. He's graded slightly above average statistically for his career.

Obviously there's no guarantees when it comes to making the jump from college to the NBA, but Isaac has shown at the same age that he's a much better shooter AND defender than Harkless was.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

So much of his scoring came from being spoon fed at the rim or being the tallest and longest guy hitting the offensive boards with 85% (63/74) of his made shots at the rim being assisted or put backs. For comparison, Josh Jackson only had 63% (81/127) despite Kansas running plays for him to get an alley oop multiple times a game and Jayson Tatum is even lower at just 43% (32/75). That means that over the entire college basketball season, Jonathan Isaac successfully created his own shot at the rim, whether it was off a steal in transition, attacking the basket off the wing, making a multi-dribble post move, really anything, a total of 11 times.

Isaac’s offensive package has a solid foundation to build on, but I don’t think he has the smoothness or athleticism to be a shot creator at the next level. Over the 32-game season for Florida State, Isaac had a total of only 32 unassisted made baskets that weren’t the result of an offensive rebound, 16 of which were 2-point jump shots (48 over 35 for Jackson and 44 over 29 for Tatum) and 5 of which were 3-point shots (with the same number of unassisted 3s for Jackson and Tatum). That’s not to say that there is anything wrong with being more reliant on others to help create your offense, but when you consider his lack of ability to create offense for himself and the lack of playmaking ability for others (Isaac: 7.5 AST%, Jackson: 18.2 AST%, Tatum: 12.2 AST%), it’s very tough to project him as a first or even second offensive option on a good team without expecting vast improvements on both areas of that games.

When I read things like this I get very very worried about Isaac... I am really hoping that Bacon/XRM and Ham being an awful coach held Isaac back at FSU.

[Global Game]

Isaac is being drafted by the Suns. (he won't work out beyond top four because)

The Kings owner is drafting Fox.

Jackson's mechanics are awful.

Tatum to the Celtics for Butler

[Nemesis21]

Haven't gone through the entire thread but has anyone made the comparison to Moe Harkless? Do we think that's a fair one?

So you're saying that's not a fair comparison? I'll see myself out thanks.

Absolutely not. Not even close.