FIRE WELTMAN

[cedric76]

Ja is inefficient
Injury prone
A bit of a head case
And doesn’t improve our shooting problems

I’d go elsewhere if it was up to me

Head case ? One of the smartest guy on this team

Yeah it’s not like he’s been suspended for moronic behavior and even last season made it a point to clown the league with his celebrations despite of his past

My bad, I thought you said JI, I agree with you on JA

[Fortune Teller]

Let's take a look back at the 2023 draft lottery now that those players have two full seasons in the books. The Magic had two lottery picks. How would you re-draft?

Career PPG
1. Victor Wembanyama -- 22.5
2. Brandon Miller -- 18.3
3. Scoot Henderson -- 13.3
4. Amen Thompson -- 11.9
5. Gradey Dick -- 11.3
6. Bilal Coulibaly -- 10.3
7. Ausar Thompson -- 9.4
8. Jordan Hawkins -- 9.2
9. Dereck Lively -- 8.8
10. Cason Wallace -- 7.5
11. Anthony Black -- 7.2
12. Taylor Hendricks -- 7.1
13. Jarace Walker -- 5.4
14. Jett Howard -- 3.8

Career RPG
1. Victor Wembanyama -- 10.8
2. Amen Thompson -- 7.4
3. Dereck Lively -- 7.1
4. Ausar Thompson -- 5.8
5. Taylor Hendricks -- 4.7
6. Bilal Coulibaly -- 4.5
7. Brandon Miller -- 4.4
8. Scoot Henderson -- 3.1
9. Gradey Dick -- 2.9
10. Cason Wallace -- 2.8
11. Jarace Walker -- 2.7
12. Jordan Hawkins -- 2.5
Anthony Black -- 2.5
14. Jett Howard -- 1.0

Career APG
1. Scoot Henderson -- 5.2
2. Victor Wembanyama -- 3.8
3. Amen Thompson -- 3.3
4. Brandon Miller -- 2.7
5. Bilal Coulibaly -- 2.5
6. Anthony Black -- 2.3
7. Ausar Thompson -- 2.1
8. Cason Wallace -- 2.0
9. Dereck Lively -- 1.6
10. Gradey Dick -- 1.5
11. Jarace Walker -- 1.4
12. Jordan Hawkins -- 1.1
13. Taylor Hendricks -- 0.8
14. Jett Howard -- 0.6

[fendilim]

Let's take a look back at the 2023 draft lottery now that those players have two full seasons in the books. The Magic had two lottery picks. How would you re-draft?

Career PPG
1. Victor Wembanyama -- 22.5
2. Brandon Miller -- 18.3
3. Scoot Henderson -- 13.3
4. Amen Thompson -- 11.9
5. Gradey Dick -- 11.3
6. Bilal Coulibaly -- 10.3
7. Ausar Thompson -- 9.4
8. Jordan Hawkins -- 9.2
9. Dereck Lively -- 8.8
10. Cason Wallace -- 7.5
11. Anthony Black -- 7.2
12. Taylor Hendricks -- 7.1
13. Jarace Walker -- 5.4
14. Jett Howard -- 3.8

Career RPG
1. Victor Wembanyama -- 10.8
2. Amen Thompson -- 7.4
3. Dereck Lively -- 7.1
4. Ausar Thompson -- 5.8
5. Taylor Hendricks -- 4.7
6. Bilal Coulibaly -- 4.5
7. Brandon Miller -- 4.4
8. Scoot Henderson -- 3.1
9. Gradey Dick -- 2.9
10. Cason Wallace -- 2.8
11. Jarace Walker -- 2.7
12. Jordan Hawkins -- 2.5
Anthony Black -- 2.5
14. Jett Howard -- 1.0

Career APG
1. Scoot Henderson -- 5.2
2. Victor Wembanyama -- 3.8
3. Amen Thompson -- 3.3
4. Brandon Miller -- 2.7
5. Bilal Coulibaly -- 2.5
6. Anthony Black -- 2.3
7. Ausar Thompson -- 2.1
8. Cason Wallace -- 2.0
9. Dereck Lively -- 1.6
10. Gradey Dick -- 1.5
11. Jarace Walker -- 1.4
12. Jordan Hawkins -- 1.1
13. Taylor Hendricks -- 0.8
14. Jett Howard -- 0.6

how bout the rankings for their average this year?

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Let's take a look back at the 2023 draft lottery now that those players have two full seasons in the books. The Magic had two lottery picks. How would you re-draft?

Career PPG
1. Victor Wembanyama -- 22.5
2. Brandon Miller -- 18.3
3. Scoot Henderson -- 13.3
4. Amen Thompson -- 11.9
5. Gradey Dick -- 11.3
6. Bilal Coulibaly -- 10.3
7. Ausar Thompson -- 9.4
8. Jordan Hawkins -- 9.2
9. Dereck Lively -- 8.8
10. Cason Wallace -- 7.5
11. Anthony Black -- 7.2
12. Taylor Hendricks -- 7.1
13. Jarace Walker -- 5.4
14. Jett Howard -- 3.8

Career RPG
1. Victor Wembanyama -- 10.8
2. Amen Thompson -- 7.4
3. Dereck Lively -- 7.1
4. Ausar Thompson -- 5.8
5. Taylor Hendricks -- 4.7
6. Bilal Coulibaly -- 4.5
7. Brandon Miller -- 4.4
8. Scoot Henderson -- 3.1
9. Gradey Dick -- 2.9
10. Cason Wallace -- 2.8
11. Jarace Walker -- 2.7
12. Jordan Hawkins -- 2.5
Anthony Black -- 2.5
14. Jett Howard -- 1.0

Career APG
1. Scoot Henderson -- 5.2
2. Victor Wembanyama -- 3.8
3. Amen Thompson -- 3.3
4. Brandon Miller -- 2.7
5. Bilal Coulibaly -- 2.5
6. Anthony Black -- 2.3
7. Ausar Thompson -- 2.1
8. Cason Wallace -- 2.0
9. Dereck Lively -- 1.6
10. Gradey Dick -- 1.5
11. Jarace Walker -- 1.4
12. Jordan Hawkins -- 1.1
13. Taylor Hendricks -- 0.8
14. Jett Howard -- 0.6

I'd probably still go Black but then take Lively II and damn we'd be in a much better spot. Black turns into your cheaper KCP this coming year, Lively easily starts. You move the following players and go get a playmaking guard and better bench wing. KCP, WCJ, Jett, Cole, Gary or cut him

I originally wanted Cason and Lively to begin with.. was ok with Black but the Jett pick was atrocious with the names still on the board.

[The-Stallion70]

Invested $220M in the sg position last offseason and got largely nothing from that position this year. Time for Jeffy to go. We are not going to win a playoff series in 2025 with COJO and KCP as starting guards.

Paolo, Franz and Wendell are good enough by themselves to take a game off Boston if they are out there with only replacement level players. It just sucks that that's who they seemed to be out there with.

Time for Jeffy to go. He basically did what he was hired to do which is make the playoffs a few years with the Vucevic teams to have something to show for the Hennigan era and then set the team up for future success which he also did by finding the young talent he did.

[Fortune Teller]

Invested $220M in the sg position last offseason and got largely nothing from that position this year. Time for Jeffy to go. We are not going to win a playoff series in 2025 with COJO and KCP as starting guards.

Paolo, Franz and Wendell are good enough by themselves to take a game off Boston if they are out there with only replacement level players. It just sucks that that's who they seemed to be out there with.

Time for Jeffy to go. He basically did what he was hired to do which is make the playoffs a few years with the Vucevic teams to have something to show for the Hennigan era and then set the team up for future success which he also did by finding the young talent he did.

Points scored by the winning team in the ECF:
130
106
114
138

Points scored by the winning team in the WCF:
114
118
143
128
124

That's the price to play in the 2025 conference finals. But Jeff's mindset the past 2 summers was: 1) use the #6 pick on an offensively-limited utility player; 2) spend our cap space on defensive specialist KCP; and, 3) re-sign broken former defensive specialist Jonathan Isaac.

We are more behind the 8-ball than most want to admit and just trading Wendell or Cole is not going to result in real change.

[bigdogdylan5]

Invested $220M in the sg position last offseason and got largely nothing from that position this year. Time for Jeffy to go. We are not going to win a playoff series in 2025 with COJO and KCP as starting guards.

Paolo, Franz and Wendell are good enough by themselves to take a game off Boston if they are out there with only replacement level players. It just sucks that that's who they seemed to be out there with.

Time for Jeffy to go. He basically did what he was hired to do which is make the playoffs a few years with the Vucevic teams to have something to show for the Hennigan era and then set the team up for future success which he also did by finding the young talent he did.

Points scored by the winning team in the ECF:
130
106
114
138

Points scored by the winning team in the WCF:
114
118
143
128
124

That's the price to play in the 2025 conference finals. But Jeff's mindset the past 2 summers was: 1) use the #6 pick on an offensively-limited utility player; 2) spend our cap space on defensive specialist KCP; and, 3) re-sign broken former defensive specialist Jonathan Isaac.

We are more behind the 8-ball than most want to admit and just trading Wendell or Cole is not going to result in real change.

Do you know the terms of the Isaac extension? I could make an argument it’s one of the best contracts in the NBA and is extremely tradable. There is no downside to it. His injury history has pretty much full protection in his contract. If he fails to play more than 52 games next season or any season after this one next years guarantee cuts in half and the last two years become non guaranteed. 15 million per year is also an extremely reasonable number for defensive value he brings.

[Black and Blue]

Invested $220M in the sg position last offseason and got largely nothing from that position this year. Time for Jeffy to go. We are not going to win a playoff series in 2025 with COJO and KCP as starting guards.

Paolo, Franz and Wendell are good enough by themselves to take a game off Boston if they are out there with only replacement level players. It just sucks that that's who they seemed to be out there with.

Time for Jeffy to go. He basically did what he was hired to do which is make the playoffs a few years with the Vucevic teams to have something to show for the Hennigan era and then set the team up for future success which he also did by finding the young talent he did.

Points scored by the winning team in the ECF:
130
106
114
138

Points scored by the winning team in the WCF:
114
118
143
128
124

That's the price to play in the 2025 conference finals. But Jeff's mindset the past 2 summers was: 1) use the #6 pick on an offensively-limited utility player; 2) spend our cap space on defensive specialist KCP; and, 3) re-sign broken former defensive specialist Jonathan Isaac.

We are more behind the 8-ball than most want to admit and just trading Wendell or Cole is not going to result in real change.

Do you know the terms of the Isaac extension? I could make an argument it’s one of the best contracts in the NBA and is extremely tradable. There is no downside to it. His injury history has pretty much full protection in his contract. If he fails to play more than 52 games next season or any season after this one next years guarantee cuts in half and the last two years become non guaranteed. 15 million per year is also an extremely reasonable number for defensive value he brings.

Absolutely agree. It's basically a contract that's meant to be traded. That deal is going to be huge in making money work if the Magic want to bring in more firepower.

If Isaac is on our roster this upcoming season, something went horribly, horribly wrong with Weltman's offseason plans to improve this team.

[Skybox]

Do you know the terms of the Isaac extension? I could make an argument it’s one of the best contracts in the NBA and is extremely tradable. There is no downside to it. His injury history has pretty much full protection in his contract. If he fails to play more than 52 games next season or any season after this one next years guarantee cuts in half and the last two years become non guaranteed. 15 million per year is also an extremely reasonable number for defensive value he brings.

I agree that his deal is (potentially) great, even playing limited minutes. I am back on the Isaac bandwagon after his postseason interview. He has been relatively healthy for two seasons. Prime Isaac is a real difference-maker, especially in the intense playoff atmosphere.

Having said that, has any team ever utilized the "outs" in their contract for a guy missing time, etc? (serious question)...there are many many instances of us talking about "not pissing off agents" or scaring away free agents, etc...even to the point of "we would never trade him somewhere he didn't want to go because...family". Would a GM ever just grab the loophole in a player's deal to jettison a guy for being hurt on the job?

I'm not judging or taking a side - I just don't know how much the value of the "outs" really is.

[Fortune Teller]

Invested $220M in the sg position last offseason and got largely nothing from that position this year. Time for Jeffy to go. We are not going to win a playoff series in 2025 with COJO and KCP as starting guards.

Paolo, Franz and Wendell are good enough by themselves to take a game off Boston if they are out there with only replacement level players. It just sucks that that's who they seemed to be out there with.

Time for Jeffy to go. He basically did what he was hired to do which is make the playoffs a few years with the Vucevic teams to have something to show for the Hennigan era and then set the team up for future success which he also did by finding the young talent he did.

Points scored by the winning team in the ECF:
130
106
114
138

Points scored by the winning team in the WCF:
114
118
143
128
124

That's the price to play in the 2025 conference finals. But Jeff's mindset the past 2 summers was: 1) use the #6 pick on an offensively-limited utility player; 2) spend our cap space on defensive specialist KCP; and, 3) re-sign broken former defensive specialist Jonathan Isaac.

We are more behind the 8-ball than most want to admit and just trading Wendell or Cole is not going to result in real change.

Do you know the terms of the Isaac extension? I could make an argument it’s one of the best contracts in the NBA and is extremely tradable. There is no downside to it. His injury history has pretty much full protection in his contract. If he fails to play more than 52 games next season or any season after this one next years guarantee cuts in half and the last two years become non guaranteed. 15 million per year is also an extremely reasonable number for defensive value he brings.

Yes I do know the terms of his deal, and a tradable contract only has value if you actually might trade it. This guy will be here until he retires and until that day comes there will be posters on this board who pretend he’s some bargain even though for 8 years he hasn’t lived up to his deal.

[The-Stallion70]

Points scored by the winning team in the ECF:
130
106
114
138

Points scored by the winning team in the WCF:
114
118
143
128
124

That's the price to play in the 2025 conference finals. But Jeff's mindset the past 2 summers was: 1) use the #6 pick on an offensively-limited utility player; 2) spend our cap space on defensive specialist KCP; and, 3) re-sign broken former defensive specialist Jonathan Isaac.

We are more behind the 8-ball than most want to admit and just trading Wendell or Cole is not going to result in real change.

Do you know the terms of the Isaac extension? I could make an argument it’s one of the best contracts in the NBA and is extremely tradable. There is no downside to it. His injury history has pretty much full protection in his contract. If he fails to play more than 52 games next season or any season after this one next years guarantee cuts in half and the last two years become non guaranteed. 15 million per year is also an extremely reasonable number for defensive value he brings.

Absolutely agree. It's basically a contract that's meant to be traded. That deal is going to be huge in making money work if the Magic want to bring in more firepower.

If Isaac is on our roster this upcoming season, something went horribly, horribly wrong with Weltman's offseason plans to improve this team.

Newsflash but $15M guaranteed for 4 ppg and 5 rpg for 15 mpg limit Isaac doesn't exactly scream tradeable. He's a defensive player in an offensive era.

Time to stop overrating our players.

[Black and Blue]

Do you know the terms of the Isaac extension? I could make an argument it’s one of the best contracts in the NBA and is extremely tradable. There is no downside to it. His injury history has pretty much full protection in his contract. If he fails to play more than 52 games next season or any season after this one next years guarantee cuts in half and the last two years become non guaranteed. 15 million per year is also an extremely reasonable number for defensive value he brings.

Absolutely agree. It's basically a contract that's meant to be traded. That deal is going to be huge in making money work if the Magic want to bring in more firepower.

If Isaac is on our roster this upcoming season, something went horribly, horribly wrong with Weltman's offseason plans to improve this team.

Newsflash but $15M guaranteed for 4 ppg and 5 rpg for 15 mpg limit Isaac doesn't exactly scream tradeable. He's a defensive player in an offensive era.

Time to stop overrating our players.

Newflash the guaranteed money is front loaded and there are stipulations about games played and he can be cut with no repercussions rather early in the deal. Check the language.

[pepe1991]

Absolutely agree. It's basically a contract that's meant to be traded. That deal is going to be huge in making money work if the Magic want to bring in more firepower.

If Isaac is on our roster this upcoming season, something went horribly, horribly wrong with Weltman's offseason plans to improve this team.

Newsflash but $15M guaranteed for 4 ppg and 5 rpg for 15 mpg limit Isaac doesn't exactly scream tradeable. He's a defensive player in an offensive era.

Time to stop overrating our players.

Newflash the guaranteed money is front loaded and there are stipulations about games played and he can be cut with no repercussions rather early in the deal. Check the language.

2024-25 he got total of $27,6M for being useless

He already played enough games to have guaranteed $15M in 2025-26


He has $8M guaranteed in 2026-27 regardless, if he plays 52 games ( or single game after moratorium) he gets full $15M

After that his money isn't guaranteed, but is still tied in 52 games played to be guaranteed.


Is his contract untradable? No. But is it desired one for other teams? Probably not. You get declining, 28 years old defensive specialist that is massive liability on defense, who is injury prone. He actually might have more value if he is hurt, because teams can use his salary to lower their salary cap if they are sure he can't play 52 games but you still have to pay him $15M in 2025-26 and at least $8M in 2026-27.

[bigdogdylan5]

Yes I do know the terms of his deal, and a tradable contract only has value if you actually might trade it. This guy will be here until he retires and until that day comes there will be posters on this board who pretend he’s some bargain even though for 8 years he hasn’t lived up to his deal.

I just don’t see how he will be on this team much longer. Your best and most expensive players play his position. He is honestly the first place to start if they intend to trade defense for offense. The only way I see him on the team is if they are trying to big game hunt and see someone coming available at trade deadline they need to match salary for. Will see what happens

[Skybox]

bottom line with Isaac is the national perception of his value...certainly has way too much POTENTIAL defensive impact to just try to "dump" or throw in to a trade as filler. I'd be fine with moving him in a big trade and, hopefully, finding another good sized defender without the injury concerns or limitations (Herb Jones?) that can play multiple spots...but it's unlikely that anyone available has his defensive identity and versatility at his salary.

defense for offense certainly would be sensible, but again...depends on his perceived trade value - I tend to think he might be more valuable to us than others will pay for him...I could EASILY see Brad Stevens recognizing an undervalued needle-mover that also saves them a ton of salary as part of a Jrue trade. Then we get to watch him become the perfect specialist on a well-assembled, high BBIQ BOS team

Obviously, I'm torn on Isaac...but my biggest complaint is clinging to mediocre because "he might...", so maybe I'm guilty of that here. Definitely not untouchable, but others may have no interest either.

[Black and Blue]

Newsflash but $15M guaranteed for 4 ppg and 5 rpg for 15 mpg limit Isaac doesn't exactly scream tradeable. He's a defensive player in an offensive era.

Time to stop overrating our players.

Newflash the guaranteed money is front loaded and there are stipulations about games played and he can be cut with no repercussions rather early in the deal. Check the language.

2024-25 he got total of $27,6M for being useless

He already played enough games to have guaranteed $15M in 2025-26


He has $8M guaranteed in 2026-27 regardless, if he plays 52 games ( or single game after moratorium) he gets full $15M

After that his money isn't guaranteed, but is still tied in 52 games played to be guaranteed.


Is his contract untradable? No. But is it desired one for other teams? Probably not. You get declining, 28 years old defensive specialist that is massive liability on defense, who is injury prone. He actually might have more value if he is hurt, because teams can use his salary to lower their salary cap if they are sure he can't play 52 games but you still have to pay him $15M in 2025-26 and at least $8M in 2026-27.

You won’t get any arguments from me that it’s a deal anyone actively wants, but to my original post it is there to help make other deals work. It’s high enough to make trades workable, and voidable enough on the backend that there isn’t a long term sting for whomever gets him.

[SOUL]

Thunder are where they are because they have arguably one of the best defenses of all time pound for pound and an MVP and Pacers are just a well-oiled machine that are peaking at the right time. Both can shoot the three well. Magic obviously need more offense and good perimeter play but we actually match up against the Pacers really well.

So I'd argue that defense is super important. We'll need Franz and Paolo to play top 20 ball and have to at least however around league average offense to make some noise. That isn't impossible in itself. The rest will take a bit of injury luck, matchups, playing well at the right time(s).

Trying to overhaul your team to be something is isn't reeks of desperation and its what a bunch of teams tried to do with the Warriors when they never had a Steph, Klay, or Dray.

[basketballRob]

OKCs best player is also in his 7th season. If you look at his stats, he had a jump in his 5th season. Franz and Suggs are both entering their 5th season.



Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

[Fortune Teller]

No one is saying defense isn't important, but it's inarguable that the Magic have a good defense and nothing else. Bottom 10 in offense all 8 years of Jeff's tenure, I believe bottom 3 the past few years, and the worst 3-point shooting team in the league by a significant margin. That is the context of the Isaac debate, which is not held in a vacuum. No matter how economical you think his deal is because of injury protections and guarantees, it's money that could've been spent on something the team actually needs. If you just look at 2024-25 -- an objectively garbage season for JI -- he made at least $25 million to do absolutely nothing even though he was "healthy". Yes, that was the healthy JI we've all been waiting for, and what value did we get from the highest-paid player on the roster? And this past season wasn't an anomaly, he's gone consecutive seasons not even suiting up once while being paid in full. So big picture, why keep throwing money at him? We really couldn't have used that money some other way last season? Oh but it's only $15 mil next season...so what? There's not a better way to spend $15 mil on something we actually need? Not to mention that he's getting worse, not better, and despite actually being able to play the past two seasons is still on minutes restrictions and useless in the playoffs. There are utility players all across the league who make a fraction of what Isaac makes and contribute twice as much.

[OrlandoNed]

No one is saying defense isn't important, but it's inarguable that the Magic have a good defense and nothing else. Bottom 10 in offense all 8 years of Jeff's tenure, I believe bottom 3 the past few years, and the worst 3-point shooting team in the league by a significant margin. That is the context of the Isaac debate, which is not held in a vacuum. No matter how economical you think his deal is because of injury protections and guarantees, it's money that could've been spent on something the team actually needs. If you just look at 2024-25 -- an objectively garbage season for JI -- he made at least $25 million to do absolutely nothing even though he was "healthy". Yes, that was the healthy JI we've all been waiting for, and what value did we get from the highest-paid player on the roster? And this past season wasn't an anomaly, he's gone consecutive seasons not even suiting up once while being paid in full. So big picture, why keep throwing money at him? We really couldn't have used that money some other way last season? Oh but it's only $15 mil next season...so what? There's not a better way to spend $15 mil on something we actually need? Not to mention that he's getting worse, not better, and despite actually being able to play the past two seasons is still on minutes restrictions and useless in the playoffs. There are utility players all across the league who make a fraction of what Isaac makes and contribute twice as much.

Jeff definitely missed Economics class on the days they taught the concepts of "diminishing returns" and "return on investment".