2023-2024 Regular Season Game 10/In-Season Tournament Game 1: Orlando Magic (5-4) at Brooklyn Nets (5-5) - 7:30pm

[ibraheim718]

Spencer Dinwiddie had 29 points, 9 assists and made 5 threes tonight.

The Magic don't have a guard on their roster that could put up those numbers in 2 games combined. Maybe not even in 3 games combined.

They need a lead guard in the worst way. Not to take the ball *away* from Paolo and Franz, but to help those get even better by creating easier shots for them and everyone else.

Trying to consistently score points with your 3 and 4 initiating every set is not a recipe for long-term success. And that's especially the case when you don't have knockdown shooters at the 1, 2 or 5 either.

The nets with that bum Dinwiddie are doing nothing this year. He's a chucker who clanks shots when it matters. If the envy of your eye is Spencer Dinwiddie then I don't know what to tell you.

Look at the CAVS.. they have two of the guards you want. Got beat by the Knicks in the playoffs when they were favored and this year? 4-6.

You try and constantly simplify the game down to guard play and it's not that clear cut.

Best player in the game.. play makes from the 5 and just won a chip.

Milwaukee plays completely off of Giannis.. dude shoots bricks.

The Celtics have been rotating guards in their line up year in and year out.. can't get over the hump.

Basketball is way more complex than just get a guard.. shoot 3's.

Teams have won by attempting a lot of 3's but not at a high %.

Teams have won shooting a high 3pt % but attempting league average.

Denver last year shot it at good clip from 3 but were at the bottom of the league in 3pt fga's.

The Lakers won in the bubble shooting bottom 10 3pfga% with James and Davis carrying the offense.

I'll take getting stops late in games over hitting 3's late in games. Why? Because when the screws get tightened in post season basketball 3pt % drops even when you have generational shooters like Steph and Klay.

[ibraheim718]

Fultz can help tonight's game. With our bad shooting 3s other than Paolo, Franz and Ingles. Fultz can be a great playmaker on the floor to create for our guards. Tonight's game especially on the offensive end proves one thing we have been talking about - We need a dominate scoring guard who can create for himself and others. That will help Franz and Paolo's game a lot by creating space to operate.

Yeah he could've settled the game down and got a couple of buckets to calm things.

[Knightro]

You folks do realize that the Magic average a little over 87 shots attempted per game, right?

Paolo and Franz are only taking a little under 31 of those 87 shots a night.

That means there's 56 shots on any given night out there that aren't being taken by Paolo and Franz, and yet we're somehow concerned that a real point guard would hinder those guy's development?

What are we even friggin talking about here?

[ibraheim718]

Here's another bit of news.. the NBA game is always changing.. it's always been like that.

[MasterGMer]

This reads like someone who hasn’t been watching the games this season.

A) we have a PG who can create offense for himself and others in Fultz.

B) Paolo doesn’t play well off him. He didn’t play well off Haliburton in FIBA either. He’s a point forward who operates best creating from the perimeter.

C) you whined all summer about the notion Black might be better used as a SF while he develops and you completely rejected the suggestion - but now you want to use that as justification to get another PG?

Do you want development or do you want to win now? I wish you’d just pick a lane.

A. Fultz has never been good at creating offense for other people, particularly in the halfcourt. He's been good enough at shot creation for others in transition, but obviously that's always going to be a much smaller fraction of the game compared to halfcourt offense. And regardless of whether it's injury related or not, Fultz has been decidedly worse this season in basically every element of the game. His ability to create offense for himself has cratered and others has declined dramatically.

B. Paolo doesn't play well off of Fultz primarily for two reasons. 1. Because Fultz isn't good at getting Paolo (or anyone else) the ball in advantageous spots in the halfcourt. 2. Fultz is also incapable of creating space for Paolo's drive game, or punishing defenses when Paolo drives and kicks. Fultz is a double whammy of bad when it comes to pairing with Paolo. They don't compliment each other in any way.

I also think it's very silly to even cite *anything* - good or bad - when it comes to FIBA considering the rules are different, the teammates are all different, and most important - Paolo was playing a role for Team USA that's so dramatically different than what he'll ever play for the Magic.

C. If you go back and look, you'll see that I've quite literally used the phrase "I wish they'd pick a lane" about 50 times in the days, weeks and months leading up to the season and even into the season. I don't care which lane they pick, but they're trying to do both and inevitably it's going to end up with them barely making or outright missing the play in, but not having a clue whether or not Black and Howard can even be heavy minute guys on a team with real expectations next season.

If the Magic want to actually try and win games, then make some trades and get some better talent in here.

If the Magic aren't concerned with winning games and want to maximize development, then stick Black and Jett and Houstan in the rotation. Put Black on the ball every play and force him to initiate pick and rolls and live with the inevitable mistakes and consequences. It'

In my opinion, the best way to develop talent is to win meaningful games or close games. Like tonight's game, Jett got the chance to play and I think this will be a learning experience for him of how to come in and impact the game his way. Because of Fultz injury, AB got to play.

I seriously think this team is doing it both ways. A. Trying to win as many games and B. Trying to develop the young talents on the team.

Tonight's game is interesting. First of all, Paolo and Franz didn't disappoint. Paolo had 19 in tonights game and 4 for 7 from 3. Franz had 20+ game and good efficiency. The problem of tonights game happens on the position of PG and who to lead the team. AB is 1 for 4 from the floor. Cole is 2 for 10 from the floor and Jalen Suggs 4 for 13 from the floor. We need a lead guard who can create for himself and others. Tonight is just not the night

I think that will benefit Franz and Paolo's game even more. If we have a guard like that, considering the spacing on the floor for Franz and Paolo, that would be immense.

Anyway, just a weird game and our guards will bounce back. Chicago tomorrow. We will see!

[ibraheim718]

You folks do realize that the Magic average a little over 87 shots attempted per game, right?

Paolo and Franz are only taking a little under 31 of those 87 shots a night.

That means there's 56 shots on any given night out there that aren't being taken by Paolo and Franz, and yet we're somehow concerned that a real point guard would hinder those guy's development?

What are we even friggin talking about here?

They are top 3 in FGA's allowed against them.

[ibraheim718]

This is insanity with the lead guard stuff. What you want is an already established proven player. The team isn't going in that direction. They're trying to do something different.

[Knightro]

The nets with that bum Dinwiddie are doing nothing this year. He's a chucker who clanks shots when it matters. If the envy of your eye is Spencer Dinwiddie then I don't know what to tell you.

Look at the CAVS.. they have two of the guards you want. Got beat by the Knicks in the playoffs when they were favored and this year? 4-6.

You try and constantly simplify the game down to guard play and it's not that clear cut.

Best player in the game.. play makes from the 5 and just won a chip.

Milwaukee plays completely off of Giannis.. dude shoots bricks.

The Celtics have been rotating guards in their line up year in and year out.. can't get over the hump.

Basketball is way more complex than just get a guard.. shoot 3's.

Teams have won by attempting a lot of 3's but not at a high %.

Teams have won shooting a high 3pt % but attempting league average.

Denver last year shot it at good clip from 3 but were at the bottom of the league in 3pt fga's.

The Lakers won in the bubble shooting bottom 10 3pfga% with James and Davis carrying the offense.

I'll take getting stops late in games over hitting 3's late in games. Why? Because when the screws get tightened in post season basketball 3pt % drops even when you have generational shooters like Steph and Klay.

You're missing the point completely. It's not about Dinwiddie specifically at all. It's about the fact that the Magic don't have any capable shot creation out of their backcourt.

There's not one guard on the entire roster that can capably create offense for himself and for other people.

You can't win that way. This isn't a "attempt moar threes!" argument either.

It's a "get better shots in the halfcourt with a guard capable of running an organized set" argument.

The Magic have something that a lot of other teams simply don't have, and that's *two* building block forwards. Now they need some guard play to actually compliment those guys.

[eyriq]

Black is a stud rookie PG that is the perfect fit around Paolo and Franz. We should play him at PG and develop him. Getting a ball dominant PG is not a good move for current or future performance. It would reduce the offensive load on Paolo and Franz, which would be bad for winning and slow their development, and reduce Black's minutes, which would slow his development.

You just have to accept our offense is going to be garbage and enjoy the ride.

I know that you like Anthony Black a lot, but this is just not accurate in any respect really.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills hearing multiple people suggest with a straight face that bringing in an actual skilled point guard to take command of the offense in the halfcourt is going to somehow *HURT* Paolo and Franz and not help them tremendously by getting the half court offense more organized and helping them get the ball in more advantageous spots.

Organizing the offense and setting up Paolo and Franz in advantageous spots is something Black can get better at and isn't mission critical to have right away, especially since Paolo and Franz are developing as playmakers themselves and are getting reps at organizing the offense between them.

[ibraheim718]

The nets with that bum Dinwiddie are doing nothing this year. He's a chucker who clanks shots when it matters. If the envy of your eye is Spencer Dinwiddie then I don't know what to tell you.

Look at the CAVS.. they have two of the guards you want. Got beat by the Knicks in the playoffs when they were favored and this year? 4-6.

You try and constantly simplify the game down to guard play and it's not that clear cut.

Best player in the game.. play makes from the 5 and just won a chip.

Milwaukee plays completely off of Giannis.. dude shoots bricks.

The Celtics have been rotating guards in their line up year in and year out.. can't get over the hump.

Basketball is way more complex than just get a guard.. shoot 3's.

Teams have won by attempting a lot of 3's but not at a high %.

Teams have won shooting a high 3pt % but attempting league average.

Denver last year shot it at good clip from 3 but were at the bottom of the league in 3pt fga's.

The Lakers won in the bubble shooting bottom 10 3pfga% with James and Davis carrying the offense.

I'll take getting stops late in games over hitting 3's late in games. Why? Because when the screws get tightened in post season basketball 3pt % drops even when you have generational shooters like Steph and Klay.

You're missing the point completely. It's not about Dinwiddie specifically at all. It's about the fact that the Magic don't have any capable shot creation out of their backcourt.

There's not one guard on the entire roster that can capably create offense for himself and for other people.

You can't win that way. This isn't a "attempt moar threes!" argument either.

It's a "get better shots in the halfcourt with a guard capable of running an organized set" argument.

The Magic have something that a lot of other teams simply don't have, and that's *two* building block forwards. Now they need some guard play to actually compliment those guys.

Bro You can't have everything. Take my team.. they have Jalen Brunson.. wings that can shoot.. forwards. I'll take yours. Our fanbase would switch teams with you in a heartbeat. Dead serious.

[ibraheim718]

Black is a stud rookie PG that is the perfect fit around Paolo and Franz. We should play him at PG and develop him. Getting a ball dominant PG is not a good move for current or future performance. It would reduce the offensive load on Paolo and Franz, which would be bad for winning and slow their development, and reduce Black's minutes, which would slow his development.

You just have to accept our offense is going to be garbage and enjoy the ride.

I know that you like Anthony Black a lot, but this is just not accurate in any respect really.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills hearing multiple people suggest with a straight face that bringing in an actual skilled point guard to take command of the offense in the halfcourt is going to somehow *HURT* Paolo and Franz and not help them tremendously by getting the half court offense more organized and helping them get the ball in more advantageous spots.

Organizing the offense and setting up Paolo and Franz in advantageous spots is something Black can get better at and isn't mission critical to have right away, especially since Paolo and Franz are developing as playmakers themselves and are getting reps at organizing the offense between them.

He's not even 20!!!!!! And fans are looking for replacements. Look the teams has chosen a direction and they've chosen a foundation on which to build it on. Now just let them learn how to do it.. THEIR WAY. (animation not directed at you).

[OrlChamps2030]

Black is a stud rookie PG that is the perfect fit around Paolo and Franz. We should play him at PG and develop him. Getting a ball dominant PG is not a good move for current or future performance. It would reduce the offensive load on Paolo and Franz, which would be bad for winning and slow their development, and reduce Black's minutes, which would slow his development.

You just have to accept our offense is going to be garbage and enjoy the ride.

I know that you like Anthony Black a lot, but this is just not accurate in any respect really.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills hearing multiple people suggest with a straight face that bringing in an actual skilled point guard to take command of the offense in the halfcourt is going to somehow *HURT* Paolo and Franz and not help them tremendously by getting the half court offense more organized and helping them get the ball in more advantageous spots.

Who is in play at PG? Brogdon.. Tyus Jones.. or someone bigger?

I still like Simons.. not a PG and not known for creating for others but provides volume 3 point shooting and is good at scoring out of the P&R in the halfcourt. Maybe he has another “level” he can unlock playing next to a defense minded guard in Black/Suggs?

[Knightro]

:lol: This is insanity with the lead guard stuff. What you want is an already established proven player. The team isn't going in that direction. They're trying to do something different.

Then they just aren't going be successful offensively long-term.

Paolo and Franz are just not the same caliber of perimeter shooters as Tatum and Brown were at the same age/experience level if that's the path the Magic are hoping to replicate. Maybe Paolo and Franz will get there over time, but neither guy is in the same stratosphere as shooters as the two Celtics guys were/are.

And the Celtics still went out and got Jrue Holiday, a multi-time all-star lead guard, because their existing guard play wasn't good enough to win a championship.

The Magic need at least one guard capable of creating offense for himself and others and running a competent and organized halfcourt set. Until they get that, they're going to continue to struggle being consistently good offensively.

It's asking too much to put all that playmaking responsibility on two forwards.

[ibraheim718]

Let's play a game... how many more 3's a game would the Magic have to take to be in the top 10 in the NBA?

[Knightro]

Bro You can't have everything. Take my team.. they have Jalen Brunson.. wings that can shoot.. forwards. I'll take yours. Our fanbase would switch teams with you in a heartbeat. Dead serious.

Why not?

The Magic have close to $75M in expiring contracts.

They have all of their 1st and 2nd round draft picks, all of their pick swaps, an extra 2025 first from Denver.

Why can't they get out there and make some trades for some better talent?

[thelead]

We stop tanking and immediately people are in here acting like we need to be competing for championships TODAY

[Residual-Heat]

We are 6th worst in TO%. 24th in ORTG.24th in TS%, 27th in 3pt %. We need a veteran PG that can shoot the 3.

[Knightro]

Let's play a game... how many more 3's a game would the Magic have to take to be in the top 10 in the NBA?

The Magic are currently 25th in 3PT attempts and 25th in 3PT percentage.

To get to 10th in 3PT attempts, they'd have to attempt 4.7 more three pointers per game.

[magik9113]

On the train home from Barclays center. It had been years since I was able to watch the Magic play in person, so i am grateful.

pretty bummed out about the result, but honestly the loss doesn’t hurt too much. It was a weird game and a bad 4th.
If Suggs makes that dunk end of 3rd Q it feels like we hold on and have a totally different fourth. The nets lucky ass off the backboard 3 pointer was stupidly representative of what kind of game it was. It felt like Spencer dimwit couldn’t miss no matter what.

I do wish Black played more over Cole.
I think JI shat the bed a bit today and Cole was not good at all. They’ll both bounce back.
I loved seeing Paolo and Aussie Joe make some threes.

On to the next one, though. this is not a huge deal. The growing pains will continue, but so will our support of this young team.

[ibraheim718]

:lol: This is insanity with the lead guard stuff. What you want is an already established proven player. The team isn't going in that direction. They're trying to do something different.

Then they just aren't going be successful offensively long-term.

Paolo and Franz are just not the same caliber of perimeter shooters as Tatum and Brown were at the same age/experience level if that's the path the Magic are hoping to replicate. Maybe Paolo and Franz will get there over time, but neither guy is in the same stratosphere as shooters as the two Celtics guys were/are.

And the Celtics still went out and got Jrue Holiday, a multi-time all-star lead guard, because their existing guard play wasn't good enough to win a championship.

The Magic need at least one guard capable of creating offense for himself and others and running a competent and organized halfcourt set. Until they get that, they're going to continue to struggle being consistently good offensively.

It's asking too much to put all that playmaking responsibility on two forwards.

But playmaking is one of Paolo's strengths and Franz has been able to get a lot of good shots on his own accord.

I think with all due respect it's way too premature to write off Paolo and Franz. If their decision making had been better this year and in the off season the team wouldn't be 5-5 despite the injuries. They have the potential to be a better duo than Tatum and Brown. And Tatum is an elite talent. Speaking of Tatum.. what did he do in the NBA finals two years ago? Set a record with 100 postseason turnovers.. I bet a mil he would exchange a gang of his 3pters made in exchange for less turnovers. So for him that year what killed him was him turning the ball over it wasn't a lack of making shots. That's what I mean about the complexity of the game. He had to learn.. and there is no guarantee he gets that chance again.