Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October

[eyriq]

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[JoshuaPotter]

Peekaboo!

Still no Suggs contract? odd.

Back to cat videos gents.

[Skybox]

Peekaboo!

Still no Suggs contract? odd.

Back to cat videos gents.

I don't think it's imminent. I also don't think that's necessarily a problem. Relax - rookie extensions are far from automatic.

[drsd]

Back to cat videos gents.

Sold

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[The-Stallion70]

Read on Twitter

?t=af3XteIEdcV03feySJnyzw&s=19

He’s a RFA. Not worried about it. He’s a huge part of this teams success moving forward and will be matched.

Warning given. No more of this, please - Knightro.

[The-Stallion70]

The KCP acquisition appears to be serving two purposes: acquiring a very good player at a market rate deal who fits within the concept and also creating negotiating leverage with Suggs' agent.

KCP's numbers across the board are similar to Suggs and plays the same position, he was likely a target going into this off-season in part for this reason.

Suggs is a good player but with his injury history, ill be surprised if he is signed to a deal close Mcdaniels'. His deal should not approach what Quickley got because of Quickley's raw production mainly.

A deal comparable to what Avery Bradley got in his first extension is what you'd like to pay him ideally.

[VFX]

Read on Twitter

?t=af3XteIEdcV03feySJnyzw&s=19

He’s a RFA. Not worried about it. He’s a huge part of this teams success moving forward and will be matched.

Another low iq post you narrow minded sucker

Still hammering away at the same tired old arguments, good to see someone needs this website

LMAO

Chill out little boy. No need to be so hostile and wrong at the same time. KCP is a slight upgrade to Gary Harris. He's nowhere close to being "leverage" over Suggs. He can test the market for his value.

People here are going to be shocked at how absolutely MID Kentavious Caldwell Pope is when he's not playing next to Nikola Jokic, Jamal Murray, and MPJ.

Are you still butthurt from looking like a complete fool after making your stupid hot takes about Suggs in his rookie season? I guess I could understand why you would feel that way. Might as well triple down after he's proven you wrong last season. I get it. No need to take it out on me for being consistent.

[The-Stallion70]

He’s a RFA. Not worried about it. He’s a huge part of this teams success moving forward and will be matched.

Another low iq post you narrow minded sucker

Still hammering away at the same tired old arguments, good to see someone needs this website

LMAO

Chill out little boy. No need to be so hostile and wrong at the same time. KCP is a slight upgrade to Gary Harris. He's nowhere close to being "leverage" over Suggs. He can test the market for his value.

People here are going to be shocked at how absolutely MID Kentavious Caldwell Pope is when he's not playing next to Nikola Jokic, Jamal Murray, and MPJ.

Are you still butthurt from looking like a complete fool after making your stupid hot takes about Suggs in his rookie season? I guess I could understand why you would feel that way. Might as well triple down after he's proven you wrong last season. I get it. No need to take it out on me for being consistent.

Since Suggs is your clear hot button ill keep pressing it.

You can refuse to acknowledge it, thats fine. Truth hurts kiddo.

If you attempt to take an objective approach to it you will see that KCP's acquisition is creating leverage in the Suggs negotiation.

KCP has been good in each of his stops along his career regardless of circumstance. No reason to think that will stop now.

[VFX]

Another low iq post you narrow minded sucker

Still hammering away at the same tired old arguments, good to see someone needs this website

LMAO

Chill out little boy. No need to be so hostile and wrong at the same time. KCP is a slight upgrade to Gary Harris. He's nowhere close to being "leverage" over Suggs. He can test the market for his value.

People here are going to be shocked at how absolutely MID Kentavious Caldwell Pope is when he's not playing next to Nikola Jokic, Jamal Murray, and MPJ.

Are you still butthurt from looking like a complete fool after making your stupid hot takes about Suggs in his rookie season? I guess I could understand why you would feel that way. Might as well triple down after he's proven you wrong last season. I get it. No need to take it out on me for being consistent.

Since Suggs is your clear hot button ill keep pressing it.

You can refuse to acknowledge it, thats fine. Truth hurts kiddo.

If you attempt to take an objective approach to it you will see that KCP's acquisition is creating leverage in the Suggs negotiation.

KCP has been good in each of his stops along his career regardless of circumstance. No reason to think that will stop now.

What is the “hot button” topic I’m not addressing here?

Suggs believes he’s worth “max” like every other dude from the last 4-5 drafts that has played their way into potential allstar/first/second team accolades. Guys like Kuminga believe this too. Is Suggs wrong? Yes. He’s not worth max and Orlando can’t afford 3 max guys.

That still doesn’t mean he’s going to get anything close to it. The market has to dictate his price and Orlando is going to retain him. There isn’t an argument otherwise. IF he looks exponentially better at PG next to KCP, then he’s proving worth it. I’m not 1000% certain, but I don’t think any team is throwing a max deal at him.

Not really sure what your argument is. He’s a RFA and KCP was acquired to fill in for Gary Harris in Mosely’s rotation for the last 20 games of the season.

[Rainwater]

Man, if Suggs is out here waiting for a max contract he will be heading towards restricted free agency. He will have to prove he is more than a 3D player.

[pepe1991]

Man, if Suggs is out here waiting for a max contract he will be heading towards restricted free agency. He will have to prove he is more than a 3D player.

Even if he is, Magic, nor any other team can't really plan their future with 3 max contract players , if those 3 guys aren't some KD-Harden- Westbrook level. Because at some point, in near future, they will pretty much clog +70% of your salary cap. Within 2 years majority of your current players will either be resigned ( and you are in luxury tax at that point) or gone ( due money restrictions).

Suggs and max isn't just performances related, he only had 1 healthy nba season out of 3 he played.

And let's be real here: 11 ppg ,3,2 apg, 3,3 rpg.
Best season: 12 ppg , 3,1 rpg ,2,7 apg.

TO even consider this "max contract" is laughable.

"He plays good defense".Yes. In nba in 2024. Where you can argue he is "best guard defender in nba" but also consider fact that Mitchell, who is probably fringe top 20 player, still can drop 50 and 39 on him in playoffs because perimeter defense in 2024 is what it is. (Over)Paying guys for defense only really works for Cs.

I really don't see any case for him for max.

[KillMonger]

just weird......on the former bird app....the stigma about efficiency is like the only thing people reference with paolo negatively but man....i've been watching the NBA since T-mac's first year with us and on....seen some great players come into the league....then and now i don't remember potential star players ever having to be efficient in their early years....even the recent top picks like Ant Edwards.....don't remember there ever being any efficiency talk about him in media....why is everyone seemingly requiring only paolo to be super efficient?

[pepe1991]

just weird......on the former bird app....the stigma about efficiency is like the only thing people reference with paolo negatively but man....i've been watching the NBA since T-mac's first year with us and on....seen some great players come into the league....then and now i don't remember potential star players ever having to be efficient in their early years....even the recent top picks like Ant Edwards.....don't remember there ever being any efficiency talk about him in media....why is everyone seemingly requiring only paolo to be super efficient?

Paolo second season TS: 54,3%
Edwards second season: 56%
Victor rookie year: 56,5%
Blake Griffin "rookie"/sophmore year: 55%

It's not about being super efficient, he is below league's average. Well below actually (58% league's average).
But that's not all, average TS for PF is 59%.

Producing high volumen of bad shots isn't really winning basketball foruma, it just produces empty calories "stars".

When somebody takes 30% of usage to produce offense that is below league's level, let alone below level required for contending team, that simply isn't something that will add up to winning.
We know for fact Magic win basketball games despite their offense, yet he gets praised for offense. Offense that at times is indeed- offensive. Guy is allstar because he averages 22 ppg on 47 wins team. But if you dig deeper you figure Magic pretty much are incapable of winning games if their defense and bench aren't on very high level, in neither cases Banchero isn't integral part of.

So yea, if he wants to be that pillar of offense, he can't be 54% TS player and still take 30% of usage.

[drsd]

just weird......on the former bird app....the stigma about efficiency is like the only thing people reference with paolo negatively but man....i've been watching the NBA since T-mac's first year with us and on....seen some great players come into the league....then and now i don't remember potential star players ever having to be efficient in their early years....even the recent top picks like Ant Edwards.....don't remember there ever being any efficiency talk about him in media....why is everyone seemingly requiring only paolo to be super efficient?

Paolo second season TS: 54,3%
Edwards second season: 56%
Victor rookie year: 56,5%
Blake Griffin "rookie"/sophmore year: 55%

It's not about being super efficient, he is below league's average. Well below actually (58% league's average).
But that's not all, average TS for PF is 59%.

Producing high volumen of bad shots isn't really winning basketball foruma, it just produces empty calories "stars".

When somebody takes 30% of usage to produce offense that is below league's level, let alone below level required for contending team, that simply isn't something that will add up to winning.
We know for fact Magic win basketball games despite their offense, yet he gets praised for offense. Offense that at times is indeed- offensive. Guy is allstar because he averages 22 ppg on 47 wins team. But if you dig deeper you figure Magic pretty much are incapable of winning games if their defense and bench aren't on very high level, in neither cases Banchero isn't integral part of.

So yea, if he wants to be that pillar of offense, he can't be 54% TS player and still take 30% of usage.

Preach, brother: preach!


Orlando's offense was offensive last year. The team will not contend until the team makes more three-balls and both forwards improve their shot selection. Harping about the team needing play-making is not the point. The point is that this was a mistake prone team last year that made poor choices with over reliance on Hero-ball. (btw: a play-maker is just shifting one Hero-ball to another, solving nothing).


I am not a Debbiedowner here as I really think Caldwell-Pope replacing the void of Magic-guard shooting that was had last year will change everything.

[drsd]

Watch on YouTube

[KillMonger]

just weird......on the former bird app....the stigma about efficiency is like the only thing people reference with paolo negatively but man....i've been watching the NBA since T-mac's first year with us and on....seen some great players come into the league....then and now i don't remember potential star players ever having to be efficient in their early years....even the recent top picks like Ant Edwards.....don't remember there ever being any efficiency talk about him in media....why is everyone seemingly requiring only paolo to be super efficient?

Paolo second season TS: 54,3%
Edwards second season: 56%
Victor rookie year: 56,5%
Blake Griffin "rookie"/sophmore year: 55%

It's not about being super efficient, he is below league's average. Well below actually (58% league's average).
But that's not all, average TS for PF is 59%.

Producing high volumen of bad shots isn't really winning basketball foruma, it just produces empty calories "stars".

When somebody takes 30% of usage to produce offense that is below league's level, let alone below level required for contending team, that simply isn't something that will add up to winning.
We know for fact Magic win basketball games despite their offense, yet he gets praised for offense. Offense that at times is indeed- offensive. Guy is allstar because he averages 22 ppg on 47 wins team. But if you dig deeper you figure Magic pretty much are incapable of winning games if their defense and bench aren't on very high level, in neither cases Banchero isn't integral part of.

So yea, if he wants to be that pillar of offense, he can't be 54% TS player and still take 30% of usage.

This i understand, but i don't think any of this is required in year 2....i need him to get there at some point but i don't need him to be the paragon of efficiency in his second year in the league

[jezzerinho]

just weird......on the former bird app....the stigma about efficiency is like the only thing people reference with paolo negatively but man....i've been watching the NBA since T-mac's first year with us and on....seen some great players come into the league....then and now i don't remember potential star players ever having to be efficient in their early years....even the recent top picks like Ant Edwards.....don't remember there ever being any efficiency talk about him in media....why is everyone seemingly requiring only paolo to be super efficient?

Paolo second season TS: 54,3%
Edwards second season: 56%
Victor rookie year: 56,5%
Blake Griffin "rookie"/sophmore year: 55%

It's not about being super efficient, he is below league's average. Well below actually (58% league's average).
But that's not all, average TS for PF is 59%.

Producing high volumen of bad shots isn't really winning basketball foruma, it just produces empty calories "stars".

When somebody takes 30% of usage to produce offense that is below league's level, let alone below level required for contending team, that simply isn't something that will add up to winning.
We know for fact Magic win basketball games despite their offense, yet he gets praised for offense. Offense that at times is indeed- offensive. Guy is allstar because he averages 22 ppg on 47 wins team. But if you dig deeper you figure Magic pretty much are incapable of winning games if their defense and bench aren't on very high level, in neither cases Banchero isn't integral part of.

So yea, if he wants to be that pillar of offense, he can't be 54% TS player and still take 30% of usage.

If you're going to look at TS% you have to look at usage in combination. Of the few players that were almost 30% Usage in their sophomore year, most are below average in TS%.

Stands to reason. LeBron was same u3sage as Paolo in his 2nd year and only 55 TS%. Morant was 27% Usage and 54 TS%. Kobe was 27% Usage and 54 TS%. Donovan Mitchell 31% Usage and 54 TS%. Booker 29% Usage and 53 TS%. Even Durant 28% Usage and 57 TS%.

It's hard to be the entire offense AND be efficient. Especially on 0.500 or lower teams.

So I agree with the poster who's bemused why Paolo is seen as "less than" because he's not hyper efficient as a young player who the team leans heavily on. His numbers are bang in line with what some of the greats produced in the same circumstances.

[anothermagicfan]

just weird......on the former bird app....the stigma about efficiency is like the only thing people reference with paolo negatively but man....i've been watching the NBA since T-mac's first year with us and on....seen some great players come into the league....then and now i don't remember potential star players ever having to be efficient in their early years....even the recent top picks like Ant Edwards.....don't remember there ever being any efficiency talk about him in media....why is everyone seemingly requiring only paolo to be super efficient?

Paolo second season TS: 54,3%
Edwards second season: 56%
Victor rookie year: 56,5%
Blake Griffin "rookie"/sophmore year: 55%

It's not about being super efficient, he is below league's average. Well below actually (58% league's average).
But that's not all, average TS for PF is 59%.

Producing high volumen of bad shots isn't really winning basketball foruma, it just produces empty calories "stars".

When somebody takes 30% of usage to produce offense that is below league's level, let alone below level required for contending team, that simply isn't something that will add up to winning.
We know for fact Magic win basketball games despite their offense, yet he gets praised for offense. Offense that at times is indeed- offensive. Guy is allstar because he averages 22 ppg on 47 wins team. But if you dig deeper you figure Magic pretty much are incapable of winning games if their defense and bench aren't on very high level, in neither cases Banchero isn't integral part of.

So yea, if he wants to be that pillar of offense, he can't be 54% TS player and still take 30% of usage.

If you're going to look at TS% you have to look at usage in combination. Of the few players that were almost 30% Usage in their sophomore year, most are below average in TS%.

Stands to reason. LeBron was same u3sage as Paolo in his 2nd year and only 55 TS%. Morant was 27% Usage and 54 TS%. Kobe was 27% Usage and 54 TS%. Donovan Mitchell 31% Usage and 54 TS%. Booker 29% Usage and 53 TS%. Even Durant 28% Usage and 57 TS%.

It's hard to be the entire offense AND be efficient. Especially on 0.500 or lower teams.

So I agree with the poster who's bemused why Paolo is seen as "less than" because he's not hyper efficient as a young player who the team leans heavily on. His numbers are bang in line with what some of the greats produced in the same circumstances.

Almost all of the players compared here are guards. Guards typically shoot more outside shots and thus usually have lower percentages than a big. PB is a pf that likes his midrange shots and also takes some deep shots at a not so great percentage.

His 3 ball definitely hurts his percentage. The offense not being very good doesn't help a lot either. Raising his 3 ball percentage would help some and the team overall shooting the 3 better should spread the defense out a bit more and hopefully give PB more and better opportunities to get to the rim. A couple of small improvements with him and the team could really increase his tsp.

[drsd]

Almost all of the players compared here are guards. Guards typically shoot more outside shots and thus usually have lower percentages than a big. PB is a pf that likes his midrange shots and also takes some deep shots at a not so great percentage.

His 3 ball definitely hurts his percentage. The offense not being very good doesn't help a lot either. Raising his 3 ball percentage would help some and the team overall shooting the 3 better should spread the defense out a bit more and hopefully give PB more and better opportunities to get to the rim. A couple of small improvements with him and the team could really increase his tsp.

I agree with every word pixelated here. But Banchero's improvement comes from efficiency in general, not just improved shooing performance/percentages (only one part of efficiency).

The mid-range jumper is the least efficient play in the NBA. And beyond put-back dunks, the most efficient is the PnR.

So, rather than Banchero playing Heroball 10 set plays a night, the Magic must get to a situation were F-Wagner and Banchero take turns setting each other up in PnRs. Until that happens, this offense will continue to be offensive.

As an aside: having F-Wagner and Banchero setting PnRs really frees up Caldwell-Pope and Suggs on the perimeter for wide-open looks. Doing 10 more of these PnRs a game, Orlando's shooting lines will climb to mediocrity; which is Orlando needs.

p.s. I have read that Banchero has spent all summer working on back-to-the-basket postup moves. Those are still much more efficient plays than mid-range jumpers.


Today's cat theme:

[pepe1991]

just weird......on the former bird app....the stigma about efficiency is like the only thing people reference with paolo negatively but man....i've been watching the NBA since T-mac's first year with us and on....seen some great players come into the league....then and now i don't remember potential star players ever having to be efficient in their early years....even the recent top picks like Ant Edwards.....don't remember there ever being any efficiency talk about him in media....why is everyone seemingly requiring only paolo to be super efficient?

Paolo second season TS: 54,3%
Edwards second season: 56%
Victor rookie year: 56,5%
Blake Griffin "rookie"/sophmore year: 55%

It's not about being super efficient, he is below league's average. Well below actually (58% league's average).
But that's not all, average TS for PF is 59%.

Producing high volumen of bad shots isn't really winning basketball foruma, it just produces empty calories "stars".

When somebody takes 30% of usage to produce offense that is below league's level, let alone below level required for contending team, that simply isn't something that will add up to winning.
We know for fact Magic win basketball games despite their offense, yet he gets praised for offense. Offense that at times is indeed- offensive. Guy is allstar because he averages 22 ppg on 47 wins team. But if you dig deeper you figure Magic pretty much are incapable of winning games if their defense and bench aren't on very high level, in neither cases Banchero isn't integral part of.

So yea, if he wants to be that pillar of offense, he can't be 54% TS player and still take 30% of usage.

If you're going to look at TS% you have to look at usage in combination. Of the few players that were almost 30% Usage in their sophomore year, most are below average in TS%.

Stands to reason. LeBron was same u3sage as Paolo in his 2nd year and only 55 TS%. Morant was 27% Usage and 54 TS%. Kobe was 27% Usage and 54 TS%. Donovan Mitchell 31% Usage and 54 TS%. Booker 29% Usage and 53 TS%. Even Durant 28% Usage and 57 TS%.

It's hard to be the entire offense AND be efficient. Especially on 0.500 or lower teams.

So I agree with the poster who's bemused why Paolo is seen as "less than" because he's not hyper efficient as a young player who the team leans heavily on. His numbers are bang in line with what some of the greats produced in the same circumstances.

If you are going to bring 1997, 2005 seasons, than you need to add context of time as well.

1997-98 league's average TS = 52,4% - Kobe 54,8% = Kobe +2,4% over average
2005-06 league's average TS = 51,4%, Lebron 55,4% = Lebron + 4% over average
2008-09 league's average TS = 54,4% , Durant 57,7% = Durant +3,0% over average

So this guys were not comparable to Paolo at all, they were offensive plus.


Now ones below:
Banchero : 54,6% vs 58% avearge = 3,4% below average.
Mitchell : 53,6% vs 56% average = 2,4% below
Booker: 53,1% vs 55,2% average = 2,1% below
Morant: 53,7% vs 57,2% = 3,5% below

Adding more context:
average TS by position in 2023-24:
PG: 56,4%
SG: 57,1%
SF: 57,4%
PF: 58,8%
C: 61,9%

All people mentioned in their sophomore seasons were , by position - close to league's averages, all people mentioned in "negative" aspect are mainly 6'5 or smaller guards. Two of them are hardly 6'2 ( Mitchell, Morant). Paolo is 6'10. His position is by nature way more efficient than guard position is. Yet he is way more comparable, in terms of efficiency, with guards than he is with wings/forwards.

Even when you comapre him with some rookies, his numbers don't look impressive.
Brandon MIller 24% usage =55% TS.
Chet 21,6% usage = 65% TS
Victor 32,2% usage = 56% TS
Jaquez 19% usage= 57,4% TS
GG Jackson 24% usage = 55,4% TS

And this is nothing new for rookies, rookie Jalen Williams 60% TS last year, Keegan Murray 60% TS as rookie, Mathurin 56,6% as rookie.

I only want "real PG" because i'm simply not sold on idea that with Paolo running offense, offense will ever be good enough to be great teams on regular bases. He is neither all that efficient as scorer himself ( yet ? ) nor creative playmaker to get most out of supporting cast. I think that his on -off court numbers suggest Magic offense works pretty much exactly the same with and without him. Why? Less "gravity" but also less predictable for defense to know from who shots will come from. Imo, his mostly wet jumper in playoffs ( for 3 and especially from mid range) , in combination with Franz sucking changed perception in eyes of a fans. Playoffs are important, but just 7 games and mostly matchups driven, Paolo had very favorable matchup and took adventage of it, and now people think he is way better than he actually showed to be over 160 regular season games.
He simply won't shoot like he shot in playoffs for long straches, not just him but nobody. Guy shot over 50% from mid range ( because he was guarded by 6'4 person due Cavs roster construction and Allen's injury).
It's same Banchero who before playoffs shot 39% FG, 24% for 3 for whole April.

He is young, he will improve, he should improve. But it's simply impossible to justify +30% usage on 53-54% TS for years in modern basketball. It's just manufacturing of "star" over team & winning. Long term, it simply doesn't work ( MVP Westbrook as prime example? ).