Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($)

[JF5]

There are about 5-6 posters here that would eat just about any plate of **** this organization puts in front of them.

I'm looking long term wise. The team is in a transitional period between vets/young guys. With the currently core of guys this is a 2-3 year trajectory that people don't want to hear at this point but that's what it is. "Bottoming out" is something this team we''ve seen time and time again avoid to do/not wanting to do and at this point with the way draft odds are now is pretty much pointless.

I think with 2-3 moves of balancing the roster/player growth this team could be a lot better in 2-3 years. But that's just me I guess...

That’s the point, it doesn’t need to be in transition any more than it’s needed to be. Moving vets doesn’t equate to “bottoming out” simply due to lack of experience. There are plenty of nba teams, that have younger rosters, that finished as good or better than Orlando this season.

We’ve seen a number of teams turn around their rosters in a matter of 2-3 seasons. Weltman refuses to do it and would rather sit in the middle with the same exact core he inherited. This team has been in transition I’d say 2-3 years longer than it’s needed to be. And again, changing direction doesn’t mean you are banking absolutely everything in the draft. Is it a big part of it? Sure, but it’s not everything.

You can say we are 2-3 years away, but all I see are devaluing assets that they are now paying more for despite their refusal to sell high.

You aren’t looking at the team in the “long term” if you think keeping Hennigan’s core, for as long as possible, is pertinent to Orlando landing better future talent.

They're playing the waiting game while also trying to up the value of the players that they have for potential trades. If they did what everyone told them to do a few years ago and just trade Gordon/Vucevic/Fournier all together to start fresh. It would've been similar to a Harris/Oladipo situation where we traded these guys/assets in hindsight for A LOT LESS than equal value and were left with virtually nothing.

The rumors swirling at the time were that Vucevic who was placed on the block with the highest value at the time was only fetching offers of mid-first rounders at best. At least now you have offers for Gordon where he might be traded for pretty good/young players. That wasn't the case 2 years ago.

At this point for me looking at the vets we have now they all have pretty good value at this point. So I'm not worried about the returns of a trade being lopsided for those guys.

Also, the point of saying we've seen a "whole bunch of teams turn it around" has been through usually one or two reasons. One that team drafted well and got fringe potential talent and were able to build within to add a star piece OR big market teams that were able to clear cap space with decent role players to surround newly signed or traded for Superstar/Star caliber players.

And since obviously the Magic are not a big market what other option do that Magic have? Option one... Draft well and develop within and make smart trades that won't compromise the talent and also stunt the development of players who aren't ready to take that next step.

I get the frustration if you're a fan, but my goodness logic has to prevail here. Tanking is no longer as effective as it used to be/also was never the culture the Magic ever took part in. Plus, we're not a big Market so its not like this team will be able to lure in stars unless they're in near contendership.

Once again for myself I see what they're trying to do. Hopefully it works out for the fans sake.

[zaymon]

There are about 5-6 posters here that would eat just about any plate of **** this organization puts in front of them.

I'm looking long term wise. The team is in a transitional period between vets/young guys. With the currently core of guys this is a 2-3 year trajectory that people don't want to hear at this point but that's what it is. "Bottoming out" is something this team we''ve seen time and time again avoid to do/not wanting to do and at this point with the way draft odds are now is pretty much pointless.

I think with 2-3 moves of balancing the roster/player growth this team could be a lot better in 2-3 years. But that's just me I guess...

That’s the point, it doesn’t need to be in transition any more than it’s needed to be. Moving vets doesn’t equate to “bottoming out” simply due to lack of experience. There are plenty of nba teams, that have younger rosters, that finished as good or better than Orlando this season.

We’ve seen a number of teams turn around their rosters in a matter of 2-3 seasons. Weltman refuses to do it and would rather sit in the middle with the same exact core he inherited. This team has been in transition I’d say 2-3 years longer than it’s needed to be. And again, changing direction doesn’t mean you are banking absolutely everything in the draft. Is it a big part of it? Sure, but it’s not everything.

You can say we are 2-3 years away, but all I see are devaluing assets that they are now paying more for despite their refusal to sell high.

You aren’t looking at the team in the “long term” if you think keeping Hennigan’s core, for as long as possible, is pertinent to Orlando landing better future talent.

Sell high ? Thats the problem, our assets had all time low value last year after such extended period of losing. You could say Vucevic, Ross, Gordon value is all time high right now. They are signed on reasonable deals and showed they can produce in the post season. Fournier propably also after great regular season.

[JF5]

I'm looking long term wise. The team is in a transitional period between vets/young guys. With the currently core of guys this is a 2-3 year trajectory that people don't want to hear at this point but that's what it is. "Bottoming out" is something this team we''ve seen time and time again avoid to do/not wanting to do and at this point with the way draft odds are now is pretty much pointless.

I think with 2-3 moves of balancing the roster/player growth this team could be a lot better in 2-3 years. But that's just me I guess...

That’s the point, it doesn’t need to be in transition any more than it’s needed to be. Moving vets doesn’t equate to “bottoming out” simply due to lack of experience. There are plenty of nba teams, that have younger rosters, that finished as good or better than Orlando this season.

We’ve seen a number of teams turn around their rosters in a matter of 2-3 seasons. Weltman refuses to do it and would rather sit in the middle with the same exact core he inherited. This team has been in transition I’d say 2-3 years longer than it’s needed to be. And again, changing direction doesn’t mean you are banking absolutely everything in the draft. Is it a big part of it? Sure, but it’s not everything.

You can say we are 2-3 years away, but all I see are devaluing assets that they are now paying more for despite their refusal to sell high.

You aren’t looking at the team in the “long term” if you think keeping Hennigan’s core, for as long as possible, is pertinent to Orlando landing better future talent.

Sell high ? Thats the problem, our assets had all time low value last year after such extended period of losing. You could say Vucevic, Ross, Gordon value is all time high right now. They are signed on reasonable deals and showed they can produce in the post season. Fournier propably also after great regular season.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say? Vucevic is Borderline all-star... Aaron Gordon is a high end/highly valuable role player in today's leauge with space and pace/constant defensive switching. And Fournier is similar to AG in value when it comes to his scoring/shooting ability and solid defense. Plus, like you said with them coming off back to back post season appearances their value is clearly high than what it was at the end of the Hennigan era.

The right trades can be made for these guys IMO where the talent/returned value is not compromised.

[zaymon]

That’s the point, it doesn’t need to be in transition any more than it’s needed to be. Moving vets doesn’t equate to “bottoming out” simply due to lack of experience. There are plenty of nba teams, that have younger rosters, that finished as good or better than Orlando this season.

We’ve seen a number of teams turn around their rosters in a matter of 2-3 seasons. Weltman refuses to do it and would rather sit in the middle with the same exact core he inherited. This team has been in transition I’d say 2-3 years longer than it’s needed to be. And again, changing direction doesn’t mean you are banking absolutely everything in the draft. Is it a big part of it? Sure, but it’s not everything.

You can say we are 2-3 years away, but all I see are devaluing assets that they are now paying more for despite their refusal to sell high.

You aren’t looking at the team in the “long term” if you think keeping Hennigan’s core, for as long as possible, is pertinent to Orlando landing better future talent.

Sell high ? Thats the problem, our assets had all time low value last year after such extended period of losing. You could say Vucevic, Ross, Gordon value is all time high right now. They are signed on reasonable deals and showed they can produce in the post season. Fournier propably also after great regular season.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say? Vucevic is Borderline all-star... Aaron Gordon is a high end/highly valuable role player in today's leauge. And Fournier is similar to AG in value when it comes to his scoring/shooting ability and solid defense. Plus, like you said with them coming off back to back post season appearances their value is clearly high than what it was at the end of the Hennigan era.

I am trying to say that i dont agree with MagicMatic that we missed on " selling high" our veterans last year. Before the trade deadline we were losing a lot, both Vucevic and Ross were on expiring deals and never showed anything in the playoffs. Fournier was in the middle of his worst season. Where exactly is the selling high point at this moment ? If we want to trade our veterans we are in a much better place now than 1,5 years ago ( 2 y. in covid world)

[JF5]

Sell high ? Thats the problem, our assets had all time low value last year after such extended period of losing. You could say Vucevic, Ross, Gordon value is all time high right now. They are signed on reasonable deals and showed they can produce in the post season. Fournier propably also after great regular season.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say? Vucevic is Borderline all-star... Aaron Gordon is a high end/highly valuable role player in today's leauge. And Fournier is similar to AG in value when it comes to his scoring/shooting ability and solid defense. Plus, like you said with them coming off back to back post season appearances their value is clearly high than what it was at the end of the Hennigan era.

I am trying to say that i dont agree with MagicMatic that we missed on " selling high" our veterans last year. Before the trade deadline we were losing a lot, both Vucevic and Ross were on expiring deals and never showed anything in the playoffs. Fournier was in the middle of his worst season. Where exactly is the selling high point at this moment ? If we want to trade our veterans we are in a much better place now than 1,5 years ago ( 2 y. in covid world)

I see what you're saying I apologize for the misunderstanding

[cedric76]

I'm looking long term wise. The team is in a transitional period between vets/young guys. With the currently core of guys this is a 2-3 year trajectory that people don't want to hear at this point but that's what it is. "Bottoming out" is something this team we''ve seen time and time again avoid to do/not wanting to do and at this point with the way draft odds are now is pretty much pointless.

I think with 2-3 moves of balancing the roster/player growth this team could be a lot better in 2-3 years. But that's just me I guess...

That’s the point, it doesn’t need to be in transition any more than it’s needed to be. Moving vets doesn’t equate to “bottoming out” simply due to lack of experience. There are plenty of nba teams, that have younger rosters, that finished as good or better than Orlando this season.

We’ve seen a number of teams turn around their rosters in a matter of 2-3 seasons. Weltman refuses to do it and would rather sit in the middle with the same exact core he inherited. This team has been in transition I’d say 2-3 years longer than it’s needed to be. And again, changing direction doesn’t mean you are banking absolutely everything in the draft. Is it a big part of it? Sure, but it’s not everything.

You can say we are 2-3 years away, but all I see are devaluing assets that they are now paying more for despite their refusal to sell high.

You aren’t looking at the team in the “long term” if you think keeping Hennigan’s core, for as long as possible, is pertinent to Orlando landing better future talent.

They're playing the waiting game while also trying to up the value of the players that they have for potential trades. If they did what everyone told them to do a few years ago and just trade Gordon/Vucevic/Fournier all together to start fresh. It would've been similar to a Harris/Oladipo situation where we traded these guys/assets in hindsight for A LOT LESS than equal value and were left with virtually nothing.

The rumors swirling at the time were that Vucevic who was placed on the block with the highest value at the time was only fetching offers of mid-first rounders at best. At least now you have offers for Gordon where he might be traded for pretty good/young players. That wasn't the case 2 years ago.

At this point for me looking at the vets we have now they all have pretty good value at this point. So I'm not worried about the returns of a trade being lopsided for those guys.

Also, the point of saying we've seen a "whole bunch of teams turn it around" has been through usually one or two reasons. One that team drafted well and got fringe potential talent and were able to build within to add a star piece OR big market teams that were able to clear cap space with decent role players to surround newly signed or traded for Superstar/Star caliber players.

And since obviously the Magic are not a big market what other option do that Magic have? Option one... Draft well and develop within and make smart trades that won't compromise the talent and also stunt the development of players who aren't ready to take that next step.

I get the frustration if you're a fan, but my goodness logic has to prevail here. Tanking is no longer as effective as it used to be/also was never the culture the Magic ever took part in. Plus, we're not a big Market so its not like this team will be able to lure in stars unless they're in near contendership.

Once again for myself I see what they're trying to do. Hopefully it works out for the fans sake.

Just look at the teams left in playoff, it s just tell you how useful is tanking.

Big markets always have an edge

[TheGlyde]

Maybe it’s best we don’t trade our Henny vets. A) I don’t trust WeltHam to not screw it up and B) I don’t think they have as much value as people think on here.

Fournier (if he opts in) isn’t worth much as a 17 million dollar shooting specialist. Maybe you get a matching expiring back and a 2nd?

Gordon is worth probably at best an expiri and mid first rounder.

Vucevic is probably a neutral contract.

Ross is probably negative but is locked down has a skill set teams covet. Could see his value going from THJ on the Knicks to THJ on the Mavs once he’s dealt to a good team.

DJ is expiring but obviously isn’t a hot commodity on the market.

I hope I’m wrong but I really don’t see very many positive value packages coming back to us unless we use young guys/picks with the vets. Let alone the #1 pick in the draft lol.

I actually think AG has more value (particularly for small market teams) than some here think. In the current climate where revenue sharing could be on shaky ground, crowds may not be possible for at least part of next season, you need eyes on your games, butts in seats when you can have them, and to sell merchandise.

Plenty of people have pulled AG's stats to bits, but the guy has a profile and a mainstream following.

1.2million Insta followers, as much as the official Orlando Magic team page. His slam dunk contest pedigree and flashy play make hardcores here puke but he resonates with the casual fan. He has broken into the China market with his own shoe, and could have value to another small market team trying to get money out of casual fans. As a new player, they might turn on the game or go to the arena to see AG blow a few turnarounds, get an alley oop dunk, and go home happy thinking he might be a star one day.

I guarantee there are some small market GMs who will take the on court flaws in return for ticket sales and butts in seats and see past the flaws that have been evident year in year out for us.

For Evan, you look to flip him for youth. You want the exact kind of trade that got us Evan in the first place, we sent out Afflalo after he had reached his physical peak, and flipped him for someone younger who turned out to be better.

Do the same for Evan.

As much as some people think Evan opting out would be addition by subtraction I think in the real world because we are capped out it is important we don't let our big salaries walk for nothing. Unless we sync contracts to actually get cap space at some point, we have nothing other than the MLE to replace them with, so you want either a less talented expiring and a pick, or a package of younger players that haven't yet had an opportunity.

The bad thing about always trying to keep big salaries around is we're always up against the luxury tax threshold. We couldn't sign players like Duncan Robinson or Nunn if we wanted to, because we have to keep players around. If we truly wanted to use the Heat mold we'd get rid of selfish players and retain team guys that play a role.

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Sure we could. Miami's payroll for this season was almost identical to ours.

You can always sign players for the minimum which is what Robinson and Nunn were signed for by Miami. It's just a matter of finding those kind of guys, just like we did with Gary Clark and signed him for the minimum for the rest of the season.

Maybe it’s best we don’t trade our Henny vets. A) I don’t trust WeltHam to not screw it up and B) I don’t think they have as much value as people think on here.

Fournier (if he opts in) isn’t worth much as a 17 million dollar shooting specialist. Maybe you get a matching expiring back and a 2nd?

Gordon is worth probably at best an expiri and mid first rounder.

Vucevic is probably a neutral contract.

Ross is probably negative but is locked down has a skill set teams covet. Could see his value going from THJ on the Knicks to THJ on the Mavs once he’s dealt to a good team.

DJ is expiring but obviously isn’t a hot commodity on the market.

I hope I’m wrong but I really don’t see very many positive value packages coming back to us unless we use young guys/picks with the vets. Let alone the #1 pick in the draft lol.

I actually think AG has more value (particularly for small market teams) than some here think. In the current climate where revenue sharing could be on shaky ground, crowds may not be possible for at least part of next season, you need eyes on your games, butts in seats when you can have them, and to sell merchandise.

Plenty of people have pulled AG's stats to bits, but the guy has a profile and a mainstream following.

1.2million Insta followers, as much as the official Orlando Magic team page. His slam dunk contest pedigree and flashy play make hardcores here puke but he resonates with the casual fan. He has broken into the China market with his own shoe, and could have value to another small market team trying to get money out of casual fans. As a new player, they might turn on the game or go to the arena to see AG blow a few turnarounds, get an alley oop dunk, and go home happy thinking he might be a star one day.

I guarantee there are some small market GMs who will take the on court flaws in return for ticket sales and butts in seats and see past the flaws that have been evident year in year out for us.

You don't have to sell me on this, I hope we keep him. I just thought his value was at a low considering he had a rough year shooting. He was trending toward league average from 3 last season then looked like Westbrook this season. But for a team with such little popularity league wide, AG is our only person with any social media following, I feel like that is somewhat useful. I also think there's something of value for the type of build that can guard the LeBron's + Kawhi's of the league, just isn't quite as valuable to a team like ours who isn't at that level.

For Evan, you look to flip him for youth. You want the exact kind of trade that got us Evan in the first place, we sent out Afflalo after he had reached his physical peak, and flipped him for someone younger who turned out to be better.

Completely agree. Thought that was a good movie by Henny.

As much as some people think Evan opting out would be addition by subtraction I think in the real world because we are capped out it is important we don't let our big salaries walk for nothing. Unless we sync contracts to actually get cap space at some point, we have nothing other than the MLE to replace them with, so you want either a less talented expiring and a pick, or a package of younger players that haven't yet had an opportunity.

Not sure if you're advocating for re-signing him or just for him to opt-in. I think re-signing him to another long term deal keeps us going down this slippery slope. He isn't going to have a career year shooting for every season, ya know? Vuc had his lone all star year and got his 100 million dollar deal and his efficiency took a dive this year (not that he stunk). It'd be predictable for that to happen to Fournier or any other vets on this team with career years lining up with contract years.

I can also understand why they would do it, even though I never would. Like you said either way we are capped. But at some point you can't just keep the same team for a decade and just re-signing them with hopes Kawhi or Giannis will sign out of sympathy (not saying that you're suggesting that, just seems like the FO's hail mary plan imo).

Ideally he opts in and we move him after his solid year in 2019-20. His value isn't great but it's unlikely to get any higher than it is now.

If the Magic are in a playoff spot at the trade deadline and the Magic opt to ride him to the playoffs on his expiring (like they did with Vuc), then at that point I'd hope for a sign and trade... I really don't want Fournier on the roster on a new contract in 2021-22...

If the choice was re-sign after 2020-21 or let him walk for nothing... Well that's a crappy choice and as a franchise you shouldn't put yourself in that position, but if we are in that spot I would probably let him go, which I know contradicts what I said previously, but for me, the only reason to keep Fournier any longer is to flip him for a different asset. He has taken this team as far as he can.

I don't hate the guy, he tries, for the most part, but on this roster hes asked to do more than his skillset allows, and he has been here so long that he won't take a backseat to younger players, even if they were proving to be more effective next season, so it's just time to move on.

[zaymon]

Ideally he opts in and we move him after his solid year in 2019-20. His value isn't great but it's unlikely to get any higher than it is now.

If the Magic are in a playoff spot at the trade deadline and the Magic opt to ride him to the playoffs on his expiring (like they did with Vuc), then at that point I'd hope for a sign and trade... I really don't want Fournier on the roster on a new contract in 2021-22...

If the choice was re-sign after 2020-21 or let him walk for nothing... Well that's a crappy choice and as a franchise you shouldn't put yourself in that position, but if we are in that spot I would probably let him go, which I know contradicts what I said previously, but for me, the only reason to keep Fournier any longer is to flip him for a different asset. He has taken this team as far as he can.

I don't hate the guy, he tries, for the most part, but on this roster hes asked to do more than his skillset allows, and he has been here so long that he won't take a backseat to younger players, even if they were proving to be more effective next season, so it's just time to move on.

Who you replace Fournier with and what is the reasoning for that move?

[Bensational]

Ideally he opts in and we move him after his solid year in 2019-20. His value isn't great but it's unlikely to get any higher than it is now.

If the Magic are in a playoff spot at the trade deadline and the Magic opt to ride him to the playoffs on his expiring (like they did with Vuc), then at that point I'd hope for a sign and trade... I really don't want Fournier on the roster on a new contract in 2021-22...

If the choice was re-sign after 2020-21 or let him walk for nothing... Well that's a crappy choice and as a franchise you shouldn't put yourself in that position, but if we are in that spot I would probably let him go, which I know contradicts what I said previously, but for me, the only reason to keep Fournier any longer is to flip him for a different asset. He has taken this team as far as he can.

I don't hate the guy, he tries, for the most part, but on this roster hes asked to do more than his skillset allows, and he has been here so long that he won't take a backseat to younger players, even if they were proving to be more effective next season, so it's just time to move on.

Who you replace Fournier with and what is the reasoning for that move?

Iwundu replaced him in the games Fournier missed this season and we did pretty well out of it. So we can replace him with an in house option, or chase an MLE guy like TLC.

Reasons would be:

- improved play
- better value
- creating room/forcing Fultz into more of a lead role

[zaymon]

Ideally he opts in and we move him after his solid year in 2019-20. His value isn't great but it's unlikely to get any higher than it is now.

If the Magic are in a playoff spot at the trade deadline and the Magic opt to ride him to the playoffs on his expiring (like they did with Vuc), then at that point I'd hope for a sign and trade... I really don't want Fournier on the roster on a new contract in 2021-22...

If the choice was re-sign after 2020-21 or let him walk for nothing... Well that's a crappy choice and as a franchise you shouldn't put yourself in that position, but if we are in that spot I would probably let him go, which I know contradicts what I said previously, but for me, the only reason to keep Fournier any longer is to flip him for a different asset. He has taken this team as far as he can.

I don't hate the guy, he tries, for the most part, but on this roster hes asked to do more than his skillset allows, and he has been here so long that he won't take a backseat to younger players, even if they were proving to be more effective next season, so it's just time to move on.

Who you replace Fournier with and what is the reasoning for that move?

Iwundu replaced him in the games Fournier missed this season and we did pretty well out of it. So we can replace him with an in house option, or chase an MLE guy like TLC.

Reasons would be:

- improved play
- better value
- creating room/forcing Fultz into more of a lead role

No, I mean a realistic scenario. Iwundu barely made our rotation against Bucks and his fg% was 29,1 %. TLC is average reserve, he has no business starting. Both options you presented would result in:

worse play (you can dislike Fournier but he is much better player than both Iwundu and TLC)
worse value (for me TLC on MLE is worse than Fournier at 17M)
way worse situation for Fultz where defense can collapse on him every possesion.

[Gomagic44]

Rebuild. I can't watch anymore of hennys guys.

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[Xatticus]

Who you replace Fournier with and what is the reasoning for that move?

Iwundu replaced him in the games Fournier missed this season and we did pretty well out of it. So we can replace him with an in house option, or chase an MLE guy like TLC.

Reasons would be:

- improved play
- better value
- creating room/forcing Fultz into more of a lead role

No, I mean a realistic scenario. Iwundu barely made our rotation against Bucks and his fg% was 29,1 %. TLC is average reserve, he has no business starting. Both options you presented would result in:

worse play (you can dislike Fournier but he is much better player than both Iwundu and TLC)
worse value (for me TLC on MLE is worse than Fournier at 17M)
way worse situation for Fultz where defense can collapse on him every possesion.

Is he though? I think Fournier would make for a fine tank commander. If you aspire to win, I think his role would be highly situational.

Consider... what does he do better than Korver? Korver is a better shooter, defender, and rebounder. Korver has played on a lot of good teams and never been paid a salary close to what Fournier is getting on his current deal.

Fournier is a polished turd. You can give someone unrestricted access to your offense and pay them a bunch of money, but that doesn't make them good. Okay... Hennigan screwed up on that deal, but we've had ample time to figure it out and work towards fixing the problem. We're four full years into that deal and still trying to shoehorn him into a high-usage role on 30+ minutes per night. We're still watching him get abused at the defensive end routinely. He's a 'shooting guard' because he can't defend anyone his own height. Would we actually lose anything if his minutes were swallowed up by MCW, Iwundu, and Ennis? I really don't think so.

[UnFadeable21]

I personally think it’s time for a full on rebuild for the Magic and wait for the 2021 season when Isaac is back and healthy. Would you be willing to move Aaron Gordon to the Minnesota Timberwolves for their 17th pick, James Johnson, and Jacob Evans.

That would give the Magic two first round picks: the 15th and 17th to either move into the top 10 or pick two rookies where draft experts say the middle is where all the depth players and strength of the draft. Johnson would be an expiring contract that frees up 16 million for the 2021 free agency class that has a lot of talent. Jeremy Evans is a 1st round shooting guard from the Warriors system. Cheap flyer for a season and see what he has.

Orlando barely made the playoffs and I would rather stack up cap room and draft picks to wait to build a real team with the right building blocks and potential for the 2021-22 season.

What say you: Aaron Gordon to Minnesota for the 17th pick, Expiring James Johnson 16 million, and former 1st round pick SG Jacob Evans?

[UnFadeable21]

From the Athletic Article: his quote about a rebuild:

What do you see as the biggest roster priorities heading into next season?

I don’t look at it that way. I think that we have a very balanced roster. We have a lot of two-way players. Our team fits. Our players complement one another. But obviously, we always want to get better and upgrade where we can. So we’ll just see what’s available.

Nothing is ever off the table with us, and other teams around the league know that. They know that we’re always willing to have any conversation. But that being said, I don’t think we approach this offseason with a kind of single priority we need to accomplish. We’ve just got to get better.


Could you envision beginning any sort of full-on rebuild at this stage?

Well, like I always say, nothing is ever off the table. I think that for us to do our jobs well we have to consider every option, and we have to look at every potential path that’s laid out in front of us.

Some paths are fraught with more peril than others. And there’s taking a calculated risk and then there are just taking risks.

Every action that you precipitate will have a counteraction. It’s our job to explore all those. Nothing is ever off the table. But like I said, right now, I think that our team is headed in the right direction. I think that we acquitted ourselves well in the bubble, and we’ll probably be saying for the whole offseason, “If only we had our full roster at our disposal for the playoffs, who knows what would have happened?”

But that’s the reality of the NBA. We have to deal with the aftermath of the injuries and try to assess what we could have done if we were healthy.


About a full-on rebuild, are you saying that there’s no guarantee that it would be successful? Or are you saying that it’s too much risk to take on and to accept?

I’m not saying what’s too much or not enough. I’m just saying that you have to recognize where there is risk.

[Xatticus]

I personally think it’s time for a full on rebuild for the Magic and wait for the 2021 season when Isaac is back and healthy. Would you be willing to move Aaron Gordon to the Minnesota Timberwolves for their 17th pick, James Johnson, and Jacob Evans.

That would give the Magic two first round picks: the 15th and 17th to either move into the top 10 or pick two rookies where draft experts say the middle is where all the depth players and strength of the draft. Johnson would be an expiring contract that frees up 16 million for the 2021 free agency class that has a lot of talent. Jeremy Evans is a 1st round shooting guard from the Warriors system. Cheap flyer for a season and see what he has.

Orlando barely made the playoffs and I would rather stack up cap room and draft picks to wait to build a real team with the right building blocks and potential for the 2021-22 season.

What say you: Aaron Gordon to Minnesota for the 17th pick, Expiring James Johnson 16 million, and former 1st round pick SG Jacob Evans?

We've already had this discussion around here with Culver in place of Evans. Opinions were mixed. Nobody is going to take that deal with Evans offered instead. I don't think even Gordon's biggest detractors would be amenable to dumping his contract for the 17th pick and his detractors tend to be detractors of Culver as well, due to the same deficiency (the shot isn't there).

Regardless, this front office isn't going to tear it down to tank. They know that they would just be setting the table for the next administration. They've shown no inclination to take even a modest step backwards. They'd rather use roster spots on Ennis, Clark, MCW, or Birch, as opposed to some sort of developmental type. Our two-way contracts were used on a 26-year-old Amile Jefferson and a 30-year-old Josh Magette as break glass in case of emergency scenarios. Their plan is to fight for the eighth seed, then watch a miracle unfold when a healthy 42-win roster manages to dispatch everyone on their path to the title. I'm not saying they wouldn't trade Gordon, but they aren't going to sacrifice a shot at the eighth seed for the 17th pick in the draft. There is zero chance that happens.

[zaymon]

Iwundu replaced him in the games Fournier missed this season and we did pretty well out of it. So we can replace him with an in house option, or chase an MLE guy like TLC.

Reasons would be:

- improved play
- better value
- creating room/forcing Fultz into more of a lead role

No, I mean a realistic scenario. Iwundu barely made our rotation against Bucks and his fg% was 29,1 %. TLC is average reserve, he has no business starting. Both options you presented would result in:

worse play (you can dislike Fournier but he is much better player than both Iwundu and TLC)
worse value (for me TLC on MLE is worse than Fournier at 17M)
way worse situation for Fultz where defense can collapse on him every possesion.

Is he though? I think Fournier would make for a fine tank commander. If you aspire to win, I think his role would be highly situational.

Consider... what does he do better than Korver? Korver is a better shooter, defender, and rebounder. Korver has played on a lot of good teams and never been paid a salary close to what Fournier is getting on his current deal.

Fournier is a polished turd. You can give someone unrestricted access to your offense and pay them a bunch of money, but that doesn't make them good. Okay... Hennigan screwed up on that deal, but we've had ample time to figure it out and work towards fixing the problem. We're four full years into that deal and still trying to shoehorn him into a high-usage role on 30+ minutes per night. We're still watching him get abused at the defensive end routinely. He's a 'shooting guard' because he can't defend anyone his own height. Would we actually lose anything if his minutes were swallowed up by MCW, Iwundu, and Ennis? I really don't think so.

Well you lost me on Korver vs Fournier comparison.

Korver is 38 percentile as pnr ball handler which makes 5% of his offense.
Fournier is in 77 percentile as a pnr ball handler which makes 32% of his offense. (in playoffs he struggled, still in 50 percentile)
Fournier is above average ball handler even on a bad spaced team, while Korver is not a ball handler at all.

Korver is 95 percentile as a spot up shooter, 24% of his offense(96 percentile in playoffs)
Fournier 84 percentile as a spot up shooter, 17% of his offense (99 percentile in playoffs !!!)
Both are great spot up shooters, Fournier was elite in that limited role this year vs bucks

Korver 69 percentile shooting off screen, 20% of his offense
Fournier 77 percentile shooting off screen, 13% of his offense
Both good off screen shooters, Korver better historically.

They are both great pull up shooters, Korver more accurate (53efg%) but on very low volume(1.3 attempts), Fournier still elite 49,7 efg% and on quite high attempts (5.7).

Basically both are good to great spot up shooters. There similarities mainly end. Korver creates his shot off movement, while Fournier is right now forced to score as a pnr ball handler and pull up shooter. Things he improved on dramatically this year. Defenisively Korver is guarding almost exclusively opponents worst options while Fournier had second toughest defensive assingments on our team only behind MCW

Fournier and Augustin were our only capable pick and roll ball handlers this year. I dont know why you mention MCW, Iwundu and Ennis, i hope you are not trolling.

[VFX]

I'm looking long term wise. The team is in a transitional period between vets/young guys. With the currently core of guys this is a 2-3 year trajectory that people don't want to hear at this point but that's what it is. "Bottoming out" is something this team we''ve seen time and time again avoid to do/not wanting to do and at this point with the way draft odds are now is pretty much pointless.

I think with 2-3 moves of balancing the roster/player growth this team could be a lot better in 2-3 years. But that's just me I guess...

That’s the point, it doesn’t need to be in transition any more than it’s needed to be. Moving vets doesn’t equate to “bottoming out” simply due to lack of experience. There are plenty of nba teams, that have younger rosters, that finished as good or better than Orlando this season.

We’ve seen a number of teams turn around their rosters in a matter of 2-3 seasons. Weltman refuses to do it and would rather sit in the middle with the same exact core he inherited. This team has been in transition I’d say 2-3 years longer than it’s needed to be. And again, changing direction doesn’t mean you are banking absolutely everything in the draft. Is it a big part of it? Sure, but it’s not everything.

You can say we are 2-3 years away, but all I see are devaluing assets that they are now paying more for despite their refusal to sell high.

You aren’t looking at the team in the “long term” if you think keeping Hennigan’s core, for as long as possible, is pertinent to Orlando landing better future talent.

They're playing the waiting game while also trying to up the value of the players that they have for potential trades. If they did what everyone told them to do a few years ago and just trade Gordon/Vucevic/Fournier all together to start fresh. It would've been similar to a Harris/Oladipo situation where we traded these guys/assets in hindsight for A LOT LESS than equal value and were left with virtually nothing.

This is what doesn’t make sense. Vuc was playing well last season (conveniently) before he was handed 4/$100. They could have “sold high” on him earlier instead of resigning him to that deal. It made him a less valued asset because he’s now on a much bigger contract than he was. There is no “upping his value” now, because he’s squarely in his prime on a fat contract. That’s only one example. The same will happen for Fournier, his market shrinks when he inks a larger deal for declining production. Get it?

And yes the Oladipo and Harris deals were bad trades. Those were deals coming off their rookie contracts to avoid paying them real money. The return was BAD, but those deals aren’t what we are talking about for players going into their 8th/9th nba season. Bad comparison.


The rumors swirling at the time were that Vucevic who was placed on the block with the highest value at the time was only fetching offers of mid-first rounders at best. At least now you have offers for Gordon where he might be traded for pretty good/young players. That wasn't the case 2 years ago.

At this point for me looking at the vets we have now they all have pretty good value at this point. So I'm not worried about the returns of a trade being lopsided for those guys.

Of course not. There is no potential there. The return on a trade for those players is more about the identity/direction of the team and less about the players themselves. Their value is equal to what WE gave them and are worth to US. That’s the point.

Also, the point of saying we've seen a "whole bunch of teams turn it around" has been through usually one or two reasons. One that team drafted well and got fringe potential talent and were able to build within to add a star piece OR big market teams that were able to clear cap space with decent role players to surround newly signed or traded for Superstar/Star caliber players.

And since obviously the Magic are not a big market what other option do that Magic have? Option one... Draft well and develop within and make smart trades that won't compromise the talent and also stunt the development of players who aren't ready to take that next step.

Ok, they haven’t drafted well at all. That’s point one. The problem with this logic is that you ascribe to the idea that a rebuild takes 5 years. It doesn’t. I’m tired of hearing about this “stunting” of growth and development, simply because we played a handful of playoff games as some kind of benchmark of youth success. This fear of losing a handful of more games due to making a change, while possibly increasing our odds for landing real talent, is hilarious.

I get the frustration if you're a fan, but my goodness logic has to prevail here. Tanking is no longer as effective as it used to be/also was never the culture the Magic ever took part in. Plus, we're not a big Market so its not like this team will be able to lure in stars unless they're in near contendership.

Where did I mention tanking? I’m saying to move on from these mainstays on the Hennigan core. You’re proving my point by saying we aren’t a big market and they won’t tank. Option 3 is moving on from these guys and letting the chips fall where they may. We aren’t contending and we aren’t tanking. We are prolonging the inevitable and handing out huge contracts to keep the status quo, while fielding one of the most expensive rosters to do so. If you want to eat another plate of this next season - go for it. I won’t be.

Once again for myself I see what they're trying to do. Hopefully it works out for the fans sake.

Lets be very clear here. There are two types of teams in the NBA: contenders and builders. Everything else in the middle is nonsense. Orlando is neither of those things and is doing neither effectively. Making the playoffs in the East doesn’t remotely put them in the “contending” category. If you are OK with the FO sitting directly in the middle of that equation, then there is nothing left to say.

[j-ragg]

Making the playoffs in the East doesn’t remotely put them in the “contending” category.

It's like the one time I wish we were in the western conference. Us missing the playoffs instead of making it as a sympathy seed would've surely meant we wouldn't be the league's most exemplary treadmill. At least I'd like to think so.

[UnFadeable21]

I personally think it’s time for a full on rebuild for the Magic and wait for the 2021 season when Isaac is back and healthy. Would you be willing to move Aaron Gordon to the Minnesota Timberwolves for their 17th pick, James Johnson, and Jacob Evans.

That would give the Magic two first round picks: the 15th and 17th to either move into the top 10 or pick two rookies where draft experts say the middle is where all the depth players and strength of the draft. Johnson would be an expiring contract that frees up 16 million for the 2021 free agency class that has a lot of talent. Jeremy Evans is a 1st round shooting guard from the Warriors system. Cheap flyer for a season and see what he has.

Orlando barely made the playoffs and I would rather stack up cap room and draft picks to wait to build a real team with the right building blocks and potential for the 2021-22 season.

What say you: Aaron Gordon to Minnesota for the 17th pick, Expiring James Johnson 16 million, and former 1st round pick SG Jacob Evans?

We've already had this discussion around here with Culver in place of Evans. Opinions were mixed. Nobody is going to take that deal with Evans offered instead. I don't think even Gordon's biggest detractors would be amenable to dumping his contract for the 17th pick and his detractors tend to be detractors of Culver as well, due to the same deficiency (the shot isn't there).

Regardless, this front office isn't going to tear it down to tank. They know that they would just be setting the table for the next administration. They've shown no inclination to take even a modest step backwards. They'd rather use roster spots on Ennis, Clark, MCW, or Birch, as opposed to some sort of developmental type. Our two-way contracts were used on a 26-year-old Amile Jefferson and a 30-year-old Josh Magette as break glass in case of emergency scenarios. Their plan is to fight for the eighth seed, then watch a miracle unfold when a healthy 42-win roster manages to dispatch everyone on their path to the title. I'm not saying they wouldn't trade Gordon, but they aren't going to sacrifice a shot at the eighth seed for the 17th pick in the draft. There is zero chance that happens.

I saw J-ragg write that Gordon is probably worth a mid round pick and an expiring contract.

[JF5]

Lets be very clear here. There are two types of teams in the NBA: contenders and builders. Everything else in the middle is nonsense. Orlando is neither of those things and is doing neither effectively. Making the playoffs in the East doesn’t remotely put them in the “contending” category. If you are OK with the FO sitting directly in the middle of that equation, then there is nothing left to say.

Again, in today's NBA where the incentive to tank has been taken away. what are the alternatives for the team like the Magic stuck in the middle?

Because if you say tear it all down and still end up with 4th, 5th, 6th picks during a 4-5 year rebuild plan similar to the Hennigan era. Was it really all worth it?