Magic Extend Jeff Weltman and John Hammond's Contracts Through the 2025-2026 Season

[zaymon]

Like this.

Fultz got his contract before he got hurt. I am not the biggest MF fan just like you, but the deal was acceptable at the time of signing. Right now its reserve money, it didnt hinder us so far at all.
Isaac got his contract after injury, they knew what they were doing. Its always darkest before the dawn. Right now its bad contract but if he is healthy and running for dpoy next year its a steal. People critized GSW for extending Curry when he had ankle problems.

That’s some very lenient benefit of the doubt to treat that Isaac contract like the potential gold of a Steph Curry contract instead of it being Grant Hill or John Wall 2.0 (much cheaper obviously but ultimately worthless due to lack of court time and ability to return to prior form).

We’ve got plenty of flexibility where we are at the moment though, so I’m not overly worried. What I am worried about is that nobody can point to the roster and say they’ve made an obvious core franchise addition in their 5 year tenure, other than Franz.

With what they inherited, the best they added was a coach and cheap backup depth pieces like MCW, Birch and Ennis. None of their youth pieces confidently look like core franchise talent at these early stages.

That said, I’m happy with the results of the start of this rebuild. Suggs + Franz I have confidence in. I like WCJ as an affordable role player. I like the idea of Cole as a 6th man scoring spark plug. But even those pieces need some serious talent injection on the roster to help get this team on to a championship track.

I dont compare Isaac to Curry but i just wanted to point out perception around contract can quickly change.
So far we had 4 high draft picks during Weltman tenure. We almost certainly hit Wagner, Isaac was also a hit until he got hurt, Suggs is a question mark, but i like him and Bamba is a miss. For me its not a bad record, especially given we are in the middle of tanking run. Golden State needed 3 young core pieces, Bucks needed only one, Phoenix needed 2-3 depending how you treat Ayton, Bulls needed none (or one if you count Butler which they traded).
If we count Wagner a hit, its possible we need only one more hit. If Isaac is healthy we can build dominant defensive team even without any future draft messiah. Try to think about us in that perspective ( of course nothing is guaranteed)

[Bergmaniac]

Pepe is absolutely correct. Fultz didn't have a stellar year or anything close to it by any reasonable measure. He was somewhere between 5th and 7th most impactful player on a team which had a 33-40 record and wouldn't have been anywhere near the playoffs in most years. And in the halfcourt he's nowhere near elite at getting to the basket. He stood out only because ever since Dipo left this team has really lacked this type of players.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultzs-breakout-season-brings-hope-the-magic-have-found-their-point-guard-for-the-future/

His assists create the most points for the Magic per game (13.7), which essentially means his passes have the most value on the team. He's able to squeeze passes through tight windows in the post to make life easier for Nikola Vucevic, or drive and kick it to an open Evan Fournier on the wing for three

You can tell that he sometimes catches his teammates -- as well as the defense -- off guard with the passes he makes, displaying how gifted of a playmaker he is, and can become. None of this should be surprising, though, given that Fultz was heralded as a player who could create in a lot of ways, not just for himself but for his teammates.

At his best this season, Fultz is attacking the rim at full speed, using his bullish strength and quickness to finish drives at a 49 percent clip, which ranks in the top 20 in the league among point guards.

This article has so many Olympic level stretches to defend its preposterous claim that a number 1 pick who is averaging 12/5 at a dreadful efficiency in his third season while his team was well below .500 was not a bust. Every main ballhandler in the league creates the most points on his team, that's his job. And 13.7 points created from assists was one of the lowest averages in the league among starting PGs that season, well behind Elfrid Payton, for example.

Top 20 in the league among point guards at finishing on drives is really not that special, there are only 30 teams after all. He's a very good finisher at the rim, I'd give him that, but not elite. And getting there is nowhere near as easy for him as his fans like to claim. In his only full season he averaged 4.2 shots at the rim per game and only 2.2 FTs. Every elite or close to elite slasher gets to the line and to the rim way more than this.

[Rainwater]

Pretty much on the fence on this one. But really good arguments from everyone especially Zaymon, Primethyme, and Bensational.

[JF5]

This article has so many Olympic level stretches to defend its preposterous claim that a number 1 pick who is averaging 12/5 at a dreadful efficiency in his third season while his team was well below .500 was not a bust.

The Man Shot 46.5% in the 2019-2020 Season in 27.3 MPG. What are you talking about?

Also, this was his first full year after not playing for the first two. People completely wrote him off and said he was garbage. The fact that he was able to start immediately on a playoff team 5 games into the season should tell you how effective and noticeably better he was than Augustin. Especially when it came to pace and getting guys like Fournier or Vucevic easier shots.

Top 20 in the league among point guards at finishing on drives is really not that special, there are only 30 teams after all. He's a very good finisher at the rim, I'd give him that, but not elite. And getting there is nowhere near as easy for him as his fans like to claim. In his only full season he averaged 4.2 shots at the rim per game and only 2.2 FTs. Every elite or close to elite slasher gets to the line and to the rim way more than this.

That's my point you just admitted he's a very good finisher he was bordering on an elite at times. Considering that was his first full year in the NBA that's fairly impressive. He was was relegated as the the Set guy for Fournier/Vucevic/Ross/Gordon most of the time as they still followed the structure that got them into the playoffs the year before. He only Shot the ball 10+ times a game with good efficiency. It's even more impressive stat considering that his jumpshot is broken and still was able to get to the rim at will.

Seriously, we got this guy for pretty much nothing and he was good for us. He wasn't playing like the first pick in the draft. But he definitely showed that he belongs in the NBA. He was a good player, is it really that hard to admit?

[pepe1991]

PLaying with some Fultz data:

During 2019-20 season Markell Fultz RPM was -0,77 with ranked him 55th PG among 95 players that ever suited at PG in nba.

Excluding anybody but guards and starters in nba: Fultz was just 40# in drives per game.
In points per drives, Fultz was as "leathal" driver as Evan Fournier. You know, that guard fans couldn't stop bit*** and moan how awful he is when he drives narrative bias at it's finest
Assists created after drives made Fultz sit at 1,3 assists. He was as leathal as... Luke Kennard in that department? oops.


People wrote him off and said he was garbage because he was objective garbage in first two years and unplayable. In third year he proved he is playable and not complete garbage. Still complete and utter waste of lottery pick and worst 1# pick since Bennett. By year 4, and very few games he played, he showed clear regression in jumpshot and zero improvments overall. It made zero sense for Orlando to resign him before having another year to look at his development. Instad WeHam slapped contract on him, than he torn ACL half of month later. Nobody saw him since.

[JF5]

PLaying with some Fultz data:

During 2019-20 season Markell Fultz RPM was -0,77 with ranked him 55th PG among 95 players that ever suited at PG in nba.

[Excluding anybody but guards and starters in nba: Fultz was just 40# in drives per game.
In points per drives, Fultz was as "leathal" driver as Evan Fournier. You know, that guard fans couldn't stop bit*** and moan how awful he is when he drives narrative bias at it's finest
Assists created after drives made Fultz sit at 1,3 assists. He was as leathal as... Luke Kennard in that department? oops.


People wrote him off and said he was garbage because he was objective garbage in first two years and unplayable. In third year he proved he is playable and not complete garbage. Still complete and utter waste of lottery pick and worst 1# pick since Bennett. By year 4, and very few games he played, he showed clear regression in jumpshot and zero improvments overall. It made zero sense for Orlando to resign him before having another year to look at his development. Instad WeHam slapped contract on him, than he torn ACL half of month later. Nobody saw him since.

Hey Pepe I want to see articles and actual stats that showed Fultz as a horrible finisher/drives to the baskets or he was "so terrible". If you're trying to convince me when it comes to this analyzation, just like we've had convos and article references of how poor of an isolation player AG was when he was with the Magic than I can actually go through seeing your side of it.

Because people like to use random Stats all the time without any sort of consideration/context and I've remembered where a person here was saying that Pau Gasol was a better defender than Gary Payton or Kobe Bryant because he had a better DPM and DWS than both in multiple years.

This is even when Gary Payton won defensive player of the year and he is heralded as one of the best defenders ever, same as Kobe who been on a slew of All-Defensive Teams as Pau never even made one in his career was considered average at best.

[pepe1991]

PLaying with some Fultz data:

During 2019-20 season Markell Fultz RPM was -0,77 with ranked him 55th PG among 95 players that ever suited at PG in nba.

[Excluding anybody but guards and starters in nba: Fultz was just 40# in drives per game.
In points per drives, Fultz was as "leathal" driver as Evan Fournier. You know, that guard fans couldn't stop bit*** and moan how awful he is when he drives narrative bias at it's finest
Assists created after drives made Fultz sit at 1,3 assists. He was as leathal as... Luke Kennard in that department? oops.


People wrote him off and said he was garbage because he was objective garbage in first two years and unplayable. In third year he proved he is playable and not complete garbage. Still complete and utter waste of lottery pick and worst 1# pick since Bennett. By year 4, and very few games he played, he showed clear regression in jumpshot and zero improvments overall. It made zero sense for Orlando to resign him before having another year to look at his development. Instad WeHam slapped contract on him, than he torn ACL half of month later. Nobody saw him since.

Hey Pepe I want to see articles and actual stats that showed Fultz as a horrible finisher/drives to the baskets or he was "so terrible". If you're trying to convince me when it comes to this analyzation, just like we've had convos and article references of how poor of an isolation player AG was when he was with the Magic than I can actually go through seeing your side of it.

Because people like to use random Stats all the time without any sort of consideration/context and I've remembered where a person here was saying that Pau Gasol was a better defender than Gary Payton or Kobe Bryant because he had a better DPM and DWS than both in multiple years.

This is even when Gary Payton won defensive player of the year and he is heralded as one of the best defenders ever, same as Kobe who been on a slew of All-Defensive Teams as Pau never even made one in his career was considered average at best.

It's not "random stat" you just have to look it up by yourself to judge player.
AG horrific isolation was very obvious ( literally, you only had to use nba tracking to figure ) and i remember few posters, including me bringing it up, just like Elfrid Payton matador defenes of pick& roll ( witch was bit harder to figure, because people would always blame Vuc for whatever happened on that end ). But forum "common sense" was against it, they saw Kawhi Leonard in Gordon and elite defender in Payton.
I took 2 freaking year until somebody bothered to actually watch Magic basketball and write down articles "against " them to open eyes of forum.

I don't need random ESPN beatwriter to make article about Fultz to figure he is -elite at-nothing PG who is basically nothing else but worst clone of Eric Bledsoe. If you need Zach Lowe, Josh Robbins or Evan Dunlap to write article to "open your eyes" fine. I really,really don't.

There are margins set by "league average" and today you have incredible amount of data to compare players.
Fultz never stacked well in most categories against other starting PGs, mostly because he was molded to be scoring point guard in nba, but due his condition lost ablity to shoot and it wracked his whole game.

As for Gasol/Gary Payton / Kobe /defense dynamic... tbh Gasol was better defender than Kobe overall. Not because od DPM or defensive win share, but because Gasol was Mr. Reliable on defense. Never super elite. But most of career above average. Kobe was flashy defender like Lebron is most of his older years ,he would tune in and tune out on defense, and as he was aiging he really didn't play much defense at all. ( post 2012 Kobe was black hole on defense but pss....).
Gasol was great rebounder, always was in top of nba in points saved, always had nice amount of blocks ( that mean nothing ,but he did ), and you can see clear impact of his defense by just tracking teams with vs without him.
Memphis with him 5th best defense, 2second best defense.... After trade worst defense in nba.
Lakers without him 24th defense , with him 5th best. Next year 6th, next year 4th. And if you remember some of old Memphis teams (2003-04) those teams were all about Pau Gasol protecting rim ( second best player was Posey ).

But... post age 28 Kobe would have like 1 steal by gambling on passing line, and 1 block by leaving his assigment and bark like he just won title and flex to camera as fans were going crazy. That play, that one defenisve play whole game, would always be highlight reel on nba.com and brodcasated all over the world.
Pau Gasol, looking like caveman, pale-white, emotionless Pau had his "soft" nickname attached to his name whole life. And brainless morons like Skip Bayless, SA Smith and others would harp on his defense because he, on his own was not able to shut down names like: Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan ( but it was always funny narrative and one way road, because non of them was actually able to shut him down either, but that was never mentioned because it would hurt narrative that was pushed ). Now, 10 years later, imagine if somebody calls Giannis or Matisse Thybulle soft because he can't shut down Durant or Joel Embiid or Steph Curry. Nobody does that nowdays because world finally left notion that 1 player can defend superstar in nba. But narrative in 2005-2013 was different.



It took mainstream media 10years to change narrative about Westbrook. When Durant left him narrrative was that Durant is quitter. When Harden couldn't win title with him, it was somehow Harden's fault. When Paul George couldn't pass first round with him, it was " Fluky P" nickname to describe George. And here we are , 10 yearrs later, and people finally figure Westbrook only plays for stats. Suprise MFers.... some people were saying that 10 years ago, and were called "brainless clowns for doing so".
MOral of the story, you don't need to read article on ESPN to get confirmation of information you have today.

[Skybox]

Need to stop referring to him as a failed #1 pick or even lottery pick in the context of evaluating Weltman….Obviously, ORL didn’t make that decision or anywhere near that investment.

[Mauro Pedrosa]

Playoff berth x2 and even with a win to give us some hope each year.

Very positive Vuc trade + drafting Wagner

I think they earned it

[Bergmaniac]

This article has so many Olympic level stretches to defend its preposterous claim that a number 1 pick who is averaging 12/5 at a dreadful efficiency in his third season while his team was well below .500 was not a bust.

The Man Shot 46.5% in the 2019-2020 Season in 27.3 MPG. What are you talking about?

Raw FG% is a terrible measure of efficiency and Fultz is a prime example. TS%, the best efficiency measure, which takes into account 3 point shooting and free throws, shows that Fultz was well below league average this season (51.7 compared to a league average of 56.5) despite being 4th or 5th option on offense. No surprise since he shot only 25% from 3 and didn't get to the line all that much.

Also, this was his first full year after not playing for the first two. People completely wrote him off and said he was garbage. The fact that he was able to start immediately on a playoff team 5 games into the season should tell you how effective and noticeably better he was than Augustin. Especially when it came to pace and getting guys like Fournier or Vucevic easier shots.

IIRC it was more of a case when a team has two mediocre PGs where one is in his 30s and in the last year of his contract while the other one is much younger, so it made sense to give the younger one a better chance to develop. I really don't recall Fultz being that much better than DJ that season. Maybe in the first games, but overall there really wasn't that much of a difference. The minutes distribution at the PG position was pretty even overall.

But sure, Fultz was much better that season than in the previous two, I never claimed otherwise. But that didn't make him "the second best player on the team at times" or elite at anything.

That's my point you just admitted he's a very good finisher he was bordering on an elite at times. Considering that was his first full year in the NBA that's fairly impressive. He was was relegated as the the Set guy for Fournier/Vucevic/Ross/Gordon most of the time as they still followed the structure that got them into the playoffs the year before. He only Shot the ball 10+ times a game with good efficiency. It's even more impressive stat considering that his jumpshot is broken and still was able to get to the rim at will.

Seriously, we got this guy for pretty much nothing and he was good for us. He wasn't playing like the first pick in the draft. But he definitely showed that he belongs in the NBA. He was a good player, is it really that hard to admit?

We got him for a late first round pick and he played at a level which was about average for a late first round pick. Then he got injured and has missed a season and a half so far. Even without taking into account his injury, it was hardly a slam dunk trade as you claim. As Pepe said, the guy the Sixers drafted with this pick (Maxey) has been better than Fultz so far in their NBA careers. And the same is true for several other players drafted later in the first round of this draft.

[Audi]

Pepe commentary on Fultz cannot be viewed reliably. This is the same poster who openly believed Fultz worked his entire life to get to the NBA and be drafted #1, only to implement a scheme in which he faked an injury in order to get the money from his rookie contract but never have to play again.

[JF5]

It's not "random stat" you just have to look it up by yourself to judge player.
AG horrific isolation was very obvious ( literally, you only had to use nba tracking to figure ) and i remember few posters, including me bringing it up, just like Elfrid Payton matador defenes of pick& roll ( witch was bit harder to figure, because people would always blame Vuc for whatever happened on that end ). But forum "common sense" was against it, they saw Kawhi Leonard in Gordon and elite defender in Payton.
I took 2 freaking year until somebody bothered to actually watch Magic basketball and write down articles "against " them to open eyes of forum.

The information for instance where we were able to completely debunk AG's iso and on ball abilities were backed by a Point Per Iso Statistic and also the articles which went in-depth into AG's abilities that added other iso stats and many highlights of him struggling to get his own shot. That was reconcilable with the Eye-Test / Statistics / Analysis of his skill set. Usually these were unbiased pieces.

I don't need random ESPN beatwriter to make article about Fultz to figure he is -elite at-nothing PG who is basically nothing else but worst clone of Eric Bledsoe. If you need Zach Lowe, Josh Robbins or Evan Dunlap to write article to "open your eyes" fine. I really,really don't.

There are margins set by "league average" and today you have incredible amount of data to compare players.
Fultz never stacked well in most categories against other starting PGs, mostly because he was molded to be scoring point guard in nba, but due his condition lost ablity to shoot and it wracked his whole game.

This absolutely makes no sense. If I can grab 5-10 References that aren't specified from one source and they are backed by multiple stats that can quantify a player's impact and play. How is that twisting the narrative? Like I mentioned before the issue I have is when you or anyone else throws out a random stat. State only your opinion AND state nothing else matters because that's how you FEEL rather than objectively quantify or assess a situation.

That in itself is the textbook of Implicit Bias

As for Gasol/Gary Payton / Kobe /defense dynamic... tbh Gasol was better defender than Kobe overall. Not because od DPM or defensive win share, but because Gasol was Mr. Reliable on defense. Never super elite. But most of career above average. Kobe was flashy defender like Lebron is most of his older years ,he would tune in and tune out on defense, and as he was aiging he really didn't play much defense at all. ( post 2012 Kobe was black hole on defense but pss....).

Again, this is VERY incorrect on many levels and you obviously know this. Why?
1. Perimeter Players have different responsibilities compared to a Big Man. Especially before this era of "Space and Pace" they often are the last line of the defense and make up most of the Block shots, Rebounds, and General defensive oriented Stats. In Contrast Perimeter Oriented Players after the Jordan Era became responsible for most of a team's Offense.

Outside of a few freak Athletes like Jordan/Pippen who would be able to actually average a lot of Blocks/Rebounds/Steals at their position. Most other Great John Stockton/Chis Paul/Bruce Bowen have their Defensive Stats usually quantified by how much points are scored on them/On ball defense. So when it come To DPM or DWS its really skewed

2. When you use a specified stat like DPM or DWS when it comes to actually quantify how good a player was on that end of the Floor you compare their DPM or DWS to the Best Players at their Position which I did.

Compare Pau Gasol to the best INTERIOR defenders in the league like Dwight Howard/Tim Duncan/Kevin Garnett and you'll see he'd usually have less or less than half or half of an impact in the DWS or DPM department compared those guys.

Compare Kobe Bryant to the best PERIMETER defenders like Bruce Bowen/Shane Battier/Tony Allen and he'd be on the level of those guys consistently.

Purposely Comparing Bigs and Wings without that context is blatantly twisting the Narrative.

4. DPM/DWS is also misleading depending on how good your TEAM was defensively.
For Example, Dirk Nowitzki has a Similar DWS/DPM to guys like Dennis Rodman and Dikembe Mutombo. Again, latter two are the NBA's defensive players in their era while Dirk Nowitzki is known a subpar overall defender through his career.

Again, how does that step really indicate what we already know via Eye-Test. Just shows its faulty

Gasol was great rebounder, always was in top of nba in points saved, always had nice amount of blocks ( that mean nothing ,but he did ), and you can see clear impact of his defense by just tracking teams with vs without him.
Memphis with him 5th best defense, 2second best defense.... After trade worst defense in nba.
Lakers without him 24th defense , with him 5th best. Next year 6th, next year 4th. And if you remember some of old Memphis teams (2003-04) those teams were all about Pau Gasol protecting rim ( second best player was Posey ).

Pau on those Grizzles Teams had very good to great defenders on the Perimeter. Guys like Bonzi Wells/James Posey/Shane Battier/Eddie Jones, Earl Watson, James Posey, and Dahntay Jones. Also, Stromile Swift in the interior along side of him to help block shots coming off the bench. They were loaded on that side of that ball to hide Gasol's average to below average abilities.

Also, on top of that in the 07-08 season when the Lakers got Gasol at the Deadline. They were already at the top of the Western Conference with a 30-16 record and were one of the best defensive teams without him. They had Fisher/Kobe/Odom leading the charge on that end of the court before Gasol joined them the last 1/3 of the season.

But... post age 28 Kobe would have like 1 steal by gambling on passing line, and 1 block by leaving his assigment and bark like he just won title and flex to camera as fans were going crazy. That play, that one defenisve play whole game, would always be highlight reel on nba.com and brodcasated all over the world.

This I believe would be the case after the 09-10 Season for Kobe as he clearly was making by previous reputation. Buts its obvious for a decade+ he was one of the best Defensive Perimeter players

It took mainstream media 10years to change narrative about Westbrook. When Durant left him narrrative was that Durant is quitter. When Harden couldn't win title with him, it was somehow Harden's fault. When Paul George couldn't pass first round with him, it was " Fluky P" nickname to describe George. And here we are , 10 yearrs later, and people finally figure Westbrook only plays for stats. Suprise MFers.... some people were saying that 10 years ago, and were called "brainless clowns for doing so".
MOral of the story, you don't need to read article on ESPN to get confirmation of information you have today.

You're rambling at this point... But I'm going to reference you back to the beginning of my Post

[JF5]

Raw FG% is a terrible measure of efficiency and Fultz is a prime example. TS%, the best efficiency measure, which takes into account 3 point shooting and free throws, shows that Fultz was well below league average this season (51.7 compared to a league average of 56.5) despite being 4th or 5th option on offense. No surprise since he shot only 25% from 3 and didn't get to the line all that much.

Didn't we know his Jumpshot was broken when he got here? Of course he's going to struggle to shoot when that's his crux of all his offensive issues. using TS% in this situation makes no sense since we all knew he couldn't shoot further than 18 feet out after rehabilitating his arm/shoulder.

If you expected him to shoot the lights out or have higher shooting prowess and Free-Throw Percentage after essentially overhauling his shooting stroke then I don't know what to tell you.

But sure, Fultz was much better that season than in the previous two, I never claimed otherwise. But that didn't make him "the second best player on the team at times" or elite at anything.

Semantics whatever... My point is that he's a really good finisher which you agreed with.

To me eye test wise he'd be able to put pressure on the defense consistently and have moments where he couldn't tamed. That game against the lakers in LA a few years Back where he had that Triple Double comes to mind immediately where he looked like he was the 2nd best player on the team.

Watch on YouTube

More of the Same against the Nets

Watch on YouTube

Also the Timberwolves

Watch on YouTube

We got him for a late first round pick and he played at a level which was about average for a late first round pick. Then he got injured and has missed a season and a half so far. Even without taking into account his injury, it was hardly a slam dunk trade as you claim. As Pepe said, the guy the Sixers drafted with this pick (Maxey) has been better than Fultz so far in their NBA careers. And the same is true for several other players drafted later in the first round of this draft.

The Magic already had the 15th pick in that year's draft anyway and selected Cole Anthony who is a really good pick and is very similar player to Maxey (Which makes the Pick fairly moot at this point since their fans view him as a Lou Williams type of 6th man like we view Anthony). Desmond Banes was the 30th Pick and we already have a crap ton of Prospects at the Wing position with Wagner, Suggs, Cole, Hampton, and Fultz with them potentially drafting another one in this upcoming draft.

You're acting like we missed out on a Giannis player in the later picks.

Relax man...

[pepe1991]

It's not "random stat" you just have to look it up by yourself to judge player.
AG horrific isolation was very obvious ( literally, you only had to use nba tracking to figure ) and i remember few posters, including me bringing it up, just like Elfrid Payton matador defenes of pick& roll ( witch was bit harder to figure, because people would always blame Vuc for whatever happened on that end ). But forum "common sense" was against it, they saw Kawhi Leonard in Gordon and elite defender in Payton.
I took 2 freaking year until somebody bothered to actually watch Magic basketball and write down articles "against " them to open eyes of forum.

The information for instance where we were able to completely debunk AG's iso and on ball abilities were backed by a Point Per Iso Statistic and also the articles which went in-depth into AG's abilities that added other iso stats and many highlights of him struggling to get his own shot. That was reconcilable with the Eye-Test / Statistics / Analysis of his skill set. Usually these were unbiased pieces.

I don't need random ESPN beatwriter to make article about Fultz to figure he is -elite at-nothing PG who is basically nothing else but worst clone of Eric Bledsoe. If you need Zach Lowe, Josh Robbins or Evan Dunlap to write article to "open your eyes" fine. I really,really don't.

There are margins set by "league average" and today you have incredible amount of data to compare players.
Fultz never stacked well in most categories against other starting PGs, mostly because he was molded to be scoring point guard in nba, but due his condition lost ablity to shoot and it wracked his whole game.

This absolutely makes no sense. If I can grab 5-10 References that aren't specified from one source and they are backed by multiple stats that can quantify a player's impact and play. How is that twisting the narrative? Like I mentioned before the issue I have is when you or anyone else throws out a random stat. State only your opinion AND state nothing else matters because that's how you FEEL rather than objectively quantify or assess a situation.

That in itself is the textbook of Implicit Bias

As for Gasol/Gary Payton / Kobe /defense dynamic... tbh Gasol was better defender than Kobe overall. Not because od DPM or defensive win share, but because Gasol was Mr. Reliable on defense. Never super elite. But most of career above average. Kobe was flashy defender like Lebron is most of his older years ,he would tune in and tune out on defense, and as he was aiging he really didn't play much defense at all. ( post 2012 Kobe was black hole on defense but pss....).

Again, this is VERY incorrect on many levels and you obviously know this. Why?
1. Perimeter Players have different responsibilities compared to a Big Man. Especially before this era of "Space and Pace" they often are the last line of the defense and make up most of the Block shots, Rebounds, and General defensive oriented Stats. In Contrast Perimeter Oriented Players after the Jordan Era became responsible for most of a team's Offense.

Outside of a few freak Athletes like Jordan/Pippen who would be able to actually average a lot of Blocks/Rebounds/Steals at their position. Most other Great John Stockton/Chis Paul/Bruce Bowen have their Defensive Stats usually quantified by how much points are scored on them/On ball defense. So when it come To DPM or DWS its really skewed

2. When you use a specified stat like DPM or DWS when it comes to actually quantify how good a player was on that end of the Floor you compare their DPM or DWS to the Best Players at their Position which I did.

Compare Pau Gasol to the best INTERIOR defenders in the league like Dwight Howard/Tim Duncan/Kevin Garnett and you'll see he'd usually have less or less than half or half of an impact in the DWS or DPM department compared those guys.

Compare Kobe Bryant to the best PERIMETER defenders like Bruce Bowen/Shane Battier/Tony Allen and he'd be on the level of those guys consistently.

Purposely Comparing Bigs and Wings without that context is blatantly twisting the Narrative.

4. DPM/DWS is also misleading depending on how good your TEAM was defensively.
For Example, Dirk Nowitzki has a Similar DWS/DPM to guys like Dennis Rodman and Dikembe Mutombo. Again, latter two are the NBA's defensive players in their era while Dirk Nowitzki is known a subpar overall defender through his career.

Again, how does that step really indicate what we already know via Eye-Test. Just shows its faulty

Gasol was great rebounder, always was in top of nba in points saved, always had nice amount of blocks ( that mean nothing ,but he did ), and you can see clear impact of his defense by just tracking teams with vs without him.
Memphis with him 5th best defense, 2second best defense.... After trade worst defense in nba.
Lakers without him 24th defense , with him 5th best. Next year 6th, next year 4th. And if you remember some of old Memphis teams (2003-04) those teams were all about Pau Gasol protecting rim ( second best player was Posey ).

Pau on those Grizzles Teams had very good to great defenders on the Perimeter. Guys like Bonzi Wells/James Posey/Shane Battier/Eddie Jones, Earl Watson, James Posey, and Dahntay Jones. Also, Stromile Swift in the interior along side of him to help block shots coming off the bench. They were loaded on that side of that ball to hide Gasol's average to below average abilities.

Also, on top of that in the 07-08 season when the Lakers got Gasol at the Deadline. They were already at the top of the Western Conference with a 30-16 record and were one of the best defensive teams without him. They had Fisher/Kobe/Odom leading the charge on that end of the court before Gasol joined them the last 1/3 of the season.

But... post age 28 Kobe would have like 1 steal by gambling on passing line, and 1 block by leaving his assigment and bark like he just won title and flex to camera as fans were going crazy. That play, that one defenisve play whole game, would always be highlight reel on nba.com and brodcasated all over the world.

This I believe would be the case after the 09-10 Season for Kobe as he clearly was making by previous reputation. Buts its obvious for a decade+ he was one of the best Defensive Perimeter players

It took mainstream media 10years to change narrative about Westbrook. When Durant left him narrrative was that Durant is quitter. When Harden couldn't win title with him, it was somehow Harden's fault. When Paul George couldn't pass first round with him, it was " Fluky P" nickname to describe George. And here we are , 10 yearrs later, and people finally figure Westbrook only plays for stats. Suprise MFers.... some people were saying that 10 years ago, and were called "brainless clowns for doing so".
MOral of the story, you don't need to read article on ESPN to get confirmation of information you have today.

You're rambling at this point... But I'm going to reference you back to the beginning of my Post

Oh boy...

The information for instance where we were able to completely debunk AG's iso and on ball abilities were backed by a Point Per Iso Statistic and also the articles which went in-depth into AG's abilities that added other iso stats and many highlights of him struggling to get his own shot. That was reconcilable with the Eye-Test / Statistics / Analysis of his skill set. Usually these were unbiased pieces.

And you really needed deeper statistical analytic from some writer to figure that out? It wasn't enough for you to just watch games, google "nba tracking, iso scoring" and see that in 2017-18 and 2018-19 Aaron Gordon shot 38% FG and 36,5% FG ( >40 percentile ) to figure he should cut those from his game?

How is that twisting the narrative? Like I mentioned before the issue I have is when you or anyone else throws out a random stat. State only your opinion AND state nothing else matters because that's how you FEEL rather than objectively quantify or assess a situation.

I don't really care about how i feel when i talk about basketball.
Stats, as i already said to somebody else, are number representation of what player does. That's why you compare multiple variables with multiple players, from present and past, to get more understanding what they say. When Dwanye Bacon has 98th percentile iso scoring on 32 possession a season it means nothing, when James Harden has 93th percentile on 1280 possessions it probably means he is one of most unguadrable nba players. (2018-19). And you can add your eye test, you can add true shooting percentage, scoring types, usage rate, on off and everything else to drive home healthy conclusion that in 2018-19 James Harden is one of best individual offensive players alive. ( Witch he proved as he they only lost to super stacked Warriors as Warriors only had issues with Harden led teams in their back to back titles ).

Again, this is VERY incorrect on many levels and you obviously know this. Why?
1. Perimeter Players have different responsibilities compared to a Big Man. Especially before this era of "Space and Pace" they often are the last line of the defense and make up most of the Block shots, Rebounds, and General defensive oriented Stats. In Contrast Perimeter Oriented Players after the Jordan Era became responsible for most of a team's Offense.

Outside of a few freak Athletes like Jordan/Pippen who would be able to actually average a lot of Blocks/Rebounds/Steals at their position. Most other Great John Stockton/Chis Paul/Bruce Bowen have their Defensive Stats usually quantified by how much points are scored on them/On ball defense. So when it come To DPM or DWS its really skewed

And here you are, twisting narrative. Witch i called you out three times now for doing so.
I literally wrote and i will repeat and copy past my qoute "As for Gasol/Gary Payton / Kobe /defense dynamic... tbh Gasol was better defender than Kobe overall. Not because od DPM or defensive win share, but because Gasol was Mr. Reliable on defense. "
But you ignored what i posted and just assumed i used win share


Since you are guy who needs to be told by "expert " that somebody isn't as good as you think, not some random forum nobody, such as i am, i'll give you direct qoute from Soul of Sucess, Phil Jackson's book and how probably graetest coach of all time pretty much roasted Kobe for not playing any defense, and media for being ignorant fools who vote him in all defensive teams because they fear of backlash if they don't do so.

Take Phil Jackson’s words:

“Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense.

"Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground.”

Book was published in 2013.

Purposely Comparing Bigs and Wings without that context is blatantly twisting the Narrative.

And again, you were putting words in my mouth that i never said, and again, i can qoute my above , red font as i said that Kobe was very overrated defender after age of 28 and Gasol was, imo, better all around defender because he was more reliable for longer period of his career.

Pau on those Grizzles Teams had very good to great defenders on the Perimeter. Guys like Bonzi Wells/James Posey/Shane Battier/Eddie Jones, Earl Watson, James Posey, and Dahntay Jones. Also, Stromile Swift in the interior along side of him to help block shots coming off the bench. They were loaded on that side of that ball to hide Gasol's average to below average abilities.

You realisze they won 50 games with Mike MIller, Lorenzo Wright and Jason Williams , right? You paitned Bonzi like guy was Pippen on defense. He wasn't. Guy was similar profile of player Crowder is today. Bozi only played one and half season with Memphis.
You raelize durign 2003-04, when Memphis has 50-32 record, Batier wasn't even starter? It was Eddie Jones ( way pass his prime) and miniature Chucky Atkins, yet still Memphis held elite defense. And through all those 3 years only one player wasn't changed or shifted out of lineups. Pau Gasol.

They had Fisher/Kobe/Odom leading the charge on that end of the court before Gasol joined them the last 1/3 of the season.

Kobe and Odom led Lakers in 2006-07 to 6th worst defense in nba.
And before you blow Fisher into best defender in nba history, i'll just remind you that Utah moved him for Ronnie Brewer,they improved record AND improved defense by doing so.

You're rambling at this point... But I'm going to reference you back to the beginning of my Post

Westbrook is prime example of media bias toward counting stats vs anything analytical. They loved Westbrook for longest period of time because of triple doubles. Despite him having trackrecord of being one of most notorious chuckers, shamless stat padders in basketball history. Narrative among nba junkie fans about him was always negative, narrative among nba mainstream media was how he "needs more help" . Guess who was right all along?

[Bergmaniac]

Raw FG% is a terrible measure of efficiency and Fultz is a prime example. TS%, the best efficiency measure, which takes into account 3 point shooting and free throws, shows that Fultz was well below league average this season (51.7 compared to a league average of 56.5) despite being 4th or 5th option on offense. No surprise since he shot only 25% from 3 and didn't get to the line all that much.

Didn't we know his Jumpshot was broken when he got here? Of course he's going to struggle to shoot when that's his crux of all his offensive issues. using TS% in this situation makes no sense since we all knew he couldn't shoot further than 18 feet out after rehabilitating his arm/shoulder.

If you expected him to shoot the lights out or have higher shooting prowess and Free-Throw Percentage after essentially overhauling his shooting stroke then I don't know what to tell you.

I didn't expect him to shoot lights out, obviously, why even mention this?. But fact is Fultz overall scoring efficiency was dreadful despite his decent FG%.

The Magic already had the 15th pick in that year's draft anyway and selected Cole Anthony who is a really good pick and is very similar player to Maxey (Which makes the Pick fairly moot at this point since their fans view him as a Lou Williams type of 6th man like we view Anthony). Desmond Banes was the 30th Pick and we already have a crap ton of Prospects at the Wing position with Wagner, Suggs, Cole, Hampton, and Fultz with them potentially drafting another one in this upcoming draft.

You're acting like we missed out on a Giannis player in the later picks.

Huh? Where did I imply anything like this? I am saying it's not the slam dunk trade you claimed not because we missed on a superstar with that pick but because Fultz hasn't been better than the average late first round pick.

Also, Gasol was a more impactful defender than Kobe. A 7'2" centre who is a solid defender at his position and not a complete stiff almost always is a more impactful defender than a guard, that's how it is. On defense size is easily the most important factor. All-defense teams have always been a joke plus they are voted by position, if they were more objective and weren't limited by position there would be 5 bigs in the first team pretty much every year.

[Magic_Kingdom]

You can't credit them for Vucevic being an all-star. First, they didn't acquire Vuc, Hennigan did. Second, they traded him away.

They hired the coach Steve Clifford who was able to elevate Vucevic into becoming an All-Star Caliber player. They deserve the credit for that.

This is similar to 17-18 Oladipo in Indiana or 03-04 Billups in Detroit who took multiple years and multiple situations to hit all-star status, and once they got into the right situation they thrived.

Hennigan actually TRADED for Vucevic, but it took a completely different Regime for him to hit All-Star Status.

In fact, the argument that they should get credit for the two playoff appearances (with Hennigan's players) and *also* get credit for dismantling that team is circular.

1. They get credit because they hired Steve Clifford and added guys like MCW and Issac who were instrumental into them getting the Magic into the playoffs.

2. Like I mentioned before they elevated Vucevic's value (as he became an all-star) to where he was Traded for multiple lottery players and a future 1st pick. Like I mentioned before back in 2017 Rumors saw him being trade for mid to late first round Picks.

Also, the same happened for Gordon and Fournier as rumors had them being traded for mid-to-late first round picks. Nobody really wanted to give up much to get those guys after the 2016-2017 season. Fournier obviously being the only guy being traded for multiple second rounders as his contract was coming to an end which WeHam screwed up on.

If you told Magic fans back then that, that we'd have that sort of haul in 2021 after trading those guys they would've laughed at you. To not give them props for them to able to do that is ridiculous to me.

The jury is not still out on Isaac. If you use the #6 pick on a player who has only played 136 total games in five seasons out of 350 possible games (38.9%) and for his career is averaging less than 10 points per game, that's a bad pick. The only thing that matters is that the team has nothing to show for it.

Issac was one of the best defensive players in the league before he went down. He was the primary reason why the defense was so good the 1 and 1/2 seasons that he was able to play. He averaged 2 Blocks a game, while also having over 1.5 Steals a game before he went down midway during the 2019-2020 season. He was also showing progression offensively. Not saying he was was out of this world. But was competent when it came to occasionally getting his own shot.

To say a guy who was in the running for DPOY and 1st All-Defensive team before he got injured is a bad pick is asinine. Considering again he helped this team get to the playoffs TWICE with the league's better defenses in both years when he played extended minutes.

Was Isaac "in the running" for DPOY? What, did he finish second or third? Did he get a lot of votes? Was he "in the running" for 1st-team All-Defensive? So did he make the 2nd team? Because I don't remember any of that.

I will give you that Isaac helped the 2018-19 team make the playoffs, although he only averaged 9.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg and 1.3 bpg that season. But he did not help the 2019-20 team make the playoffs when he only played in 34 games that year. He played less than half the season.

I agree that Clifford deserves his share of credit for the two playoff appearances, and it's true that Weltman hired Cliff. But Weltman blew up the roster the very next year after they made two consecutive playoffs, which ran Cliff out of town. So does Weltman get credit for hiring Clifford but no blame for blowing up what Cliff was building, thereby letting a good coach go? That is the circular nature of your argument. If Weltman came in here with any kind of vision then he would have done one of two things: 1) Hired a good coach and started building a team around what was already here; or, 2) Gutted the roster and tanked. Instead he waffled and did both and now here we are *5 years* after he was hired with the worst team in the league.

Anyone who wants to credit Weltman for little things he has done here and there should consider, five years into his tenure, how far away we are from being relevant. And if you like the direction of the rebuild, consider what he's rebuilding -- his own mess. It's like crediting a pilot who crashed a plane for successfully opening the emergency hatches.

[Skybox]

It looks, to me, that there are two very distinct periods in WeHam's tenure (so far)...compete for the playoffs with vets and, finally, when reality sets in for ownership, total rebuild. Weltman doesn't share any inside info, so we don't really know what his directive was but I doubt it was just "do whatever you want, we have no expectations at all". It's easy to say they waited too long for the inevitable teardown, but it's definitely possible that ownership took some convincing. Just a theory...as likely as any other conspiracy theory thrown around here.

-Do you really think they hire Cliff knowing there was an eventual rebuild?
-A few years ago, every time Henny screwed up - it was attributed to Martins' meddling, last I checked he's still here, lurking quietly. Not quite as satisfying to show up all over town when your team is heading towards 10 wins.
-Regardless of who's timing they are/were on...once the rebuild was decided on, they leaned WAY in quickly and decisively.

I don't know of any GM's with perfect draft and trade records...they're taking risks (Fultz, drafting Bamba with Vuc already here, moving a small-market All-Star, drafting relatively unheralded Isaac, Evan for 2rps)-some work, some don't...but, IMO, no risks = no chance at a big payoff. The easy move would be to just make a high, safe pick and see how things progress year after year...easiest position in the world to defend "Be Patient- we have a vision"...I hope they act boldly in the next few weeks. Sucking and drafting, sucking and drafting won't get them GM of the year. Selling seats, jerseys, $12 beers, and boxes isn't considered much on these threads, but owners care about that stuff...nothing worse than irrelevance in your own town. I'm watching OKC...how long can a relatively new NBA small market survive a brilliant GM building SLOWLY?

[JF5]

And you really needed deeper statistical analytic from some writer to figure that out? It wasn't enough for you to just watch games, google "nba tracking, iso scoring" and see that in 2017-18 and 2018-19 Aaron Gordon shot 38% FG and 36,5% FG ( >40 percentile ) to figure he should cut those from his game?

LOL, this was to set up my later point

And here you are, twisting narrative. Witch i called you out three times now for doing so.
I literally wrote and i will repeat and copy past my qoute "As for Gasol/Gary Payton / Kobe /defense dynamic... tbh Gasol was better defender than Kobe overall. Not because od DPM or defensive win share, but because Gasol was Mr. Reliable on defense. "
But you ignored what i posted and just assumed i used win share

I'll put this here...

What steller play? Magic had better record without him in year prior 42-40 than with him and his "steller play" 33-40.
He was 5th in PPG, by importance he was 5th most important starter, by eFG he was 8th most important player among active rotation players, by value over replacment he wasn't even better than his backup, DJ Augustin, who was starting PG on better Magic team year prior.

Also,

2019-20 season Markell Fultz RPM was -0,77 with ranked him 55th PG among 95 players that ever suited at PG in nba.

You're using advanced stats to try to devalue Fultz. I specifically brought up Stats with Context and now all of sudden you conveniently use opinion over Stats.

I find that odd.

Since you are guy who needs to be told by "expert " that somebody isn't as good as you think, not some random forum nobody, such as i am, i'll give you direct qoute from Soul of Sucess, Phil Jackson's book and how probably graetest coach of all time pretty much roasted Kobe for not playing any defense, and media for being ignorant fools who vote him in all defensive teams because they fear of backlash if they don't do so.


Book was published in 2013.

Did you miss the part that after 09-10 that I agreed he was living off past reputation after 09-10?

This I believe would be the case after the 09-10 Season for Kobe as he clearly was making by previous reputation. Buts its obvious for a decade+ he was one of the best Defensive Perimeter players

And again, you were putting words in my mouth that i never said, and again, i can qoute my above , red font as i said that Kobe was very overrated defender after age of 28 and Gasol was, imo, better all around defender because he was more reliable for longer period of his career.

and

Kobe and Odom led Lakers in 2006-07 to 6th worst defense in nba.
And before you blow Fisher into best defender in nba history, i'll just remind you that Utah moved him for Ronnie Brewer,they improved record AND improved defense by doing so.

Seriously, you need to reread what I said and actually look into what happened to Fisher and why he came back to L.A. in the first place.

1. I Referenced the 07-08 season. NOT 06-07...
The team in 07-08 was at the top of the conference most of the year at (30-16) and had a top 10 Defense WITHOUT PAU as he got into the team much later into the season which he played 27 games after February with him on the court.

2. I referenced 07-08 specifically because the Lakers were a great TEAM defense that year. I don't think you remember but Fisher was considered a very good or elite defender (Depending on who you ask). This and the development of Bynum catapulted them to one of the better teams in the West and improved defense before Pau got there with a top 10 defense.

Them getting Gasol later on in the season obviously pushed them over the top and added another dimension Offensively. But to say that he made the defense significantly better when he got there is not accurate as they were statistically and visually a better team defensively throughout the 07-08 season.

You realisze they won 50 games with Mike MIller, Lorenzo Wright and Jason Williams , right? You paitned Bonzi like guy was Pippen on defense. He wasn't. Guy was similar profile of player Crowder is today. Bozi only played one and half season with Memphis.
You raelize durign 2003-04, when Memphis has 50-32 record, Batier wasn't even starter? It was Eddie Jones ( way pass his prime) and miniature Chucky Atkins, yet still Memphis held elite defense. And through all those 3 years only one player wasn't changed or shifted out of lineups. Pau Gasol.

They had an elite defense due to the all around great team defense they had. That's why I referenced all those players. Like I mentioned before Pau was always an average defender (Which is backed up by Stats of DWS and DPM against the better interior players in the era) and the eye test itself as he was similar to like a Vucevic Defensively.

1. He didn't have Lateral Quickness to keep up with smaller guards, like you mentioned yourself he was constantly bullied by Better or Stronger Bigs, and his DRTG/DWS/DPM/Average Blocks compared to his peers too was average. He often got by being a smart defender and being a big enough body to change shots at times. He would accomplish this when the players surrounding him were good defenders.

Like those Lakers teams where they had Fisher/Bryant/Ariza or Artest/Odom who helped hide his deficiencies, defensively.

2. Also, what's funny is that his defenses with the Grizz were Elite during that time but never made a Defensive Team. But again comparing him to guys like Duncan and Garnett he was average.

Westbrook is prime example of media bias toward counting stats vs anything analytical. They loved Westbrook for longest period of time because of triple doubles. Despite him having trackrecord of being one of most notorious chuckers, shamless stat padders in basketball history. Narrative among nba junkie fans about him was always negative, narrative among nba mainstream media was how he "needs more help" . Guess who was right all along?

I sort of agree with you on this after the first 1,2 seasons the narrative on Russ was shifting when he was in Oklahoma. He was putting up those numbers but the teams weren't going anywhere. That usually happens to alot of Star Players after the honey-moon phase of them being great but are not winning. This isn't anything new really.

[JF5]

I didn't expect him to shoot lights out, obviously, why even mention this?. But fact is Fultz overall scoring efficiency was dreadful despite his decent FG%.

So a guy with Shoulder problems and overhauled his jumpshot months before that is having a hard time with efficiency outside a certain part of the Floor. So Ground Breaking...

46.7% with the context of him getting to parts of the floor where he can actually score/shoot at is very encouraging. This is similar to like Scottie Barnes or Giannis Antetokounmpo who just attack the rim and get really good or great efficiency when doing so. But outside of a certain point of the court their Shooting abilities are awful.

Huh? Where did I imply anything like this? I am saying it's not the slam dunk trade you claimed not because we missed on a superstar with that pick but because Fultz hasn't been better than the average late first round pick.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!

If you can draft a guy around the 20th Pick who plays 27 Minutes per game, STARTS, and has an impact on your team that ended up making the playoffs then you've draft well. Most Guys past the lottery are barely rotation players/bench warmers. The fact that was what we got for Fultz is good value.

What type of Statement is this?

Also, Gasol was a more impactful defender than Kobe. A 7'2" centre who is a solid defender at his position and not a complete stiff almost always is a more impactful defender than a guard, that's how it is. On defense size is easily the most important factor. All-defense teams have always been a joke plus they are voted by position, if they were more objective and weren't limited by position there would be 5 bigs in the first team pretty much every year.

Centers/Big Men before the Positionless or Space and Pace era were always more important defensively (There is a difference) given their responsibilities defensively as they were the last line of the Defense/Rim Protected/Directed Traffic/Responsible for most rebounds. You could only quantify so many stats for Perimeter guys as their responsibilities were On-Ball defense and Steals (Which steals in itself is a tricky stat) and I referenced that in the Post I made towards Pepe.

My point is you can Compare Perimeter Players with Perimeter Players and You Compare Interior Players to Interior Players.

The Barometer For Gasol compared to his Peers in the interior at the time who were great defensively like (Dwight Howard, Ben Wallace, Kevin Garnett, and Tim Duncan) who defensive stats from DPM/DRTG/Block Rate/DWS show that Pau was average at best. This is not even adding how many ALL defensive teams/defensive player awards those guys won. Even with the eye-test he was never any of those guys. It's not like I'm saying something that is crazy here with Pau being only a Solid Defender.

That's like saying for example using modern players that Myles Turner is a better defender than Chris Paul. Myles Turner has more importance but defensively Chris Paul is an All-Time Great Perimeter Defensive PG.

[JF5]

Was Isaac "in the running" for DPOY? What, did he finish second or third? Did he get a lot of votes? Was he "in the running" for 1st-team All-Defensive? So did he make the 2nd team? Because I don't remember any of that.

Before he went down with Injury in the 2019-2020 season

This write up was in Mid December of 2019

Still slight of build at 6-foot-11 and just 210 pounds, Isaac is currently leading the NBA in blocked shots, swatting 2.7 per game.

Isaac is improving as a rebounding presence for the Orlando Magic at the defensive end, now getting 5.4 defensive boards per game — an increase of more than one per 36 minutes over last season — while also averaging 1.2 steals and committing only 2.4 fouls in 30.9 minutes per game.

It’s at the rim where Isaac’s 7-foot-1 wing span becomes a problem for opposing shooters. He’s allowing 63.7 percent shooting on 16.3 shots per game in the restricted area, but that is a number that should come down as Isaac adds some bulk to his frame.

Among bigs, Isaac is in the 98th percentile with a block rate of 4.6 percent and in the 92nd percentile at a 1.8 percent steal rate. The defensive glass is an issue — again because of his lack of strength and bulk — where his 15.8 percent rebounding rate on the defensive end is only in the 43rd percentile.

https://hoopshabit.com/2019/12/14/kawhi-leonard-jonathan-isaac-top-nba-defensive-player-ladder/5/

also from Fansided

Before injuries derailed his 2019 season, Isaac was off to a promising start. In the 34 games he played, he was averaging 5.1 defensive rebounds per game, 1.6 steals per game and 2.3 blocks per game. Those are All-Defense numbers and borderline DPOY numbers. Unfortunately, that season was cut significantly short.

https://hoopshabit.com/2021/06/04/orlando-magic-3-goals-jonathan-isaac/4/

From Yahoo

Jonathan Isaac was having a breakout season for Orlando. He had become a go-to defensive stopper for the Magic, a long, athletic, switchable defender averaging 2.4 blocks and 1.6 steals a game. He was going to get All-Defensive team votes this season and looked like a future Defensive Player of the Year candidate. (On offense he’s averaged 12 points and 6.9 rebounds a game, both career bests, but he is still a project.

https://www.yahoo.com/now/jonathan-isaac-al-farouq-aminu-230000434.html

I will give you that Isaac helped the 2018-19 team make the playoffs, although he only averaged 9.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg and 1.3 bpg that season. But he did not help the 2019-20 team make the playoffs when he only played in 34 games that year. He played less than half the season.

With JI's impact defensively and a stretch of games where they didn't have the defensive advantage and they were losing. If he doesn't play those 34 games I really believe this team doesn't make the playoffs. But that's just another conversation.

I agree that Clifford deserves his share of credit for the two playoff appearances, and it's true that Weltman hired Cliff. But Weltman blew up the roster the very next year after they made two consecutive playoffs, which ran Cliff out of town. So does Weltman get credit for hiring Clifford but no blame for blowing up what Cliff was building, thereby letting a good coach go? That is the circular nature of your argument. If Weltman came in here with any kind of vision then he would have done one of two things: 1) Hired a good coach and started building a team around what was already here; or, 2) Gutted the roster and tanked. Instead he waffled and did both and now here we are *5 years* after he was hired with the worst team in the league.

The team was broken up because their original core in Vucevic/Fournier/Gordon all demanded to be traded. Gordon alluded to this when he publically made remarks after a game right before the deadline that he and others (Fournier, Vucevic, and probably Ross) felt the same way about wanting to go different ways.

Fournier indicated he wanted to moved during that off-season prior, and it recently came out when he was here when Chicago was playing in Orlando when Vucevic himself wanted to be moved privately and he was working with WeHam to get it done.

TBH I believe WeHam wanted to rebuild immediately, but like someone here said the Organization was wanting to make the Playoffs desperately. So the only way they could do it was by keeping the Vets and implementing a few pieces and a Vet Coach with recent success that would get them in (which happened in back-to-back seasons with those playoff appearances). They achieved that objective and were extended now they can a fresh start that they probably initially wanted like the Fans here did.

Anyone who wants to credit Weltman for little things he has done here and there should consider, five years into his tenure, how far away we are from being relevant. And if you like the direction of the rebuild, consider what he's rebuilding -- his own mess. It's like crediting a pilot who crashed a plane for successfully opening the emergency hatches.

I''m a person who sees it in multiple ways. But the fact of the matter is they answer to Alex Martins/Devos/Top Team Executives (guys who don't know crap about basketball). If those guys wanted playoff appearances within a certain amount of time, then WeHam has to go into a direction where has to rely on Veteran Players and Coaches to get them there and keep the suits happy. Its Political Game on top of having the medium of trying to build something of substance that can last going into the future.

Again, when the original Core of Fournier/Gordon/Vucevic all wanted to the leave the team at once, WeHam probably said to the Suits they could turn this around within 2 Seasons after moving on from those guys. Since they were able to follow through with the playoff appearances which was probably the main objective, now they can rebuild the team into what they and what the fans want.

This expands as to what I'm talking about

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