Fultz: Ranked #29 out of 30 Point Guard

[swarlesbarkley]

I think that Fultz has a much greater impact at times than the 29th best PG in the league - he still has quite a few of the skills and athleticism that made him a #1 pick. But overall his weirdo 3 shot and his reluctance to take it pushes him wayyy down the list because, even though he's able to create open looks for guys on drive and dishes, his presence on the court shrinks the defense and makes it much harder for our other guys to score.

29th is fair.

If he stops shooting 3s like a he's wearing a winter jacket and starts shooting them like his midrange pull up then he could easily be top 15.

[The-Stallion70]

I am interested in how the Forum feels here...

I've seen 2-3 articles where Fultz was ranked #29 of 30 point guards in the league.

From a national standpoint, is he really that bad?

Thanks

Example: Top NBA point guards for 2022-23: Ranking all 30 starters

Going through the list, yes I would have Fultz above the 29 he is listed at. For example, Fultz is better than Lonzo Ball, who is physically incapable of playing basketball.


But interestingly, sorting on RAPTOR (which has players that only sometimes are PGs in its sort), Fultz is the 58th "best" PG.
THat's the pepe narrative that Fultz is not a starting quality guard for the NBA.


Finally, by qualified PER, Fultz is the 18th best PG.


So: what is it? It is interesting how different RAPTOR and PER are in ranking lists. Very poor overlap between them.


..

Article came out on 10/3/22

So.... Fultz haters just pulling old articles to try to prove a point and ignoring present evidence.

Fultz could have been great if he never had the shoulder injury. Even now without the ability to space the floor, he is still head and shoulders better than Suggs and Cole.

[ogmagicfan]

I am interested in how the Forum feels here...

I've seen 2-3 articles where Fultz was ranked #29 of 30 point guards in the league.

From a national standpoint, is he really that bad?

Thanks

Example: Top NBA point guards for 2022-23: Ranking all 30 starters

Going through the list, yes I would have Fultz above the 29 he is listed at. For example, Fultz is better than Lonzo Ball, who is physically incapable of playing basketball.


But interestingly, sorting on RAPTOR (which has players that only sometimes are PGs in its sort), Fultz is the 58th "best" PG.
THat's the pepe narrative that Fultz is not a starting quality guard for the NBA.


Finally, by qualified PER, Fultz is the 18th best PG.


So: what is it? It is interesting how different RAPTOR and PER are in ranking lists. Very poor overlap between them.


..

Article came out on 10/3/22

So.... Fultz haters just pulling old articles to try to prove a point and ignoring present evidence.

Fultz could have been great if he never had the shoulder injury. Even now without the ability to space the floor, he is still head and shoulders better than Suggs and Cole.

Narrator Voice: "Fultz is infact worse than Suggs & Cole"

[VFX]

I am interested in how the Forum feels here...

I've seen 2-3 articles where Fultz was ranked #29 of 30 point guards in the league.

From a national standpoint, is he really that bad?

Thanks

Example: Top NBA point guards for 2022-23: Ranking all 30 starters

Going through the list, yes I would have Fultz above the 29 he is listed at. For example, Fultz is better than Lonzo Ball, who is physically incapable of playing basketball.


But interestingly, sorting on RAPTOR (which has players that only sometimes are PGs in its sort), Fultz is the 58th "best" PG.
THat's the pepe narrative that Fultz is not a starting quality guard for the NBA.


Finally, by qualified PER, Fultz is the 18th best PG.


So: what is it? It is interesting how different RAPTOR and PER are in ranking lists. Very poor overlap between them.


..

Article came out on 10/3/22

So.... Fultz haters just pulling old articles to try to prove a point and ignoring present evidence.

Fultz could have been great if he never had the shoulder injury. Even now without the ability to space the floor, he is still head and shoulders better than Suggs and Cole.

No.

I’ll have what you’re smoking.

Suggs and Cole have made the team look infinitely better when they are on the floor as opposed to Fultz and Harris. If you can’t see that, then you aren’t paying close enough attention.

[HotelVitale]

PER is basically just a volume stat, how much pure numbers are you producing? And it favors certain stats too. It’s a very old and primitive stat and no one who messes with advanced stats even glances at it now (people definitely use some other faulty stats but will say ‘I know it has X limitations’ but PER is less respected and literally doesn’t get cited at all anymore).

By PER, Fultz is about the 150th best NBA baller, which puts him about the 30th best PG. That sounds essentially correct to me.

Fultz is listed as the 20th best PG by PER, just a hair below the people at # 17-19. See above for (partial) explanation why.

[p0peye]

It's a shame he has limited range in his jumpshot. He's not a particularly good playmaker, he's not a defensive stopper, but if he could shoot 3s he would be a fit. Alas, with the way things are, I am not sure how we can keep him. In my opinion, every day our office spends without bringing PG that can space the floor is a waste and does damage to Franz and Paolo development.

[yoyojw17]

So to recap zaymon’s position on Fultz:

He’s PRETENDING being a starting pg when in fact isn’t even bench quality because he’s worse against reserves. He’s hiding behind Paolo, Franz and Wendell, PRETENDING he can generate offense for others because they are good. He’s PRETENDING to have handles but loses the ball in critical moments, so teams just love to let him handle the ball.

Oh, and he’s PRETENDING to have TOS all this time.

lmao.... I'm happy that i wasn't the only one that went.... "Wait... what did he just say?"

Fultz could be an EFFICIENT 20pnt scoring guard in this league... for those that love stats only.... SGA and fultz are not that crazily different. rim to Midrange killers that have shaky 3pnt games. SGA gets to line at a ridiculous rate...but give fultz a handful of extra shots from what he's been doing post allstar break..... he would be there... and his name would be different across the league and even on this board

There is no way you just compared Fultz with SGA.....

SGA doesn't take 3's because he doesn't need to, not because he isn't capable. Teams aren't playing him from the paint when he has the ball at the 3pt line.

SGA's FT Rate is .527

Fultz FT Rate is an abysmal .231

Fultz could take over double the shots SGA takes in a game, and still not get to the FT line as much

I never said he would be SGA... All I said was that he's similar in the sense that he's and efficient scorer where he chooses his spots. And SGA is not a prolific 3 pnt shooters. And acknowledged that he gets to the line at a ridiculous rate.point was .... IF he did take more shots he would be at the 20 pnt level and there would be less discussion of fultz if he was averaging 22/5/5. There is nothing where I said or he could be SGA. Not sure why people are losing their ish... As I would take SGA any and every day of the week like anyone else.

[Residual-Heat]

i wouldnt put him at 29 but i think most unbiased fans would rank him bottom 10. Then you add in the fact that he's not a good long term fit with our young core (Paolo, Franz and Suggs) and it just makes sense to look for an upgrade. What are our options in FA? FVV? Deangelo Russell? Kyrie isnt coming, who else would be a possible target?

[drsd]

PER is basically just a volume stat, how much pure numbers are you producing? And it favors certain stats too. It’s a very old and primitive stat and no one who messes with advanced stats even glances at it now (people definitely use some other faulty stats but will say ‘I know it has X limitations’ but PER is less respected and literally doesn’t get cited at all anymore).

By PER, Fultz is about the 150th best NBA baller, which puts him about the 30th best PG. That sounds essentially correct to me.

Fultz is listed as the 20th best PG by PER, just a hair below the people at # 17-19. See above for (partial) explanation why.

To list Fultz against all players allows on to not think "is James, Harden, Dončić, Jokić, etc. actually a PG, or not". Even for the Magic, there are many instances were F-Wagner or Bol are primary ball handlers, meaning at that moment, the Magic is running two off-ball guards with a point-toward.

I stand by the notion that Fultz is something like the 150th best NBA player. At highest, he is the 120th best NBA player.


..

[Orlando Dawg]

These are the last handful of games you’ll see Markelle Fultz as a Magic player, possibly in the NBA.

[drsd]

These are the last handful of games you’ll see Markelle Fultz as a Magic player, possibly in the NBA.

Do I think Fultz is worth 17M a year? No. Do I think he will be in the NBA for the next five year, plus? A huge Yes.

Whether he stays in Orlando or not, I am glad that both he and the Magic profited from his arrival, This team is better and his career is resurrected. There must be a mutual "thank you" in this.

[SloNick Russia]

Sure, a 16-5-5 player on 50+% FG and plus defense is nowhere near 16M per on modern contracts value

[drsd]

Sure, a 16-5-5 player on 50+% FG and plus defense is nowhere near 16M per on modern contracts value

Fultz is the 24th highest paid PG in the NBA after all.

2022 Point Guard Cap Hit Rankings; link

[JF5]

Example: Top NBA point guards for 2022-23: Ranking all 30 starters

Going through the list, yes I would have Fultz above the 29 he is listed at. For example, Fultz is better than Lonzo Ball, who is physically incapable of playing basketball.


But interestingly, sorting on RAPTOR (which has players that only sometimes are PGs in its sort), Fultz is the 58th "best" PG.
THat's the pepe narrative that Fultz is not a starting quality guard for the NBA.


Finally, by qualified PER, Fultz is the 18th best PG.


So: what is it? It is interesting how different RAPTOR and PER are in ranking lists. Very poor overlap between them.


..

Article came out on 10/3/22

So.... Fultz haters just pulling old articles to try to prove a point and ignoring present evidence.

Fultz could have been great if he never had the shoulder injury. Even now without the ability to space the floor, he is still head and shoulders better than Suggs and Cole.

No.

I’ll have what you’re smoking.

Suggs and Cole have made the team look infinitely better when they are on the floor as opposed to Fultz and Harris. If you can’t see that, then you aren’t paying close enough attention.

Suggs/Anthony in their current iterations are not starting level players. At least with Fultz (Borderline Starter) the team has been hovering around 500. Since he's played/started.

If you've watched the Magic for the full year. You can't seriously say to me they would be better with Suggs or Anthony starting instead of Fultz.

Those 2 are so erattic on both sides of the ball and with their decision making and overall play that this team would likely only have 15-20 wins at this point if those were the only options for the PG position. And This is coming from a guy who thinks Suggs has Star potential.

[The-Stallion70]

i wouldnt put him at 29 but i think most unbiased fans would rank him bottom 10. Then you add in the fact that he's not a good long term fit with our young core (Paolo, Franz and Suggs) and it just makes sense to look for an upgrade. What are our options in FA? FVV? Deangelo Russell? Kyrie isnt coming, who else would be a possible target?

Why do you consider Suggs part of the long term core? He hasn't proven that his value is anywhere close to Paolo or Franz.

[Residual-Heat]

i wouldnt put him at 29 but i think most unbiased fans would rank him bottom 10. Then you add in the fact that he's not a good long term fit with our young core (Paolo, Franz and Suggs) and it just makes sense to look for an upgrade. What are our options in FA? FVV? Deangelo Russell? Kyrie isnt coming, who else would be a possible target?

Why do you consider Suggs part of the long term core? He hasn't proven that his value is anywhere close to Paolo or Franz.

because i like his potential on offense (i think he can be average or above average) and he's already a menace on defense, but you can remove Suggs from the equation and it still doesnt change my mind about Fultz. There's just no reason to settle for a below average PG that cant space the floor for Paolo and Franz when they both need to be driving to the rim as much as possible.

[RichCollab]

Fultz starts next season at PG for Magic. End of discussion!

[yoyojw17]

i wouldnt put him at 29 but i think most unbiased fans would rank him bottom 10. Then you add in the fact that he's not a good long term fit with our young core (Paolo, Franz and Suggs) and it just makes sense to look for an upgrade. What are our options in FA? FVV? Deangelo Russell? Kyrie isnt coming, who else would be a possible target?

Why do you consider Suggs part of the long term core? He hasn't proven that his value is anywhere close to Paolo or Franz.

because i like his potential on offense (i think he can be average or above average) and he's already a menace on defense, but you can remove Suggs from the equation and it still doesnt change my mind about Fultz. There's just no reason to settle for a below average PG that cant space the floor for Paolo and Franz when they both need to be driving to the rim as much as possible.

But he affords them good looks at the 3pnt line, which they currently aren't making at a great rate... YET.... and they don't cut to the basket using the lanes that he makes. Now... i do have more trust in most that he could become a better 3-point shooter.... which is definitely one of his biggest weaknesses... other than getting to the line not as much as he could... if he wasn't so damn good at getting to his spots and reducing the contesting. lol

but straight-up calling him a below-average point guard is a little of a stretch in my opinion. After a year of playing with a young team that he did not get to go through training camp with... and has only played in the last 47 games.... more from him is definitely possible. And many think that this is the best of Markelle.... i still think we have no seen his "final form". haha

[ogmagicfan]

Fultz starts next season at PG for Magic. End of discussion!

For next yr it's not end of discussion. The chance he's starter next season is less likely than not.

[pepe1991]

Curry
Lillard
Luka
Lebron
Harden
Haliburton
Fox
Chris Paul
Trae
Garland
SGA
Jamal Murray
Irving
Holiday
Lamelo
McCullum
Brunson
Russell
Conley
Vleet

That's 20.

PGs better than Fultz who i didn't mention for various reasons: Dindwiddie, Lonzo Ball, Josh Giddey, Malcolm Brogdon, Marcus Smart.

3 PGs who will be better than Fultz next year: Cade( already is ,but hurt), Ivey and Jalen Williams.

He is top 5 worst starting 5. That's not even really arguable. Argument only is: how many backup PGs are better than Magic allegedly "core starter".