Magic 5-0 When Jameer Is Out [Merged]

[drsd]

Some ignant idiots running around here.

Jameer > Arroyo.

Jameer > Dooling.

That doesn't mean Jameer is a good PG, he's not.

I'd prefer Otis to go after a good PG.

There are 30 teams in the NBA. My question, are there 30 PGs better than Nelson? If not, he's NBA starting quality, and by definition, one of the best 200 basketball players in the world.

The Magic are not built around the PS slot. And in general, Nelson's job is to not lose games. Mostly, he has not lost games this year, and is thus doing his job.

There are about 10 PGs in the NBA that Nelson guards poorly. That's pretty darn good in my book.

[bigshawn]

People do the math:


0-9 with Nelson/Dooling/Arroyo against the Pistons

1-0 with Arroyo/Dooling against Pistons.

Nelson is Earl Boykins on steroids. He couldn't guard my 5'7" 13 year old son. Jameer has better foot speed than Arroyo, but so what. It won't help you if the guy is taller and can just shoot over you, like Billups and so many other PGs have done for four years now.

If you look at the last Pistons game, Arroyo was on him at the beginning and Chauncey never got confident like he does against Jameer all the time. Remember Dooling guarded him as well last year in the playoffs, but by the time he started guarded Billups, he was already in the zone from torching Jameer. If you have a confident, hot player there is no one in the league who can guard him. The trick is to not let him get that way. Arroyo is tall enough to slow Billups down.

As flawed as our team was last year, being an 8th seed, we could have beating anyone in the east except the Pistons and only because of Billups.
Hell there was only one blowout in the series even though we got swept. At crunch time the Billups called for the play #1, which was clear it out cause Jameer is TOO little to guard me. The rest, well we know what happened.

I'm just stating facts not opinion. 0-9 with Jameer, 1-0 without. Plus were a better road team and we beat them at home, which adds more fuel against Jameer.

[Last Guardian]

People, do the math.

Nelson - 11ppg, 45.6%, 5.8apg, 3.9rpg, 2.41TO, 35%threept (2.1attempts), 80.2%FT (2.1attempts), 0.9spg

Arroyo - 6.5ppg, 43.4%, 3.6apg, 1.8rpg, 1.2TO, 34%threept (1.2attempts), 80.3%FT (1.2attempts), 0.5spg

Nelson is a better scorer, shooter, passer, rebounder and defender. Arroyo is just better taking care of the ball. People will complain about the disparity in minutes sooo here is PER 36 a game....

Nelson - 13.3ppg, 7.1apg, 4.8rpg, 1.1spg, 3.0 TO

Arroyo - 11.8ppg, 6.6apg, 3.3rpg, 0.8spg, 2.1 TO

Arroyo is very good at taking care of the ball but that is his only advantage. Jameer is better at basketball.

EDIT: And Jameer has a higher Roland rating and a +2.4 on/off court as opposed to Arroyo who is -2.8.

[Optimus_Steel]

People, do the math.

Nelson - 11ppg, 45.6%, 5.8apg, 3.9rpg, 2.41TO, 35%threept (2.1attempts), 80.2%FT (2.1attempts), 0.9spg

Arroyo - 6.5ppg, 43.4%, 3.6apg, 1.8rpg, 1.2TO, 34%threept (1.2attempts), 80.3%FT (1.2attempts), 0.5spg

Nelson is a better scorer, shooter, passer, rebounder and defender. Arroyo is just better taking care of the ball. People will complain about the disparity in minutes sooo here is PER 36 a game....

Nelson - 13.3ppg, 7.1apg, 4.8rpg, 1.1spg, 3.0 TO

Arroyo - 11.8ppg, 6.6apg, 3.3rpg, 0.8spg, 2.1 TO

Arroyo is very good at taking care of the ball but that is his only advantage. Jameer is better at basketball.

I still think Carlos is the better passer, by alot, that is when he decides to not play 1 on 5. And as defenders is pretty much a wash, although Carlos is taller.

[mhectorgato]

I'm just stating facts not opinion. 0-9 with Jameer, 1-0 without. Plus were a better road team and we beat them at home, which adds more fuel against Jameer.

Sure you are.

Both teams have had a change in personnel and coaching.

We're 1-0 with SVG, Rashard, Foyle, Gortat, no Tony, no Darko, no Hill, no Hill, etc ...

[bigshawn]

-= original quote snipped =-



Sure you are.

Both teams have had a change in personnel and coaching.

We're 1-0 with SVG, Rashard, Foyle, Gortat, no Tony, no Darko, no Hill, no Hill, etc ...

I guess that explains why we got demolished earlier in the year, huh pal. With Jameer.

Also, people your crazy if you think Jameer is a better passer than Carlos. Carlos makes better paases because he is taller and he also knows when to pass and doesn't have to jump to pass.

Carlos just doesn't do it all the time, but his passing skills clearly eclipses Nelson's passing ability.

I don't think Carlos is the answer, but I know Nelson is definitely not and SVG should play the hot hand. That's all I'm saying.

[Bensational]

People, do the math.

Nelson - 11ppg, 45.6%, 5.8apg, 3.9rpg, 2.41TO, 35%threept (2.1attempts), 80.2%FT (2.1attempts), 0.9spg

Arroyo - 6.5ppg, 43.4%, 3.6apg, 1.8rpg, 1.2TO, 34%threept (1.2attempts), 80.3%FT (1.2attempts), 0.5spg

Nelson is a better scorer, shooter, passer, rebounder and defender. Arroyo is just better taking care of the ball. People will complain about the disparity in minutes sooo here is PER 36 a game....

Nelson - 13.3ppg, 7.1apg, 4.8rpg, 1.1spg, 3.0 TO

Arroyo - 11.8ppg, 6.6apg, 3.3rpg, 0.8spg, 2.1 TO

Arroyo is very good at taking care of the ball but that is his only advantage. Jameer is better at basketball.

EDIT: And Jameer has a higher Roland rating and a +2.4 on/off court as opposed to Arroyo who is -2.8.

neither is great, and we'll go through ups and downs with both. we need to turn one of them into a good PG (trade), keep the other coming off the bench (i'd prefer Jameer in that role) and keep Dooling as the hustle combo guard. we need variety at the position, but we also need consistency and less liability.

[magicman123]

i agree, arroyo is the better passer, just one thing, he hardly passes

[knappy]

and we have a winning record when Arroyo doesn't play

Jameer is in a funk that doesn't make Arroyo good

Jameer will get out of his funk eventually - Arroyo will still be a back up PG

[knappy]

uhh this is dumb. jameer is the best poing guard on this team. he actually trys to get howard involved instead of holding on to the ball forever like keyon and carlos. and carlos just plain sucks. he doesn't play defense and he bogs down the offense.

Agreed, Jameer is in a funk and the Carlos love doesn't make him any better a basketball player.

I like Hedo and he isn't from the U.S., but he is playing well. I like Foyle as a backup and he isn't from the U.S. because I like the way he plays. Carlos doesn't do a lot for me, but Jameer needs to play better or we need to look for a new PG.

I think Jameer will turn it around, but he needs to get at it soon. Arroyo is not the answer for me. - sorry, if he were better I'd get excited about him - I don't think he sucks, but he does very little for me - it is like having a backup PG on your team that is average - who cares - except he is loved because he is from PR.

[Bensational]

and we have a winning record when Arroyo doesn't play

Jameer is in a funk that doesn't make Arroyo good

Jameer will get out of his funk eventually - Arroyo will still be a back up PG

he's been in a funk for the last year and a half. that's not a funk anymore, that's just his level of play

[knappy]

Just throwing that out there.

Could you please tell us the five teams that we went 5-0 with?

We are 5-4 when Carlos hasn't played.

[bigshawn]

Put it this way. Does anyone think that if Carlos played the way he is playing now (not great but steady) and substituted his minutes for Jameer in the playoffs last year that we dont win at least a couple of games?

There is no way of knowing but, I can't just get that nightmare of Billups killing Nelson last year out of my head. I live in Portland and all my friends were saying Jarret Jack or any of the Portland PGs would not get torched teh way Nelson did.

Also, he doesn't make his team better because he can't pass the rock.

[Last Guardian]

Lol Carlos is not a better passer. Lol at Carlos being taller. Barely taller. Don't care what he is listed at there is a photo of them standing next to each other and Carlos has maybe a 5 centimeter advantage in height. That combined with his slower footspeed and lack of strength make him a bigger liability than Jameer. And unless my eyes decieve me, Jameer gets assists at a better rate so you can say Carlos is a better passer too bad there is no proof to back that up. Don't give me the BS about stats either, they only don't matter when they don't support your arguments.

[knappy]

Just throwing that out there.

Some additional comments on the 5 - 0

Wins against Minnesota, Bobcats and Memphis - 3 teams we should beat with any point guard - and yes I know we lost to Memphis at home this year and I know we blew that 19 pt. lead against the Bobcats - that was a shame - I think Jameer ended up being injured in the first half of that game. So, they don't even get mentioned and I think Carlos played well in those games, but any PG should.

Two good wins and the Pistons being a phenomenal win - Portland and the Pistons - so how did Carlos do since I am sure this all about Carlos and not the best interest of the team - although I'll give you that Jameer is in a slump and needs to snap out of it, but you can find stats to argue whatever you want.

Portland - Carlos - 22 minutes, 8 points, 0 assists and 3 turnovers
Pistons - Carlos - 29 minutes, 6 points, 4 assists and 2 turnovers

So, I wouldn't say the reason we beat Portland and the Pistons is because of Carlos and his stellar play.

However, you want to try and portray Carlos - sorry, but he just isn't that great and yes Jameer is in a slump. I hope we trade Carlos and get a PF by packaging Carlos.

[Hairy Midget]

[quote="knappy"][/quote]

I think it's more because Dooling is playing more, and his defensive pressure helps us win games.

[knappy]

Some additional comments on the 5 - 0

Wins against Minnesota, Bobcats and Memphis - 3 teams we should beat with any point guard - and yes I know we lost to Memphis at home this year and I know we blew that 19 pt. lead against the Bobcats - that was a shame - I think Jameer ended up being injured in the first half of that game. So, they don't even get mentioned and I think Carlos played well in those games, but any PG should.

Two good wins and the Pistons being a phenomenal win - Portland and the Pistons - so how did Carlos do since I am sure this all about Carlos and not the best interest of the team - although I'll give you that Jameer is in a slump and needs to snap out of it, but you can find stats to argue whatever you want.

Portland - Carlos - 22 minutes, 8 points, 0 assists and 3 turnovers
Pistons - Carlos - 29 minutes, 6 points, 4 assists and 2 turnovers

So, I wouldn't say the reason we beat Portland and the Pistons is because of Carlos and his stellar play.

However, you want to try and portray Carlos - sorry, but he just isn't that great and yes Jameer is in a slump. I hope we trade Carlos and get a PF by packaging Carlos.

[Hairy Midget]

Two threads?

[mhectorgato]

I guess that explains why we got demolished earlier in the year, huh pal. With Jameer.

Also, people your crazy if you think Jameer is a better passer than Carlos. Carlos makes better paases because he is taller and he also knows when to pass and doesn't have to jump to pass.

Carlos just doesn't do it all the time, but his passing skills clearly eclipses Nelson's passing ability.

I don't think Carlos is the answer, but I know Nelson is definitely not and SVG should play the hot hand. That's all I'm saying.

What was that, the 3rd game of the season for this group of guys?

[mhectorgato]

Put it this way. Does anyone think that if Carlos played the way he is playing now (not great but steady) and substituted his minutes for Jameer in the playoffs last year that we dont win at least a couple of games?

There is no way of knowing but, I can't just get that nightmare of Billups killing Nelson last year out of my head. I live in Portland and all my friends were saying Jarret Jack or any of the Portland PGs would not get torched teh way Nelson did.

Also, he doesn't make his team better because he can't pass the rock.

Not I.

Dwight only had 1 good game, the last one. Having Carlos instead would not change that in my mind.