FIRE WELTMAN

[Bensational]

I’m just not going to pretend throughout Weltmans tenure that he deserves credit for inactivity because homers want to attribute a theoretical timeline to his inactions. Thats not how things work because it’s convenient to your argument now in a three week window.

Yet you want to criticise his inactivity because you believed there was another theoretical timeline he should have followed, right?

One of these positions has the current roster poised for serious contention this season. The other has no objective reference to support it was a better path. Phoenix did what you wanted and signed Tyus Jones last season and this summer they’re blowing the whole thing up. That’s the closest thing you’ve got to a theoretical timeline and it ain’t making you look like you have a better idea of how to build an NBA franchise than Weltman.

FVV vs Fultz kind of became Houston rebuild principles vs Magic principles, and in that I think there’s a lot of evidence to support the path Houston took. At the end of the day my Magic homerism makes me pick our guys over Houston’s, but you can’t argue against the success they’ve had.

[pepe1991]

Majority of your reply is based on nothing factual

1. Weltman/Hammond came in... The first thing that Alex Martins wanted was for the team to make the playoffs as soon as possible

Did he call you to tell you that?
For a team that allegedly wanted to "make playoffs" they hardly even filled cap floor. Magic didn't even bother fill salary cap for that year. So your theory that you present as fact has no legs , and all the evidence suggest team had intention to continue to suck.

So per Executive/Ownership request he did just that adding Veteran Players/Veteran Coaching that could make it happen. And they did in the 2018-2019... a season after taking over after the 16-17 season.

You are making fool of yourself. Edit this. You can't even get years right. Between 2016-17 was followed by 2017-18 season, not 18-19
Do you know how many games Magic won in your alleged "pressure to win season"? 25-57. Literally 5th worst team in nba.. This by default beats your first point and cuts it in a root.

2. Given the objective, they had to keep this team competitive until literally everyone in the core demanded a trade to which they could finally were able to pull the plug in early 2021 as Executives/Ownership gave a green light to rebuild. Post trade press conference you could see how happy Weltman was to have us starting over again and build the team on his terms, much to everyone's delight in the fanbase.

Competitive in what? 42-40 season (2018-19) was followed by 32-40 season. Is that "competitive team" ?
Do you know what was Magic record on night when Gordon asked trade? 14-28

Btw, that Vucevic trade that netted the Magic Franz. People forget what the going rate it was for Vucevic BEFORE Weltman took over. His value for a few years had him going for a late first picks at best.

Will you use same logic when Magic picks start converting into players? Bane trade already gave Grizzlies one lottery selected player.
Vučević trade turned into massive win, but not because Vučević was traded for Franz or because Franz was hidden gem, but because Bulls got wracked by injuries. You know that this can happen to us now, right?

3. The actual full tear down took place in 2021. Drafted the franchise players in 2021 and 2022. Usually a rebuild takes 3-4 years and they've hit contendership/competitive status at the end of it at around 2025.

And once again you "forget" to mention that teardown didn't happen as strategic move but decision among players to walk away from Weltman. Gotta fit narrative i guess.

But if you told this fambase after the Vucevic, Fournier, Gordon in 2021 that they'd have 2 Franchise Players + an Allstar Caliber player and a stacked team that has the chance to win the title 2026 they wouldn't believe it. They would probably say we have a pretty good GM.

Among 6 worst teams in 2020-21, Magic are not even top 4 most successful ones.
OKC = won title
Rockets- won 52 games in RS
Wolves = played 2 CF
Cavs - played second round of playoffs twice, won 64 games

So your GM is nothing special. Especially because he could have started rebuild 4 years prior but elected not to

To have your team in this position you have to have a pretty good front office.

Position of never winning first round of playoffs after 8 years.

This team could've drafted Jabari Smith Jr., and Moses Moody who were supposedly to be projected better players than Paolo and Franz.

He literally failed to draft one of two best players alive. Didn't even arranged practice for him. Instead drafted biggest bust in team's history.

They could've potentially signed an aging Paul George last year and that could've killed our flexibility with his contract.

But trading all the tradable picks for Bane is much better...

Obviously, games need to be played, but barring injury this is the most talented team we've had since the Dwight years

Howard's team was top 3 team talent vise in nba. Current Magic team isn't even top 5 talent vise. You don't play against previous variations of Magic teams but other teams from present. Only reason why this "winning" is even a thing is because Celtics and Pacers are hurt for a year.
Meaning, title window is one year, and there is still no objective chance at winning this year. Basically Magic mortgaged future for one year window.

After that, by 2026-27, they will be in financial hell and probably forced to sell out Suggs/Bane by the 2028 for cheaper contracts and/or lose Black for nothing.

Time will tell. Time already told us that Weltman wasted 4 years doing nothing. Once his a** was lit on fire to save his job, he mortgaged future for 0 times all star.
By following entire nba for very long period of time, history tells us that such trades have spectacular backfire down the line.
Similar trades:
Kevin Durant to Suns in 2023- Suns were screwed just year later
Harden to Nets in 2021- Nets still can't recover
Rudy Gobert to Wolves- assets already turning into Kessler, Keyonte George, Will Riley + they have to give them 2026 pick and pick swap in 2027
Donovan Mitchell- returning picks just started, they still own 2 picks and 2 pick swaps

And somehow Bane costed same as three -top 10 players ( literally two MVPs) and best individual defender, multi time DPOY Gobert

I'm so out of this conversation and this topic. People doing "victory laps" after 41-41 season and one overpaid trade like they won championship. Time will tell. But I won't stand revisions of history.

[Horcy]

ahaha, these posts make you realise why fans are fans and professionals are professionals.
Whether you like him or not, Weltman is a proven pro.

[zaymon]

So after 8 long years of mistakes Weltman build a young contender by mistake and year to late Some really good posters are defying the logic and human dignity. Guys we understand you dont like Weltman and even if we win championship you will say that by now we should win at least 3.
The arguments here are so absurd that you wont convince anyone. My head just hurts from the facepalm.....

[Knightro]

So after 8 long years of mistakes Weltman build a young contender by mistake and year to late Some really good posters are defying the logic and human dignity. Guys we understand you dont like Weltman and even if we win championship you will say that by now we should win at least 3.
The arguments here are so absurd that you wont convince anyone. My head just hurts from the facepalm.....

No. We *think* and *hope* that Weltman has built a young contender.

Some people just want to see if it’s actually true or not before they start falling all over themselves.

If they have the kind of season that a lot of people think that they can have, I will absolutely praise Jeff for that.

But jumping to praise him now when they haven’t even played a game with this current incarnation of the roster and haven’t even won a playoff series in the near decade Jeff has been in charge just seems silly to me.

[VFX]

I’m just not going to pretend throughout Weltmans tenure that he deserves credit for inactivity because homers want to attribute a theoretical timeline to his inactions. Thats not how things work because it’s convenient to your argument now in a three week window.

Yet you want to criticise his inactivity because you believed there was another theoretical timeline he should have followed, right?

One of these positions has the current roster poised for serious contention this season. The other has no objective reference to support it was a better path. Phoenix did what you wanted and signed Tyus Jones last season and this summer they’re blowing the whole thing up. That’s the closest thing you’ve got to a theoretical timeline and it ain’t making you look like you have a better idea of how to build an NBA franchise than Weltman.

FVV vs Fultz kind of became Houston rebuild principles vs Magic principles, and in that I think there’s a lot of evidence to support the path Houston took. At the end of the day my Magic homerism makes me pick our guys over Houston’s, but you can’t argue against the success they’ve had.

No?

My argument with Weltman isn’t the same argument others have with him. My expectations for an entire rebuild for contention weren’t “win a championship in X amount of time or you’re a loser”. There are 29 other teams and other organizations are just better equipped and in better positions since 2017-18 despite that being a very long timeframe and still not out of the first round.

My issue with Weltman was never pushing all the chips into the pile and acquiring Kevin Durant. If you follow what I post you would know this. I believe in the same conservative approach to team building in terms of drafting and biding time as a small market.

The biggest problem I had with him is that he did half of the job since being hired. He made zero trades in 4 years to balance the roster if we are using the Vuc trade as his starting point (which is actually insane in itself considering he was hired in 2017-18). I was super pissed about the Bamba draft because it made no sense in any way you spun it for the next 2 seasons.

In terms of today, we still have Carter and Isaac in major roles here and people will tell me there are no better options since 2020. As a small market GM you must grow and develop assets for better return. He does not. He isn’t Sam Presti drafting and flipping players for 5 seasons attempting to find the perfect role players to fill out next to his guys. He keeps Markelle Fultz forever and lets him expire providing nothing. Huge difference there.

Now the argument about timelines will be “well we wouldn’t have X if he did Y”. No not necessarily. You would have to believe that this team wouldn’t be better situated in a 5 year window right now without making moves on the fringes. Like we are celebrating 9 years into a job that we finally landed a backup point guard that is competent at a very important role. Do you not see how low the bar is set? And now people want to say he’s actually not a bad GM because in the last two weeks he made moves when his back was against the wall? Sorry, That’s hilarious.

The homer argument will be “yeah but he waited for the perfect moment”. Uh no. That’s to assume that the bench couldn’t be better, Center couldn’t be better, and we didn’t have to spend what we did for Bane etc. There is no huge positive asset in the pool that isn’t hugely paid right now to shift if needed. Are people going to argue it was the best way to develop Franz and Paolo with the roster they were with than any other assortment of better skillsets at their disposal? No. That’s insane. It was less than ideal.

The roster is what it is unless some lateral move is made or Suggs is thrown overboard. This is a sink or swim roster now and there are serious questions about the bench depth to a team that is often injured. He’s staking this whole 5 year rebuild on Bane providing enough offense for his two forward system to work. He just had to get Tyus just in case it blew up in his face again, which is probably the smartest thing he’s done in a while. I’m excited to see what happens.

I like Orlando’s rebuild better than Houston’s but that’s just because I like the players better at face value. I think Houston has done more work to round out a bench and have a deeper developed asset pool currently.

[zaymon]

So after 8 long years of mistakes Weltman build a young contender by mistake and year to late Some really good posters are defying the logic and human dignity. Guys we understand you dont like Weltman and even if we win championship you will say that by now we should win at least 3.
The arguments here are so absurd that you wont convince anyone. My head just hurts from the facepalm.....

No. We *think* and *hope* that Weltman has built a young contender.

Some people just want to see if it’s actually true or not before they start falling all over themselves.

If they have the kind of season that a lot of people think that they can have, I will absolutely praise Jeff for that.

But jumping to praise him now when they haven’t even played a game with this current incarnation of the roster and haven’t even won a playoff series in the near decade Jeff has been in charge just seems silly to me.

I remind we are discussing in FIRE WELTMAN thread so i am not sure if we are falling over ourselves to praise Weltman.
Also the argument is not if Weltman is top 2 or top 3 basketball executive in 21st century but if all of his moves were bad and/or random and/or too early oand/r too late and/or lucky.
When you can jump to critic at every opportunity why you cant be otimistic ?

[jezzerinho]

I’m just not going to pretend throughout Weltmans tenure that he deserves credit for inactivity because homers want to attribute a theoretical timeline to his inactions. Thats not how things work because it’s convenient to your argument now in a three week window.

Yet you want to criticise his inactivity because you believed there was another theoretical timeline he should have followed, right?

One of these positions has the current roster poised for serious contention this season. The other has no objective reference to support it was a better path. Phoenix did what you wanted and signed Tyus Jones last season and this summer they’re blowing the whole thing up. That’s the closest thing you’ve got to a theoretical timeline and it ain’t making you look like you have a better idea of how to build an NBA franchise than Weltman.

FVV vs Fultz kind of became Houston rebuild principles vs Magic principles, and in that I think there’s a lot of evidence to support the path Houston took. At the end of the day my Magic homerism makes me pick our guys over Houston’s, but you can’t argue against the success they’ve had.

No?

My argument with Weltman isn’t the same argument others have with him. My expectations for an entire rebuild for contention weren’t “win a championship in X amount of time or you’re a loser”. There are 29 other teams and other organizations are just better equipped and in better positions since 2017-18 despite that being a very long timeframe.

My issue with Weltman was never pushing all the chips into the pile and acquiring Kevin Durant. If you follow what I post you would know this. I believe in the same conservative approach to team building in terms of drafting and biding time as a small market.

The biggest problem I had with him is that he did half of the job since being hired. He made zero trades in 4 years to balance the roster if we are using the Vuc trade as his starting point (which is actually insane in itself considering he was hired in 2017-18). I was super pissed about the Bamba draft because it made no sense in any way you spun it for the next 2 seasons.

In terms of today, we still have Carter and Isaac in major roles here and people will tell me there are no better options since 2020. As a small market GM you must grow and develop assets for better return. He does not. He isn’t Sam Presti drafting and flipping players for 5 seasons attempting to find the perfect role players to fill out next to his guys. He keeps Markelle Fultz forever and lets him expire providing nothing. Huge difference there.

Now the argument about timelines will be “well we wouldn’t have X if he did Y”. No not necessarily. You would have to believe that this team wouldn’t be better situated in a 5 year window right now without making moves on the fringes. Like we are celebrating 9 years into a job that we finally landed a backup point guard that is competent at a very important role. Do you not see how low the bar is set? And now people want to say he’s actually not a bad GM because in the last two weeks he made moves when his back was against the wall? Sorry, That’s hilarious.

The homer argument will be “yeah but he waited for the perfect moment”. Uh no. That’s to assume that the bench couldn’t be better, Center couldn’t be better, and we didn’t have to spend what we did for Bane etc. There is no huge positive asset in the pool that isn’t hugely paid right now to shift if needed.

The roster is what it is unless some lateral move is made or Suggs is thrown overboard. This is a sink or swim roster now and there are serious questions about the bench depth to a team that is often injured. He’s staking this whole 5 year rebuild on Bane providing enough offense for his two forward system to work. He just had to get Tyus just in case it blew up in his face again, which is probably the smartest thing he’s done in a while. I’m excited to see what happens.

I like Orlando’s rebuild better than Houston’s but that’s just because I like the players better at face value. I think Houston has done more work to round out a bench and have a deeper developed asset pool currently.

Don't forget that the league gave Orlando a No1 pick in the lottery when the odds were far stronger that it would land in the Pick 5 region. If that had happened we'd have been drafting Jalen Williams, Shaedon Sharpe or Duren best case scenarios (and I doubt Weltman would have risked Sharpe), instead of Paolo. Williams would have been nice, but he's a Robin rather than Batman.

To be fair to Weltman, the Banchero choice was probably the right one between he and Chet. But he didn't create that opportunity - the lottery balls did.

[VFX]

So after 8 long years of mistakes Weltman build a young contender by mistake and year to late Some really good posters are defying the logic and human dignity. Guys we understand you dont like Weltman and even if we win championship you will say that by now we should win at least 3.
The arguments here are so absurd that you wont convince anyone. My head just hurts from the facepalm.....

No. We *think* and *hope* that Weltman has built a young contender.

Some people just want to see if it’s actually true or not before they start falling all over themselves.

If they have the kind of season that a lot of people think that they can have, I will absolutely praise Jeff for that.

But jumping to praise him now when they haven’t even played a game with this current incarnation of the roster and haven’t even won a playoff series in the near decade Jeff has been in charge just seems silly to me.

I remind we are discussing in FIRE WELTMAN thread so i am not sure if we are falling over ourselves to praise Weltman.
Also the argument is not if Weltman is top 2 or top 3 basketball executive in 21st century but if all of his moves were bad and/or random and/or too early oand/r too late and/or lucky.
When you can jump to critic at every opportunity why you cant be otimistic ?

This thread was bumped as a “gotcha” it wasn’t bumped because people here got an inkling to fire Weltman randomly after actually making trade decisions for once in 5 seasons.

So the issue the optimist camp has is with past history from 3-5 months ago and not people taking issue with signing Tyus Jones or dealing players for Bane.

This thread was created in February when everyone was injured and Weltmans lack of decision making was very plainly obvious because the bench is garbage. Still is minus Tyus.

[Message Boar]

I'm tempted to say he can stay, but I still want to see him bring Moe back. Cant lose M. Wagner and Cole in the same offseason, just for the culture they set on.

I also still don't particularly like how he seems to be paying 120 cents on the dollar for every trade. I'd would be nice to be lauded for fleecing another team just once in a blue moon.

[zaymon]

No. We *think* and *hope* that Weltman has built a young contender.

Some people just want to see if it’s actually true or not before they start falling all over themselves.

If they have the kind of season that a lot of people think that they can have, I will absolutely praise Jeff for that.

But jumping to praise him now when they haven’t even played a game with this current incarnation of the roster and haven’t even won a playoff series in the near decade Jeff has been in charge just seems silly to me.

I remind we are discussing in FIRE WELTMAN thread so i am not sure if we are falling over ourselves to praise Weltman.
Also the argument is not if Weltman is top 2 or top 3 basketball executive in 21st century but if all of his moves were bad and/or random and/or too early oand/r too late and/or lucky.
When you can jump to critic at every opportunity why you cant be otimistic ?

This thread was bumped as a “gotcha” it wasn’t bumped because people here got an inkling to fire Weltman randomly after actually making trade decisions for once in 5 seasons.

So the issue the optimist camp has is with past history from 3-5 months ago and not people taking issue with signing Tyus Jones or dealing players for Bane.

This thread was created in February when everyone was injured and Weltmans lack of decision making was very plainly obvious because the bench is garbage. Still is minus Tyus.

and even when the thread was created i was happy with Weltman. I said that we must wait after he uses assets and that trading second round picks in the futere was a very good strategy. So how i knew we were gonna be fine and that Weltmans is doing majority of his moves right ? Am i a clairvoyant ?
ps. look at Knightro and Soul podcast and my question few days before we traded for Bane. I will tell you right now that i live in Europe and have no connections to the front office. It was very easy to see what he is doing and he was even telling his every move in interviews.

[JoshuaPotter]

So after 8 long years of mistakes Weltman build a young contender by mistake and year to late Some really good posters are defying the logic and human dignity. Guys we understand you dont like Weltman and even if we win championship you will say that by now we should win at least 3.
The arguments here are so absurd that you wont convince anyone. My head just hurts from the facepalm.....

No. We *think* and *hope* that Weltman has built a young contender.

Some people just want to see if it’s actually true or not before they start falling all over themselves.

If they have the kind of season that a lot of people think that they can have, I will absolutely praise Jeff for that.

But jumping to praise him now when they haven’t even played a game with this current incarnation of the roster and haven’t even won a playoff series in the near decade Jeff has been in charge just seems silly to me.

Like how hard is this mindset. I am on record liking the moves this summer. It begs the question of how he couldn't do it the entire time, but lets ignore that and see that thing called "results".

On paper I feel like we are a better team. We likely just signed the best PG since i started watching the Magic once Paolo was drafted. That should be enough to put a lot of us dead in our tracks in terms of logic. But we did have Suggs who "resembles" an NBA point guard.

[SOUL]

I liked what he did at the beginning (stood pat when other people wanted to panic surround this team with weird vets), thought he should've been more proactive in the last year or two around the margins (adding a player or two compared to not doing that, not punting every second rounder), and like what he's done this offseason.

So I'd give probably a B+ overall. Next few years will obviously be even more important.

[VFX]

Don't forget that the league gave Orlando a No1 pick in the lottery when the odds were far stronger that it would land in the Pick 5 region. If that had happened we'd have been drafting Jalen Williams, Shaedon Sharpe or Duren best case scenarios (and I doubt Weltman would have risked Sharpe), instead of Paolo. Williams would have been nice, but he's a Robin rather than Batman.

To be fair to Weltman, the Banchero choice was probably the right one between he and Chet. But he didn't create that opportunity - the lottery balls did.

Weltmans entire job for 5 seasons was making the right selections and hoping ping pong balls bounced his way. Everything post Vucevic trade was sitting back and waiting, handing out extensions, and not resigning obviously terrible players. His decision making consisted of working 2-3 weeks out of the year on direct roster decisions.

[OrlChamps2030]

But if you told this fambase after the Vucevic, Fournier, Gordon in 2021 that they'd have 2 Franchise Players + an Allstar Caliber player and a stacked team that has the chance to win the title 2026 they wouldn't believe it. They would probably say we have a pretty good GM.

Among 6 worst teams in 2020-21, Magic are not even top 4 most successful ones.
OKC = won title
Rockets- won 52 games in RS
Wolves = played 2 CF
Cavs - played second round of playoffs twice, won 64 games

So your GM is nothing special. Especially because he could have started rebuild 4 years prior but elected not to

That’s crazy honestly

[fendilim]

Majority of your reply is based on nothing factual

1. Weltman/Hammond came in... The first thing that Alex Martins wanted was for the team to make the playoffs as soon as possible

Did he call you to tell you that?
For a team that allegedly wanted to "make playoffs" they hardly even filled cap floor. Magic didn't even bother fill salary cap for that year. So your theory that you present as fact has no legs , and all the evidence suggest team had intention to continue to suck.

it’s not really to suck but make the playoffs right away so they tried to keep the core together.

This is during his first summer in Orlando.

"We want to bring in the right sort of people, add to the group that we have, with talented players who will play for each other,"
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/there-is-no-magic-formula-orlandos-new-front-office-explains-its-patient-plan/

You can actually hear him keep repeating how the Raptors approach (fans clamor to Blow the team up already but things started to click etc) in interviews the first few years. It was clear Weltman was hired to continue the build left by the departure of Hennigan.

[SOUL]

It's just common sense. Team wasn't going to attempt second rebuild without even trying for weak contention. Fanbase would not be able to stomach 10 year double rebuild without some playoffs inbetween. They also wanted to sell tickets and merchandise even if it's the weakest big 3 ever. I remember vividly, trust me lol

[eyriq]

It's just common sense. Team wasn't going to attempt second rebuild without even trying for weak contention. Fanbase would not be able to stomach 10 year double rebuild without some playoffs inbetween. They also wanted to sell tickets and merchandise even if it's the weakest big 3 ever. I remember vividly, trust me lol

Agreed. There was never going to be a clean-slate rebuild in 2017. Ownership didn’t have the appetite, and the fanbase was already worn down from the post-Dwight spiral. Weltman had to retool around the existing pieces to prove the core wasn’t viable.

That’s why Clifford was the hire. He was there to maximize the current roster, build a floor, and gather data. The goal wasn’t fake contention, it was a controlled test to justify a teardown. Once they hit the ceiling and the injuries piled up, they finally got the green light to pivot.

[JF5]

But if you told this fambase after the Vucevic, Fournier, Gordon in 2021 that they'd have 2 Franchise Players + an Allstar Caliber player and a stacked team that has the chance to win the title 2026 they wouldn't believe it. They would probably say we have a pretty good GM.

Among 6 worst teams in 2020-21, Magic are not even top 4 most successful ones.
OKC = won title
Rockets- won 52 games in RS
Wolves = played 2 CF
Cavs - played second round of playoffs twice, won 64 games

So your GM is nothing special. Especially because he could have started rebuild 4 years prior but elected not to

That’s crazy honestly

I like how context is not added here

1. OKC is probably the only team that has exceeded expectations and are the exception. (Even then their rebuild started in 2019 after trading George and Westbrook)

2. Rockets made it to the playoffs 1 year and were bounced out of the first round. The Magic were 47-35, 2 years ago and went to 7 games with their opponent just like the Rockets. Though in their situation they had homecourt advantage/2nd seed Also, Magic have made the playoffs in back to back seasons. So let's not pretend the Rockets have been more successful.

3. Anthony Edwards was drafted in 2020. Paolo was drafted in 2022. Ant made his first Conference finals in his 4th season in 2024. After the Timberwolves were bounced out in the first round in 2022 and 2023. (Sound Familiar?) Paolo is entering his 4th season with the Magic being considered contenders for the title. So we'll see what happens.

4. Cavs have literally been crapped on ever since the end of the 2022-2023 season. There have been calls for Cleveland to trade Donovan Mitchell because he wanted to go to NY instead because the Cavs weren't good enough. Even now people don't think the Cavs are that good given how badly they under achieved after winning 64 games. They were dominated by the Pacers in the 2nd round. Where is that context when talking about them failing miserably this previous season?

Just narratives... No real context... just crappy ESPN takes.

[MagicFan101]

So after 8 long years of mistakes Weltman build a young contender by mistake and year to late Some really good posters are defying the logic and human dignity. Guys we understand you dont like Weltman and even if we win championship you will say that by now we should win at least 3.
The arguments here are so absurd that you wont convince anyone. My head just hurts from the facepalm.....

Uhhhh. Fools are insufferable.

8 years of mistakes?

I remember when:

- Everyone was furious over selecting Franz
- Completely divided over Chet, Smith, Paolo

Fans want the quick splashy fix without understanding long term impacts behind the scenes or the CBA ramifications. Phoenix is a case study for how that works.

The path to winning is a more organic approach with controlled contracts and selective free agents / trades. Indiana with Ibaka is a great example. We believe Orlando with Bane will be also. IMO, NY went overboard and with a massive overhaul and it’s not going to work.