2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk

[zaymon]

https://tradenba.com/trades/jfYR-LSSF

Something like this ?

[purpleswordfish]

I like Bill Simmons, but his trade ideas are about as bad as Danny Ainge's actual trade proposals are rumored to be. That's a sack of crap for the one player making the Magic somewhat competitive. That trade instantly makes the Magic the worst roster in the NBA.

It's not just about the talent coming back. Personally I hate Nesmith, but say the Magic liked him, and think he is a lottery talent, you get essentially someone you value as a lottery pick and two or more additional first round picks. You get that plus you move off Vucevic's salary.

Next year would you rather have Vucevic and say Ennis/Bacon again, or you could use Vucevic's vacated salary to re-sign Fournier and sign someone like Drummond.

What's better Vucevic/Ennis(or an $8M wing) or Drummond/Fournier. To me it's pretty close. I am certainly not suggesting they make this deal with Celtics, it's terrible in my eyes, but the salary and roster construction has to be part of the conversation when you are talking about Vuc's value.

Or...they could just re-sign Fournier and keep Vucevic. What if the Magic make this trade and strike out on Drummond? Then what?

The Magic are a bad team, no doubt. But, you don't give up your best asset for some end of the rotation players and protected first-round picks. The Magic have no obligation to hook up the Celtics.

[Xatticus]

I like Bill Simmons, but his trade ideas are about as bad as Danny Ainge's actual trade proposals are rumored to be. That's a sack of crap for the one player making the Magic somewhat competitive. That trade instantly makes the Magic the worst roster in the NBA.

It's not just about the talent coming back. Personally I hate Nesmith, but say the Magic liked him, and think he is a lottery talent, you get essentially someone you value as a lottery pick and two or more additional first round picks. You get that plus you move off Vucevic's salary.

Next year would you rather have Vucevic and say Ennis/Bacon again, or you could use Vucevic's vacated salary to re-sign Fournier and sign someone like Drummond.

What's better Vucevic/Ennis(or an $8M wing) or Drummond/Fournier. To me it's pretty close. I am certainly not suggesting they make this deal with Celtics, it's terrible in my eyes, but the salary and roster construction has to be part of the conversation when you are talking about Vuc's value.

We are really overthinking this. To me, this is all pretty straightforward. Vucevic isn't worth his contract and our commitment to him is why we are where we are. Unloading him is a step in the right direction. If we can get some value in return... all the better. I wouldn't give him away if someone is going to pay for the privilege of taking him, but in the abstract, yes... I'd dump him for nothing if that's the best you could do.

The only time in the last nine years when we haven't been among the worst teams in the league was when we had a decent defense. Our high-water mark at the offensive end has been 22nd during the entire Vucevic era. We've never had a competent offense. We have, on occasion, been respectable at the defensive end.

To put this in perspective... Detroit signed Jerami Grant from Denver and handed him the keys to their offense. Grant was somewhere in the 5th to 7th range in the pecking order in Denver's offense. He'd never averaged more than 13.6 points per game or more than 16.2 points per 36 minutes in his career. He'd never even been given a league average usage rate prior to this season. The result: Grant is averaging better than 23 points per game and Detroit's offense has been better than our's this year. Our starting unit got blown off the floor by a lineup of Jerami Grant, Svi Mykhailiuk, Dennis Smith Jr., Mason Plumlee, and Saddiq Bey less than two weeks ago.

As Branch Rickey once said:

"We finished last with you, we can finish last without you."

I'm not blaming Vucevic for our predicament. I am blaming the decision to build around a player that was destined to be a backup center in the NBA. Shaq won a scoring title in Orlando and never took as many field goal attempts per game as Vucevic is this season. You can throw minutes and usage at anyone. That doesn't make them good. Remember when the Clippers traded Griffin for a package that included Tobias Harris and immediately got better? Remember when they then traded Tobias Harris for a package of picks and rotation players and immediately got better again? Everyone thought they were trying to tank, but they were simply managing their assets.

This is all reminiscent of the movie The Great White Hype. It's fine to try to build value in your assets, but if you start to believe your own BS, you just end up conning yourself in the end. If we can parlay some of what we have into something that will help us down the line... fantastic. Personally, I've seen nothing that leads me to believe that anyone in our front office is that astute.

[Bensational]

I like Bill Simmons, but his trade ideas are about as bad as Danny Ainge's actual trade proposals are rumored to be. That's a sack of crap for the one player making the Magic somewhat competitive. That trade instantly makes the Magic the worst roster in the NBA.

It's not just about the talent coming back. Personally I hate Nesmith, but say the Magic liked him, and think he is a lottery talent, you get essentially someone you value as a lottery pick and two or more additional first round picks. You get that plus you move off Vucevic's salary.

Next year would you rather have Vucevic and say Ennis/Bacon again, or you could use Vucevic's vacated salary to re-sign Fournier and sign someone like Drummond.

What's better Vucevic/Ennis(or an $8M wing) or Drummond/Fournier. To me it's pretty close. I am certainly not suggesting they make this deal with Celtics, it's terrible in my eyes, but the salary and roster construction has to be part of the conversation when you are talking about Vuc's value.

We are really overthinking this. To me, this is all pretty straightforward. Vucevic isn't worth his contract and our commitment to him is why we are where we are. Unloading him is a step in the right direction. If we can get some value in return... all the better. I wouldn't give him away if someone is going to pay for the privilege of taking him, but in the abstract, yes... I'd dump him for nothing if that's the best you could do.

The only time in the last nine years when we haven't been among the worst teams in the league was when we had a decent defense. Our high-water mark at the offensive end has been 22nd during the entire Vucevic era. We've never had a competent offense. We have, on occasion, been respectable at the defensive end.

To put this in perspective... Detroit signed Jerami Grant from Denver and handed him the keys to their offense. Grant was somewhere in the 5th to 7th range in the pecking order in Denver's offense. He'd never averaged more than 13.6 points per game or more than 16.2 points per 36 minutes in his career. He'd never even been given a league average usage rate prior to this season. The result: Grant is averaging better than 23 points per game and Detroit's offense has been better than our's this year. Our starting unit got blown off the floor by a lineup of Jerami Grant, Svi Mykhailiuk, Dennis Smith Jr., Mason Plumlee, and Saddiq Bey less than two weeks ago.

As Branch Rickey once said:

"We finished last with you, we can finish last without you."

I'm not blaming Vucevic for our predicament. I am blaming the decision to build around a player that was destined to be a backup center in the NBA. Shaq won a scoring title in Orlando and never took as many field goal attempts per game as Vucevic is this season. You can throw minutes and usage at anyone. That doesn't make them good. Remember when the Clippers traded Griffin for a package that included Tobias Harris and immediately got better? Remember when they then traded Tobias Harris for a package of picks and rotation players and immediately got better again? Everyone thought they were trying to tank, but they were simply managing their assets.

This is all reminiscent of the movie The Great White Hype. It's fine to try to build value in your assets, but if you start to believe your own BS, you just end up conning yourself in the end. If we can parlay some of what we have into something that will help us down the line... fantastic. Personally, I've seen nothing that leads me to believe that anyone in our front office is that astute.

The team just needs to pick an actual legit core to add to and make a proper effort to find quality supporting pieces. That will start with a youth foundation, but none of our current players are foundation pieces. I don’t think WeHam move Vuc (or let him walk as a FA) until that player emerges. And we’ll have a harder time finding that player whilst value is tied up in Vuc more or less sitting idle on a team that doesn’t win enough or lose enough to make a difference.

[basketballRob]

Omg I can't believe some of the trades people are proposing for Vuc. He's just as bad defensively as he is good offensive. He's never going to lead us anywhere.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[jonbob17]

I like Bill Simmons, but his trade ideas are about as bad as Danny Ainge's actual trade proposals are rumored to be. That's a sack of crap for the one player making the Magic somewhat competitive. That trade instantly makes the Magic the worst roster in the NBA.

It's not just about the talent coming back. Personally I hate Nesmith, but say the Magic liked him, and think he is a lottery talent, you get essentially someone you value as a lottery pick and two or more additional first round picks. You get that plus you move off Vucevic's salary.

Next year would you rather have Vucevic and say Ennis/Bacon again, or you could use Vucevic's vacated salary to re-sign Fournier and sign someone like Drummond.

What's better Vucevic/Ennis(or an $8M wing) or Drummond/Fournier. To me it's pretty close. I am certainly not suggesting they make this deal with Celtics, it's terrible in my eyes, but the salary and roster construction has to be part of the conversation when you are talking about Vuc's value.

Or...they could just re-sign Fournier and keep Vucevic. What if the Magic make this trade and strike out on Drummond? Then what?

The Magic are a bad team, no doubt. But, you don't give up your best asset for some end of the rotation players and protected first-round picks. The Magic have no obligation to hook up the Celtics.

They can't sign Fournier unless they unload salary somewhere else, either Ross, AG, or Aminu.
If they miss on a Drummond then you sign another center in the 10-15M a year range. That's what good starting centers go for these days.
2020 FAs average annual
Adams signed $17M extension. Didn't understand this one, and still don't except that Zion doesn't play defense.
Baynes $7M
Boucher $7M
Favors $9M
Harrell $9M
Howard $2.5M
Ibaka $9.5M
Plumlee $8M
Poetl $9M
Portis $4M
Tristan Thompson $9M
Whiteside $2M
Wood $14M

[jonbob17]

We are really overthinking this. To me, this is all pretty straightforward. Vucevic isn't worth his contract and our commitment to him is why we are where we are. Unloading him is a step in the right direction. If we can get some value in return... all the better. I wouldn't give him away if someone is going to pay for the privilege of taking him, but in the abstract, yes... I'd dump him for nothing if that's the best you could do.

The only time in the last nine years when we haven't been among the worst teams in the league was when we had a decent defense. Our high-water mark at the offensive end has been 22nd during the entire Vucevic era. We've never had a competent offense. We have, on occasion, been respectable at the defensive end.

To put this in perspective... Detroit signed Jerami Grant from Denver and handed him the keys to their offense. Grant was somewhere in the 5th to 7th range in the pecking order in Denver's offense. He'd never averaged more than 13.6 points per game or more than 16.2 points per 36 minutes in his career. He'd never even been given a league average usage rate prior to this season. The result: Grant is averaging better than 23 points per game and Detroit's offense has been better than our's this year. Our starting unit got blown off the floor by a lineup of Jerami Grant, Svi Mykhailiuk, Dennis Smith Jr., Mason Plumlee, and Saddiq Bey less than two weeks ago.

As Branch Rickey once said:

"We finished last with you, we can finish last without you."

I'm not blaming Vucevic for our predicament. I am blaming the decision to build around a player that was destined to be a backup center in the NBA. Shaq won a scoring title in Orlando and never took as many field goal attempts per game as Vucevic is this season. You can throw minutes and usage at anyone. That doesn't make them good. Remember when the Clippers traded Griffin for a package that included Tobias Harris and immediately got better? Remember when they then traded Tobias Harris for a package of picks and rotation players and immediately got better again? Everyone thought they were trying to tank, but they were simply managing their assets.

This is all reminiscent of the movie The Great White Hype. It's fine to try to build value in your assets, but if you start to believe your own BS, you just end up conning yourself in the end. If we can parlay some of what we have into something that will help us down the line... fantastic. Personally, I've seen nothing that leads me to believe that anyone in our front office is that astute.

I think this is going a little overboard. He's on a fair contract. This team is void of offensive talent, outside Fournier, so there is a lot more volume for Vuc to take up, BUT he is still doing it as efficiently as he has any other year. Now his 3 point% is probably going to settle closer to 40% on the season, and he doesn't get to the line enough, but he has increased his scoring and still kept or increased his efficiency.

It's true someone has to take the shots, but someone always has to take the shots, and how efficiently the make them determines their offensive prowess. That amongst other things like whether a player can get their own shot.

[Skybox]

It's not just about the talent coming back. Personally I hate Nesmith, but say the Magic liked him, and think he is a lottery talent, you get essentially someone you value as a lottery pick and two or more additional first round picks. You get that plus you move off Vucevic's salary.

Next year would you rather have Vucevic and say Ennis/Bacon again, or you could use Vucevic's vacated salary to re-sign Fournier and sign someone like Drummond.

What's better Vucevic/Ennis(or an $8M wing) or Drummond/Fournier. To me it's pretty close. I am certainly not suggesting they make this deal with Celtics, it's terrible in my eyes, but the salary and roster construction has to be part of the conversation when you are talking about Vuc's value.

Or...they could just re-sign Fournier and keep Vucevic. What if the Magic make this trade and strike out on Drummond? Then what?

The Magic are a bad team, no doubt. But, you don't give up your best asset for some end of the rotation players and protected first-round picks. The Magic have no obligation to hook up the Celtics.

They can't sign Fournier unless they unload salary somewhere else, either Ross, AG, or Aminu.
If they miss on a Drummond then you sign another center in the 10-15M a year range. That's what good starting centers go for these days.
2020 FAs average annual
Adams signed $17M extension. Didn't understand this one, and still don't except that Zion doesn't play defense.
Baynes $7M
Boucher $7M
Favors $9M
Harrell $9M
Howard $2.5M
Ibaka $9.5M
Plumlee $8M
Poetl $9M
Portis $4M
Tristan Thompson $9M
Whiteside $2M
Wood $14M

Just for reference-if you think we're overspending on C, You might want to add the OTHER All-Star Centers:
Jokic 28,542,000
Embiid 29,542,000
Gobert 26,775,000
Anthony Davis (F/C) 32,742,000
Sabonis(F/C) 19,800,000

[jonbob17]

Just for reference-if you think we're overspending on C, You might want to add the OTHER All-Star Centers:
Jokic 28,542,000
Embiid 29,542,000
Gobert 26,775,000
Anthony Davis (F/C) 32,742,000
Sabonis(F/C) 19,800,000

Outside of Sabonis he's not in the same neighborhood as these guys. I'd also add that Bam also got a max extension, which is going to hurt Miami's ability to team build. Embiid and Jokic provide surplus value on their deals. Davis isn't really a center, and he produces a lot of excess value.

[pepe1991]

Ridicilous claims.
Same league:

Jokic $30M
Embiid 30M
Towns $30M
Drummond 28,5M
Adams 27,5
Gobert 27
Griffin 36,7
Davis 32
Love 31
Zingis 30
Horford 27
Aldrige 24

Vučević was never designed to be backup center, he is one of best nba centers, one of better rebounders and easly top 5 best passing bigs in nba. That's why he is allstar in nba. Where others are not.
Most posts against him have zero ground in reality and are pure hate toward player based on personal bias. Nothing else.
It's flat out ridicilous what some people here claim but it's always nice comedy relief to me. Those are same posters who were drooling over Elfrid Payton.

Grant comment is even more hilarious. Nuggets commited $125M in salary. IF they kept Grant for $20M a year, they would be in crazy luxury tax. HOWEVER same Jeremy Grant was 3rd scorer on Nuggets playoff team last year. Unlike many other teams, Nuggets just have luxury of having Michael Porter Jr as his capable replacment. That does not change fact that they were better team WITH him. For crying out loud, they are 6th seed on west right now with 58% win percentage. Last year they were 3rd seed with 63%.
In reality, Nuggets miss Jeremy Grant more than they miss him. Indeed green light to shoot more makes you average more points, but only fool would claim that Grant was "bad" or "not that important" player. He was their best individual defender and always glued to opponent's best player.

Overall problem is being wrong for 8 years and trying to find any last reasons to spin narrative to not be looked like complete and utter fool. Must be so painful knowing you called 2 times allstar, one of the best nba centers "turd".
Calling bum who can't even be in rotation of bad nba team "more talented" is last nail in coffin. Delusional and biased and full of hate because you can't live with fact and notion you are proven to be dead wrong,despite spitting same hot garbage for 8 years.

[MoMM]

Omg I can't believe some of the trades people are proposing for Vuc. He's just as bad defensively as he is good offensive. He's never going to lead us anywhere.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

Yes, that's why when you see RAPTOR rating he is +0.6 in both sides...

[jonbob17]

Ridicilous claims.
Same league:

Jokic $30M
Embiid 30M
Towns $30M
Drummond 28,5M
Adams 27,5
Gobert 27
Griffin 36,7
Davis 32
Love 31
Zingis 30
Horford 27
Aldrige 24

Vučević was never designed to be backup center, he is one of best nba centers, one of better rebounders and easly top 5 best passing bigs in nba. That's why he is allstar in nba. Where others are not.
Most posts against him have zero ground in reality and are pure hate toward player based on personal bias. Nothing else.
It's flat out ridicilous what some people here claim but it's always nice comedy relief to me. Those are same posters who were drooling over Elfrid Payton.

Grant comment is even more hilarious. Nuggets commited $125M in salary. IF they kept Grant for $20M a year, they would be in crazy luxury tax. HOWEVER same Jeremy Grant was 3rd scorer on Nuggets playoff team last year. Unlike many other teams, Nuggets just have luxury of having Michael Porter Jr as his capable replacment. That does not change fact that they were better team WITH him. For crying out loud, they are 6th seed on west right now with 58% win percentage. Last year they were 3rd seed with 63%.
In reality, Nuggets miss Jeremy Grant more than they miss him. Indeed green light to shoot more makes you average more points, but only fool would claim that Grant was "bad" or "not that important" player. He was their best individual defender and always glued to opponent's best player.

Overall problem is being wrong for 8 years and trying to find any last reasons to spin narrative to not be looked like complete and utter fool. Must be so painful knowing you called 2 times allstar, one of the best nba centers "turd".
Calling bum who can't even be in rotation of bad nba team "more talented" is last nail in coffin. Delusional and biased and full of hate because you can't live with fact and notion you are proven to be dead wrong,despite spitting same hot garbage for 8 years.

Denver did match Jerami Grant's offer from Detroit, he chose to go Detroit over Denver because he wanted a bigger role.

[pepe1991]

Ridicilous claims.
Same league:

Jokic $30M
Embiid 30M
Towns $30M
Drummond 28,5M
Adams 27,5
Gobert 27
Griffin 36,7
Davis 32
Love 31
Zingis 30
Horford 27
Aldrige 24

Vučević was never designed to be backup center, he is one of best nba centers, one of better rebounders and easly top 5 best passing bigs in nba. That's why he is allstar in nba. Where others are not.
Most posts against him have zero ground in reality and are pure hate toward player based on personal bias. Nothing else.
It's flat out ridicilous what some people here claim but it's always nice comedy relief to me. Those are same posters who were drooling over Elfrid Payton.

Grant comment is even more hilarious. Nuggets commited $125M in salary. IF they kept Grant for $20M a year, they would be in crazy luxury tax. HOWEVER same Jeremy Grant was 3rd scorer on Nuggets playoff team last year. Unlike many other teams, Nuggets just have luxury of having Michael Porter Jr as his capable replacment. That does not change fact that they were better team WITH him. For crying out loud, they are 6th seed on west right now with 58% win percentage. Last year they were 3rd seed with 63%.
In reality, Nuggets miss Jeremy Grant more than they miss him. Indeed green light to shoot more makes you average more points, but only fool would claim that Grant was "bad" or "not that important" player. He was their best individual defender and always glued to opponent's best player.

Overall problem is being wrong for 8 years and trying to find any last reasons to spin narrative to not be looked like complete and utter fool. Must be so painful knowing you called 2 times allstar, one of the best nba centers "turd".
Calling bum who can't even be in rotation of bad nba team "more talented" is last nail in coffin. Delusional and biased and full of hate because you can't live with fact and notion you are proven to be dead wrong,despite spitting same hot garbage for 8 years.

Denver did match Jerami Grant's offer from Detroit, he chose to go Detroit over Denver because he wanted a bigger role.

Detroit got him via sign and trade with Nuggets. Nuggets got 9,5M of trade exception and rights to some bum drafted in second round. That's best they could do to not dip into luxury tax.
IN moment he declined his player's option they knew they can't keep him. That trade was asset menagment decision by Nuggets...

[jonbob17]

Detroit got him via sign and trade with Nuggets. Nuggets got 9,5M of trade exception and rights to some bum drafted in second round. That's best they could do to not dip into luxury tax.
IN moment he declined his player's option they knew they can't keep him. That trade was asset menagment decision by Nuggets...

I am not sure what Jerami Grant has to do with any thing but the Nuggets made the same offer the Pistons did, but he declined the Nuggets offer, and chose to sign with Detroit. Now the teams agreed to do a sign and trade after the fact because those things benefit both sides. Denver was either prepared to go into the luxury to keep him or make counter moves to get back under.

https://www.denverpost.com/2020/12/02/pistons-jerami-grant-free-agent-leaving-nuggets/#:~:text=In%20the%20end%2C%20relationships%20and,amount%2C%20according%20to%20a%20source

[ogmagicfan]

Realistically what teams do you think we could move Aaron Gordon & Fournier to?

I would think contenders that are trying to make a push would unload a 1st for them. Thoughts?

[ogmagicfan]

Here’s another idea I’d be down for.

AG & Fournier for Rubio & Beasley

Magic get a 1 year Rental PG who can run an offense and a quality wing. Minny gets the PF they’ve wanted in AG and Bird rights for Fournier

We would have to trade Cole or Fultz for Rubio to have any value, I think he is washed Minny is horrible. Beasley is also a dude this front office would never trade for.

The front office is gonna have to change the mindset cause clearly getting “goodie two shoes” isn’t a winning strategy in the league and hasn’t been working the past 10 years. We need young talent, Malik Beasley is promising. I see no reason to not negotiate on that front.

[ARandomStranger]

This whole roster is just glaringly bad. There are a few players and by a few, I mean maybe three, who are actually worth retaining. This Front Office has been absolutely abysmal in assembling a deep playoff team and it shows from how many times we have ran it back over the last three years. The FO needs a shakeup just as bad as this roster, their vision doesn't work as they take 0 chances, and are absolutely passive when it comes to flipping assets.

[Knightro]

What could Minnesota offer the Magic that would be of interest in a potential Aaron Gordon trade?

Towns, Russell and Edwards are off the table. They already owe a 2021 1st to the Warriors, so the earliest 1st they could trade would be 2023.

Can't imagine the Magic would really want Rubio at $17.8M for next year.

Would the Wolves do something centered around Beasley?

They have a ton of young guys, six guys aged 22 or younger, but they've all looked pretty bad this year so I don't know which ones, if any, that the Magic would be interested in.

[zaymon]

What could Minnesota offer the Magic that would be of interest in a potential Aaron Gordon trade?

Towns, Russell and Edwards are off the table. They already owe a 2021 1st to the Warriors, so the earliest 1st they could trade would be 2023.

Can't imagine the Magic would really want Rubio at $17.8M for next year.

Would the Wolves do something centered around Beasley?

They have a ton of young guys, six guys aged 22 or younger, but they've all looked pretty bad this year so I don't know which ones, if any, that the Magic would be interested in.

I dont think we want Rubio or Beasley. There would have to be a third team involved. Best place for Rubio is Chicago imo. Beasley is a head case and cant really get to the rim. Okogie and Culver are pretty good defenders but i dont think they hold much value. Wolves need to get creative if they want Gordon.

[Bensational]

ORL: Culver + Nesmith
MIN: Gordon
BOS: Rubio

I’m just thinking Boston might want a PG who can facilitate their offense more than Kemba is. Nesmith is a fairly small price to pay.

We get a couple young wings and some light cap relief.

Vuc/Birch/Bamba
Aminu/Chuma/(Isaac)
Ennis/Bacon/Culver
Fournier/Ross/Nesmith
MCW/(Cole)/(Fultz)